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Tags donald trump , E. Jean Carroll , rape charges , Trump controversies

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Old 26th June 2019, 02:22 PM   #1
wasapi
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A recent rape allegation against Trump.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...=.7dc5e420a5b3

Yesterday, I happened to see an interview on CNN, with a well known reporter, (I believe it is for ELLE magazine), who is also promoting her new autobiographical book. In the book, she describes a horrific, painful rape she suffered by Trump, that happened a little over 20 years ago.

Then, I found the above article. I know, the reaction seems to be - 'So?', 'We already knew he was a pig'. However, I am still curious about opinions. Could there be some ripple-effect up the road? The book just came out. She came off intelligent, well spoken, and very believable.


Of course he denies it, saying that the woman isn't even his "type". And claims that he never met her. Though I believe there is a photo of them.

Thanks.
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Old 26th June 2019, 02:27 PM   #2
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"Not my type," says the fellow who doesn't mind admitting there is indeed a type of woman he would rape.
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Old 26th June 2019, 02:52 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
"Not my type," says the fellow who doesn't mind admitting there is indeed a type of woman he would rape.
Or the reaction of someone who thinks that, for him, there can be no such crime- that the only important thing is whether he wants something, and it's not possible to steal from someone who has no right to refuse him if he does.
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Old 26th June 2019, 03:17 PM   #4
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Did you see her interview on CNN where she said she wouldn't call it rape, and said that she thinks most women find the idea of rape sexy?
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Old 26th June 2019, 03:23 PM   #5
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Trump is simply amoral. I don't think that he believes he is doing anything wrong. So why does he lie about so many things if he doesn't know their wrong? Because he knows that others think those things are wrong and even illegal. His narcissism tells him that what he wants, he deserves.

I find it ironic that he claims that 'Mexico is sending us their rapists' when we have a president accused of rape and sexual assault himself. And I bet there are others out there who are afraid to come forward. They've seen what Trump does to those he goes after.
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Old 26th June 2019, 05:07 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Did you see her interview on CNN where she said she wouldn't call it rape, and said that she thinks most women find the idea of rape sexy?
Nope and don't care. All we need for it to be true is the Pussy Grabber audio and the allegation. He's a rapist; end of story.
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Old 26th June 2019, 05:12 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Nope and don't care. All we need for it to be true is the Pussy Grabber audio and the allegation. He's a rapist; end of story.
Too bad she didn't come forward before the audio was so widely published. Then her story might have more weight.
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Old 26th June 2019, 05:14 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Too bad she didn't come forward before the audio was so widely published. Then her story might have more weight.
Her story has the weight it needs to, to call the stupid bitch in chief a rapist.
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Old 26th June 2019, 09:58 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Did you see her interview on CNN where she said she wouldn't call it rape, and said that she thinks most women find the idea of rape sexy?
She might want to consult with a few women who actually have been raped before making that kind of generalisation.


Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Too bad she didn't come forward before the audio was so widely published. Then her story might have more weight.

Yeah, these things would only have weight if the accused was anyone other than Trump.


ETA:

Did I report it to the police?

No.

Did I tell anyone about it?

Yes. I told two close friends. The first, a journalist, magazine writer, correspondent on the TV morning shows, author of many books, etc., begged me to go to the police.

“He raped you,” she kept repeating when I called her. “He raped you. Go to the police! I’ll go with you. We’ll go together.”


My second friend is also a journalist, a New York anchorwoman. She grew very quiet when I told her, then she grasped both my hands in her own and said, “Tell no one. Forget it! He has 200 lawyers. He’ll bury you.” (Two decades later, both still remember the incident clearly and confirmed their accounts to New York.)


That's enough weight for me - two contemporaneous witnesses to her statement.

And legally, her statements to her friends could be construed as "excited utterances" which means their testimony would be valid as an exception to the hearsay rule. Of course, if this was not a 1st degree rape, 1st degree criminal sexual act or a 1st degree aggravated sexual abuse, then its not a class A felony and the statute of limitations has expired.
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Old 27th June 2019, 01:16 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Too bad she didn't come forward before the audio was so widely published. Then her story might have more weight.
Why should it matter?

