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Old 14th May 2020, 12:54 PM   #841
alfaniner
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down state's stay-at-home order.

Republicans have been telling us that people can take personal responsibly for their own safety and do the right thing without it having to be mandated.

Well... here was the immediate response to the stay-at-home order being rescinded.

Crowded bars. No masks. No social distancing.

To the sane and responsible people on this forum who live in Wisconsin, please be safe and take care of yourselves and your loved ones.

Our only hope at this point is that the virus hits these idiots harder than the rest of us and hopefully thins their ranks.
I noticed that a great number of that crowd appears to be in the "obese" category. Which has no relation to being a Trump supporter, of course.
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Old 14th May 2020, 12:55 PM   #842
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Wisconsin is #1 or #2 every time those surveys come out about which state is the most obese, so really it's just local people being out.
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Old 14th May 2020, 09:53 PM   #843
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Apparently the COVID infections are now rising steeply in those states that did not close and/or had those "Freedumb" protests.
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Old 14th May 2020, 10:03 PM   #844
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
I scrolled comments on the ABC News Twitter post linking to their coverage of Fauci's testimony.

I stopped about 5 minutes later and had to go outside and breathe, literally shaking with anxiety.

I think I saw a handful of supportive comments, maybe about 20% of the negative posts would have a rebuttal (and maybe a quarter of them were substantive rather than just equally reactionary raging the other direction).

Carlin said it best, we are "**** outta luck and jolly well ******."
Trump is stirring up a storm and his minions want blood.
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Old 14th May 2020, 11:27 PM   #845
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
Trump is stirring up a storm and his minions want blood.

His minions have been itching for blood since they lost the Civil War. Trump is gifting them the perfect stage to set upon their fantasy comeback tour.
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Old 15th May 2020, 06:51 AM   #846
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Apparently the COVID infections are now rising steeply in those states that did not close and/or had those "Freedumb" protests.
Whodathunkit.
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Old 15th May 2020, 07:37 PM   #847
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Apparently the COVID infections are now rising steeply in those states that did not close and/or had those "Freedumb" protests.
Evidences?
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Old 15th May 2020, 07:51 PM   #848
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down state's stay-at-home order.

Republicans have been telling us that people can take personal responsibly for their own safety and do the right thing without it having to be mandated.

Well... here was the immediate response to the stay-at-home order being rescinded.

Crowded bars. No masks. No social distancing.

To the sane and responsible people on this forum who live in Wisconsin, please be safe and take care of yourselves and your loved ones.

Our only hope at this point is that the virus hits these idiots harder than the rest of us and hopefully thins their ranks.
The problem is that wearing a mask doesn't protect the wearer, but helps prevent others from getting it by reducing the distance the virus can be projected into the area around them. That protects the idiots not wearing masks. The idiots not wearing masks spread it farther and wider infecting even those who do wear masks. That means it's the idiots being protected and the non-idiots are not being protected. Sort of a reverse Darwin survival of the fittest: survival of the idiots.
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Old 15th May 2020, 07:57 PM   #849
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Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin View Post
Evidences?
It's difficult to know if the rise in reported cases is due to opening or because testing is increasing.
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Old 16th May 2020, 09:52 AM   #850
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Originally Posted by AnonyMoose View Post
His minions have been itching for blood since they lost the Civil War. Trump is gifting them the perfect stage to set upon their fantasy comeback tour.
Hey, do you guys remember when Antifa was this big threat and proof that the Left is so much more violent?

Haha... I know, right?
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Old 16th May 2020, 09:54 AM   #851
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
The problem is that wearing a mask doesn't protect the wearer, but helps prevent others from getting it by reducing the distance the virus can be projected into the area around them. That protects the idiots not wearing masks. The idiots not wearing masks spread it farther and wider infecting even those who do wear masks. That means it's the idiots being protected and the non-idiots are not being protected. Sort of a reverse Darwin survival of the fittest: survival of the idiots.
I’m just hoping that the idiots will congregate together and the non-idiots will avoid them. It’s a pipe dream, I know. But when you see crap like this, hope is a scarce commodity. You take it where you can find it.
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Old 18th May 2020, 02:46 PM   #852
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Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin View Post
Evidences?
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
It's difficult to know if the rise in reported cases is due to opening or because testing is increasing.
Quote:
US lockdown protests may have spread virus widely, cellphone data suggests

Devices associated with protesters travelled up to hundreds of miles after rallies where few precautions were taken
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...cellphone-data
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Old 18th May 2020, 03:24 PM   #853
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Originally Posted by Doghouse Reilly View Post
Okay, I lost the bet. I still don't believe that this is what it was made out to be and I believe the evidence is overwhelming that the models used were extremely flawed, and that the lockdowns are unnecessary and of minimal effectiveness and will harm more than they help. I also believe thousands of deaths are being attributed to Covid-19 that are due to other causes, and that the Covid-19 death rates are actually not much worse than a bad flu.

