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#1 |
Thinker
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 172
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How do we explain ghosts?
I am wondering about ghosts and how rational minded people claim to see them. When my mum was a child she claimed to see three shadows, she awoke from a strange noise coming from the window and then three spirits appeared and one pointed at her. How do we explain when people claim to see ghosts?
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#2 |
Thinker
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Wiltshire, UK
Posts: 234
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We are always looking for patterns in things we don't understand on first look.Pareidolia is where you interpret what you see as something else.
For example, a couple of years back driving home in the dark from work, I swerved to avoid at cat that looked like it was going to run into the road. The same thing happened every night for a week. Driving down the road in daylight I saw a black bin bag caught in the hedge - it didn't stop me from seeing the "cat" for the next couple of weeks in the road though. |
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#3 |
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ngunnawal Country
Posts: 69,607
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There's no one reason. Each claim is made for a different reason. All we can do is examine what is being claimed and seek alternative explanations for that particular incident.
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Please scream inside your heart. |
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#4 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Liverpool, UK
Posts: 7,279
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There are countless reasons for people to see ghosts, so it's not just one easy-to-explain answer, IMO.
Some people are brought up to believe in such things, especially older generations, in certain parts of the world. If you've ever been to Romania, they're very superstitious about all kinds of things, and it's the same in a lot of places throughout Europe, Germany has many superstitious people, much like parts of Ireland still do. I mean, we're talking people who still genuinely believe in werewolves, banshees, fairies, etc. Many people simply want to believe in such things, and thus, they do. Other people may just be influenced by stories they've heard, or things that frighten them. People who go into old buildings, and have all of these wild stories floating around in their noggins are obviously going to think that every sound they hear or every shadow they see is likely a spirit. Places where murders, executions, suffering, etc, have taken place, are all going to be regarded as being places where ghosts may exist. It's a very interesting subject that I often like a bit of banter about, and like I say, it's not just one simple explanation, it's just a storied and weird world of legend, myth, religion, fear, and all manner of things which contribute to people believing in ghosts, and any number of strange things, tbh. |
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Generic proclamation of positivity: Scouse saying - Go 'ed, is right, nice one, boss, well in, sound, belter, made up. Usage: 'Go 'ed, lad, get us an ale in, nice one.' |
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#5 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: St. Louis, Mo.
Posts: 12,860
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This particular incident (if well recalled) sounds like a variation of the “sleep paralysis” phenomena. That “hypnagogic” state between dreaming and wakefulness that sometimes involves bodily paralysis, and sometimes just allows a dream-state to “bleed over” into wakefulness.
Also, there have been a number of researches into the phenomena of people feeling a “presence” nearby. This is apparently due to brief disruptions of the activity in the temporal lobes, and can be duplicated in the laboratory. The “presence” may be interpreted by the individual as that of a religious figure... Saints, angels, Jesus... Or ghosts, or even aliens.... Depending on mind-set. |
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#6 |
Lackey
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 96,096
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I wish I knew how to quit you |
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#7 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 12,881
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The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax" |
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#8 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 91,292
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Quote:
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#9 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Liverpool, UK
Posts: 7,279
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Generic proclamation of positivity: Scouse saying - Go 'ed, is right, nice one, boss, well in, sound, belter, made up. Usage: 'Go 'ed, lad, get us an ale in, nice one.' |
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#10 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 12,881
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I have woken up and seen a woman in white standing at the foot of my bed looking at me.
One morning, on an army exercise, sitting in a foxhole all night, I saw soldiers everywhere, behind bushes, standing in the open, leaning against trees. There were no soldiers there. |
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The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax" |
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#11 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Liverpool, UK
Posts: 7,279
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People can and do see all kinds of things, the problem is that what we see is generally what our brains interpret our eyes as seeing, which is why our recollection of certain events is never going to be solid.