Oh yeah, anything you can do to discredit the witness (no matter how ridiculous) is fine. We all know plenty of examples where accusers didn't speak out until one particular incident became public, and for good reason. The majority of rapes go unreported because women don't want to be put through the meat grinder by people like you. So they suck it up and 'move on', while the rapist becomes President of the United States.

I have no doubt that Trump is a rapist, not just because he's 'the type' but for the things he has said about women and how he treats them. If anything, those things make her 'story' even more believable.
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Old 27th June 2019, 03:52 AM   #11
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Look this is going to have no more effect than Trump bragging about sexual assault and his other victims coming forward. No one who votes for him cares.
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Old 27th June 2019, 04:17 AM   #12
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This story, which accuses the sitting president of forcible rape, is not getting much play in the media. It seems there is no interest in the many moral failings of Trump. Simply said, the poor moral character of the president is not newsworthy, everyone already knew that in the general sense.

I imagine some small portion of the Trump fanbase see him as some sort of infallible figure that could do no wrong. Many more see how as a means to an end and accept his many downsides as the cost of keeping the D's out of power.

For some, Trump's criminal deeds only reinforces their support for him. They idolize power, and the lack of consequences for blatant misdeeds only confirms that Trump is powerful. The president is (and has been in his prior life) above the laws and norms that govern the little people, and that's exactly what they want out of him. They do not deny that Trump has been wicked, but instead embrace wickedness without consequence as his, and vicariously their, right.
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Old 27th June 2019, 04:44 AM   #13
dann
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Originally Posted by turingtest View Post
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
"Not my type," says the fellow who doesn't mind admitting there is indeed a type of woman he would rape.
Or the reaction of someone who thinks that, for him, there can be no such crime- that the only important thing is whether he wants something, and it's not possible to steal from someone who has no right to refuse him if he does.

That's the same thing, really. A rapist might use both excuses:
1) I obviously didn't do it since this particular woman doesn't appeal to me, i.e. she doesn't deserve to be raped by me. (Remember that the POTUS called Stormy Daniels 'Horseface' (Guardian).)
2) "Trump: I donít even wait. And when youíre a star, they let you do it. You can do anything.
Bush: Whatever you want.
Trump: Grab íem by the pussy. You can do anything"
(NYT)

The founding slaveowners must be so proud of this guy!
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Old 27th June 2019, 05:10 AM   #14
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I read the interview. Most people not most women.
Quote:
  • ANDERSON COOPER, CNN: So you don't feel like a victim?
  • E. JEAN CARROLL: I was not thrown on the ground and ravished. Which, the word "rape" carries so many sexual connotations. This was not sexual. It just, it hurt.
  • ANDERSON COOPER: I think most people think of rape as a violent assault. It is not sexual--
  • E. JEAN CARROLL: I think most people think of rape as being sexy.
  • ANDERSON COOPER: Let's take a short break.
  • E. JEAN CARROLL: Think of the fantasies.
Link
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Old 27th June 2019, 06:05 AM   #15
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Podcast on point from NYT

https://twitter.com/davidfrum/status...99940496924672
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Old 27th June 2019, 10:39 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
I read the interview. Most people not most women.
Carroll has a point. A lot of people (men as well as women) do have 'rape' fantasies as dann said. Think of Rhett Butler carrying a kicking and screaming Scarlett up the stairs to the bedroom. The next morning, she wakes up smiling and as content as a kitten who just lapped a bowl of milk thinking about the wonderful night she had with him. In the TV series Billions, Chuck is into masochism but he still has a 'safe word' whereby he maintains control. There's a common belief that women really want to be overpowered by a sexy man. The difference between these fantasies and reality is that in the fantasies control is still maintained by the woman. In real life, it is taken away from her.
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Old 27th June 2019, 01:13 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
This story, which accuses the sitting president of forcible rape, is not getting much play in the media.
Because it's a train wreck. The claim itself is unsubstantiated, the timing is suspect, the claimant exhibits bizarre behavior calling into question her reliability, and it turns out that the whole thing is suspiciously close to an episode of Law & Order SVU.

