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Tags Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez , global warming , green energy issues

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Old 12th February 2019, 09:18 PM   #481
lomiller
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
AFAIK, there are no good objections to the Yucca Mountain Nuclear Waste Repository, which would allow for nuclear waste to be retrieved if deemed necessary.
Yes there is. The "Waste" marked for disposal has only had ~5% of it's fissionable material used up. If you really want to scale up nuclear power to replace fossil fuels you need to get MUCH more efficient utilization than that, otherwise Uranium reserves are far to small to get the job done. In current reactor designs Uranium reserves would only last a couple years if you tried to replace fossil fuels with Nuclear.
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Old 12th February 2019, 09:22 PM   #482
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Meanwhile the plan to get rid of airplanes with high-speed trains has hit a snag.

Quote:
In a change to a project voters first approved with a $10 billion bond during the Schwarzenegger administration, Newsom said there “simply isn’t a path” to build high speed rail to connect the northern and southern parts of the state without more funding. The project as originally designed now is estimated to cost at least $77 billion.

Instead, he called for focus on a section linking the Central Valley cities of Merced and Bakersfield, which he said have long been neglected by lawmakers.
A bullet train from nowhere to nowhere. How typical of California.
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Old 12th February 2019, 09:28 PM   #483
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Brought over from the AOC Video thread so as not to sidetrack that one..

Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
Not to mention various power-dense industrial needs, like smelting as a prime example. Solar just doesn't provide the power density required.
Solar and wind-power, even taken together, will never be a 100% solution for all the reasons that people have said. Solar doesn't generate power at night and its efficiency and output drops off on cloudy days. Wind, although it is potentially capable of operating through 24 hours, doesn't generate power if there is no wind (or if there is too much wind).

Also, batteries are not yet available with sufficient energy density to store the solar and wind generated energy for use during those times of low or no output

To a certain extent these limitations could be mitigated by interlinking all of these power sources in a nationwide grid on the basis that there will always be plenty of sunshine and/or wind at multiple locations all over the grid. The down side is losses on the network; the longer the distances that power need to be transmitted, the more line losses you get. Those losses can be mitigated to a certain extent by having more and smaller energy generating plants closer together.

IMO, the only true solution to having an energy supply that does not rely on any fossil fuels is a combination of nuclear, hydro-electric, tidal, solar and wind power, with nuclear being the cornerstone. This is what could be called near-100% renewable solution. Only nuclear is not renewable, although as someone pointed out earlier, some advances are being made in extracting uranium from seawater.
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Old 12th February 2019, 10:11 PM   #484
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Meanwhile the plan to get rid of airplanes with high-speed trains has hit a snag.



A bullet train from nowhere to nowhere. How typical of California.
Yeah, the funding for high speed rail is going to have to be federal.
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Old 12th February 2019, 10:28 PM   #485
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
We can adapt but we can't prevent. How does that work?
Can't stop the sea level from rising, but we can move away from the coast.
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Old 12th February 2019, 10:53 PM   #486
The Great Zaganza
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Yes there is. The "Waste" marked for disposal has only had ~5% of it's fissionable material used up. If you really want to scale up nuclear power to replace fossil fuels you need to get MUCH more efficient utilization than that, otherwise Uranium reserves are far to small to get the job done. In current reactor designs Uranium reserves would only last a couple years if you tried to replace fossil fuels with Nuclear.
I don't think this is as much an argument against Yucca than it is for having more variety in reactor types. Whatever is left still needs to be put somewhere.
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Old 13th February 2019, 01:34 AM   #487
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Solar doesn't generate power at night...
So that's why my solar night lights don't work!

Quote:
Also, batteries are not yet available with sufficient energy density to store the solar and wind generated energy for use during those times of low or no output
Nonsense. Energy density has nothing to do with it - only cost matters. And there are other ways to store the energy (eg. pumped hydro).

Quote:
IMO, the only true solution to having an energy supply that does not rely on any fossil fuels is a combination of nuclear, hydro-electric, tidal, solar and wind power, with nuclear being the cornerstone.
That's rich coming from someone who claims to live in New Zealand.

