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30th December 2012, 08:24 PM | #201 |
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30th December 2012, 08:26 PM | #202 |
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I have no idea what you're trying to say, but I'm still pretty sure that you're wrong. -Akhenaten I sometimes think the Bible was inspired by Satan to make God look bad. And then it backfired on Him when He underestimated the stupidity of religious ideologues. -MontagK505 |
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30th December 2012, 08:32 PM | #203 |
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1. He'd never do that. 2. Okay but he's not currently doing it. 3. Okay but he's not currently technically doing it. 4. Okay but everyone does it. 5. He's doing it, we can't stop him, no point in complaining about it. 6. We all knew he was going to do it which... makes it okay somehow. 7. It's perfectly fine that's he's doing it. |
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30th December 2012, 08:40 PM | #204 |
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I have no idea what you're trying to say, but I'm still pretty sure that you're wrong. -Akhenaten I sometimes think the Bible was inspired by Satan to make God look bad. And then it backfired on Him when He underestimated the stupidity of religious ideologues. -MontagK505 |
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30th December 2012, 08:42 PM | #205 |
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1. He'd never do that. 2. Okay but he's not currently doing it. 3. Okay but he's not currently technically doing it. 4. Okay but everyone does it. 5. He's doing it, we can't stop him, no point in complaining about it. 6. We all knew he was going to do it which... makes it okay somehow. 7. It's perfectly fine that's he's doing it. |
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30th December 2012, 08:48 PM | #206 |
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I have no idea what you're trying to say, but I'm still pretty sure that you're wrong. -Akhenaten I sometimes think the Bible was inspired by Satan to make God look bad. And then it backfired on Him when He underestimated the stupidity of religious ideologues. -MontagK505 |
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30th December 2012, 08:49 PM | #207 |
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Looks like the one on top has a magazine, thus needs less reloading. Also, the muzzle shroud makes it less likely for a spree killer to burn his hands. The pistol grip makes it more comfortable for the spree killer to shoot. thaiboxerken |
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30th December 2012, 08:50 PM | #208 |
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So when that claim is made, it's just hyperbole?
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1. He'd never do that. 2. Okay but he's not currently doing it. 3. Okay but he's not currently technically doing it. 4. Okay but everyone does it. 5. He's doing it, we can't stop him, no point in complaining about it. 6. We all knew he was going to do it which... makes it okay somehow. 7. It's perfectly fine that's he's doing it. |
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30th December 2012, 08:57 PM | #209 |
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Looks like the one on top has a magazine, thus needs less reloading. Also, the muzzle shroud makes it less likely for a spree killer to burn his hands. The pistol grip makes it more comfortable for the spree killer to shoot. thaiboxerken |
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30th December 2012, 09:05 PM | #210 |
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30th December 2012, 09:34 PM | #211 |
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I have no idea what you're trying to say, but I'm still pretty sure that you're wrong. -Akhenaten I sometimes think the Bible was inspired by Satan to make God look bad. And then it backfired on Him when He underestimated the stupidity of religious ideologues. -MontagK505 |
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30th December 2012, 10:33 PM | #212 |
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So basically you guys agree that you life would not change appreciably, except for Tri's terminal boredom.
It's not a clown question. Guns are simply not necessary to your standard of living. And for this not-necessary thing people must die. Unlucky people...people you don't know...little people...people who matter less than your hobby. So yeah, enlightening...thanks for playing. -z |
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30th December 2012, 10:45 PM | #213 |
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I never said you would be denied anything. I simply asked how your life would change if you no longer owned one. It's a fairly simple question. It would be pretty easy to answer too if you could disassociate your emotions and no longer equate your American identity with the possession of a thing.
That's the crux of the problem as I see it. The weapon has become important to folks such as your good self in ways that, before the Newtown tragedy, I just never grasped. It has elements of nationalism, it lends power, it brings comfort, it makes one more of a "man". It's a security blanket, an American totem, and a quasi sexual/religious symbol. I think I understand now, because I just threw up a little in my throat... -z |
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30th December 2012, 10:48 PM | #214 |
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Pretty good paraphrase of a fellow I read about once. Went by the name of Thomas Gage. General for some army or another...
