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Tags Andrew McCabe , donald trump , George Papadopoulos , Michael Cohen , Mueller investigation , Paul Manafort , Robert Mueller , Trump controversies , Trump-Russia connections

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Old 16th March 2019, 02:22 PM   #1201
Delphic Oracle
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We have the indictments, the plea deals, the filings implicating "Individual Number 1" and we all know exactly who that is.

There's a difference between uninformed supposition and well-informed deduction.
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Old 16th March 2019, 02:28 PM   #1202
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
We have the indictments, the plea deals,
None involving collaboration between the Trump campaign and Russia.

Quote:
the filings implicating "Individual Number 1" and we all know exactly who that is.
Are you talking about Cohen and the payments to Stormy? Because those payments weren't a crime. I know the theory that they should have been declared as a campaign expenditure, but that theory doesn't hold water. Got anything else?
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Old 16th March 2019, 02:29 PM   #1203
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Those two words really do not belong together. Make up your mind. Is it a fact or is it your speculation?
Er, it can be a fact that something is probably true. It's a fact that the next time I roll a die, the number rolled will probably not be one.

I think it's reasonable to say that Putin probably didn't expect Trump to win. Indeed, there are enough reasons for this that one might call it a fact.

In any case, I wouldn't hang a rebuttal on this mixing of "it is a fact that probably X" is nonsensical. The meaning is reasonably clear. It means "probably X".
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Old 16th March 2019, 02:30 PM   #1204
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I wasn't aware this was a controversial claim. Which part specifically do you want a cite for?
Something that shows this is actually relevant to Mueller's investigation of Trump.

Something besides The Federalist and other right wing efforts to discredit Mueller that support the claim Mueller did any more than pursue a suspect Mueller later dropped.
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Old 16th March 2019, 02:31 PM   #1205
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Something that shows this is actually relevant to Mueller's investigation of Trump.
Are you uncertain of any of the facts of the Hatfill case as I described it?
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Old 16th March 2019, 02:46 PM   #1206
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Are you talking about Cohen and the payments to Stormy? Because those payments weren't a crime. I know the theory that they should have been declared as a campaign expenditure, but that theory doesn't hold water. Got anything else?
Cohen pleaded guilty to a crime that wasn't even a crime, and is going to jail for not committing a crime.

Got it!

(Oh and before you try the old chestnut that he is going to jail for those other crimes, he still pleaded guilty to making illegal campaign contributions, and the guilty plea still contributes to his sentence.)
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Old 16th March 2019, 03:06 PM   #1207
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Cohen pleaded guilty to a crime that wasn't even a crime, and is going to jail for not committing a crime.

Got it!

(Oh and before you try the old chestnut that he is going to jail for those other crimes, he still pleaded guilty to making illegal campaign contributions, and the guilty plea still contributes to his sentence.)
Something I have learned from this forum - In the US legal system there are judges, lawyers, and other people educated in the theory and practise of law. These people are charged with the day to day operations of the legal system. There are also lay persons who know the law better than anyone employed in the field, and are thrilled with the opportunity to advise those working in the field that they just don't understand the law. These people only impose themselves when they notice a serious misapplicatiion of the law. The judges and lawyers are always willing to accept that advice and adjust their methods and practises accordingly. Thus, a judge will soon realize that Cohen was convicted of a non-crime. He will be freed and paid millions in compensation along with a sincere apology. Just you wait and see.
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Last edited by Steve; 16th March 2019 at 03:07 PM. Reason: Typos
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Old 16th March 2019, 03:11 PM   #1208
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Something I have learned from this forum - In the US legal system there are judges, lawyers, and other people educated in the theory and practise of law. These people are charged with the day to day operations of the legal system. There are also lay persons who know the law better than anyone employed in the field, and are thrilled with the opportunity to advise those working in the field that they just don't understand the law. These people only impose themselves when they notice a serious misapplicatiion of the law. The judges and lawyers are always willing to accept that advice and adjust their methods and practises accordingly. Thus, a judge will soon realize that Cohen was convicted of a non-crime. He will be freed and paid millions in compensation along with a sincere apology. Just you wait and see.
I think we can safely call that post a "cainism"
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Old 16th March 2019, 03:13 PM   #1209
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I think we can safely call that post a "cainism"
What, me? Cain is the master. I am not worthy.
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Old 16th March 2019, 03:19 PM   #1210
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Cohen pleaded guilty to a crime that wasn't even a crime, and is going to jail for not committing a crime.