All this talk about what we should do smacks of communist-style central planning. I say let the market decide. Right now nuclear isn't doing too well, while renewables are increasing exponentially. And that is despite significant public skepticism and opposition to wind farms etc.

If nuclear was as good as some say, it would already be the 'cornerstone' of power generation, and nobody would have bothered with renewables. In reality nuclear plants are very expensive and take years to build, much longer than wind or solar. If it wasn't for government subsidies most nuclear plants would be uneconomic, and some have been abandoned even before completion because the costs were too high.

Renewables Are Expected to Dominate Global Power Generation by 2040
Quote:
"The cost declines that we are seeing with these technologies are so steep that it becomes a matter of time as to when they start crossing over and becoming competitive in different ways," Henbest said of solar, renewables and lithium-ion batteries. "These things are getting cheaper faster than we thought even a year ago."
There's a revolution coming, and we hardly need a "Green New Deal" to keep it going. Just having a government that isn't actively trying to stop it will be enough.
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Old 13th February 2019, 02:42 AM   #488
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
That's rich coming from someone who claims to live in New Zealand.
Hey, don't tar all Kiwis with the same brush.

1. Not everyone in NZ is a 100% tree-hugging hippie. I believe in recycling, minimising plastic use, mindful disposal of waste, sustainable milling of forestry etc. However, despite the fact that I an a Green Party supporter, I do not agree with their stance on nuclear energy.

2. We may have one of the highest levels of renewable energy in the world but I wasn't thinking about just us - Think Globally - Act Locally.

3. Hydro still has its problems. We have had power shortages due to low lake levels - https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/a...ectid=10376446 This is likely to happen more as the climate changes and as the weather patterns become more extreme, we will get long periods with no rain.

NOTE: We haven't seen any rain in Nelson for six weeks and we have been having spates of forest fires in the Waimea West and in Eve's Vallry only 15 km from where I live.
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Old 13th February 2019, 03:00 AM   #489
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People seem to be arguing about the GND as if it was supposed to be the exact plan for the next presidential term.

Because technology, health, education, agriculture, science, and knowledge are ever-changing, it appears to be a plan that is appropriate for now and for 30 years into the future, due to its apparent "vagueness".

Our responsibility to the planet and its inhabitants won't change, which is what the GND sets out.

Policies will be made that implement changes to our way of living and will set out the specifics appropriate to the time they are made, but should follow the overall GND which will remain appropriate.
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Old 13th February 2019, 06:54 AM   #490
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Brought over from the AOC Video thread so as not to sidetrack that one..



Solar and wind-power, even taken together, will never be a 100% solution for all the reasons that people have said. Solar doesn't generate power at night and its efficiency and output drops off on cloudy days. Wind, although it is potentially capable of operating through 24 hours, doesn't generate power if there is no wind (or if there is too much wind).

Also, batteries are not yet available with sufficient energy density to store the solar and wind generated energy for use during those times of low or no output

To a certain extent these limitations could be mitigated by interlinking all of these power sources in a nationwide grid on the basis that there will always be plenty of sunshine and/or wind at multiple locations all over the grid. The down side is losses on the network; the longer the distances that power need to be transmitted, the more line losses you get. Those losses can be mitigated to a certain extent by having more and smaller energy generating plants closer together.

IMO, the only true solution to having an energy supply that does not rely on any fossil fuels is a combination of nuclear, hydro-electric, tidal, solar and wind power, with nuclear being the cornerstone. This is what could be called near-100% renewable solution. Only nuclear is not renewable, although as someone pointed out earlier, some advances are being made in extracting uranium from seawater.
That was pretty much where I was going. In those places where you need a lot of energy in one spot, you either deal with increased cost due to transmission losses (your first option using a distributed grid) or you need something local that puts out a lot of power.