If you honestly think that yanking such a basic, fundamental, and long-standing civil right would have no effect on our standard of living, then you go right ahead and run with that notion. I'm curious to see where you wind up. |
30th December 2012, 10:50 PM | #215 |
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It's pretty clear to me that we will never be rid of these things. So you guys have convinced me. If the government ever did clamp down we'd be inundated with scenes of Waco and Ruby Ridge every day...
Somehow I think we're heading that way no matter what course we choose. I guess I better go get mine as well...once I have a closet full of iron, I'm sure to feel better about all this eh? -z |
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30th December 2012, 10:58 PM | #216 |
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Been that way in this country for over 200 years... society is still thriving... perfect, no, but you know what they say about Utopia.
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30th December 2012, 11:41 PM | #217 |
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yeah, it's why they built the Matrix to dish out misery...humans are a virus and Utopia is not only unattainable, it's ultimately undesireable.
so say the machines... |
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30th December 2012, 11:56 PM | #218 |
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Remember kids, only politicians have a legitimate need to have a gun and/or 24/7/365 armed bodyguards.
The rest of you have 911 and when seconds count the police are only minutes away. |
31st December 2012, 04:54 AM | #219 |
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31st December 2012, 05:03 AM | #220 |
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31st December 2012, 05:09 AM | #221 |
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I don't know.
I have an acquaintance who voiced the dilemma he would face to me a couple weeks ago. He said he'd always been a law abiding citizen throughout his entire adult life. Always tries to do things "by the book", and proud of that fact. He said it would be an agonizing choice, but he would "cross over" and join the criminal ranks rather than surrender, or even register, his guns. Believe me, he's not alone. Civil disobedience is not a new concept, and the level of it in the face of some of the laws proposed would be massive. |
31st December 2012, 05:11 AM | #222 |
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Weaver and his sort would be an even greater threat to civilization if people like me did not have guns. All they would have to worry about would be the army. As it is, they would have to worry about me and my determination that they should never control a foot of territory near me. On top of that, they would have to worry about my ability to equip a good squad or two of the neighbors.
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31st December 2012, 05:16 AM | #223 |
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If the new laws were on the lines that most of us here who own guns have put forward, yes. The whackadoodle militias and gangs and assorted other misfits and malcontents would continue not even to obey the ones that exist.
The advantage, of course, is that such people could then be rounded up and disarmed and or incarcerated or sent off for psyciatric help as appropriate if found to be armed illegally. Additionally, most of us would agree to a code that would require anyone who owns a weapon to be trained and tested. Just the training and testing would greatly reduce some of the friendly fire and Darwin Award-related deaths. |
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31st December 2012, 05:19 AM | #224 |
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What about selling his guns via a dealer so checks can be made he is selling to a suitable person?
I understand the resistance to surrendering or registering all guns makes such very unlikely. So I have been arguing that drying up the supply of guns to nuts and criminals is the answer, and checks for all trades is needed or else you go to prison for a very long time. I cannot see how lawful gun owners could object to measures specifically targeting keeping guns away from unsuitable people. |
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31st December 2012, 05:22 AM | #225 |
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Originally Posted by rikzilla
I would pose this question to the gun "enthusiasts" on the board; "How, or in what ways would your life change if you no longer owned a weapon?" I would be deprived of a hobby that I enjoy, but I could live with that. I was born a Jew. Grew up with images of the holocaust. Including families meekly lining up along ditches to be machine gunned. Was reminded of that again a few nights ago revisiting a movie called "The Chosen". If our gov't ever took a turn for the worst, I literally cherish having the option of not going to a camp or a shower or a ditch without a fight. Take away that option, and then our individual fates are at the whim of others, who may or may not have benevolent motives. I would rather fight and die, if even in a lost cause, than be executed. Before I'm labeled paranoid, I think the chances of a malevolent gov't arising in this country that leads to a new holocaust is very small. But to study human history and human nature leads me to the conclusion that it is non-zero and worth at least contemplating. |
31st December 2012, 05:29 AM | #226 |
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A "good" tool? A "good" tool for what? If it's for recreation purposes then it's not a tool, it's a toy. I'm struck by the qualifying adjective and would ask what a "bad" tool is other than one that's being misused or misapplied.
