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Old 29th March 2012, 01:29 PM   #81
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They're not interested in honest debate with you two, only point scoring. There was no hope in dialog with them. Leave them to their own self destruction and failure, at least that'll be fun to watch.
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Old 29th March 2012, 03:36 PM   #82
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A nest of nuts on 911.

http://truthaction.org/forum/viewtop...ghlight=#35090

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Zv7b...layer_embedded#!

"we need a new investigation, because we can't figure out the hundreds of others ones!??"

John should be selling something for money, he sure believes the nonsense he spews. Buildings turned to dust? lol, he has no clue what E=mgh is.
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Old 29th March 2012, 04:04 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
I foresee the only logical evolution for them in the LIHOP direction, should they choose to actually follow rules of evidence and logic, is that their argument will come down to Bush, Cheney and Rice all agreeing in a private conversation to "Let this thing play out and see where it goes", and then they hit a brick wall because they have to prove such a conversation ever took place.
Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Oh, it's easy to prove:

1. It's obvious
2. The evidence is in the zillions of Bytes of information that the Cover Up has made state secrets.

q.e.d.
Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
Yes, 1. is their default fallback. However as far as 2, as far as I know, there are still places in the White House where there can still be a private unrecorded conversation between the three critical decision makers (maybe throw in Rumsfeld, but I am not sure if he was present at or informed of the August 6, 2001 Presidential Daily Brief.
A key factor as I see it is that as they evolve in the LIHOP direction there are also enough people "our side of the polarisation" who will readily accept LIHOOI*. Include me in them - Read my post further up this page to get where I am coming from.

Debate so far has been dominated by the "big three" technical issues which are undeniably false. BUT we have managed ten years total and (say) 7 years intense Internet discussion mainly on technical claims which are easily seen to be false. So if we move to the middle ground between their LIHOP and my (our??) "lots of bits of LIHOOI" the distinction between true and false becomes much foggier. The technical stuff is essentially "black and white" but the socio political area is murky grey. So discussions in that setting will be even more frustrating than they have been so far.

And the discussion will be getting a lot closer to "their" real concerns. That is the reality that a lot of Government and multi agency decision making is not and cannot be pure even if all intentions are positive. The reality is there will be dirty washing. So that is "our" side. "their" side will lay bare their political ideological position that Government is totally corrupt. And moving them of that position will be infinitely harder than getting them to admit "there was no CD, yes it was that plane and no shootdown at Shanksville".

but I still sense the coming tide change. And I have been wrong before.


* LIHOOI = "let it happen out of incompetence" (We don't use that acronym often )

Last edited by ozeco41; 29th March 2012 at 04:07 PM.
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Old 29th March 2012, 04:33 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by ozeco41 View Post
A key factor as I see it is that as they evolve in the LIHOP direction there are also enough people "our side of the polarisation" who will readily accept LIHOOI*. Include me in them - Read my post further up this page to get where I am coming from.

Debate so far has been dominated by the "big three" technical issues which are undeniably false. BUT we have managed ten years total and (say) 7 years intense Internet discussion mainly on technical claims which are easily seen to be false. So if we move to the middle ground between their LIHOP and my (our??) "lots of bits of LIHOOI" the distinction between true and false becomes much foggier. The technical stuff is essentially "black and white" but the socio political area is murky grey. So discussions in that setting will be even more frustrating than they have been so far.

And the discussion will be getting a lot closer to "their" real concerns. That is the reality that a lot of Government and multi agency decision making is not and cannot be pure even if all intentions are positive. The reality is there will be dirty washing. So that is "our" side. "their" side will lay bare their political ideological position that Government is totally corrupt. And moving them of that position will be infinitely harder than getting them to admit "there was no CD, yes it was that plane and no shootdown at Shanksville".

but I still sense the coming tide change. And I have been wrong before.


* LIHOOI = "let it happen out of incompetence" (We don't use that acronym often )
Generally, I trumps P when speaking government, but it's all conjecture on our part. Maybe they go somewhere with the Saudi Arabia angle and get some hearings, but I doubt any Bush White House folks would spill the beans on a purposeful neglect of the AQ intelligence warnings, except as a deathbed confessional.