All of that being said, I lost and Roborama won, fair and square. I agreed to the terms of the bet and I lost.

I will accept my penalty in the form of whatever avatar is chosen for me for one year.
I thank whichever mod split that out of the thread it didn't belong in.
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Old 26th May 2020, 10:34 AM   #854
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Its counter-attack time for the Trumpkins since Trump is patting himself on the back for beating COVID-19. Lots of posts about how the deaths were no big deal. Lots of posts about how most of the deaths were in populous regions of the East Coast and so no big deal. "It's all scare tactics!!!!", etc.
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Old 14th June 2020, 06:11 AM   #855
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I know plenty of Democrats and Independents who agree that we have severely overreacted to COVID-19, that COVID-19 is not nearly as deadly as we were originally told, and that these destructive lockdowns around the country were unnecessary and baseless.

The 1957-1958 Asian Flu pandemic killed 116,000 Americans. That was 0.066% of the U.S. population. Our population was 175 million at the time. Our current population is 328.2 million. 0.066% of 328.2 million would be 216,000 deaths. However, in response to the Asian Flu pandemic, we did not panic and did not impose extreme lockdown measures; as a result, we did not put tens of millions of people out of work, did not force thousands of businesses to close, did not close schools all over the country, and did not require people to wear masks. Why did we not panic back then? Why are we panicking now?

The 1968 Hong Kong Flu pandemic killed 100,000 Americans. That was 0.05% of the U.S. population. Our population was 200.7 million at the time. 0.05% of our current population would be 164,000 deaths. As we had done with the Asian Flu, we did not panic and did not impose drastic lockdown measures. Why not?

There were two big differences between our reaction to the Asian Flu and the Hong Kong Flu and our reaction to COVID-19: One, our news media did not cover those pandemics in a way that created panic, whereas the majority of our current news media have covered COVID-19 in a way that has caused panic and fear far beyond what the facts justify. Two, very few elected officials or public health officials called for drastic lockdown measures to combat those pandemics, whereas our current elected officials and public health officials in most states insisted on drastic lockdown measures to combat COVID-19.

Our leaders in the 1950s and 1960s were wise enough to understand that, all things considered, drastic lockdown measures would cause more damage and human suffering than the pandemics would cause. They understood that such a “cure” would be worse than the disease.
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Old 14th June 2020, 06:41 AM   #856
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Originally Posted by bobtaftfan View Post
I know plenty of Democrats and Independents who agree that we have severely overreacted to COVID-19, that COVID-19 is not nearly as deadly as we were originally told, and that these destructive lockdowns around the country were unnecessary and baseless.

The 1957-1958 Asian Flu pandemic killed 116,000 Americans. That was 0.066% of the U.S. population. Our population was 175 million at the time. Our current population is 328.2 million. 0.066% of 328.2 million would be 216,000 deaths.
In other words, we will get to that level. The dying hasn't stopped and won't stop. As many people who died of Asian flu, per capita, will die of COVID-19, and that's with the lockdowns.

In the spirit of this thread, I won't go into too much argument about whether the lockdowns were a good idea or a bad idea. In part, that's because I think it's still too early to say. For this thread, I'll just note that I think your comments will be the Republican spin going into November.

I don't think it's a winning issue for Trump, though. Whether you think the lockdowns were too much, or whether you think they ended too soon, there wasn't a clear message coming from the White House either way. We know that he always wanted to open up early, and yet his official statements didn't always support that. He seemed to change direction a lot. He seemed more interested in his ratings than in providing a clear message. He was giving daily briefings, which I think were appropriate, but they abruptly stopped when he got lambasted for misspeaking about the "disinfectant". It made him look pouty. He couldn't take the heat, so he just retreated.

It seems to me that if the disease does not come roaring back, his supporters will say, "See I told you so." His foes will say, "The lockdown prevented a catastrophe." What will those few people in the middle, who will decide the election, say? It's hard to tell, because there is still plenty of time between now and November, but I think they will feel that Trump's leadership was pretty ineffective.