I agree, solar and wind won't replace all our needs. I think they'd be fine for a large part of our residential and light commercial use, but industrial and heavy usage areas are still going to need something more.
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Old 13th February 2019, 07:32 AM   #491
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
They're going to hit a wall. Humans generally don't vote for projects that reduce their quality of life.
I agree. The futility of the environmental movement's desire to take the world in that way was outlined well in the book "Break Through: Why We Can't Leave Saving The Planet To Environmentalists"
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Old 13th February 2019, 07:43 AM   #492
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Originally Posted by Zambo View Post
I can see you feel strongly about this and probably feel frustrated by those not fully converted to the nuclear power option. But i will make a couple of points:

1. I don't find the mention of child labor for solar power materials extraction to be useful. The same states that allow that will also use child labor at some point in the nuclear power plant construction and decommissioning processes.
Not really. Uranium reserves are very high in Australia, Canada and Russia, not places like the Congo. Nor would it be mined in that way.

Yes, mining for materials other than uranium (or thorium) would also need to be done, but at a fraction of what is needed for solar and wind.


Quote:
2. Ontario, and Canada in general has a good GHG emissions record. But is it correct to summarise that for Ontario the removal of the 20% CFPP share of the power generation mix was achieved due to a 50/50 split of increased share of nuclear and solar/wind.

No. The percentage of electricity in Ontario grew from 42% of the total to 60% of the total during that time. While wind and solar did grow from near 0% to 7%, most of that was just exported at a massive loss.

Quote:
3. Wind rather than solar seems more likely the way forward for recyclable energy in Canada (you record this is due to the "greens" for pricing nuclear out of the market). Considering that Canada has such a high level of nuclear and hydro power plants doesn't wind seem a good option for replacing the remaining CFPP, as you mention nuclear power costs seem unlikely to reduce sufficiently in the short to mid term.
No. The price of nuclear power is largely whatever we make it. The Federal Government is pushing small modular reactors. Whether that goes anywhere at this time I don't know.

Wind is absolutely the worst way to try to replace the remaining dirty electricity. It needs natural gas backup and is astonishingly unreliable. The Ontario government had planned on continuing to increase wind and solar even though their own studies showed that this would increase ghg emissions and make the grid less reliable.

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Old 13th February 2019, 07:47 AM   #493
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
I don't doubt it. Try and build a new one somewhere and see what the reaction is.
If that is the case, it only supports my position concerning the massive damage the Greens have done towards the hopes for a sustainable future.
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Old 13th February 2019, 08:54 AM   #494
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Old 13th February 2019, 09:07 AM   #495
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Can't stop the sea level from rising, but we can move away from the coast.

In 2010 39% of the people in the U.S. lived in counties on the coast.

If you think we have an immigration problem now, just wait until 2/5ths of the country has to move in with the other 3/5ths.

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Old 13th February 2019, 09:07 AM   #496
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Originally Posted by Wayward son View Post
I agree. The futility of the environmental movement's desire to take the world in that way was outlined well in the book "Break Through: Why We Can't Leave Saving The Planet To Environmentalists"
about time someone other than only Environmentalists cared about the Environment.
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Old 13th February 2019, 09:16 AM   #497
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Here's my plan

Insulate houses better.
A new Manhattan project aimed at developing safer nuke tech.
Massive implementation of current nuke tech.
Massive investment in nuke fuel recycling.
Stimulate companies to let people work from home
Make airlines pay for pollution making flying 10X more expensive.
Reduce maximum freeway speed to 70 km an hour (just about halves my fuel consumption).
Outlaw single-use plastics.
Government subsidies for developing vat-grown meat.

We've had clean energy tech for 70 years, but we can't use it because Jane Fonda and Michael Douglas made a scary movie. Now the ice is melting, insect populations are disappearing and rainforests are on fire.

The right is in the pockets of the oil industry and the left is publishing pie-in-the-sky proposals. We're screwed.
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Old 13th February 2019, 09:39 AM   #498
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- design cities to reduce the distance stuff and people have to travel
- start a real carbon credit system
- cancel debt to all developing countries to the amount they invest fighting climate change
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Old 13th February 2019, 09:45 AM   #499
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When sea levels rise, my inland property will become far more valuable than the flooded coastal areas where most of the rich people live.

Invest in higher elevation property, sell your coastal property to the blind rich people who ignore global warming warnings.
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Old 13th February 2019, 09:51 AM   #500
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Invest in higher elevation property, sell your coastal property to the blind rich people who ignore global warming warnings.
'Blind' rich people know they will get bailed out.
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Old 13th February 2019, 09:56 AM   #501
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
When sea levels rise, my inland property will become far more valuable than the flooded coastal areas where most of the rich people live.