ETA: Oh wait, we're not supposed to be posting this stuff, because we're all "Government Truthers"
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Old 29th March 2012, 05:16 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by ozeco41 View Post
My gut feeling is similar to yours.

Put it in context:
There have been concerns about 911 events which we can separate into "technical" and "socio-political"

The claims in the technical domain have been the "big three" of "CD at WTC"; "Not that Plane" at Pentagon AND "It was shot down" at Shanksville. Most other technical claims are subsets or subordinate to those three. Despite our willingness for many years to entertain those claims they are all false and most truthers sooner or later will have to deal with the falseness.

Claims in the "socio-political" domain include "MIHOP"; "LIHOP" and "LIHOOI" (Let it happen out of incompetence). Those claims almost always refer to "it" as if "it" was a single homogeneous entity. There is a structural error there - more of that a bit later.

BUT the self evident truths are probably:
- It is (almost??) certain there was no MIHOP in the sense of a deliberate overall plan under Government control;
- Ditto no overall LIHOP plan;
- There was probably a lot of LIHOOI among all the agencies involved;
- There was probably a lot of bits of LIHOP including arse covering among the agencies.

And what I just wrote has pointed to the structural issue. "It", whether made to happen, let happen or just happened by itself through incompetence, "it" was never and never could be one single homogeneous entity. There was not and could not have been one "master plan". It was lots of little bits which added up to the overall setting.

And each of those bits could independent of all the others be made to happen, let happen or happened all by its little self because of incompetence.

So I suggest we are seeing a groundswell or a tide change -- pick your own metaphor.

There is in my opinion little doubt that quite a lot of bits did in fact happen which were not in the overall best community interest. AND again IMNSHO those bits may be worth further investigation and some of them undoubtedly would be worth further investigation.

So the tide change we may be correct in sensing will probably:
A)Abandon loser technical claims like the "big three" (as a side benefit that should see the death of the current trolling interests in thermXte, iron microspheres etc - but don't underestimate the survival instinct of trolls )
B) Abandon non-specific claims as to either MIHOP or LIHOP at the overall level of one "it" which is a single presumed homogeneous entity including a "master plan".

AND

C) A probable shift of interest to legitimate concerns about lesser elements of LIHOP and LIHOOI

Let's see as the trend continues. I've been wrong before.....

PS: We would need new acronyms to change the "it" to "them" LTHOP or similar? http://conleys.com.au/smilies/scratch.gif
Originally Posted by ozeco41 View Post
A key factor as I see it is that as they evolve in the LIHOP direction there are also enough people "our side of the polarisation" who will readily accept LIHOOI*. Include me in them - Read my post further up this page to get where I am coming from.

Debate so far has been dominated by the "big three" technical issues which are undeniably false. BUT we have managed ten years total and (say) 7 years intense Internet discussion mainly on technical claims which are easily seen to be false. So if we move to the middle ground between their LIHOP and my (our??) "lots of bits of LIHOOI" the distinction between true and false becomes much foggier. The technical stuff is essentially "black and white" but the socio political area is murky grey. So discussions in that setting will be even more frustrating than they have been so far.

And the discussion will be getting a lot closer to "their" real concerns. That is the reality that a lot of Government and multi agency decision making is not and cannot be pure even if all intentions are positive. The reality is there will be dirty washing. So that is "our" side. "their" side will lay bare their political ideological position that Government is totally corrupt. And moving them of that position will be infinitely harder than getting them to admit "there was no CD, yes it was that plane and no shootdown at Shanksville".

but I still sense the coming tide change. And I have been wrong before.


* LIHOOI = "let it happen out of incompetence" (We don't use that acronym often )
Great posts. Puts eloquently into words what I was muddling my way through.

In one sense, I'm fascinated by a shift in topic from MIHOP to "let it happen" theories, because it means concentrating on historical facts, rather than imagined or confused physical facts. But at the same time, the coverup advocates assume a totally corrupt government and media; a political conspiracy theory. I'm not a big fan of politics. I mostly try to avoid it, because it's so subjective.

