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View Poll Results: Are you willing to work for free if the goods and services are free?
Yes 17 35.42%
No 22 45.83%
I don't know 9 18.75%
Voters: 48. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 17th May 2020, 11:29 AM   #1161
Gaetan
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Do you think they paid out of their own pockets for years of education and now work for free?

People are motivated both by altruism and by personal gain. They want to help others but they also want to help themselves and their families.

You want a world where everyone only behaves altruistically. That's not how human work. How do you intend to change human nature?
Your own gain is that the whole society performe. You do something for your neighbour and he does the same for you, that's where is your own gain.
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Old 17th May 2020, 01:30 PM   #1162
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Your own gain is that the whole society performe. You do something for your neighbour and he does the same for you, that's where is your own gain.
Sure. "For your neighbour." What about for some stranger halfway around the world in a country you'll never even visit?

That's altruism. It works pretty well in the small village-sized family bands which humans evolved in. We instinctively help relatives who share some of our DNA, because natural selection favoured that behaviour. It's less effective for people we're not related to, but it still works up to a point so long as we believe in and expect some mutual benefit, or happen to get a kick out of helping people, and so long as we don't see the strangers we're helping as an out-group or as enemies.

Your plan requires that sense of altruism to be strong enough to keep the whole of society running. You're going to get good work out of the keen individuals who get a buzz out of helping everyone, but you're going to get a lot less out of everyone else who's just a bit lazier, or more selfish or more xenophobic or just doesn't like their job very much.

In a small village, everyone knows everyone else's business so everyone knows if you're not pulling your weight and that social pressure can make people try harder. In a big anonymous city, there's no such social pressure. You don't even know what job some of your neighbours do.

Can you give us an example of what you think is the largest social group which ever thrived on pure altruism? (And of course I mean humans, not ants or bees.)
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Old 17th May 2020, 05:24 PM   #1163
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Your motivation to work is to have free stuff and services, to be in a better situation.
So, in your system, if you don't work, you don't get stuff and services and can't raise your status to be in a better situation. How is that any different from the money system that exists today? Right now, I work to have money to buy stuff and pay for services and so I can save and earn a better situation for myself. If I don't work, I won't have money to buy stuff or pay for services or save to earn a better situation for myself. You've cut out the money part, but the end result is the same. If the end result is the same, why would I want to put up with all of the other negative aspects of your no money system?

Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Your own gain is that the whole society performe. You do something for your neighbour and he does the same for you, that's where is your own gain.
There's currently a pandemic that is posing an immediate and direct threat to the entire world, and yet, in many areas, it's a struggle to get people to wear masks that will protect both themselves and their neighbors. If we can't get people to be selfless enough to wear a simple mask, what makes you think people will be selfless enough to make larger sacrifices for the greater good?
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Old 18th May 2020, 07:28 AM   #1164
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Your own gain is that the whole society performe. You do something for your neighbour and he does the same for you, that's where is your own gain.
Sorry, let's say I did 4 hours of labor for my neighbor and he does 1 for me. I didn't gain, I lost. Even without currency, time and effort expended still exist.
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Old 18th May 2020, 09:07 AM   #1165
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Originally Posted by Tomboy View Post
If the end result is the same, why would I want to put up with all of the other negative positive aspects of your no money system?
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Old 18th May 2020, 10:06 AM   #1166
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Okay, let's consider those positive aspects.

In your proposed system, the most obvious positive for an individual is that they can get stuff they previously couldn't afford. Right? They just take it.

So you have a world population which is now taking a greater value of stuff than they were previously able. Everyone, well almost everyone, is taking more out than they were before.

Who's putting more in?

Nobody that I can see. Sure, some people will continue to make a full contribution, inspired by revolutionary zeal, but others will slip a little, or a lot, without the motivation of greater reward for greater effort.

So you've invented a world economy where workers put less in but take more out. What do you suppose will happen?
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Old 18th May 2020, 10:34 AM   #1167
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
So you've invented a world economy where workers put less in but take more out. What do you suppose will happen?
You don't get it. Since nothing has a monetary value, nobody is putting in more or taking our more as all goods are equally as valuable.

Yeah, I know, it's a fantasy. Once I tried to explain to him this as a function of time, but that was ignored since facts counter to his delusion are ignored.
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Old 18th May 2020, 11:06 AM   #1168
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
No, I meant what I said. You obviously see your system as being full of positives, but I see quite a few negative aspects that would make your proposed society one in which I have no desire to join.

Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
This is detail that has to be solve by the vote of the community.
This, for example. I pride myself on my self sufficiency and independence. Why would I want to have to rely on what is sure to amount to a popularity competition in order have a chance at obtaining items or services that I require or desire?

Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Owners of buildings rent their offices or apartments to make money, if we get rid of money it would be useless to own them, then the renter should be the owners and take care of their apartment as some kind of condominiums.
Here's another example of what I'd consider a negative. I currently live in a condominium townhouse. I own the interior, but not the land on which the house sits or the exterior of the house. I pay a reasonable monthly fee and am not responsible for maintaining the land or the exterior of my house. At this point in my life, I like this arrangement, but I don't see how this would work in a moneyless society. Making me the owner of my home and responsible for all of the maintenance is a negative for me.

Those are just two examples from the past few pages, but there are many more negative aspects of your system; far more negatives than positives, many of which have been clearly spelled out and detailed, but none of which you've been able to address in a logical manner.
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Old 18th May 2020, 01:05 PM   #1169
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Originally Posted by Tomboy View Post
Here's another example of what I'd consider a negative. I currently live in a condominium townhouse. I own the interior, but not the land on which the house sits or the exterior of the house. I pay a reasonable monthly fee and am not responsible for maintaining the land or the exterior of my house. At this point in my life, I like this arrangement, but I don't see how this would work in a moneyless society. Making me the owner of my home and responsible for all of the maintenance is a negative for me.
Why, don't you know, you just call down to the employment center and they will dispatch skilled and vetted tradespeople who will maintain your condo for free. And not some random Joe with a hammer and YouTube tutorials. Best not to ask any questions.
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Old 18th May 2020, 01:06 PM   #1170
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Yet another thing that never gets addressed, why is this labor just sitting down in the labor hall waiting for their assignments. Seems extra-ordinarily wasteful. But here we are.
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Old 18th May 2020, 04:03 PM   #1171
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You must have investment in the capitalism system to have people work, in the free system you don't have to. How many people will run bankroute after this Covid-19. How can be investment in countries where money have little value, but off course you trolls don't worry about misery except your own business.
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Old 18th May 2020, 05:00 PM   #1172
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
You must have investment in the capitalism system to have people work, in the free system you don't have to. How many people will run bankroute after this Covid-19. How can be investment in countries where money have little value, but off course you trolls don't worry about misery except your own business.
You need investment in any system to have people work, a no money system doesn't mean no requirement of investment. You needs facilities, equipment, materials, energy and even time and labor to set all that up. That's before you even start having people work on what you actually want them to work on. None of that goes away just because there is no monetary system. It just makes such things and investments harder to value and exchange. You don't worry about that because all you care about is your fantasies.
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Old 18th May 2020, 05:41 PM   #1173
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Originally Posted by The Man View Post
You need investment in any system to have people work, a no money system doesn't mean no requirement of investment. You needs facilities, equipment, materials, energy and even time and labor to set all that up. That's before you even start having people work on what you actually want them to work on. None of that goes away just because there is no monetary system. It just makes such things and investments harder to value and exchange. You don't worry about that because all you care about is your fantasies.
In the system of no money all you need is to work in a system of money you need money to have people work because people need money to pay their stuff they can't work for free they need money. When in the system of no money everything if free of charge, OK troll. I notice that people who voted yes don't spend time to discuss with trolls.

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Old 18th May 2020, 06:20 PM   #1174
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What I keep seeing here is an idea that could work, perhaps, in a stone age society. It probably did, pretty much.

But when things get technologically advanced, it's a little harder to figure out. Think of something simple, like calling the tree service to come take down a tree in your yard that threatens to squash your house. I can call the guys and they'll come and charge a reasonable fee to do the work they're good at. They can do this, because they do it for a lot of people all year, and someone, a boss no doubt, invested a great deal of money in equipment. The bucket truck cost hundreds of thousands of dollars, and it was made far away, out of parts from all over the world. The chain saws were made in Japan and Germany, also out of a myriad of parts from all over the world, and they ended up here in the hands of fairly ordinary (though well trained and hard working) people.

So where do the tree men get their machinery in this new system? Do they just go to the bucket-truck store and say "hey, I like that green one there?" Who runs the store, and where does he get the trucks from? Who ships them? Who makes them? I need a chain for the saw. Who has it, where did it come from, how did it get here? Why don't I just pick up 20 chains today, save some time. After all, they don't cost anything. Oh, someone else took all the chains yesterday to fence out the woodchucks? Too bad. Tell you what, next time I order I'll get a thousand chains from the distributor. After all, they don't cost anything. Every supply store should buy a thousand chains at a time.