Got it!
Pleading to that was part of a package. You think Cohen gives a **** about what exactly he pled to? Of course he doesn't. He cares about the sentence. If he can get a lower sentence by including a plea to something that isn't a crime, then of course he's going to do that.

Quote:
(Oh and before you try the old chestnut that he is going to jail for those other crimes, he still pleaded guilty to making illegal campaign contributions, and the guilty plea still contributes to his sentence.)
He doesn't get to pick and choose which ones he'll plead to and which ones he will contest. It's a package deal. There is no a la carte menu.
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Old 16th March 2019, 03:24 PM   #1211
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Something I have learned from this forum - In the US legal system there are judges, lawyers, and other people educated in the theory and practise of law. These people are charged with the day to day operations of the legal system. There are also lay persons who know the law better than anyone employed in the field, and are thrilled with the opportunity to advise those working in the field that they just don't understand the law. These people only impose themselves when they notice a serious misapplicatiion of the law. The judges and lawyers are always willing to accept that advice and adjust their methods and practises accordingly. Thus, a judge will soon realize that Cohen was convicted of a non-crime. He will be freed and paid millions in compensation along with a sincere apology. Just you wait and see.
Why would the judge care? It's not an issue for him (the sentence isn't out of line with just the other crimes), Cohen isn't going to appeal it because he can't, and no one else can appeal on his behalf because they don't have standing. So it's never going to be contested unless someone tries to prosecute Trump. And at that point, the case against Trump will fall apart just like it did against John Edwards. But that still won't make a difference to Cohen's case.

And it's not like there aren't expert lawyers who have pointed out the problems with this claim against Trump.
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Old 16th March 2019, 03:34 PM   #1212
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Start with the fact that Putin probably expected Hillary to win. Almost everyone did, and with good reason. Why collude with the future loser? Plenty of risk and little upside with that strategy.
Did you forget, already, that Trump had plans to capitalize on a loss? Plans that just happened to align with Putin's goals?
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Old 16th March 2019, 03:38 PM   #1213
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Why would the judge care? It's not an issue for him (the sentence isn't out of line with just the other crimes), Cohen isn't going to appeal it because he can't, and no one else can appeal on his behalf because they don't have standing. So it's never going to be contested unless someone tries to prosecute Trump. And at that point, the case against Trump will fall apart just like it did against John Edwards. But that still won't make a difference to Cohen's case.

And it's not like there aren't expert lawyers who have pointed out the problems with this claim against Trump.
Of course. Judges don't care if defendants in their court are charged with actual crimes or not. Just convict the buggers and sentence them.
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Old 16th March 2019, 03:42 PM   #1214
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Did you forget, already, that Trump had plans to capitalize on a loss?
Are you under the impression that this changes anything I said? It doesn't.

Quote:
Plans that just happened to align with Putin's goals?
I see nothing in your link which suggests any alignment with Putin.
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Old 16th March 2019, 03:44 PM   #1215
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Of course. Judges don't care if defendants in their court are charged with actual crimes or not. Just convict the buggers and sentence them.
Cohen was absolutely guilty of other crimes, there's really no doubt about that. So it's not like the judge is sentencing an innocent man. And as I pointed out, the sentence isn't out of line with the other crimes excluding that one. So what injustice is being done to Cohen? None, really. So why would the judge care? It's not his fight.
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Old 16th March 2019, 04:04 PM   #1216
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Cohen was absolutely guilty of other crimes, there's really no doubt about that. So it's not like the judge is sentencing an innocent man. And as I pointed out, the sentence isn't out of line with the other crimes excluding that one. So what injustice is being done to Cohen? None, really. So why would the judge care? It's not his fight.
A decent judge should care about everything that goes on in their courtroom. Judges do not have "fights" in their courtroom. Ever. You should educate yourself on the role of judges in your legal system.
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Old 16th March 2019, 04:14 PM   #1217
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Why collude with the future loser? Plenty of risk and little upside with that strategy.
And yet, despite your "logic", Russian agents met with Trump agents in Trump Tower. Reality trumps your naïveté.
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Old 16th March 2019, 04:14 PM   #1218
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Trump Tweeted