I'm interested in reading The Eleventh Day, though, and will see how it goes from there.

Sigh, now I'll go and check out truthaction.org and see whether they've given me any reason to take them seriously. I may not post there again. It seems they don't want to discuss their evidence. They'd rather take potshots at debunkers.
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Old 29th March 2012, 05:51 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
I foresee the only logical evolution for them in the LIHOP direction, should they choose to actually follow rules of evidence and logic, is that their argument will come down to Bush, Cheney and Rice all agreeing in a private conversation to "Let this thing play out and see where it goes", and then they hit a brick wall because they have to prove such a conversation ever took place.
Realistically, the Truth Action folks are already there, although they reject the LIHOP acronym because it pins them down. If you're talking about warnings and such, you're not proposing MIHOP.

But that is the frustrating part with TA; it's almost like listening to the old broadcasts of the Soviet Union and trying to figure out what was really happening. There's a lot of interpretation and logical gap-filling required because their opinions are not stated forthrightly; you almost have deduce their feelings recursively--by background and not by figure.
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Old 29th March 2012, 06:00 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
Sigh, now I'll go and check out truthaction.org and see whether they've given me any reason to take them seriously. I may not post there again. It seems they don't want to discuss their evidence. They'd rather take potshots at debunkers.
I made this comparison a few years back, but it still applies. Remember those "Where's Waldo?" books that were very popular in the 1990s? Imagine a kid who has had the books for years and knows them by heart. He invites a friend to search one of his favorite pages for Waldo. And sits there fussing because he cannot believe that his buddy can't see what is so obvious to him.
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Old 29th March 2012, 06:27 PM   #88
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Cheers, Brainster.
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Old 30th March 2012, 12:41 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
Great posts. Puts eloquently into words what I was muddling my way through....
Thank you Orphia
Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
...I'm interested in reading The Eleventh Day, though, and will see how it goes from there...
I've started but "piked out"* at the heart throb/tear jerker chapter -- till I gather courage. (Despite my philistine engineer stance my kids reckon I'm an old softie) It should be a good read. Meanwhile I'm reading old favourites Miss Marple et al...




* For non Aussies it's roughly equivalent to "chickened out" provided my understanding of foreign vernacular is correct.
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Old 30th March 2012, 01:46 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by Ivan Kminek View Post
Originally Posted by cjnewson88 View Post
You guys need to make a new topic over there and start talking about the Millette findings/red gray chips. It seems they're doing their best to avoid that topic..
Yes. It's very, very apparent that they're doing their "best" in this way. But I think that it doesn't make sense to open a new thread on Millette's study. It will be very soon transformed again into the chattering about the Life, Universe and Everything.
...
I did open a thread, and it has not degenerated into another abuse-fest. Only 3 replies from them, but a slowly increasing number of thread views - 110 at the moment, of which less than 10 are mine. Quite a surpising number for such a tiny forunm with so few active member. There are either the proverbial lurkers, or the regulars secretly have second and third looks. Either way, that's as much as we can hope for, given the stubbornness and prejudice I encountered there.

Some little-known facts about red-gray chips
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Old 31st March 2012, 09:10 AM   #91
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Wow; I´ve seen some bickering on this forum, but its not even close to the name calling, the bashing and the outright **** slinging thats taking place on that forum! Reading the thread where Oystein and Orphia Nay participated in kinda kills off spring hall convert´s thread about JREFers being angry and agressive!