On the other hand, Trump is a good marketer. Maybe there's time to spin it and tell convincing yarn.
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Old 14th June 2020, 06:53 AM   #857
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So far I don't think I've seen a single person wearing a mask that had a Trump logo on it. I imagine the rally next weekend will be a prime opportunity for sales of them. If any of the attendees wear masks at all.
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Old 14th June 2020, 06:55 AM   #858
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In the spirit of this thread, I headed over to townhall.com after writing my last reply. I hadn't done that in a while.

Covid was almost completely gone from the column titles. The police related protests had captured all of the attention, but there was one column whose title spoke of Covid-19 experts not having any credibility.

https://townhall.com/tipsheet/mattve...ruins-n2570597

I opened it up, and it was mostly a George Floyd piece. The main topic was where were all the people complaining about social distancing during the riots and demonstrations?

They've got a point to be honest. A week before there was a viral video of a party in the Missouri Ozarks, complete with lots of shaming of party goers in these pages and elsewhere. There wasn't nearly as much shaming of the demonstrators. However, when Trump scheduled a campaign rally, the shamers were back.

I think the column was exaggerating. Despite what the column said, there was a lot of concern expressed about virus spreading during the demonstrations. On the other hand, it wasn't nearly as fierce, and there wasn't the "shaming" element that there had been criticizing anti-lockdown protests or even just the Ozark parties and similar incidents. However, while I think the columnist exaggerated, as columnists frequently do, he had a point.
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Old 14th June 2020, 07:01 AM   #859
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This is slightly a diversion in this thread, but I read a really good piece at "The Motley Fool", of all places, about lockdowns. Specifically, it was about why the lockdowns will not return. It was free from political vitriol. They try to avoid that sort of thing. Basically, there were three points.

1. We now have testing that will help mitigate the spread of the virus, which we did not have as the virus spread through the population.
2. We are now wearing masks and practicing some social distancing, which mitigates the spread of the virus.
3. They're too expensive.

I agree with the piece, but in my opinion, point number 1, while true, isn't "true enough". Yes, we've made progress, but we should have made more, and, once more, in my opinion, the reason we didn't is that there was always this right wing narrative that concerns about the virus were overblown. (My boss actually called it a hoax this week.)
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Old 14th June 2020, 08:13 AM   #860
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Originally Posted by bobtaftfan View Post
...snip

There were two big differences between our reaction to the Asian Flu and the Hong Kong Flu and our reaction to COVID-19: One, our news media did not cover those pandemics in a way that created panic, whereas the majority of our current news media have covered COVID-19 in a way that has caused panic and fear far beyond what the facts justify. Two, very few elected officials or public health officials called for drastic lockdown measures to combat those pandemics, whereas our current elected officials and public health officials in most states insisted on drastic lockdown measures to combat COVID-19.

Our leaders in the 1950s and 1960s were wise enough to understand that, all things considered, drastic lockdown measures would cause more damage and human suffering than the pandemics would cause. They understood that such a “cure” would be worse than the disease.
The differences between COVID-19 and these other flu pandemics you cited are a) bad news media and b) better elected officials?

There are a few other differences you conveniently left out.

We had much more natural resistance to influenza, with the population having been exposed over the last several thousand years.

In addition, flu vaccines were invented in the 1930s; 1942 saw the inactivated influenza B vaccine.

The ease of transmission is higher for COVID-19 than previous flu strains..

The number of serious cases is higher for COVID-19 than previous flu strains.

Why would you think the reaction to COVID-19 should be the same as for the cited flu pandemics?
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Old 18th June 2020, 11:36 AM   #861
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Over at townhall.com today, it seems like the pro-Trump media is going with the "testing causes coronavirus" theory.

https://townhall.com/tipsheet/guyben...antis-n2570814


To be fair, the article makes a point that is worth making. If you see a rapid jump in the number of cases, but no corresponding jump in the number of hospitalizations or deaths, then it seems reasonable that the jump in reported cases may be because more cases are being confirmed by testing. The previous undercounts are being corrected.

Curiously, the article emphasizes hospitalizations rather than deaths. If what is happening in Florida is really that more asymptomatic or low-symptom cases are being detected, we won't see a gigantic jump.