Things like this occur over and over. Our complicated lives are intertwined with many other complicated lives, all over the world. Everything we do about anything is likely to have repercussions far and wide, on people whose existence we can only imagine.

It would be nice if we could find a way to make money less intrusive and distribute it more fairly, but there's a reason why it exists. It keeps things moving at a certain rate, based on need and value as well as supply and demand. Moderation and altruism are fine for a tribe in Greenland or the Amazon, where everyone shares the fate of everyone else and all can see and feel the consequence of everything. They share each other's joys and hardships.

But it's asking too much to expect that everyone share the joys and hardships of everyone on earth. It's too complicated. We can't actually know, only guess, and what's good for one may not be good for another. Chaos sets in. If you want a non-capitalistic economy, you can't just go to blissful anarchy any more. You have to find a workable alternative. None have worked very well so far. Certainly none so half-baked and lacking in basic thought, as well as basic knowledge as the one discussed here.

If you're going to reform the economy, at a very minimum I think you need to understand what is actually the case now (which statements indicate is not true so far), and it would be a big help if you had a grasp of the things that have been tried so far and how they failed. It's preposterous, for example, for anyone making these proposals to claim ignorance of Communism.
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Old 18th May 2020, 06:53 PM   #1175
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Things like this occur over and over. Our complicated lives are intertwined with many other complicated lives, all over the world. Everything we do about anything is likely to have repercussions far and wide, on people whose existence we can only imagine.
Money just make things more complicated and we could keep money for international trade until it is abolished all over the world.
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Old 18th May 2020, 07:31 PM   #1176
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Nope. Money makes things simple. How much is a TV? Is it worth 2 chickens? Is it worth a 30 minute one-man play. What about a standard that is defined and everyone agrees upon? I can't cook a souffle. Will you accept 5 failed attempts at a souffle? If I have to work and can't own land, then your idea is worthless.

If you are done with the name calling, how about you answer my questions about rental buildings?

Here's a simple question. If I own a 4 unit rental property and throw out all the tenants, where will they go live?
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Old 18th May 2020, 08:01 PM   #1177
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Money just make things more complicated and we could keep money for international trade until it is abolished all over the world.
What we? Who will handle it? Where will it come from?
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Old 19th May 2020, 07:07 AM   #1178
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
In the system of no money all you need is to work in a system of money you need money to have people work because people need money to pay their stuff they can't work for free they need money. When in the system of no money everything if free of charge, OK troll. I notice that people who voted yes don't spend time to discuss with trolls.
No, as already noted in order for things and people to work you need infrastructure, facilities, material, equipment energy and so fourth. Which requires investment of much of those very same things just to put all that into place as well as maintain. Again simply eliminating money doesn't and can't eliminate those no monetary costs and need of investments.

How do you know who voted what and is not involved with the discussion? How many people voted no and aren't involved in the discussion?

I didn't vote at all since as I noted before your question is dishonest. You don't mention that simply working in no way ensures that said workers will get anything at all. In fact you have explicitly stated before that, like there is no obligation to work, there is no obligation to be compensated with anything for said work.

Heck, just with your narrow focus on work, that still requires investment of peoples time and labor. With potentially no return on said investment why should people invest in your so called 'system' by working for it? They may find their time and effort better invested in other things. Like waiting on line to get the best of what is available or influencing local and non-local decision makers to best suit their interests. Simply working to improve their living conditions or or those of their friends and family. Many of which may not even be in the same community.
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Old 19th May 2020, 08:29 AM   #1179
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Originally Posted by Little 10 Toes View Post
Here's a simple question. If I own a 4 unit rental property and throw out all the tenants, where will they go live?
I'm going to predict his simple answer, they call down to the employment center and each say "I need a house built" and *poof* those houses, and all the resources needed are somehow farted into existence.
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Old 19th May 2020, 09:15 AM   #1180
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
You must have investment in the capitalism system to have people work, in the free system you don't have to.
Wrong. You still need to invest all the same resources in any project to achieve anything. It doesn't make any difference whether or not you count up the cost of that investment in cash terms. All the resources you commit to one project can't simultaneously be used on another project.

What if the neighbouring city has the regional tractor factory but they're making crappy tractors which break down so our farms are unproductive? Do we vote to close one of our existing factories down and build a competing tractor factory instead? It's not like we can put them out of business, because they're not in business. They're just churning out free crappy tractors.