Shooting people is not a misuse of a gun, whether that be a criminal act or not. Firearms are designed to propel projectives towards a target. The target in question is a matter of choice. |
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31st December 2012, 05:32 AM | #227 |
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I think the fear is as to who will control the list of "unsuitable people".
I believe Diane Feinstein, et al have good intentions. I would not, however, want them compiling the criteria for "unsuitable people", which at some point could include all sorts of undesirable, eventually including a class that might include me and thee. My ex-wife thought the Nazi's should not have been allowed to march in Skokie. That certain groups do not deserve the right to free speech. My question to her was, "Who makes up the list of who is entitled to speak freely?" and she would flippantly say, "I will!" As said before so eloquently, it's not called the "Bill of Needs" or the "Bill of Wants". It's the Bill of RIGHTS, and like speech and all the other rights enumerated, should not be infringed at the whim of the legislature, no matter their intentions. |
31st December 2012, 05:36 AM | #228 |
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The UK is safe from tyranny. The politicians have a fine tradition of standing up to tyranny, evidence two world wars from beginning to end. Most recently the government has been supporting the Arab Uprisings. We have an armed force made up of people who correctly take great pride in also standing up to tyranny, presently still fighting in Afghanistan against the Taliban. Our police force is independent and non political and would never join with any party or person to support any tyranny.
If only the USA government had a history of standing up to tyranny in World Wars, supported the Arabs fighting against tyranny, its army took pride in standing up to tyranny and was fighting against it elsewhere in the world and there was an independent non political police force would have no party allegiance. But wait, the USA has all of those things. Yes, you must be paranoid. |
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31st December 2012, 05:41 AM | #229 |
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Unsuitable people, criminals are easy to identify. In the UK we do bother about most road traffic offences nor minor offences committed as a juvenile.
Nuts are harder, but in the UK we deal with that by the police meeting all applicants and them having to provide referees. That has weeded out many idiots who should not have a gun. You missed my question before, would your friend object to selling via a dealer or similar so checks can be done on the buyer? Those checks would be first is the buyer already a gun owner who has been subject to checks? If so the deal can go through quickly. Or is the buyer unknown, in which case it will take a while. |
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31st December 2012, 05:43 AM | #230 |
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Interesting point, Nessie.
Where in the USA's history has it had an internal tyrannical government whereby the population were required to take arms against it? Being abducted by aliens would be a bad thing, however I feel no need to take measures to prevent this from happening to me. |
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31st December 2012, 06:05 AM | #231 |
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The USA's government and military have a fine tradition of standing up to tyranny. Indeed during the Cold War the USA was the one country in the world which was still able to stand up to tyranny, the British having exhausted themselves during the standing up to the previous tyranny.
The US police and justice system have a fine tradition of following the rule of law and to ask them to stop that would be to ask them to do a complete volt face. Yet, despite all of that history, some Americans reject their history and country's principles by claiming they are in danger from tyranny to such an extent they need to arm themselves. I think those Americans need to be able to explain in great detail why they insult their politicians, military, police and justice systems by saying I have so little faith in you I need a gun to protect myself from you. |
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31st December 2012, 06:05 AM | #232 |
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First, my friend is not concerned that his selling of weapons will make him a criminal. He's concerned that the reclassification of certain weapons already lawfully owned will turn him overnight into a criminal.
As far as the UK being safe from tyranny, I'd stipulate to that, and the US as well, as of now. If you are saying it or the US will be forever safe from tyranny, I'd say that's a reach. Think of how Jewish German doctors and professors and intellectuals must have felt in the 1920's and 1930's. Probably felt similarly - we're a cultured, sensitive, intelligent country. Our leaders are elected. There are checks and balances. Wear a Star of David? You must be joking. You're not? Well, OK. And so on, right into the showers. A chilling scene plays out in Schindler's List (the book, not the movie) where townspeople are called to the synagogue and young Geman soldiers order them to urinate on the Torah. The same, "You're joking" sentiment fom the elders, until they realize how deadly serious they are - literally. Of course, we'd never get to the point of putting America citizens in camps for their ethnicity. Would we? |
31st December 2012, 06:06 AM | #233 |
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31st December 2012, 06:19 AM | #234 |
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A massive segue, but I can't image you are asserting that if Germans were as well armed in the 30s as Americans are today that the Holocaust would never have happened. That's a massive logical leap.
