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31st December 2012, 09:33 AM | #241 |
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I'll just fall back on a maxim I learned from the financial world...
..."It's NEVER different this time!" |
31st December 2012, 09:38 AM | #242 |
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Well, I guess that's my claim.
Did the German military, police and criminal justice system effectively stand up to Hitler? I know an attempt was made on his life, but everyone ended up pretty much going along with the tyranny once it got rolling. And the French police often aided and abetted the Nazis in Occupied France. The key word in my quote above is "chance" - and to repeat, that's all I'm saying. - these things have happened repeatedly and with regularity over recorded history, and I think its naive to think "It can't happen here!" (credit - Frank Zappa) |
31st December 2012, 09:45 AM | #243 |
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Conspiracy theories aside, it appears that gun lovers are ready to stop being "law abiding" gun lovers at the slightest drop of a hat. If that's true, and they are only law abiding so long as the law suits them, then that's hardly an endorsement of their fitness to brandish weapons. They are certainly not the sort of people I want having concealed weapons permits or walking around with rifles on shoulder straps in "open carry" states.
This guy was seen walking around just days after Newtown.
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31st December 2012, 09:47 AM | #244 |
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31st December 2012, 09:49 AM | #245 |
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Oh Unaboogie. Trying to nail down all your premises was a chore, and the main reason I started doing it. For you:
Unaboogie Premises: a. Fear of guns means there’s a gun problem in America b. Bushmaster is the weapon of choice for murder rampages c. “Sick to death of guns” d. The “most deadly weapons” need to be removed from society e. Limits need to be placed on gun shows f. Home ownership of guns should come with strict responsibilities g. Move towards the goal of no one having guns h. Supposedly responsible gun owners use their self-defense right to harm others i. Gun hobby a huge waste of money j. Make gun ownership illegal to stop people from enjoying it k. Gun owners love their guns l. Ban all guns m. Proposed AWB is a “good start” (2. #4) n. Gun enthusiasts are paranoid and crazy (2. #4, #55) o. Banning guns works elsewhere (2. #45) p. Gun enthusiasts have an unhealthy emotional attachment to their guns (2. #56) q. License guns like cars, yearly safety checks, gun tax (2. #92) r. No one needs large amount (#?) of guns (2. #94) s. “Collections” = Arsenal (2. #94) t. Anyone under 18 should not be allowed to shoot (2. #105) u. Gun owners are ticking time bombs v. Criminal gun use costs massive amounts of money (2. #115) w. Guns are nothing but a blight (2. #144) Misperceptions: a. Easy for a felon to get his gun rights reinstated b. Fireman shooter was able to get his firearm rights restored c. Semi-autos are better at “spray and pray” d. There is no extra gun tax e. There are no controls to remove already owned firearms and licenses f. There are not enough controls g. There are no consequences for irresponsible gun handling Which would you like to go over first? |
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31st December 2012, 09:52 AM | #246 |
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31st December 2012, 09:59 AM | #247 |
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Sorry, excuse me?
So they aren't Christian, just extremist? http://www.lvrj.com/news/oath-keeper...-64690232.html You find these people normal? |
31st December 2012, 10:01 AM | #248 |
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The fact that you can't even spell my name right leads me to believe your misinterpretations of my positions won't fare any better. How about you stop this nonsense and respond to something specific instead of snipping words out of context?
And try and get my name right. That's a good start. |
31st December 2012, 10:11 AM | #249 |
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anti-logic argument #1: you made a typing mistake, therefore you're wrong.
I want to understand your viewpoint. Please provide the premise I am misrepresenting. Maybe if we can nail down one or two without Gish galloping all around we can get somewhere. I did try to cite the source and post number after a while, but I got tired of doing that for all the rehashed arguments (from everyone, not just you). However, I will be happy to provide the source for your premises if you need me to. The 2. is for this thread, numbers are obviously the post numbers. |
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31st December 2012, 10:17 AM | #250 |
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That was not my premise. My premise is that in the USA there will never be a situation where the gun owning civilians are the only ones left standing up to a tyrannical government. Anyone who wants to try and set up a tyranny in the USA will also face a fight by politicians, the military, the police, the criminal justice system. A far more likely scenario is another civil war where the pro-tyranny side spilt with the anti from politicians down to gun owning civilians, some who may favour the tyrannical government and its policies.
