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Tags Andrew McCabe , donald trump , George Papadopoulos , Michael Cohen , Mueller investigation , Paul Manafort , Robert Mueller , Trump controversies , Trump-Russia connections

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Old 2nd March 2019, 10:00 AM   #681
newyorkguy
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
“Plausible Deniability” is a tactic that may be sought by those in power...
I recall stories of Ronald Reagan getting up and leaving meetings when Iran-Contra was going to be discussed. He wanted to preserve his deniability.
  • Congress: Mr. President, at the January 12th meeting, was a quid pro quo with Iran and the Contras discussed?
  • President Reagan: No, not to my knowledge.

Works better than Roger Stone's standard denial: "I do no not recall that conversation." Hey, it could have happened, I just don't remember. Sor-ree!
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Old 2nd March 2019, 10:27 AM   #682
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
I recall stories of Ronald Reagan getting up and leaving meetings when Iran-Contra was going to be discussed. He wanted to preserve his deniability.
  • Congress: Mr. President, at the January 12th meeting, was a quid pro quo with Iran and the Contras discussed?
  • President Reagan: No, not to my knowledge.

Works better than Roger Stone's standard denial: "I do no not recall that conversation." Hey, it could have happened, I just don't remember. Sor-ree!
I'll NEVER forget Oliver North talking about how they used "plausible deniability" as in the course of performing actions that were strictly forbidden by Congress. Cohen said Trump had a way of conveying what he wanted done. Basically it was a wink and a nod.

Trump clearly did that to provide himself with plausible deniability. The problem though is that deniability really isn't that plausible.
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Old 2nd March 2019, 11:05 AM   #683
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I'll NEVER forget Oliver North talking about how they used "plausible deniability" as in the course of performing actions that were strictly forbidden by Congress. Cohen said Trump had a way of conveying what he wanted done. Basically it was a wink and a nod.

Trump clearly did that to provide himself with plausible deniability. The problem though is that deniability really isn't that plausible.

You think that Trump having no idea what was going on in his own administration isn’t plausible?
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Old 2nd March 2019, 11:41 AM   #684
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
You think that Trump having no idea what was going on in his own administration isn’t plausible?
In his campaign you mean.

Do I think it's plausible that Trump had no idea what Senior advisors including his campaign manager Manafort, his deputy campaign manager Gates, his own son Don Jr. and long time business associate Roger Stone were doing? No, I do not. Especially when you consider that Trump in a speech the next day alluded to a surprise about Hillary and those emails. You may believe in clairvoyance, but I don't.
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Old 2nd March 2019, 12:16 PM   #685
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
In his campaign you mean.

Do I think it's plausible that Trump had no idea what Senior advisors including his campaign manager Manafort, his deputy campaign manager Gates, his own son Don Jr. and long time business associate Roger Stone were doing? No, I do not. Especially when you consider that Trump in a speech the next day allude to a surprise about Hillary and those emails. You may believe in clairvoyance, but I don't.
I agree with you on most of that, but I do think it's plausible the Manafort was working his own side deals without Trump (or anyone else on the team) knowing it.
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Old 2nd March 2019, 12:25 PM   #686
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Originally Posted by Iamafalser View Post
I mostly just lurk here for entertainment purposes but I can't figure something out:

On the one hand, Trump is an out of control idiot/crazy person who acts solely on impulse without thinking things through, right?

Yet at the same time he's also some sort of criminal mastermind who's been engaged in all sorts of criminal activity like money laundering or whatever for decades and being Putin's bitch without ever leaving a shred of legally incriminating evidence behind.

I'm sorry but these two scenarios simply do not seem at all congruous to me.
You think it takes a great mind to commit crimes? Also, what makes you think there isn't evidence?

Trump doesn't use email or text. This is 2019. Who does that today and why?