The press staying away from this story is actually pretty sensible.
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Old 27th June 2019, 02:09 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The claim itself is unsubstantiated...
What sort of substantiation could one reasonably expect, if the sexual assault described by Ms. Carroll happened substantively as she described? A private encounter in a Bergdorf's dressing room doesn't seem likely to be caught on tape.
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Old 27th June 2019, 02:26 PM   #19
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It seems that Ziggurat and theprestige are among that small group of people whose criteria for a credible accusation of rape requires....

1. An immediate report to the Police
2. A video and/or eyewitness to the rape
3. A positive sexual assault kit
4. DNA evidence
5. The alleged victim must be able to recount, without error or omission, the exact place and time of the alleged rape
6. The alleged victim must be able to recount, without error or omissions, every minute, excruciating detail of the rape.

If any of the above is not present, the victim is making it up

With the standards Ziggurat and theprestige are asking, Bill Cosby, Harvey Winestain and Rolf Harris would never have been brought to Justice.
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Old 27th June 2019, 02:33 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
What sort of substantiation could one reasonably expect, if the sexual assault described by Ms. Carroll happened substantively as she described?
She claims she kept her dress from the incident (I wonder if it's blue?), which could contain forensic evidence, but said she wouldn't turn it over to police.

Look, I get that sometimes actual rape won't have corroborating evidence. But that doesn't mean that the press should run with any and all rape accusations. It should take more than that to turn an accusation into a national news story. And not only is there no collaboration, but there are a bunch of red flags. That completely justifies the press not running with the story. It's one thing if reporters want to dig into it to see if they can find any corroboration (and maybe they are doing that), but it would be irresponsible to keep touting the accusation as it stands now. It's also very dangerous to their own reputation to push a story which could so obviously blow up in their face.
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Old 27th June 2019, 02:36 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
It seems that Ziggurat and theprestige are among that small group of people whose criteria for a credible accusation of rape requires....

1. An immediate report to the Police
2. A video and/or eyewitness to the rape
3. A positive sexual assault kit
4. DNA evidence
5. The alleged victim must be able to recount, without error or omission, the exact place and time of the alleged rape
6. The alleged victim must be able to recount, without error or omissions, every minute, excruciating detail of the rape.

If any of the above is not present, the victim is making it up

With the standards Ziggurat and theprestige are asking, Bill Cosby, Harvey Winestain and Rolf Harris would never have been brought to Justice.
Nice straw man you've got there.

Let me ask you: what about this case makes you think the press should cover it? What would it take for you to think the press shouldn't cover a rape accusation? Note that we're talking about press coverage, not police investigation, and not even press investigation.
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Old 27th June 2019, 02:37 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
It seems that Ziggurat and theprestige are among that small group of people whose criteria for a credible accusation of rape requires....

1. An immediate report to the Police
2. A video and/or eyewitness to the rape
3. A positive sexual assault kit
4. DNA evidence
5. The alleged victim must be able to recount, without error or omission, the exact place and time of the alleged rape
6. The alleged victim must be able to recount, without error or omissions, every minute, excruciating detail of the rape.

If any of the above is not present, the victim is making it up

With the standards Ziggurat and theprestige are asking, Bill Cosby, Harvey Winestain and Rolf Harris would never have been brought to Justice.
Close.

Would you find it helpful if I corrected your few but significant errors?
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Old 27th June 2019, 02:39 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
It seems that Ziggurat and theprestige are among that small group of people whose criteria for a credible accusation of rape requires....

There's a difference between credible and provable.


I find the accusation credible, and the fact that there are two people willing to come forward and say that she repeated the charge to them before Trump was a political figure makes it much more credible to me. In the 1990s, she didn't make up the story for political reasons.


Still, that doesn't mean I think the case is proven, and I think that the standard in this and every criminal allegation is that the person is innocent until proven guilty. At least for the moment, that means I have to go with "innocent"
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Old 27th June 2019, 02:47 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The claim itself is unsubstantiated...
No, the claim itself is substantiated by two contemporaneous witnesses

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
the timing is suspect
In what way? Does Trump have alibi witness who puts him elsewhere at the time? (other than his lying family of course)

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
the claimant exhibits bizarre behavior calling into question her reliability
..because being raped is just a normal part of everyday life, and no rape victim would ever exhibit abnormal behavior.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
...and it turns out that the whole thing is suspiciously close to an episode of Law & Order SVU.
1. And this is evidence of what, exactly?