Stay tuned.
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Old 18th June 2020, 11:58 AM   #862
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Did they mention the Excess Mortality?
There are strong indications that Red States have started to count deaths from Covid as something else, such as pneumonia.
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Old 18th June 2020, 12:21 PM   #863
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Did they mention the Excess Mortality?
There are strong indications that Red States have started to count deaths from Covid as something else, such as pneumonia.

But there was one database in California that temporarily classified people who died and were positive for COVID-19 as dying of COVID-19, no matter how they actually died, so it all balances out.
(sarcasm)
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Old 18th June 2020, 05:22 PM   #864
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And, as if on cue,

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/ic...?ocid=msedgdhp

It seems that in Florida, the number of available beds in ICU units is dropping, because those beds are being taken up by Covid patients. It's almost as if the townhall.com guy was wrong. How could that be?
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Old 20th June 2020, 06:59 AM   #865
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What Are Trump Supporters Saying about Covid-19?

In Oklahoma in about a week or so many of them will be saying, "cough...cough, cough, cough...cough".
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Old 20th June 2020, 07:39 AM   #866
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
And, as if on cue,

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/ic...?ocid=msedgdhp

It seems that in Florida, the number of available beds in ICU units is dropping, because those beds are being taken up by Covid patients. It's almost as if the townhall.com guy was wrong. How could that be?
Something like 12,000 new cases in that state in four days. Wow. But of course it's only caused by testing, we should just stop doing that.
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Old 20th June 2020, 08:02 AM   #867
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
And, as if on cue,

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/ic...?ocid=msedgdhp

It seems that in Florida, the number of available beds in ICU units is dropping, because those beds are being taken up by Covid patients. It's almost as if the townhall.com guy was wrong. How could that be?
I mean, who could have predicted that?

oh yeah - everyone.
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Old 20th June 2020, 08:05 AM   #868
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
What Are Trump Supporters Saying about Covid-19?

In Oklahoma in about a week or so many of them will be saying, "cough...cough, cough, cough...cough".
The thing is, with this disease, the effects will be small enough that no one will be able to point and say, "See I told you so."

The day before yesterday (the last day I looked), there were 450 new cases in Oklahoma. That's the most ever, by far. The population of Oklahoma is about 4,000,000. That means that that day, about 1 in 8,000 people showed positive for the first time. That would be 2-3 people in that crowd of 19,000 anticipated.

It isn't very many people, when all is said and done. It's not like the handful of pre-symptomatic people in the crowd are going to infect all 19,000 in attendance.

ETA: What really bugs me about Trump's handling of all this is that he can't come out and say, "It really sucks that some people are going to die from this disease, but that's better than living in isolation and loneliness. We're opening up. Good luck." Instead, there has to be denialism. The people who are afraid of the disease have to exaggerate how bad it is, and the people who want to end restrictions have to deny how bad it is. If there was a guy at the top who could be realistic, instead of taking up the denialism banner, it would be a lot easier to formulate balanced policies that would reduce risk but not keep us isolated.

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Old 20th June 2020, 08:31 AM   #869
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I found something new. I'd give a description, but words escape me at the moment.
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Old 20th June 2020, 08:33 AM   #870
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
I found something new. I'd give a description, but words escape me at the moment.
One marvels at the thought process that went into that particular choice of freedom of expression.
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Old 20th June 2020, 08:41 AM   #871
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You really need to click on that link! I don't want to spoil it, but just in case, I'll put the description in a spoiler.
At the Trump rally, Brian Clothier, 61, is wearing an adult diaper over his pants that reads “Scientists say [farts] spread the virus. I COVID my ass to stop the spread.”

I wonder how many at that rally, some of whom have been in line for a couple of days, are wearing that garment under their clothes.
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Old 20th June 2020, 09:03 AM   #872
slyjoe
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
The thing is, with this disease, the effects will be small enough that no one will be able to point and say, "See I told you so."

The day before yesterday (the last day I looked), there were 450 new cases in Oklahoma. That's the most ever, by far. The population of Oklahoma is about 4,000,000. That means that that day, about 1 in 8,000 people showed positive for the first time. That would be 2-3 people in that crowd of 19,000 anticipated.

It isn't very many people, when all is said and done. It's not like the handful of pre-symptomatic people in the crowd are going to infect all 19,000 in attendance.