Seems to me, there is only two reasons for that. The first is he is beyond stupid. But using Twitter is as about as complex as testing someone so it seems highly unlikely that he's beyond stupid. But that doesn't make him smart. The second and most plausible reason is that he is trying to leave as little a trail as possible. Does that make him smart or does that make him paranoid?
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Old 2nd March 2019, 12:31 PM   #687
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Originally Posted by dasmiller View Post
I agree with you on most of that, but I do think it's plausible the Manafort was working his own side deals without Trump (or anyone else on the team) knowing it.
Still not plausible. Don Jr. was there and he was the one who received the email and the meeting took place one floor down from Trump's office. Finally, that doesn't explain what Trump said in his speech.
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Old 2nd March 2019, 12:38 PM   #688
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Still not plausible. Don Jr. was there and he was the one who received the email and the meeting took place one floor down from Trump's office. Finally, that doesn't explain what Trump said in his speech.
If Junior thought he was going to get dirt on Hillary, it's unimaginable that he wouldn't run to Daddy for a pat on the head.
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Old 2nd March 2019, 12:45 PM   #689
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
If Junior thought he was going to get dirt on Hillary, it's unimaginable that he wouldn't run to Daddy for a pat on the head.
an old version of the timeline from earlier

Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Time to put in the timeline again...
No new additions

Mar 19 Podesta email hacked
Apr 19 DCLeaks.com registered
May 3 Trump becomes presumptive nominee
June 3 Goldstone contacts Trump Jr. to setup meeting which promises to discuss Clinton
June 7 17:16 Don Jr. confirms meeting w/ Russian lawyer Natalia Veselnitskaya
June 7 21:13Trump Sr promises press conf the next week with Clinton dirt
June 8 Trump posts link to DCLeaks
June 9 Trump Jr, Kushner, Manafort meet with Russian operative
June 12 Assange announces Clinton emails
June 27 Hacked emails posted to DCLeaks
July 11 Trump/Manafort nix pro-Ukranian plank in GOP platform (and lie about it)
Late JulyUnusual activity noticed between Russian bank and Trump server
Aug 21 Roger Stone writes "it will soon be Podesta's time in the barrel"
Oct -7 Pussygate video released
Oct 7 Wikileaks releases Podesta emails (an hour later)
2017 - MayDOJ drops money laundering case against client of Natalia Veselnitskaya
July-08Don Jr issues statement* saying the meeting was about orphanages
July-09 NYT prepares to release story about the meeting supposedly about dirt on Clinton
July-09 Donald Trump Jr. issues a new statement* changing his story from less than 24 hours earlier, and accepting that it was about getting dirt on clinton but that nothing came of it:
July-10Don Jr hires lawyer
July-12 Democrats ask questions about the DoJ dropping the money lanudering case

* " “It was a short introductory meeting. I asked Jared and Paul to stop by. We primarily discussed a program about the adoption of Russian children that was active and popular with American families years ago and was since ended by the Russian government, but it was not a campaign issue at the time and there was no follow up… I was asked to attend the meeting by an acquaintance, but was not told the name of the person I would be meeting with beforehand.”"


*“I was asked to have a meeting by an acquaintance I knew from the 2013 Miss Universe pageant with an individual who I was told might have information helpful to the campaign. I was not told her name prior to the meeting. I asked Jared and Paul to attend, but told them nothing of the substance. We had a meeting in June 2016. After pleasantries were exchanged, the woman stated that she had information that individuals connected to Russia were funding the Democratic National Committee and supporting Ms. Clinton. Her statements were vague, ambiguous and made no sense. No details or supporting information was provided or even offered. It quickly became clear that she had no meaningful information. She then changed subjects and began discussing the adoption of Russian children and mentioned the Magnitsky Act. It became clear to me that this was the true agenda all along and that the claims of potentially helpful information were a pretext for the meeting. I interrupted and advised her that my father was not an elected official, but rather a private citizen, and that her comments and concerns were better addressed if and when he held public office. The meeting lasted approximately 20 to 30 minutes. As it ended, my acquaintance apologized for taking up our time. That was the end of it and there was no further contact or follow-up of any kind. My father knew nothing of the meeting or these events.”




So yes, pretty unbelievable
Note what I had highlighted in my original quote.
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Old 2nd March 2019, 12:50 PM   #690
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Still not plausible. Don Jr. was there and he was the one who received the email and the meeting took place one floor down from Trump's office. Finally, that doesn't explain what Trump said in his speech.
Oh, my remark was more general. Yes, I don't think it's plausible that Trump was unaware of that meeting.