The sad part is that even though a few of the less agressive ones over there has some good points, the rest of the rabid members there scare anyone that is willing to listen to their arguements, away. I think there is a very valid reason they "truth movement" never will grow much bigger.
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Old 31st March 2012, 09:26 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by ozeco41 View Post
PS: We would need new acronyms to change the "it" to "them" LTHOP or similar? http://conleys.com.au/smilies/scratch.gif
I agree with your posts here, but you are reminding me of a long-ago surreal discussion (perhaps with the now-absent femr2?) about the meaning of "it" in LIHOP. Actually some had issue with each of the letters in the acronym at one point or another. The political discussion is, in any case, an improvement over pedantry and sophistry.
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Old 31st March 2012, 11:10 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
I agree with your posts here, but you are reminding me of a long-ago surreal discussion (perhaps with the now-absent femr2?) about the meaning of "it" in LIHOP. Actually some had issue with each of the letters in the acronym at one point or another. The political discussion is, in any case, an improvement over pedantry and sophistry.
Yes you remind me of that shameful and best not repeated low point in the history of this sub-forum.

I did not remember it err.... "that period"... whilst I was writing the posts. Even if I had remembered I doubt that I could have written those posts without referring to it err.... "that word"....


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Old 25th April 2012, 12:15 AM   #94
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So as not to derail the Millette responses thread further, Oystein, is it true they banned you at truthaction?

I've just had a look to see what I'd missed in the couple of weeks I haven't been there, but can't see any mention of your banning.
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Old 25th April 2012, 03:55 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
So as not to derail the Millette responses thread further, Oystein, is it true they banned you at truthaction?

I've just had a look to see what I'd missed in the couple of weeks I haven't been there, but can't see any mention of your banning.
Hey Orphia,

yes, true, I was banned a good fortnight ago. Currently searching for the boot that came down upon me...
The build-up was on pages 3 and 4 of this thread (which then continued with truly excellent explanations by Kat Dorman on why the commonest CD-arguments are false and why Bazant is largely spot-on within the confines of his model assumptions - makes sure you read it, if structural response to collapse interests you):
http://truthaction.org/forum/viewtop...r=asc&start=45
I don't quite get what problem he had with me. Some splitting of hairs over what value DSC testing has towards the objectives of Harrit on one and Millette on the other hand, or perhaps out different evaluation on wherein Jones's and Harrit's fraud lies.

Other abuses headed my way shortly before my execution are found here


SnowCrash STILL hasn't understood that the problem with Harrit/Jones is not their data but their false interpretation of it - he thinks the data is solid proof of a thermite reaction when in reality it isn't at all:
http://truthaction.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7551
Originally Posted by SnowCrash
They committed fraud. The paper did, in fact, prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that a thermitic reaction had taken place, except... if there was fraud. They explicitly stated elemental iron present after ignition wasn't present before ignition. They lied about the key finding
...
Oystein was wrong. There was no ambiguity about the paper's key finding. It wasn't error. It wasn't unclear. The paper, had it not been for its lying main architect (Jones), was unequivocal. All the debunkers' criticisms over the years were full of ****, until they contracted Millette.
It was unequivocal only in its false conclusions which don't follow from the data.

He is a very disturbed individual, and YT is a fool that he lets such a loose cannon "moderate" his forum.
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Old 25th April 2012, 04:42 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by ozeco41 View Post
The technical stuff is essentially "black and white" but the socio political area is murky grey. So discussions in that setting will be even more frustrating than they have been so far....

..."their" side will lay bare their political ideological position that Government is totally corrupt. And moving them of that position will be infinitely harder than getting them to admit "there was no CD, yes it was that plane and no shootdown at Shanksville".
I basically agree with everything you say in this post. (Not everyone who is caught up in the bogus technical arguments is totally on board with that ideological position -- but, in 2012, I would guess that the proportion is much higher than it was in the past, especially for people who invest serious time in trutherness.)

To the extent that ideological positions are value orientations, no movement is likely. Debating whether "government is totally corrupt" is sort of like debating whether "life is meaningless."

I possibly disagree with one word in what I've quoted: I would change "frustrating" to something like "unproductive," in the sense that these arguments offer little chance of persuasion. This is a matter of my own values: I find a frank (and futile) debate over value orientations less frustrating than a value debate masquerading as a technical debate, in which evidence and reasoned inference actually should matter.
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Old 25th April 2012, 03:11 PM   #97
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Thanks, Oystein.