Spreading the fake and totally discredited Dossier “is unfortunately a very dark stain against John McCain.” Ken Starr, Former Independent Counsel. He had far worse “stains” than this, including thumbs down on repeal and replace after years of campaigning to repeal and replace!

Because the economy is so good, General Motors must get their Lordstown, Ohio, plant open, maybe in a different form or with a new owner, FAST! Toyota is investing 13.5 $Billion in U.S., others likewise. G.M. MUST ACT QUICKLY. Time is of the essence!

Google is helping China and their military, but not the U.S. Terrible! The good news is that they helped Crooked Hillary Clinton, and not Trump....and how did that turn out?
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Old 16th March 2019, 04:15 PM   #1219
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Trump tweeted

How is the Paris Environmental Accord working out for France? After 18 weeks of rioting by the Yellow Vest Protesters, I guess not so well! In the meantime, the United States has gone to the top of all lists on the Environment.
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Old 16th March 2019, 04:17 PM   #1220
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trump Tweeted

Retweets of loads of tweets he made over the last few dat complaining about everything.

He must be running out of words.
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Old 16th March 2019, 04:26 PM   #1221
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Are you under the impression that this changes anything I said? It doesn't.



I see nothing in your link which suggests any alignment with Putin.
You see nothing in the link that would align with -

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Then note that Russia's involvement seems to have been directed mostly at stirring the ****, as they say, rather than trying to achieve any specific wins. Which makes sense, because that advances their aims regardless of the outcome, and the outcome didn't look like it would be a Trump win.
Of course, you might be pointedly forgetting Trump's threats to refuse to concede, frequent bluster about rigged elections, subsequent efforts to set up propaganda outlets anyways, history of championing divisive nonsense, and so much more.
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Old 16th March 2019, 04:43 PM   #1222
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
A decent judge should care about everything that goes on in their courtroom. Judges do not have "fights" in their courtroom. Ever. You should educate yourself on the role of judges in your legal system.
Your idealized vision of how courts should operate has little connection to how they do operate. Judges rarely toss plea deals, even when innocent people are railroaded. And Cohen isn't innocent of the more significant charges against him. The judge doesn't have to protect Cohen. It's not like Cohen doesn't have money to get adequate representation for himself.
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Old 16th March 2019, 04:48 PM   #1223
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
And yet, despite your "logic", Russian agents met with Trump agents in Trump Tower. Reality trumps your naïveté.
Meeting with the Trump campaign isn't illegal. Reality trumps your paranoia.
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Old 16th March 2019, 04:51 PM   #1224
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Meeting with the Trump campaign isn't illegal.
Well, that explains why the meeting was well documented and everyone involved was quite open about it. LOL!
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Old 16th March 2019, 05:05 PM   #1225
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Your idealized vision of how courts should operate has little connection to how they do operate. Judges rarely toss plea deals, even when innocent people are railroaded. And Cohen isn't innocent of the more significant charges against him. The judge doesn't have to protect Cohen. It's not like Cohen doesn't have money to get adequate representation for himself.
Cohen is going to prison because of his crimes. All of them. He is not going to prison for anything that was not a crime. The judge has final responsibility for the sentence, even following a plea deal. A federal judge is going to read the deal for inconsistencies before sentencing. There is nothing idealized about that, merely an expectation that a professional will do their job in a professional manner. If not due to integrity, at least in the interest of covering their own ass.
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Old 16th March 2019, 05:08 PM   #1226
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Cohen is going to prison because of his crimes. All of them. He is not going to prison for anything that was not a crime. The judge has final responsibility for the sentence, even following a plea deal. A federal judge is going to read the deal for inconsistencies before sentencing. There is nothing idealized about that, merely an expectation that a professional will do their job in a professional manner. If not due to integrity, at least in the interest of covering their own ass.
Suppose for the sake of argument that the payments to Stormy were not a crime.