I'm just allowing that when dealing with the Russians, Manafort may, at times, been acting in his own interests rather than the Trump campaign's.
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Old 2nd March 2019, 12:54 PM   #691
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
If Junior thought he was going to get dirt on Hillary, it's unimaginable that he wouldn't run to Daddy for a pat on the head.
Exactly.
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Old 2nd March 2019, 01:01 PM   #692
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
It depends on one'e expectations whether they will be met.

BTW, that article reads like the typical GOP party line: collusion isn't a crime? We resolved that a year ago. If it wasn't the party line he would have referred to conspiracy and stop repeating the collusion nonsense.

If Mueller can tie Trump's actions such as lifting sanctions and encouraging favoring Russia in the Ukraine actions the US takes, showing policy reversals and Russian payoffs I don't think that is so far fetched.
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Old 2nd March 2019, 01:06 PM   #693
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Melanie Melania is now a witness:
Trump says he told Melania that he was going to fire James Comey because: "He's bad. He's a bad, bad guy." He says again that he thought it would be a popular move with both parties. "So bipartisan."
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Old 2nd March 2019, 01:06 PM   #694
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
It depends on one'e expectations whether they will be met.
Trumpers seem to be setting it up so that if Mueller doesn't have a tape of Trump talking to Putin about interfering with the election, then we're obliged to ignore anything else Mueller finds.
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Old 2nd March 2019, 01:39 PM   #695
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
I recall stories of Ronald Reagan getting up and leaving meetings when Iran-Contra was going to be discussed. He wanted to preserve his deniability.
  • Congress: Mr. President, at the January 12th meeting, was a quid pro quo with Iran and the Contras discussed?
  • President Reagan: No, not to my knowledge.

Works better than Roger Stone's standard denial: "I do no not recall that conversation." Hey, it could have happened, I just don't remember. Sor-ree!
I think Trump tries to put a barrier between himself and the blatant conspiracy, but his NPD makes him incapable of maintaining the barrier. An example was writing DonnyJr's excuse for the Trump Tower meeting. There are more examples.
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Old 2nd March 2019, 01:42 PM   #696
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I'll NEVER forget Oliver North talking about how they used "plausible deniability" as in the course of performing actions that were strictly forbidden by Congress. Cohen said Trump had a way of conveying what he wanted done. Basically it was a wink and a nod.

Trump clearly did that to provide himself with plausible deniability. The problem though is that deniability really isn't that plausible.
I find it curious Trump never told Cohen directly what to do. It's like Cohen never was a true trusted insider.
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Old 2nd March 2019, 01:46 PM   #697
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
You think that Trump having no idea what was going on in his own administration isn’t plausible?
Yes but selectively so. When his actual expert staff were going behind his back, no doubt they hid it from him. But the criminal stuff, like paying Daniels and McDugal off, and money deals like the Trump Tower Moscow, nah, Trump was well aware of what was going on there.
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Old 2nd March 2019, 01:51 PM   #698
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Originally Posted by dasmiller View Post
I agree with you on most of that, but I do think it's plausible the Manafort was working his own side deals without Trump (or anyone else on the team) knowing it.
It makes one wonder if those disclosures of selling influence didn't piss Trump off to find out and that's one reason a pardon has not yet materialized. Maybe Trump didn't know about or get a cut from those deals.
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Old 2nd March 2019, 01:54 PM   #699
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
You think it takes a great mind to commit crimes? Also, what makes you think there isn't evidence?

Trump doesn't use email or text. This is 2019. Who does that today and why?

Seems to me, there is only two reasons for that. The first is he is beyond stupid. But using Twitter is as about as complex as testing someone so it seems highly unlikely that he's beyond stupid. But that doesn't make him smart. The second and most plausible reason is that he is trying to leave as little a trail as possible. Does that make him smart or does that make him paranoid?
That criminal mastermind is quite the straw man.

I think Trump is applying stuff he's used to from a long history of money laundering.
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Old 2nd March 2019, 01:56 PM   #700
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
He's a "bad, bad guy"? It is statements like this that make me think Trump is an idiot. What the hell does that mean?

To Trump, anyone who doesn't put Trump's needs paramount makes someone bad. This is why he keeps asking for declarations of loyalty. He doesn't understand that career professionals are not loyal to people but to principles.
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Old 2nd March 2019, 02:01 PM   #701
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
It depends on one'e expectations whether they will be met.