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31st December 2012, 10:26 AM | #251 |
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So the USA has insufficient checks and balances and not enough decent people in its government, military, police and justice system to prevent it from going rogue?
The only guarantee is allowing some of its citizens to arm themselves on an ad hoc voluntary basis?! Did you know that consistently in surveys of gun owners, they are found to be a majority Republican? Maybe if a tyranny was to be set up if it was a Republican one, a majority of the civilian gun owners would end up supporting it? |
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31st December 2012, 10:42 AM | #252 |
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I was just pointing out how little reading you're doing as opposed to posting.
If you really want to understand my viewpoint, pick one of my posts, quote it, and ask me a question about it. I'll be happy to answer when I have time, and if you make a good point I'll make sure to credit it. Snipping my posts into an abbreviated list isn't a good way to have a conversation. Do you do that when you talk with people, too? |
31st December 2012, 11:04 AM | #253 |
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We got more wiggling going on here than at an Elvis convention. I gave you all your premises stated over (now 5) threads. We can certainly get started if you want to list the first one I am misrepresenting.
Your new premise: shawmutt is posting more than he is reading rebuttal: I've painstakingly read every post on the (now 5) gun threads, as evidenced by my listing of every premise you've made. |
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31st December 2012, 11:06 AM | #254 |
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If you really want to understand my viewpoint, pick one of my posts, quote it, and ask me a question about it. I'll be happy to answer when I have time, and if you make a good point I'll make sure to credit it. Snipping my posts into an abbreviated list isn't a good way to have a conversation. Do you do that when you talk with people, too?
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31st December 2012, 11:08 AM | #255 |
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31st December 2012, 11:15 AM | #256 |
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Boy, "never" is a long time!
Reminds me of this, on another topic but relevant: Clarke's First Law: "When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong." |
31st December 2012, 11:25 AM | #257 |
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Let's put it this way. If the USA is in that situation, your toy guns won't be much help.
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1. He'd never do that. 2. Okay but he's not currently doing it. 3. Okay but he's not currently technically doing it. 4. Okay but everyone does it. 5. He's doing it, we can't stop him, no point in complaining about it. 6. We all knew he was going to do it which... makes it okay somehow. 7. It's perfectly fine that's he's doing it. |
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31st December 2012, 11:32 AM | #258 |
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Anti-gun premise #342 (I seriously need to start a real list): Civilians don't stand a chance against a tyrannical government.
Rebuttal: Speaking of Hollywood, it seems like a gross oversimplification of what has happened in the past, and what is sure to happen in the future. The government is made up of citizens. They aren't automatons. They have family and friends in this country. Should the government want to increase its power, it would still want people to rule. Conversely, the "gun from my cold dead hands" folks aren't living on an island separated from the general population. The government can't just drop a nuke in some remote forest in Colorado and be done with it. Google "Oath Keepers". There is a contingency within the military and civilian police who refuse to follow orders in direct conflict of our Constitution. Keep in mind, this is just the most vocal and willing to "put themselves out there". |
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31st December 2012, 12:17 PM | #259 |
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31st December 2012, 12:25 PM | #260 |
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http://www.lvrj.com/news/oath-keeper...-64690232.html
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31st December 2012, 12:27 PM | #261 |
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Can you example a successful defeat of tyranny by armed civilians alone, fighting against the country's government, police, army and criminal justice system?