What risk does accepting the plea deal pose to the judge? What negative consequences does he potentially face for doing so?
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Old 16th March 2019, 05:09 PM   #1227
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Well, that explains why the meeting was well documented and everyone involved was quite open about it. LOL!
Lots of legal things are kept secret, for a variety of reasons. Are you actually confused about that?
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Old 16th March 2019, 05:33 PM   #1228
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Well, that explains why the meeting was well documented and everyone involved was quite open about it. LOL!
Of course. The paper trails created by Trump and his cronies over the past five years is impeccable. Any investigation will quickly determine that everything was completely documented and legit. Nobody will ever go to jail because there is no reason to even charge anybody. This vast documentation process proves that Trump, his family, his legal team, his employees, his friends an associates are all completely trustworthy and should not be questioned. The GOP has, without any doubt, selected and elected the finest person ever to be president of your fine country. His selection of people to serve in his cabinet and as his advisors are widely acknowledged as astoundingly knowledgeablr and honest.

Because of this, whenever a potential problem is raised the appropriate documents are immediately produced along with the standard defence of "technically that was not illegal". This is immediately an unquestioningly accepted by all as proof of complete innocence.

All this combines to provide the current state of the world where political leaders of all countries are lining up to bask in the glory that is Trump's smile. And nobody would ever think of laughing at him!!!!



Oh geese, I got a little excited there.

Actually Trump is a liar and a criminal and so are all his associates. The arguments from his supporters about whether most things he does are illegal or just unethical but not actually illegal are really, really pathetic.
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Old 16th March 2019, 05:40 PM   #1229
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Suppose for the sake of argument that the payments to Stormy were not a crime.

What risk does accepting the plea deal pose to the judge? What negative consequences does he potentially face for doing so?
Why would we need to suppose that. You have stated in this thread that they were not a crime.

There may not be any tangible negative consequences to the Judge. His sloppy work in either not reading, or not adequately comprehending, the plea documents does not reflect well on his professional integrity. He may be OK with that. The legal community at large would likely not be so accepting.
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Old 16th March 2019, 06:05 PM   #1230
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Lots of legal things are kept secret, for a variety of reasons. Are you actually confused about that?
Is it acceptable to lie about them as well?
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Old 16th March 2019, 06:36 PM   #1231
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Trump Tweeted

Spreading the fake and totally discredited Dossier “is unfortunately a very dark stain against John McCain.” Ken Starr, Former Independent Counsel. He had far worse “stains” than this, including thumbs down on repeal and replace after years of campaigning to repeal and replace!
Meghan McCain’s response, via Twitter:

No one will ever love you the way they loved my father.... I wish I had been given more Saturday’s with him. Maybe spend yours with your family instead of on twitter obsessing over mine?
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“I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that...I will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.” - President Donald J. Trump, January 20, 2017.
"And it's, frankly, disgusting the way the press is able to write whatever they want to write. And people should look into it." - President Donald J. Trump, October 11, 2017.
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Old 16th March 2019, 06:50 PM   #1232
acbytesla
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
Meghan McCain’s response, via Twitter:

No one will ever love you the way they loved my father.... I wish I had been given more Saturday’s with him. Maybe spend yours with your family instead of on twitter obsessing over mine?
Ouch!
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Old 16th March 2019, 06:55 PM   #1233
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Is it acceptable to lie about them as well?
It's legal to under most circumstances. Different people find different things acceptable or unacceptable, sometimes with little connection to what's legal.
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Old 16th March 2019, 07:00 PM   #1234
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Why would we need to suppose that. You have stated in this thread that they were not a crime.
You disagree with me about that. One of the things you've used to argue that is that the judge would face consequences if he approved a plea deal for something that wasn't a crime. It's worth considering whether that makes any sense. And it doesn't.