Invest in higher elevation property, sell your coastal property to the blind rich people who ignore global warming warnings.
You're starting to sound like Lex Luthor.
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Old 13th February 2019, 11:40 AM   #502
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
- cancel debt to all developing countries to the amount they invest fighting climate change
I'm pretty sure most developing countries would rather have the debt and keep investing in development of their industrial base. Cleaning up pollution and restructuring development loans can be done once they've taken a seat at the big kids' table.
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Old 13th February 2019, 11:48 AM   #503
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm pretty sure most developing countries would rather have the debt and keep investing in development of their industrial base. Cleaning up pollution and restructuring development loans can be done once they've taken a seat at the big kids' table.
I don't think so.
You can invest in your industry in a climate-conscious way: replacing high-pollution factories with clean ones etc.
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Old 13th February 2019, 12:11 PM   #504
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Guaranteeing economic security for all who are unable or unwilling to work.


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Old 13th February 2019, 12:29 PM   #505
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
- design cities to reduce the distance stuff and people have to travel
- start a real carbon credit system
- cancel debt to all developing countries to the amount they invest fighting climate change
Last two I agree with, first one is WTF unrelisitic.
What are you going to do, uproot millions of people and move them to a new city.
I would say improving methods of transportation to be more "green" is a lot more realistic then massive transfer of population..which you would need a totalarian government to carry out anyway.
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Old 13th February 2019, 01:49 PM   #506
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Originally Posted by Wayward son View Post
If that is the case, it only supports my position concerning the massive damage the Greens have done towards the hopes for a sustainable future.
The greens didn't have to do anything. People have been wary of nuclear power since days of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
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Old 13th February 2019, 02:21 PM   #507
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm pretty sure most developing countries would rather have the debt and keep investing in development of their industrial base. Cleaning up pollution and restructuring development loans can be done once they've taken a seat at the big kids' table.
Cancelling the debt in line with investing in development of their environmentally conscious industrial base is worth considering. They get to cancel their debt, and build an industrial base powered by renewables.
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Old 13th February 2019, 02:35 PM   #508
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
The greens didn't have to do anything. People have been wary of nuclear power since days of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
Chernobyl, Three Mile Island, Windscale and Fukushima really didn't help build trust in the nuclear industry's safety skills either.
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Old 13th February 2019, 02:47 PM   #509
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
Guaranteeing economic security for all who are unable or unwilling to work.


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Clearly a priority in the face of climate catastrophe. And a surefire way to get both sides of the political spectrum on board. Clever.

Hey guys, California is on fire, Miami is about to drown and there are a couple of million people who would rather not work. This is going to be expensive, but it will be worth it!
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Old 13th February 2019, 02:49 PM   #510
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
When sea levels rise, my inland property will become far more valuable than the flooded coastal areas where most of the rich people live.

Invest in higher elevation property, sell your coastal property to the blind rich people who ignore global warming warnings.
The bad news: I live in the Netherlands
The good news: I'm on a slightly elevated piece of land, so I and a couple of neighbours will have our own Island!
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Old 13th February 2019, 02:53 PM   #511
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
- design cities to reduce the distance stuff and people have to travel
- start a real carbon credit system
- cancel debt to all developing countries to the amount they invest fighting climate change
Good ones.

European cities are walkable. I don't know if US cities could be made that way. Everything seems to be built for transport by car.
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Old 13th February 2019, 03:02 PM   #512
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Cancelling the debt in line with investing in development of their environmentally conscious industrial base is worth considering. They get to cancel their debt, and build an industrial base powered by renewables.
Canceling debts sounds great for countries, but what about the lenders?
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Old 13th February 2019, 03:04 PM   #513
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Originally Posted by Guybrush Threepwood View Post
Chernobyl, Three Mile Island, Windscale and Fukushima really didn't help build trust in the nuclear industry's safety skills either.
It's weird that the Pinto didn't erode trust in cars like Chernobyl did. The loss in trust is due to the shock value of the accident, not the actual safety of the technology. Blame the Soviets for spoiling the whole thing for us.
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Old 13th February 2019, 03:17 PM   #514
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Originally Posted by Guybrush Threepwood View Post
Chernobyl, Three Mile Island, Windscale and Fukushima really didn't help build trust in the nuclear industry's safety skills either.
Huge cost overruns pushed onto consumers haven't helped build trust in the nuclear industry either.