Ghost sightings, cryptid sightings, etc, they're all subject to our own biases and our own imaginations. People who want to see a ghost may end up doing so, but the chances of it being an actual spirit of a deceased person are, IMO, slim and none, and slim just left the building. |
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Generic proclamation of positivity: Scouse saying - Go 'ed, is right, nice one, boss, well in, sound, belter, made up. Usage: 'Go 'ed, lad, get us an ale in, nice one.' |
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#12 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 12,881
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__________________
The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax" |
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#13 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Liverpool, UK
Posts: 7,279
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I totally agree.
I've worked in countless old buildings, hospitals, schools, etc, especially at night, alone, and you do get spooked from time to time. It's so easy to see how the imagination can play tricks on us, especially in places already thought to have a haunted connection. Now if you actually believe in such things, then almost anything you see or hear in those places will probably be attributed to a ghost. I worked in a couple of well-known ghostly hot-spots in Liverpool doing security overnight, one being Speke hall, the Grade 1 listed Tudor manor house, and the other being Park Lea Manor, which isn't more than a mild stroll away from my house, both reported to be haunted, with Park Lea even reputedly known as the most haunted house in the city. Working at both of those places, it's easy to see how people could be spooked, I mean...they're bloody old! You do hear sounds, namely the house settling at night. A few of the other people who worked shifts there claimed to have seen and heard things, but I never saw anything, and like I said, I was alone. I'm just not that way inclined, but I do have a wild imagination, and I enjoyed my time in both buildings. Now imagine a group of ghost-hunters walking around those places in the dark at night actually in pursuit of spirits... |
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Generic proclamation of positivity: Scouse saying - Go 'ed, is right, nice one, boss, well in, sound, belter, made up. Usage: 'Go 'ed, lad, get us an ale in, nice one.' |
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#14 |
Banned
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 1,990
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#15 |
Rough Around the Edges
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Deep Storage
Posts: 7,093
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In your mom's case from the OP, it sounds like hypnopompic hallucinations. I've had some gnarly ones, myself. Once, a grim reaper looking fellow picked me up and slowly carried me around my bedroom while I was unable to move. I thought I was dead for sure, but nope. A few minutes later, I woke up for real. I was in my bed, and I'd been experiencing sleep paralysis, which occurs when a person is in between sleeping and waking states. It's basically a dream, but it seems very real because you're partially awake - just not fully awake. So aspects of it seem unimaginably real.
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#16 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 91,292
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#17 |
Professional Nemesis for Hire
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Home.
Posts: 8,316
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#18 |
Banned
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 1,990
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My point: You make the effort to quantify what it is then. I found an odd electrical field out hiking in basically nowhere and brought an EF reader out there in that pursuit, the field is in fact there, and after crunching possibilties most of them although sorta strange, are naturally occuring:
Magnetic or similar ore Certain facets of the pollination cycle An underground spring all come up after some googlish detective work. Thats my point. Not conjecture, an attempt to confirm the nature of that weird thing. |
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#19 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 24,608
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I entered a room to find a rocking chair moving by itself. I even had time to get out my phone, start up the app, and video record it. It was about 30 seconds before it stopped.
Turns out, the cat sleeping it had been startled when I walked in, and its leap set the chair in motion. I had not seen the cat (until a few days later, when the same thing happened.) I was surprised that the rocking had such a long decay time, though. |
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Science is self-correcting. Woo is self-contradicting. |
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#20 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 29,937
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Only once you've reached at least a reasonable burden of reason to even ask the question. "Vague, unsupported anonymous anecdotes" do not a need for a double blind study make.
We'll worry about "explaining ghosts" once we're given a valid reason to even bothered asking the question, not before. |
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Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate." |
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#21 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,632
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__________________
"We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan |
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#22 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 4,856
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The power of suggestion possibly with psychological disturbances mixed in.