BTW, that article reads like the typical GOP party line: collusion isn't a crime? We resolved that a year ago. If it wasn't the party line he would have referred to conspiracy and stop repeating the collusion nonsense.

If Mueller can tie Trump's actions such as lifting sanctions and encouraging favoring Russia in the Ukraine actions the US takes, showing policy reversals and Russian payoffs I don't think that is so far fetched.
Actually, see Jimbob's list/timeline above.
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Old 2nd March 2019, 02:13 PM   #702
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
That criminal mastermind is quite the straw man.

I think Trump is applying stuff he's used to from a long history of money laundering.
I agree. It's a false dichotomy.
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Old 2nd March 2019, 02:30 PM   #703
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I find it curious Trump never told Cohen directly what to do. It's like Cohen never was a true trusted insider.
Yes and no. Cohen had to be trusted to do the things he did.

But it was a selective trust. I don't think Trump thought Cohen was very smart. And from what I've read, Trump was a bully and often mocked and belittled Cohen in front of others. It is like owning a pit bull that you mistreat. You always wonder in the back of your mind that maybe some day that dog might turn on you.
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Old 2nd March 2019, 02:44 PM   #704
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
That criminal mastermind is quite the straw man.

I think Trump is applying stuff he's used to from a long history of money laundering.
Personally, I don't think Trump went to the Russian mob with his own plans : they came to Trump because he's a useful idiot they could get a cheap deal from. I doubt Trump had much clue about what was actually going on. Heck, the deals probably cost him money in the long term.
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Old 2nd March 2019, 02:46 PM   #705
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
But it was a selective trust. I don't think Trump thought Cohen was very smart. And from what I've read, Trump was a bully and often mocked and belittled Cohen in front of others. It is like owning a pit bull that you mistreat. You always wonder in the back of your mind that maybe some day that dog might turn on you.
Nothing quite says "loser" like getting savaged by your own dog.
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Old 2nd March 2019, 05:55 PM   #706
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
Personally, I don't think Trump went to the Russian mob with his own plans : they came to Trump because he's a useful idiot they could get a cheap deal from. I doubt Trump had much clue about what was actually going on. Heck, the deals probably cost him money in the long term.
I think it's more like gravity. Trump just falls down to the lowest level that will accept him and his grifting ways
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Old 2nd March 2019, 06:07 PM   #707
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
In his campaign you mean.

Do I think it's plausible that Trump had no idea what Senior advisors including his campaign manager Manafort, his deputy campaign manager Gates, his own son Don Jr. and long time business associate Roger Stone were doing? No, I do not. Especially when you consider that Trump in a speech the next day alluded to a surprise about Hillary and those emails. You may believe in clairvoyance, but I don't.
It's also worth pointing out that everybody who has flipped - most recently Cohen less than a week ago - have said that Trump knows everything that goes on in his organisations. That nothing happens without his knowledge and approval.
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Old 2nd March 2019, 06:19 PM   #708
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
It depends on one'e expectations whether they will be met.

BTW, that article reads like the typical GOP party line: collusion isn't a crime? We resolved that a year ago. If it wasn't the party line he would have referred to conspiracy and stop repeating the collusion nonsense.

If Mueller can tie Trump's actions such as lifting sanctions and encouraging favoring Russia in the Ukraine actions the US takes, showing policy reversals and Russian payoffs I don't think that is so far fetched.
Mariotti is a Democrat, has written plenty of articles and tonnes on twitter that is critical of Trump, and is the co-host of a podcast that almost exclusively deals with Trump's crimes, lies, and policy decisions that suggest he's a foreign agent. He's also a former federal prosecutor who has won several high-profile cases, so he knows what he's talking about when it comes to legal matters.
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Old 2nd March 2019, 06:20 PM   #709
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
Seems obvious what his thought process was based on what he said at the time. He figured (because he's dumber than a bag of hammers) that Republicans would be happy because the investigation would go away, and that Democrats would be happy because they were pissed at Comey for interfering in the campaign by announcing the reopening of the Clinton investigation a week before Election Day.