2. And did you realize that of the 457 Law & Order SVU episodes so far aired, the premise of 328 of them (over 2/3) were based on real cases?
https://lawandorder.fandom.com/wiki/...dline_episodes

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The press staying away from this story is actually pretty sensible.
The press are staying away because the fact that Trump is a misogynist and rapist is old news, and sadly, has been normalized.
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Old 27th June 2019, 03:02 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Nice straw man you've got there.
Its not a strawman at all. If you have said "provable" instead of "credible" I would have no argument with you

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Let me ask you: what about this case makes you think the press should cover it?
Its an accusation of rape against a politician. Such accusations should always covered by the press.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
What would it take for you to think the press shouldn't cover a rape accusation?
Proof positive the the accusation is false or mistake, for example if it can be shown that the accused or the alleged victim was elsewhere at the time of the rape claim (e.g., the fake accusation against Robert Mueller)

Perhaps if the alleged victim has a history of making false claims of rape then the press might want to shy away.

However, in this case, there were two separate contemporaneous "outcry witnesses" who she reported the rape to. Also, the accusation was made at a time when Trump was just a run of the mill rich guy, nothing special. These two things make the accusation credible IMO, but would be very hard to prove.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Close.

Would you find it helpful if I corrected your few but significant errors?
No, it would be a waste of your time, and mine. Your body of work indicates your attitude toward women who make rape claims.
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Old 27th June 2019, 03:20 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Still, that doesn't mean I think the case is proven, and I think that the standard in this and every criminal allegation is that the person is innocent until proven guilty. At least for the moment, that means I have to go with "innocent"
This standard is only a standard in a Court of Law. Unless you are on a Jury that is deciding the case, you are under exactly zero requirement to consider someone innocent until they are proven guilty.
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Old 27th June 2019, 03:23 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
This standard is only a standard in a Court of Law. Unless you are on a Jury that is deciding the case, you are under exactly zero requirement to consider someone innocent until they are proven guilty.
The good news is, you can take matters into your own hands by voting against Trump, and buying her book. The bad news is, that's about all you can do. Maybe if you're lucky, you can vote for a Congressman or Senator who promises to push for impeachment over this.
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Old 27th June 2019, 03:36 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The good news is, you can take matters into your own hands by voting against Trump, and buying her book. The bad news is, that's about all you can do. Maybe if you're lucky, you can vote for a Congressman or Senator who promises to push for impeachment over this.
Nope, but my wife can, and will.

ETA: I thought I should expand on this a bit further, and in doing so help explain why as a Kiwi I do care about US Politics more than just for the extended effects that it has elsewhere in the world.

My wife is a US Citizen, now dual Citizenship with her getting New Zealand Citizenship as well earlier this year. Her family, and now my extended family, all still live in the US, and so are affected by what happens there. My Brother-in-law is in the US Coast Guard and is about to be deployed to the UAE, right in the path of the increasing hostilities between the US and Iran.

I do have a dog in this fight, because US politics directly effects the members of my family, and so yes, I am glad that my wife has a say in who gets to be the President come 2021, and I know her politics and beliefs, and she will be voting Democrat, and I support her in that.
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Last edited by PhantomWolf; 27th June 2019 at 03:44 PM.
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Old 27th June 2019, 03:47 PM   #29
Ziggurat
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Its not a strawman at all. If you have said "provable" instead of "credible" I would have no argument with you
I didn't use either word. You're the first person to use the word "credible" in this thread, I never used it at all until this sentence, so it's rather strange that this is the basis for your attack on me.