I'm not sure the number of accidental gun deaths alone don't make the premium for insuring America against it's own elected officials throwing them into camps isn't a little too high. But that's been argued to death and neither flank will move on the back of a slightly strangled analogy. Still intrigued as to the phrase "good tool", mind. |
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31st December 2012, 07:09 AM | #235 |
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I've recommended some books about the part armed resistance played in the Warsaw Ghetto (The Wall by John Hersey) and in Poland (The Avengers - A Jewish War Story by Rick Cohen).
The armed insurrection in the Warsaw ghetto ultimately failed, but I believe Hitler needed far more troops to liquidate it than he had planned - troops that were sorely needed on the eastern front. We (the US) aided them in some small way by dropping "Liberator" .45 pistols to them to give them some means of armed resistance. - necessary because the ghetto had been pretty effectively disarmed ahead of the liquidation. It may have helped in some small way win the war for the Allies - maybe there's a Hardcore History episode in there somewhere. The Holocaust would almost certainly have happened regardless. But imagine if, one average, one in every ten Jews exterminated had managed to take one German soldier with him when they came door-to-door. Hard not to see that an additional 600,000 dead German soldiers might not have helped bring a quicker end to the war. The word "paranoid" gets tossed around a lot. My wife think I may have offended a friend when I asked at what point his line of thinking* became paranoid. I did not call him paranoid, but couched it as above. But I guess its a rare paranoid that labels himself paranoid! *He thinks Bernanke et al are a money and power seeking cabal, ready to use UN Treaties to disarm and enslave the American people., as part of a New World Order. It then sorta swerved into a leader arising in the east that started to sound like the anti-Christ. |
31st December 2012, 07:12 AM | #236 |
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Would your friend refuse to obey a law that mean all sales had to go via a dealer or other thrid party who does background checks?
Quote:
Quote:
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31st December 2012, 08:25 AM | #237 |
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I really don't mean to insult them - great sacrifices have been made fighting tyranny, and I applaud them for that.
I'll say the past informs the future, but does not guarantee it. Is it totally inconceivable* that any country could lapse into tyranny? Imagine its 2075. England has a Muslim majority and the Muslim Brotherhood has steadily risen in popularity and influence and a Muslim Brotherhood Prime Minister is elected. Who then begins to act as Morsi did in Egypt recently. Maybe that IS impossible. Maybe there's something in the British (or American) character that sets them apart from such eventualities. Just color me skeptical. And again, I'm not saying that any of this is likely or probable - only possible. *I have to be reminded of The Princess Bride here! |
31st December 2012, 08:30 AM | #238 |
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31st December 2012, 09:06 AM | #239 |
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Sorry, but that just shows how much you have to fantasise to create a situation where the UK or USA lapses into tyranny where only the civilian gun owners are the ones who will stand up to it.
What you are claiming is that tyranny has a chance of success such that it will get a grip of the government, military, police, the criminal justice system and leave only the civilian gun owners immune from its grip and left to fight against it. Sorry, but that sounds like a script for Hollywood and it has no basis to be a reason to heavily arm the civilian population. I see you keep referring back to Germany. Ironically it is a country that has learned from its past and tyranny has no chance of getting a grip of it again as the Germans, from the government to the military to the police to the people would not let it happen. One country that is an example of not yet learning its lesson and still being prone to tyranny is Russia. |
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31st December 2012, 09:30 AM | #240 |
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Anti-gun premise #342: Civilians don't stand a chance against a tyrannical government.
Rebuttal: Speaking of Hollywood, it seems like a gross oversimplification of what has happened in the past, and what is sure to happen in the future. The government is made up of citizens. They aren't automatons. They have family and friends in this country. Should the government want to increase its power, it would still want people to rule. Conversely, the "gun from my cold dead hands" folks aren't living on an island separated from the general population. The government can't just drop a nuke in some remote forest in Colorado and be done with it. Google "Oath Keepers". There is a contingency within the military and civilian police who refuse to follow orders in direct conflict of our Constitution. Keep in mind, this is just the most vocal and willing to "put themselves out there". |
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