When all factors are considered it's not looking good for nuclear:-

New IAEA Energy Projections See Possible Shrinking Role for Nuclear Power
Quote:
Nuclear power’s electricity generating capacity risks shrinking in the coming decades as ageing reactors are retired and the industry struggles with reduced competitiveness, according to a new IAEA report.

Over the short term, the low price of natural gas, the impact of renewable energy sources on electricity prices, and national nuclear policies in several countries following the accident at Japan’s Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Plant in 2011 are expected to continue weighing on nuclear power’s growth prospects, according to the report. In addition, the nuclear power industry faces increased construction times and costs due to heightened safety requirements, challenges in deploying advanced technologies and other factors...

Overall, the new projections suggest that nuclear power may struggle to maintain its current place in the world’s energy mix. In the low case to 2030, the projections show nuclear electricity generating capacity falling by more than 10%...

Longer term, generating capacity declines to 2040 in the low case before rebounding to 2030 levels by mid-century, when nuclear is seen providing 2.8% of global generating capacity compared with 5.7% today.
That last figure should give everyone pause. Nuclear is struggling to provide even a miserable 5.7% of global capacity, so imagine what would be needed to make it the 'cornerstone' of energy production! If you think safety concerns and waste disposal are a problem now...
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Old 13th February 2019, 03:28 PM   #515
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
about time someone other than only Environmentalists cared about the Environment.
The environmental movement has been hijacked by the socialists and communists as long as I can remember. It was being discussed at least as far back as the late 1970's and early 1980's.

Since then is was never actually about the environment ever, but rather how to gain support for socialism and communism. This Green New Deal is a prime example of that actually. The job guarantee, Basic income, and universal health care provisions of the GND is proof of that.

It's nothing more than old fashioned "kiss the baby" politics, restyled for modern consumption.

In the old days they would proclaim awww look at him. He cares for the children, we must vote for him. Later they said, awww look at him. He wants to save the whales, we must vote for him. And now awww look at her. She will save us from global warming, we must vote for her.

Except it never is about the cuteness, it's about hiding the true purpose behind the cuteness. So people that really do want to save the children, save the whales, and save the world from global warming get tricked into supporting a whole lot of other policies they may or may not agree with at all!

And in this case anyone showing opposition to the Job guarantee, Basic income, and Universal health care provisions, will instead be proclaimed to be anti-environment, or causing global warming. Like somehow they time traveled back to the beginning of human civilization and started all this mess on purpose.

As illogical as that may be just look at your own post! You just made the exact same error in assuming all political opposition to environmentalists was against the environment!
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Old 13th February 2019, 03:31 PM   #516
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
That was pretty much where I was going. In those places where you need a lot of energy in one spot, you either deal with increased cost due to transmission losses (your first option using a distributed grid) or you need something local that puts out a lot of power.

I agree, solar and wind won't replace all our needs. I think they'd be fine for a large part of our residential and light commercial use, but industrial and heavy usage areas are still going to need something more.
Potentially, every house could meet 100% of its power needs with solar and wind with storage batteries for down times. For starters, the house designs themselves can all but eliminate heating and cooling requirements. There are houses right now that are not only 100% self sufficient, but that actually export their excess energy back onto the grid.

This is a solar powered luxury home here in NZ that even has its own hydro power system as a back up...

https://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/h...olar-and-hydro
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Old 13th February 2019, 03:48 PM   #517
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Potentially, every house could meet 100% of its power needs with solar and wind with storage batteries for down times. For starters, the house designs themselves can all but eliminate heating and cooling requirements. There are houses right now that are not only 100% self sufficient, but that actually export their excess energy back onto the grid.