You're fixating on money as society's big problem when what you're actually complaining about is inequality. You're gripping this no-cash idea like a dog with a bone but you have absolutely no concept of how such a society might function beyond the utterly simplistic notion that everyone just keeps doing their job.
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Old 21st May 2020, 07:45 AM   #1181
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
In the system of no money all you need is to work in a system of money you need money to have people work because people need money to pay their stuff they can't work for free they need money. When in the system of no money everything if free of charge, OK troll. I notice that people who voted yes don't spend time to discuss with trolls.
In a system of no money everything is free because you take it by force. Hence why there is no need to determine the value of things for fair and equitable trade, which is one main main reasons the abstract idea of "money" is used at all.
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Old 21st May 2020, 08:58 AM   #1182
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
In a system of no money everything is free because you take it by force. Hence why there is no need to determine the value of things for fair and equitable trade, which is one main main reasons the abstract idea of "money" is used at all.
The problem is that Gaetan has conflated value with money. And without money things would have no value. This has never been true. Also that certain resources, will be abundant because there is no charge for them. That potable water will, somehow, just be available. Things will just poof into existence because they are needed. Ignoring the fact that nothing works that way.

In his world, something I spent 10 hours on is worth exactly as much as something you spend 10 seconds on. He wants a Champaign lifestyle on a beer budget. Not a craft beer, but a mass produced lite beer.
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Old 22nd May 2020, 07:02 PM   #1183
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The poor thing is just doing it in the completely wrong order. Instead of abolishing money and thinking that it would cause scarcity to disappear they should abolish scarcity and then money would disappear. They would've already made a lot of progress by now, I think.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 04:20 AM   #1184
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
The poor thing is just doing it in the completely wrong order. Instead of abolishing money and thinking that it would cause scarcity to disappear they should abolish scarcity and then money would disappear. They would've already made a lot of progress by now, I think.
This is a much better plan. Abolish scarcity and prices plummet. Everyone can afford whatever they need. Like when nuclear power first came online and we were promised a future of electricity "too cheap to meter".
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Old 23rd May 2020, 05:42 AM   #1185
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
The poor thing is just doing it in the completely wrong order. Instead of abolishing money and thinking that it would cause scarcity to disappear they should abolish scarcity and then money would disappear. They would've already made a lot of progress by now, I think.
Yep, once you have replicator technology (like in Star Trek) the cost of many things is simply the energy consumed and the time to replicate.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 07:38 AM   #1186
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Originally Posted by The Man View Post
Yep, once you have replicator technology (like in Star Trek) the cost of many things is simply the energy consumed and the time to replicate.
would the new currency be creativity? Why work when I can get a new car by doing nothing? How would I pay for land? What would be the value of a bottle of 1940 wine when there is no money?
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Old 23rd May 2020, 09:53 AM   #1187
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
The poor thing is just doing it in the completely wrong order. Instead of abolishing money and thinking that it would cause scarcity to disappear they should abolish scarcity and then money would disappear. They would've already made a lot of progress by now, I think.
Since we live in a world with finite resources, there will always be scarcity, by definition. It's at the heart of the problem for Gaetan too.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 01:42 PM   #1188
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Originally Posted by Little 10 Toes View Post
would the new currency be creativity?
I believe they speak of "credits" in those shows.

Originally Posted by Little 10 Toes View Post
Why work when I can get a new car by doing nothing?
The reasons generally given in those shows is to challenge and improve one's self.

Originally Posted by Little 10 Toes View Post
How would I pay for land?
I don't recall land transactions being mentioned but heck just find an uninhabited planet rich in energy.

Originally Posted by Little 10 Toes View Post
What would be the value of a bottle of 1940 wine when there is no money?
Replicated or un-replicated? I guess either way it would still very much depend on how much one likes wine.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 01:59 PM   #1189
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Originally Posted by The Man View Post
I believe they speak of "credits" in those shows.



The reasons generally given in those shows is to challenge and improve one's self.



I don't recall land transactions being mentioned but heck just find an uninhabited planet rich in energy.