Some researchers argue ghost sightings may stem from vestigial psychological adaptations developed in the days of prehistoric hominids, or at least humans. Our ancestors would have seen human agency in a lot of things we now know are natural phenomena. They had a keen sense of their environment, but they didn't do the skeptical sifting of the evidence Some cool reads: http://nautil.us/issue/53/monsters/h...gned-your-fear |
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#23 |
Illuminator
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Canada
Posts: 3,529
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The question cannot be answered .... There is at least dozen(s) of base reasons, there is a specific group of reasons, for each persons 'sighting"
One example is if the person had ZERO data input on ghosts, would it occur to them what they saw was a "ghost"" |
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#24 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 7,724
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Someone on this board (sorry can't remember who) has a great story about how the completely unmistakably ghost of a woman in white appearing and disappearing turned out to be a cow. I've had a few very creepy examples of pareidolia when out at night, and once after about 36 hours without sleep was seeing people out of the corners of my eyes when anything moved, and had a long conversation with someone who was demonstrably somewhere else. I've also had one experience I can't explain but I can't vouch for the accuracy of how I remember it. I believed is such things at the time and was tired and very stressed. It's a story I've told many times but never documented and that is a recipe for creating false memories.
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"I know my brain cannot tell me what to think." - Scorpion "Nebulous means Nebulous" - Adam Hills |
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#25 |
Thinker
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 172
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#26 |
Thinker
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 172
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Awesome and rational responses, thanks guys. This was my thought, I think my mum was still in a dream state, just wanted others views. My colleague at work said she saw a man lying next to her, a ghost, my immediate thought was omg, but then I thought 'she was probably still dreaming'
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#27 |
Thinker
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 172
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What I also find interesting is how a lot of people seem to see ghosts in the night, this must mean that they are still in a dream when they think they are awake. If ghosts were real we would see them everywhere but we don't!
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#28 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,632
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1) well, not I'm just super-curious about what that "also" thing was.
2) Yeah, believing in such things at the time is key. I "saw ghosts" when I believed in them, too, and would not be surprised if my memories were embellished over the years in my re-remembering of them (while I still believed.) |
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"We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan |
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#29 |
Thinker
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 172
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#30 |
Thinker
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#31 |
Thinker
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#32 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 48,599
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I don't explain ghosts.
Nothing ghosts do is significant enough to require explanation. It's not like they're hurricanes, or internal combustion, or stellar fusion, or anything else that's actually important. Stuff happens, and you want to attribute it to ghosts? Be my guest. Show me a ghost that can do something predictable, repeatable, and useful, and I'll show you a ghost that requires any more explanation than, "that's nice... more tea?" |
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#33 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: The great American southeast
Posts: 8,859
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There are as many explanations as there are ghost stories. I personally see things that aren't there when I hear a noise. I am very suggestible and when some noise on the roof sounded like walking I saw a big tall ghost walk in. It was in broad daylight. Cartoon Casper like thing. My cousin has morning hallucinations and chases them with a shotgun.
A noise like words that are just under our ability to hear cause us to believe a ghost is around. Schizophrenics and brain-damaged people see things. The power of suggestion makes us believe in ghosts I personally am among the brain-damaged people who see things they don't want to see whether they are there or not. Phenothyizides stop hallucinations but they make you feel so bad your better off without them. |
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If at first you don't succeed try try again. Then if you fail to succeed to Hell with that. Try something else. |
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#34 |
Thinker
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Posts: 172
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#35 |
Thinker
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#36 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: near trees, houses and a lake.
Posts: 2,174
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If by 'truly exist' you mean exists as much as my imaginary madras curry that i'm drooling over, even though it's not real, then yeah it truly exists.
There's no evidence that ghosts exist, in the sense of having an existence. People seeing ghosts is a real phenomenon yeah, that doesn't mean ghosts truly exist. If it does then my imaginary madras curry truly exists too. I drooled after all. |
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#37 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 21,206
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Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
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#38 |
Penultimate Amazing
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#39 |
Illuminator
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#40 |
So far, so good...
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: On the outskirts of Nowhere; the middle was too crowded
Posts: 3,698
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AmyW, no one has yet demonstrated that there are any supernatural things or phenomena.
Please examine your reasons for wanting them to be real. Understanding those reasons might be beneficial to you. |
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