An actual study finds such situations do not exist and what really happens is protests or a civil war to one extent or another where the various parts, government, military, police faction either against each other or within themselves and part joins with the civilians. You have also failed to take into account my point that some or even a majority of gun owners may find themselves supporting the tyranny. That is the reality of tyranny. |
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31st December 2012, 12:28 PM | #262 |
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31st December 2012, 12:29 PM | #263 |
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31st December 2012, 12:59 PM | #264 |
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The Colonial civilians were no where near as effective as the French professional mercenaries hired to fight the British. Indeed the British used German mercenaries in the War. In any case, the American Colonial Government was also fighting for Independence and it was not the armed civilians acting on their own. Furthermore many colonists fought with the British and left after Independence was gained. So some of your armed citizens fought for the 'wrong' side.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british...coats_01.shtml I think that the idea of a civilian militia over throwing a tyranny may well have come from a fantasy ideal of the American War of Independence. I take it you have seen the Mel Gibson film 'The Patriot'? He did the same with us and 'Braveheart' |
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31st December 2012, 01:07 PM | #265 |
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And now the historical posturing begins.
Stick to a subject, please, anti-gunners. That will greatly increase your odds of educating yourselves sufficiently to make a cogent point. I recommend you begin with proposing new legislation and backing it up with reasoning. Some of you are doing this, and doing reasonably well... Others are just filling the board with nonsense. |
31st December 2012, 01:09 PM | #266 |
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31st December 2012, 02:04 PM | #267 |
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I Googled the Oath Keepers, and some of their own quotes came up. What, you cite them as an example of rational gun ownership but you don't want to be responsible for defending them?
They are nuts. They are paranoid, right wing, nuts. You disagree? You don't think they are crazy whacktards? Interesting (*writes in notebook*)! |
31st December 2012, 03:30 PM | #268 |
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31st December 2012, 03:33 PM | #269 |
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31st December 2012, 03:40 PM | #270 |
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31st December 2012, 03:54 PM | #271 |
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31st December 2012, 04:12 PM | #272 |
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I don't think you understand what the word "premise" means. It's not a synonym for "posts". But I digress.
You brought up the Oath Keepers, not me, didn't you? And then you tried to say that calling the Oath Keepers, who the SPLC considers a hate group, "nuts" was wrong since they are just a bunch of patriots intent on defending their strange interpretation of the Constitution. They, the Oath Keepers, consider President Obama to be like Hitler. They also claim to be defending against UN troops on American soil. I do not consider that sane or rational. You apparently do. If you do, then we can make some conclusions about your ability to approach issues like gun control and your general mental health. I'm glad you brought them up, since pointing out how many of you "gun enthusiasts" subscribe to these bizarre fringe ideologies is a very good argument for gun control. |
31st December 2012, 04:21 PM | #273 |
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When pretty much every one of your posts starts a new premise, it might as well be synonymous. You seem to have a hard time staying on just one or two.
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Care to address any of your stated premises from before or would you like to posit yet another? You have made four posts about the same thing, is it time to move on yet? |
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31st December 2012, 04:30 PM | #274 |
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And yet further down you accuse me of spending four posts on the same "premise". Again, you're not only inconsistent, but you keep misusing that word and I won't reward you for it.
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I'll start. Do you agree with the Oath Keepers that President Obama is like Hitler? |
31st December 2012, 04:38 PM | #275 |
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31st December 2012, 04:39 PM | #276 |
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1. He'd never do that. 2. Okay but he's not currently doing it. 3. Okay but he's not currently technically doing it. 4. Okay but everyone does it. 5. He's doing it, we can't stop him, no point in complaining about it. 6. We all knew he was going to do it which... makes it okay somehow. 7. It's perfectly fine that's he's doing it. |
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31st December 2012, 04:42 PM | #277 |
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31st December 2012, 04:45 PM | #278 |
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When did I claim this? I think you're engaging in straw man arguments. By the way, what do you think the Oath Keepers mean when they say Obama is like Hitler? And since you disagree with them on that, in what areas do you agree with them that made you use them as a good example of a citizen militia fighting the tyrannical feds?
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31st December 2012, 06:07 PM | #279 |
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1. He'd never do that. 2. Okay but he's not currently doing it. 3. Okay but he's not currently technically doing it. 4. Okay but everyone does it. 5. He's doing it, we can't stop him, no point in complaining about it. 6. We all knew he was going to do it which... makes it okay somehow. 7. It's perfectly fine that's he's doing it. |
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31st December 2012, 06:10 PM | #280 |
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