Snowcrash imagines he sees wilful deception and fraud where there is just incompetence, just like he does with 9/11 in general.
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Old 28th April 2012, 12:37 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
...He is a very disturbed individual, and YT is a fool that he lets such a loose cannon "moderate" his forum.
Yes. He is capable of very clear thinking BUT his "disturbed" characteristic overrules too often.
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Old 28th April 2012, 12:40 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by MarkLindeman View Post
I basically agree with everything you say in this post.
Thanks.
Originally Posted by MarkLindeman View Post
...To the extent that ideological positions are value orientations, no movement is likely. Debating whether "government is totally corrupt" is sort of like debating whether "life is meaningless."...
Agreed.
Originally Posted by MarkLindeman View Post
...I possibly disagree with one word in what I've quoted: I would change "frustrating" to something like "unproductive," in the sense that these arguments offer little chance of persuasion. This is a matter of my own values: I find a frank (and futile) debate over value orientations less frustrating than a value debate masquerading as a technical debate, in which evidence and reasoned inference actually should matter.
Understood. My own focus tends to be on the technical engineering issues rather than the socio-political. Hence I would not notice the nuance "frustrating" versus "unproductive," - in hindsight I agree with you.

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Old 4th May 2012, 05:00 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
...continued with truly excellent explanations by Kat Dorman on why the commonest CD-arguments are false and why Bazant is largely spot-on within the confines of his model assumptions - makes sure you read it, if structural response to collapse interests you):
http://truthaction.org/forum/viewtop...r=asc&start=45
...
It took me several days of on-and-off reading to get through this thread at truthaction, but it was worth it: a) for the lulz b) for the excellent way Kat Dorman explains a lot of collapse-related building mechanics - what's right and wrong about Bazant, wrong with Chandler and pretty much all the other ae911t morons. Also, nice insight into the history of one smart truther.

Recommended!
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Old 4th May 2012, 07:46 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
It took me several days of on-and-off reading to get through this thread at truthaction, but it was worth it: a) for the lulz b) for the excellent way Kat Dorman explains a lot of collapse-related building mechanics - what's right and wrong about Bazant, wrong with Chandler and pretty much all the other ae911t morons. Also, nice insight into the history of one smart truther.

Recommended!

From Kat Dorman:

Inevitably, those most certain about alleged violations of physics have the least education and experience in the relevant fields, preferring to believe they were born with the acumen "most of us" had to study hard to achieve.


Sums up woo of all sorts.
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Old 28th December 2014, 10:12 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
"Yeah, perhaps it's time to stop pretending there is a movement, which implies unity of some kind, while all we have is a scattered, tattered, splattered and battered gaggle of idle chatter which no longer matters."

From snowcrash at Truth Action:

http://truthaction.org/forum/viewtop...?p=48878#48878
It matters, but just because it matters does not = that it is on enough American adult's radars sufficient enough to have any sort of response from the government. What further complicates the issue is the poisoning of the well about 9/11 with theories like no planes, neutron bombs and space-based energy weapons.
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Old 28th December 2014, 11:06 PM   #103
beachnut
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Originally Posted by Jango View Post
It matters, but just because it matters does not = that it is on enough American adult's radars sufficient enough to have any sort of response from the government. What further complicates the issue is the poisoning of the well about 9/11 with theories like no planes, neutron bombs and space-based energy weapons.
Is that the best 911 truther quote you have?