Quote:
Its an accusation of rape against a politician. Such accusations should always covered by the press.
You don't see how that standard could possibly turn out badly? And how much coverage should such accusations get? After all, her claim HAS gotten coverage. How much more do you think it deserves?
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Old 27th June 2019, 03:55 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Carroll has a point...The difference between these fantasies and reality is that in the fantasies control is still maintained by the woman. In real life, it is taken away from her.
True and I think the circumstances of her attack come into play as well.
Quote:
  • ANDERSON COOPER, CNN: So you don't feel like a victim?
  • E. JEAN CARROLL: I was not thrown on the ground and ravished.
If she had been accosted by a complete stranger in a deserted subway corridor, then attacked at knife point, I'm sure her reaction would have been very different.
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Old 27th June 2019, 04:01 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I didn't use either word. You're the first person to use the word "credible" in this thread, I never used it at all until this sentence, so it's rather strange that this is the basis for your attack on me.
My bad, you said "unsubstantiated", but the result is the same

IMO, two outcry witnesses substantiate the claim, and pin a historical time on that claim
NOTE: verb: substantiate; 3rd person present: substantiates; past tense: substantiated; past participle: substantiated; gerund or present participle: substantiating

provide evidence to support or prove the truth of.

If you said unprovable, I'd have no argument


Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You don't see how that standard could possibly turn out badly? And how much coverage should such accusations get? After all, her claim HAS gotten coverage. How much more do you think it deserves?
Any press reporting of a politician's potential wrongdoing could turn out badly - it could also bring out the truth. That is the nature of the beast.

In the case of Trump, there is ****-loads of wrongdoing to choose from!
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Old 27th June 2019, 04:33 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You don't see how that standard could possibly turn out badly? And how much coverage should such accusations get? After all, her claim HAS gotten coverage. How much more do you think it deserves?
Considering that her allegation is the 22nd against this President, it'd be nice to see the Republicans living up to the standards which they demanded about Bill Clinton during the 90's.
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Old 27th June 2019, 05:11 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Nope, but my wife can, and will.
Wrong.

You can still buy her book.
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Old 27th June 2019, 05:14 PM   #34
PhantomWolf
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Wrong.

You can still buy her book.
You do realise I was address the highlighted part, right? I mean that is the point of highlighting something isn't it?
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Old 27th June 2019, 05:20 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Wrong.

You can still buy her book.
You can also refer to Trump as President Rapist to friends and family and perpetuate the fact that he's a rapist to those around you. You can berate Trump supporters you encounter with their support for the rape of women.
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Old 27th June 2019, 05:21 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Considering that her allegation is the 22nd against this President, it'd be nice to see the Republicans living up to the standards which they demanded about Bill Clinton during the 90's.

Why should the number of allegations matter?
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Old 27th June 2019, 05:22 PM   #37
Stacyhs
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
True and I think the circumstances of her attack come into play as well.
Quote:
Quote:
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN: So you don't feel like a victim?
E. JEAN CARROLL: I was not thrown on the ground and ravished.
If she had been accosted by a complete stranger in a deserted subway corridor, then attacked at knife point, I'm sure her reaction would have been very different.
I suspect Carroll did not, and still may not, really admit to herself that she was raped. Her odd response that she prefers to call it a "fight" and not a "rape" is enlightening. She is still minimizing it by saying she wasn't "thrown on the ground and 'ravished'". She can't even use the word "raped". "Ravished" has a different connotation; it's a word that paperback novels use for what happened to Scarlett O'Hara and those Victorian heroines who are 'ravished' by the sexy bad boys- really good guys whom they later marry and become duchesses.

Quote:
"I felt that the situation at Bergdorf's was my fault, I blamed myself for that," Carroll said on MSNBC. "I said 'I am the stupidest woman that's ever walked,' and I said that for years."
Notice again that she refers to it not as a 'rape', but as "the situation" and blames herself.
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Old 27th June 2019, 05:23 PM   #38
Stacyhs
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Why should the number of allegations matter?
Really? Is that a serious question?
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Old 27th June 2019, 05:40 PM   #39
theprestige
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Really? Is that a serious question?
It absolutely is.

I dunno. Maybe this is a math problem for you? X unrpoven allegations = Y proven allegations? Should I ask you to show your work?

---

Should I ask you if you see how such a system could obviously be gamed by people who are long on hate and short on evidence?

Last edited by theprestige; 27th June 2019 at 05:41 PM.
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Old 27th June 2019, 05:41 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Any press reporting of a politician's potential wrongdoing could turn out badly - it could also bring out the truth. That is the nature of the beast.

In the case of Trump, there is ****-loads of wrongdoing to choose from!
That isnít actually a defense of your proposed standard. And special pleading about Trump isnít justification either.
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