ETA: What really bugs me about Trump's handling of all this is that he can't come out and say, "It really sucks that some people are going to die from this disease, but that's better than living in isolation and loneliness. We're opening up. Good luck." Instead, there has to be denialism. The people who are afraid of the disease have to exaggerate how bad it is, and the people who want to end restrictions have to deny how bad it is. If there was a guy at the top who could be realistic, instead of taking up the denialism banner, it would be a lot easier to formulate balanced policies that would reduce risk but not keep us isolated.
Just as it's not like the people who DO get infected aren't going to infect people who weren't at the rally.
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Old 20th June 2020, 11:26 AM   #873
timhau
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
I mean, who could have predicted that?

oh yeah - everyone.
... except the patients running the asylum.
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Old 20th June 2020, 11:41 AM   #874
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
I found something new. I'd give a description, but words escape me at the moment.
I've made no secret of the fact that I think Trump supporters are stupid. This guy just reinforces that. Six Trump staffers in Tulsa have tested positive for the virus. The state has had a record numbers of cases in the last several days. In what intelligent mind does going to see Trump in person outweigh the chances of not only getting Covid 19 yourself, but infecting your family and friends? When you or someone you love becomes seriously ill or even dies, was seeing Dear Leader in person worth it? I just don't get what explanation for this choice can be presented other than they are just plain idiots.
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Old 20th June 2020, 03:08 PM   #875
Hercules Rockefeller
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
The thing is, with this disease, the effects will be small enough that no one will be able to point and say, "See I told you so."

The day before yesterday (the last day I looked), there were 450 new cases in Oklahoma. That's the most ever, by far. The population of Oklahoma is about 4,000,000. That means that that day, about 1 in 8,000 people showed positive for the first time. That would be 2-3 people in that crowd of 19,000 anticipated.

It isn't very many people, when all is said and done. It's not like the handful of pre-symptomatic people in the crowd are going to infect all 19,000 in attendance.

ETA: What really bugs me about Trump's handling of all this is that he can't come out and say, "It really sucks that some people are going to die from this disease, but that's better than living in isolation and loneliness. We're opening up. Good luck." Instead, there has to be denialism. The people who are afraid of the disease have to exaggerate how bad it is, and the people who want to end restrictions have to deny how bad it is. If there was a guy at the top who could be realistic, instead of taking up the denialism banner, it would be a lot easier to formulate balanced policies that would reduce risk but not keep us isolated.
Actually, it kind of is. Check out the 2:38 mark here:


YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
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Old 20th June 2020, 03:58 PM   #876
Meadmaker
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Originally Posted by Hercules Rockefeller View Post
Actually, it kind of is. Check out the 2:38 mark here:


YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

Thanks for posting the time stamp. Much easier to find the important point.

What I meant by not many people is not enough to show up in the statistics as something traceable to the Trump rally.

I looked at the video.


What I noticed, on the card in the background, was that they started with a baseline of 100 infected people attending the rally. That seems high, based on the numbers of recent infections in Oklahoma. Their follow on calculations also seem to exaggerate.

Make no mistake. I think it's bad news to have this rally, but in truth, individual, large public gatherings haven't been followed by spikes in cases. Here in Michigan there were the gun-toting morons protesting the shutdown. It wasn't followed by a huge spike in cases. We had the George Floyd demonstrations. No spike in cases there. (Those demonstrations did have a higher degree of mask use, but they were larger.)

If we have a big cluster of cases coming up in Tulsa, and we see that attendance at the rally was a common factor, you can bet it will make the news.
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Old 20th June 2020, 04:10 PM   #877
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You cannot take the fact that most people took precautions and drove the case rate down to prove reckless behavior didn't cause any spread.

Only a few hundred attended at most (the 3000 person one was about driving around causing traffic delays). A few hundred people in a state with 10 million won't noticably move the data much.

That doesn't mean it didn't contribute in causing new cases.
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Old 20th June 2020, 04:57 PM   #878
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Trump's unpopularity may be saving the lives of his supporters. The 19,000-capacity rally arena is just a little over half full right now and the event has already begun.
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Old 20th June 2020, 04:58 PM   #879
Meadmaker
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
Trump's unpopularity may be saving the lives of his supporters. The 19,000-capacity rally arena is just a little over half full right now and the event has already begun.
Ahhh....it warms my heart to hear it. Let's see some empty seats on the news.
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Old 20th June 2020, 05:04 PM   #880
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We'll still have these people around after the election. They will be even madder, and resist even more any gubmint interruption in their lives. President Biden has his work cut out for him.
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