911 truth is poisoning their own well? All of 911 truth is BS, and fantasy.
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Old 29th December 2014, 02:06 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by Jango View Post
... What further complicates the issue is the poisoning of the well about 9/11 with theories like no planes, neutron bombs and space-based energy weapons.
Add nanothermite to the list.
The items you listed are more the obscure minority claims.
Nanothermite is mainstream among truthers. But every bit as crazy.
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Old 29th December 2014, 02:24 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Add nanothermite to the list.
The items you listed are more the obscure minority claims.
Nanothermite is mainstream among truthers. But every bit as crazy.
I suspect that they are more wide-spread than expected as 9/11 Conspiracies were a popular item whenever rather large and controversial news broke, such as when the August 6th PDB became public knowledge.
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Old 29th December 2014, 06:40 PM   #106
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Holy mother of old threads....
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Common sense has clearly been snuck up on from behind beaten several times on the head and left to bleed.
Over 140 pieces of evidence showing American 77 hit the Pentagon http://therightbloggerbastard.blogspot.co.nz/
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Old 29th December 2014, 11:28 PM   #107
Jango
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Originally Posted by cjnewson88 View Post
Holy mother of old threads....
Such exaggeration, man, it's not that old.
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Old 30th December 2014, 05:19 AM   #108
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If you gather together enough old threads you can make a nice set of Emperor's New Clothes.
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Old 30th December 2014, 05:51 PM   #109
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Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orphia Nay
"Yeah, perhaps it's time to stop pretending there is a movement, which implies unity of some kind, while all we have is a scattered, tattered, splattered and battered gaggle of idle chatter which no longer matters."

From snowcrash at Truth Action:

http://truthaction.org/forum/viewtop...?p=48878#48878

Originally Posted by Jango View Post
It matters, but just because it matters does not = that it is on enough American adult's radars sufficient enough to have any sort of response from the government. What further complicates the issue is the poisoning of the well about 9/11 with theories like no planes, neutron bombs and space-based energy weapons.
You inadvertently showed it doesn't matter: Truth Action is kaput. It's time for the last remaining Truthers to pack it in and get on with their lives and perhaps even do some self-reflection on how they could have wasted so much time on such an obviously bogus issue.
Attached Images
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Old 31st December 2014, 04:07 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by cjnewson88 View Post
Holy mother of old threads....
Oystein did invite Jango to search for old threads if he wanted to discuss other issues than the LC forum deroute
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Old 31st December 2014, 04:33 AM   #111
Ape of Good Hope
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Originally Posted by KDLarsen View Post
Oystein did invite Jango to search for old threads if he wanted to discuss other issues than the LC forum deroute

I have a feeling (and it's only a feeling, mind) that Jango has chosen to interpret this as an invitation to 'overbomb', resurrecting multiple dead threads in a manner that could conceivably be described as 'scattershot'.

Jango also said he was going to start a new thread in which to discuss his concerns, but hasn't yet done so. I suggested he read through paloalto's thread as it seemed to be the closest to what he was interested in talking about.

He's not yet added anything to that thread though. Perhaps he's still working his way through it, as it's quite lengthy.
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Old 31st December 2014, 05:53 AM   #112
Oystein
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Originally Posted by KDLarsen View Post
Oystein did invite Jango to search for old threads if he wanted to discuss other issues than the LC forum deroute
Yes, but didn't mean to have several resurrected.
I think the general topic of "what did the servcices know and do pre-9/11 / who are they covering post-9/11" has been started several times, but never reached a state of maturity like some of the old more technical topics did. Hence good posts are scattered throughout several old thread.

The way that I would do this (being an experienced member here), it this:
1. Either find the best or most recent appropriate thread, or start over in a new thread
2. Link to and/or quote good posts from other threads in that one thread


I think Jango is putting in some serious effort, he is listening to advice, and he is not promoting any claims that are obviously junk. I for one am quite willing learn the arguments and counter-arguments on a field of 9/11-related politics that, in my view, have so far received somewhat less attention here.
A while ago we (the JREF regulars) pretty drove away shure and jimd3100 with a barrage of bordeline-abusive attacks that often lacked substance. I pray that we wise up and meet Jango with respect.

If he makes claims of fact that you think are false, point out what is false and refute it with evidence.
If you think he is missing vital information, provide it.
If you think that he draws conclusions that do not follow from the facts, explain it.
If your opinions on the political implications differ from his, feel free to voice yours, but be sure to differentiate between opinions and claims of fact.
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Old 3rd January 2015, 11:11 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by Redwood View Post
You inadvertently showed it doesn't matter: Truth Action is kaput. It's time for the last remaining Truthers to pack it in and get on with their lives and perhaps even do some self-reflection on how they could have wasted so much time on such an obviously bogus issue.
Debunked and defunct...
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