This is a solar powered luxury home here in NZ that even has its own hydro power system as a back up...

https://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/h...olar-and-hydro
Quote:
The 10kW solar power system incorporates 45 solar panels, most of which are mounted on the roof of a large shed a short distance from the house. The house itself has just four solar panels that provide the hot water for the house, and heat the swimming pool.

There is also 80kW of battery storage, a hydro variable wattage generator and a 10kW back-up generator. While there are several streams on the property, just one is used for the hydro system. Water is dammed and then falls 12m into a turbo system that generates power.
All we have to do is outfit every home in the world with one of those. What are we waiting for?


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Old 13th February 2019, 03:51 PM   #518
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
It's weird that the Pinto didn't erode trust in cars
But it did. You think manufacturers would be stuffing cars full of advanced safety features if customers didn't want them? Whats the reason many people choose SUVs over more efficient small cars? Safety.

It's the same with nuclear. Just as a modern SUV costs more due to all the safety features built into it, so it costs more to make a modern nuclear reactor safe.

What's interesting about the Pinto is that it actually wasn't any worse than other 'subcompact' cars of the era.

What Made the Pinto Such a Controversial Car
Quote:
The Pinto became known as the subcompact car that Ford sold while ignoring major safety defects. But was that just a false narrative?

...contrary to popular belief, the Pinto was in the middle of fatality rates for cars of its type. On the top of the list at the time was the Volkswagen Beetle. There was also no significant difference in the rate of fatalities caused by rear end collisions, the structural defect for which Ford paid a heavy price.

One largely unexplored issue was the safety record of subcompacts in general. Drivers and passengers in such cars in the late 1970s, including the Pinto, but also including foreign imports, were twice as likely to die in crashes as those driving larger cars.
The truth is, the safety technology of small cars in general was poor, and consumers' trust in them did erode.

Quote:
Blame the Soviets for spoiling the whole thing for us.
And the Japanese, and...

The more nuclear plants are built the more likely it is that another incident will occur, especially if corners are cut to get costs down (the only reason the nuclear industry has such a good safety record is that they work very hard to maintain it). Now imagine hundreds of plants being built in Third World countries with no oversight, and Chernobyl may look mild in comparison. What's worse is that when a nuclear plant blows it doesn't just affect the immediate surroundings. We may not care about a few Africans, but when the fallout reaches us it will be a different story.
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Old 13th February 2019, 04:00 PM   #519
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
But it did. You think manufacturers would be stuffing cars full of advanced safety features if customers didn't want them? Whats the reason many people choose SUVs over more efficient small cars? Safety.

It's the same with nuclear. Just as a modern SUV costs more due to all the safety features built into it, so it costs more to make a modern nuclear reactor safe.
But new safety features didn't make all cars unaffordable.
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Old 13th February 2019, 04:01 PM   #520
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
The environmental movement has been hijacked by the socialists and communists as long as I can remember. It was being discussed at least as far back as the late 1970's and early 1980's.



Since then is was never actually about the environment ever, but rather how to gain support for socialism and communism. This Green New Deal is a prime example of that actually. The job guarantee, Basic income, and universal health care provisions of the GND is proof of that.



It's nothing more than old fashioned "kiss the baby" politics, restyled for modern consumption.



In the old days they would proclaim awww look at him. He cares for the children, we must vote for him. Later they said, awww look at him. He wants to save the whales, we must vote for him. And now awww look at her. She will save us from global warming, we must vote for her.



Except it never is about the cuteness, it's about hiding the true purpose behind the cuteness. So people that really do want to save the children, save the whales, and save the world from global warming get tricked into supporting a whole lot of other policies they may or may not agree with at all!



And in this case anyone showing opposition to the Job guarantee, Basic income, and Universal health care provisions, will instead be proclaimed to be anti-environment, or causing global warming. Like somehow they time traveled back to the beginning of human civilization and started all this mess on purpose.



As illogical as that may be just look at your own post! You just made the exact same error in assuming all political opposition to environmentalists was against the environment!
It hasn't been hijacked by the extreme Left. They take a ride on whatever looks convenient but the worst environmental disasters have been in the communist countries.

The conversation movement is experiencing a considerable rise in support from conservatives, of all people, who want to conserve what we have now.
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