Quote:
There may not be any tangible negative consequences to the Judge.
May not be? Try there definitely aren't any.

Quote:
His sloppy work in either not reading, or not adequately comprehending, the plea documents does not reflect well on his professional integrity. He may be OK with that. The legal community at large would likely not be so accepting.
That's manifestly not the case. Like I said, judges accept bad plea deals all the time. There's basically never repercussions for it. Even prosecutors who are primarily responsible for them rarely face any negative consequences.

And again, in this particular case it's not like Cohen is being done some great injustice here. He's definitely guilty of other stuff, and his sentence is not excessive for the other stuff he's pled to even without the Stormy payments. So what difference does it make to Cohen? None. So why should it matter to the judge?
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Old 16th March 2019, 07:04 PM   #1235
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
It's legal to under most circumstances. Different people find different things acceptable or unacceptable, sometimes with little connection to what's legal.
Well this thread exists because of Trump's very questionable actions. Legality has no relevance to him.
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Old 16th March 2019, 07:11 PM   #1236
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You disagree with me about that. One of the things you've used to argue that is that the judge would face consequences if he approved a plea deal for something that wasn't a crime. It's worth considering whether that makes any sense. And it doesn't.



May not be? Try there definitely aren't any.



That's manifestly not the case. Like I said, judges accept bad plea deals all the time. There's basically never repercussions for it. Even prosecutors who are primarily responsible for them rarely face any negative consequences.

And again, in this particular case it's not like Cohen is being done some great injustice here. He's definitely guilty of other stuff, and his sentence is not excessive for the other stuff he's pled to even without the Stormy payments. So what difference does it make to Cohen? None. So why should it matter to the judge?
OK. I accept your position that ethics and correctness are not important to US judges. They would likely get in the way of future political ambitions anyway. They certainly don't count at the apex of your political pile. And they do not count to the defenders of those at the apex of your political pile.
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Old 16th March 2019, 07:21 PM   #1237
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
It's legal to under most circumstances. Different people find different things acceptable or unacceptable, sometimes with little connection to what's legal.
How about this specific circumstance? And let's not forget all of the other concealments and lies regarding other Russian contacts with Trump as well. Was it legal when Sessions lied about Russian contacts?

You claim it wasn't in Russia's best interest to collude:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Plenty of risk and little upside with that strategy.
Yeah, they would be better off with the strategy of just having a bunch of clandestine meetings with Trump officials, merely giving the *appearance* of collusion, just for the fun of it. LOL!
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Old 16th March 2019, 07:25 PM   #1238
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I mean who doesn't lie to federal agents investigating links into foreign interference in our elections that could shake the foundations of our democracy? Sheesh.
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Old 16th March 2019, 10:25 PM   #1239
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Putin assumed that Trump would de-legitimize the 2016 elections - before, during and after. He would have made sure that the Clinton administration would get constant criticism from the Right, obstructionism beyond the scale of the Obama years, extended to foreign policies. For that to happen, he had to mess with the voters and the elections as much as possible
If Putin had believed that Trump would win, he would have colluded LESS, because the risk of exposure is so much greater in an elected president than in a losing nominee.
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Old 16th March 2019, 10:29 PM   #1240
Ziggurat
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
OK. I accept your position that ethics and correctness are not important to US judges. They would likely get in the way of future political ambitions anyway. They certainly don't count at the apex of your political pile. And they do not count to the defenders of those at the apex of your political pile.
What we're arguing about has nothing to do with what I do or do not value. It is only about how the world actually works. Describing the world in a particular way does not indicate that you want it to be so. This confuses many people, and apparently you're one of them.
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