Hell the idiot's original stated reason for firing Comey was that he was unfair to Hillary. Nobody believed it at the time, but considering Cohen's testimony the other day that Trump never expected to win the election, maybe he actually was vindictively punishing Comey for helping him become president. (In addition to thinking it would stop the investigation into his own collusion and other crimes, of course).
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Old 2nd March 2019, 06:35 PM   #710
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Mariotti is a Democrat, has written plenty of articles and tonnes on twitter that is critical of Trump, and is the co-host of a podcast that almost exclusively deals with Trump's crimes, lies, and policy decisions that suggest he's a foreign agent. He's also a former federal prosecutor who has won several high-profile cases, so he knows what he's talking about when it comes to legal matters.
I said "reads like".

Given he's a Democrat that puts him in the Pelosi corner (at least her last stated position): impeachment is a bad approach.
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Old 2nd March 2019, 06:37 PM   #711
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
Bet Trump regrets that "Russer thing" discussion with Lester Holt.
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Old 2nd March 2019, 06:41 PM   #712
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Yes and no. Cohen had to be trusted to do the things he did.

But it was a selective trust. I don't think Trump thought Cohen was very smart. And from what I've read, Trump was a bully and often mocked and belittled Cohen in front of others. It is like owning a pit bull that you mistreat. You always wonder in the back of your mind that maybe some day that dog might turn on you.
Selective as in Cohen was Trump's chump. Trump seems to have a lot of those.
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Old 2nd March 2019, 06:43 PM   #713
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
It's also worth pointing out that everybody who has flipped - most recently Cohen less than a week ago - have said that Trump knows everything that goes on in his organisations. That nothing happens without his knowledge and approval.
But plenty without his understanding.
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Old 2nd March 2019, 10:41 PM   #714
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Selective as in Cohen was Trump's chump. Trump seems to have a lot of those.
He must be the most unlucky executive or the most incompetent. So many rats.
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Old 2nd March 2019, 10:56 PM   #715
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
He must be the most unlucky executive or the most incompetent. So many rats.
I think Trump attracts groupies that want to be in the in crowd.
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Old 2nd March 2019, 11:32 PM   #716
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I think Trump attracts groupies that want to be in the in crowd.
What sort of groupies are they? Most sane people would run a mile.
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Old 2nd March 2019, 11:44 PM   #717
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
What sort of groupies are they? Most sane people would run a mile.
People who are enamored by his facade and I think 'not quite sane' applies.
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Old 3rd March 2019, 02:36 AM   #718
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I find it curious Trump never told Cohen directly what to do. It's like Cohen never was a true trusted insider.
Ever heard of King Henry II of England, and Thomas Becket, the Archbishop of Canterbury?

After Henry II uttered the words "Will no one rid me of this turbulent priest?", four of his knights promptly travelled from Normandy to Canterbury and murdered Becket. This was probably the first historical recorded instance of political "plausible deniability".
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Old 3rd March 2019, 02:50 AM   #719
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
People who are enamored by his facade and I think 'not quite sane' applies.
Serial killers like Ted Bundy, John Wayne Gacy and Jeffrey Dahmer had groupies....

https://www.thecrimemag.com/5-serial...sive-admirers/

.....why not Der Trumpenführer?
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Old 3rd March 2019, 02:59 AM   #720
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I said "reads like".
You also said "If it wasn't the party line he would have referred to conspiracy and stop repeating the collusion nonsense."

Quote:
Given he's a Democrat that puts him in the Pelosi corner (at least her last stated position): impeachment is a bad approach.
Nope: https://www.politico.com/magazine/st...-russia-216532

Quote:
Even if Mueller concludes that he could prove beyond a reasonable doubt in court that Trump was guilty of obstructing justice, I believe he will ultimately present the matter to Congress for potential impeachment instead. After all, according to the New York Times, former independent counsel Kenneth Starr possessed a legal memo concluding that he had the power to indict former President Bill Clinton but did not do so, ultimately choosing to present the matter to Congress. I think Mueller would likely do the same thing, because it’s the more prudential approach given that it’s an open legal question whether a sitting president can be indicted.
You should try not to see this as a partisan issue, and if you want to understand what Mariotti's position is on any particular matter you'd do better to search for what he's said about it rather than making assumptions based on what "side" you imagine him to belong to.
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