Replicated or un-replicated? I guess either way it would still very much depend on how much one likes wine.
I would like to improve myself by finally reading all those classics I missed earlier. Don't disturb me, I'm reading Gibbon. Just leave the free food outside the door. Oh, and check the heating oil and mow the lawn.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 02:06 PM   #1190
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I would like to improve myself by finally reading all those classics I missed earlier. Don't disturb me, I'm reading Gibbon. Just leave the free food outside the door. Oh, and check the heating oil and mow the lawn.
In those shows you'd get food from a replicator, they didn't heat with oil and I'm not sure how lawn care worked (though Starfleet Academy did have a grounds keeper).
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Old 23rd May 2020, 04:44 PM   #1191
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Originally Posted by The Man View Post
In those shows you'd get food from a replicator, they didn't heat with oil and I'm not sure how lawn care worked (though Starfleet Academy did have a grounds keeper).
My starcruiser has a dead battery. It's parked behind the house. You'll have to mow around it. It turns out the replicator doesn't work below freezing, so when I ran out of heating oil it seized up. I called Central Services, but the line was busy.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 04:59 PM   #1192
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I suggest reversing the polarity of the neutron flow.
Works every time.
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Old Yesterday, 06:54 AM   #1193
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Originally Posted by Little 10 Toes View Post
would the new currency be creativity? Why work when I can get a new car by doing nothing? How would I pay for land? What would be the value of a bottle of 1940 wine when there is no money?
In million years, who then would remember that there was such a thing as wine?
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Old Yesterday, 07:12 AM   #1194
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
Since we live in a world with finite resources, there will always be scarcity, by definition. It's at the heart of the problem for Gaetan too.
Scarcity is provoked by lack of product and lack of money to pay. Under the no money system scarcity is only caused by lack of product. There could be many products but if you don't have the money to pay you are in scarcity. Preservation of resources can only be achieve in a modern society not in society where people live in misery and there is no facilities. This is another reason we won't survive with money.

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Old Yesterday, 08:03 AM   #1195
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Scarcity is provoked by lack of product and lack of money to pay. Under the no money system scarcity is only caused by lack of product. There could be many products but if you don't have the money to pay you are in scarcity. Preservation of resources can only be achieve in a modern society not in society where people live in misery and there is no facilities. This is another reason we won't survive with money.
You still don't get it. There are only so many acre feet of potable water, period. With or without money, you can't fart into existence more water. Scarcity of resources, especially natural ones, has nothing to do with money. Throwing more resources, such as labor, at a project doesn't create more product.

Another example, there is only so much lithium on the planet. Let's call it X. Once you mine it all, you can't create more lithium and, as a result, lithium ion battery production is done. No matter how much labor you force into digging into the crust, you aren't going to create any more. The shortage wasn't caused by money, but because resources are finite by definition.
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Old Yesterday, 08:10 AM   #1196
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
Another example, there is only so much lithium on the planet. Let's call it X. Once you mine it all, you can't create more lithium and, as a result, lithium ion battery production is done. No matter how much labor you force into digging into the crust, you aren't going to create any more. The shortage wasn't caused by money, but because resources are finite by definition.
The shortage is caused by money because money had us to waste it instead of preserving resources and they are going to waste it as long as there is one piece of that product left. When that product will start missing, the price will rise, then more profit for exploitation until there will be nothing left.

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Old Yesterday, 11:11 AM   #1197
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
The shortage is caused by money because money had us to waste it instead of preserving resources and they are going to waste it as long as there is one piece of that product left. When that product will start missing, the price will rise, then more profit for exploitation until there will be nothing left.
I think you couldn't miss the point harder if you tried. Without price, the only barrier to exploitation is gone. X is expensive because its hard to get doesn't become easier to get when you don't charge for it. He'll, it becomes harder to get because everyone is taking it without consideration. It was free, so no need to conserve. Ill just go get more of the free stuff again. Zero motivation to conserve.
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Old Yesterday, 11:13 AM   #1198
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Pick a product in abundance, lets call it toilet paper.create a run on it, how does making it free create more TP? How does making it free cause people to conserve?
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Old Yesterday, 11:56 AM   #1199
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
My starcruiser has a dead battery. It's parked behind the house. You'll have to mow around it. It turns out the replicator doesn't work below freezing, so when I ran out of heating oil it seized up. I called Central Services, but the line was busy.
Sounds like you need Harry Tuttle, Heating Engineer.

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Old Yesterday, 12:38 PM   #1200
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
I think you couldn't miss the point harder if you tried. Without price, the only barrier to exploitation is gone. X is expensive because its hard to get doesn't become easier to get when you don't charge for it. He'll, it becomes harder to get because everyone is taking it without consideration. It was free, so no need to conserve. Ill just go get more of the free stuff again. Zero motivation to conserve.
Under the money system conservation has no goal, just exploitation for profit has a goal.

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