Ron DeSantis (R) - Country Hungry for New Blood - Page 5

slyjoe · 9th August 2021, 07:16 AM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

Not exactly, at least by my understanding there was no vaccine at the time, they were inoculated with actual smallpox, but in a controlled way that was less deadly on average than catching it wild.

https://www.history.com/news/smallpo...olutionary-war

It was nothing like a proper vaccine.

I think the vaccine had to wait for Jefferson - didn't he encourage it?

Originally Posted by dirtywick

the funny thing about the unapproved vaccine angle is they want to be told it's safe from the people that are already telling them it's safe

Yea I'm sure we will see a sudden rush for vaccines once it is approved. That's an excuse not a reason.

jadebox · 9th August 2021, 07:27 AM

Originally Posted by slyjoe

Yea I'm sure we will see a sudden rush for vaccines once it is approved. That's an excuse not a reason.

According to an article I read earlier today, most people (2/3) think the vaccines have already been approved. So, the number of people waiting for approval before getting vaccinated has to be rather small.

Segnosaur · 9th August 2021, 07:43 AM

Originally Posted by Shadowdweller

Is Trump still residing in Florida? Would be hilarious if he got COVID again.

No, I think he has gone up to spend the summer at some property in New Jersey.

And while the case count in New Jersey is rising, the increase is very small, and it is nothing like the spike in cases you see in Florida. (Hmmmm... New Jersey has a Democrat for a gov., wonder if that might have something to do with it.)

See: The Guardian

ponderingturtle · 9th August 2021, 07:46 AM

Originally Posted by slyjoe

I think the vaccine had to wait for Jefferson - didn't he encourage it?

"One of the first methods for controlling smallpox was variolation, a process named after the virus that causes smallpox (variola virus). During variolation, people who had never had smallpox were exposed to material from smallpox sores (pustules) by scratching the material into their arm or inhaling it through the nose. After variolation, people usually developed the symptoms associated with smallpox, such as fever and a rash. However, fewer people died from variolation than if they had acquired smallpox naturally.

The basis for vaccination began in 1796 when the English doctor Edward Jenner noticed that milkmaids who had gotten cowpox were protected from smallpox. Jenner also knew about variolation and guessed that exposure to cowpox could be used to protect against smallpox. To test his theory, Dr. Jenner took material from a cowpox sore on milkmaid Sarah Nelmes’ hand and inoculated it into the arm of James Phipps, the 9-year-old son of Jenner’s gardener. Months later, Jenner exposed Phipps several times to variola virus, but Phipps never developed smallpox. More experiments followed, and, in 1801, Jenner published his treatise “On the Origin of the Vaccine Inoculation.” In this work, he summarized his discoveries and expressed hope that “the annihilation of the smallpox, the most dreadful scourge of the human species, must be the final result of this practice.”"

https://www.cdc.gov/smallpox/history/history.html

slyjoe · 9th August 2021, 08:04 AM

To poke a little further:

Quote:

Jenner’s work reached the U.S. in part due to the efforts of a Harvard professor, Benjamin Waterhouse, who vaccinated his own family and exposed them to smallpox patients. But Waterhouse wanted to spread the word, so he wrote to an amateur scientist in Virginia, writes Steven Johnson for How We Get to Next. That scientist was Thomas Jefferson.

Interesting aside was Benjamin Franklin's take on the vaccine.

See https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart...als-180954146/

sackett · 9th August 2021, 08:17 AM

Originally Posted by dudalb

Problem is the Covid does not know about state lines......

And that's why the situation in Florida is so pressing. If an entire state becomes a superspreader site, isn't federal action justified? Urgent action, as in a quarantine with closed borders and an air and sea blockade, mandatory masking, school shutdowns, and curfews.

DiSnottis and his pals may be betsy-bug crazy, but nobody's obliged to defer to them.

Segnosaur · 9th August 2021, 08:28 AM

Originally Posted by sackett

And that's why the situation in Florida is so pressing. If an entire state becomes a superspreader site, isn't federal action justified? Urgent action, as in a quarantine with closed borders and an air and sea blockade, mandatory masking, school shutdowns, and curfews.

I think quarantining Florida (heck, most of the deep south states where vaccination rates are low) would be warranted.

But, would it be constitutional? There are probably various sections in the constitution/bill of rights that would limit the ability of the federal government (or various state governments) from closing interstate borders. And given the fact that the supreme court has already ruled in favor of disease on one case involving "Mah Freedum! vs. covid restrictions", I suspect that they would see any sort of "no Floridians allowed north of the Mason Dixon line" as unconstitutional.

ETA:
See: Wikipedia (freedom of movement)

ponderingturtle · 9th August 2021, 08:44 AM

Originally Posted by slyjoe

To poke a little further:

Interesting aside was Benjamin Franklin's take on the vaccine.

See https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart...als-180954146/

Franklin died before the use of Cowpox was discovered. He was talking about inoculation not vaccination.

CORed · 9th August 2021, 09:16 AM

Originally Posted by Craig4

And he's dumb as a ******* post.

Yes, which is apparently now a key qualification to be a Republican politician. Trump, DeSantis, Gaetz, MTG, Lauren Bobert, Mo Brooks. If you have more than half a brain, you have no future as a Republcan.

sackett · 9th August 2021, 09:45 AM

Originally Posted by Segnosaur

I think quarantining Florida (heck, most of the deep south states where vaccination rates are low) would be warranted.

But, would it be constitutional? There are probably various sections in the constitution/bill of rights that would limit the ability of the federal government (or various state governments) from closing interstate borders. And given the fact that the supreme court has already ruled in favor of disease on one case involving "Mah Freedum! vs. covid restrictions", I suspect that they would see any sort of "no Floridians allowed north of the Mason Dixon line" as unconstitutional.

ETA:
See: Wikipedia (freedom of movement)

The Executive has various emergency powers that might cover such drastic action. Ideally, Congress would enact legislation that would authorize temporary measures to meet a crisis of national import -- and Covid certainly qualifies as that.

If you can stop people from entering a forest fire, then surely you can keep them from leaving Florida.

If Biden was 25 years younger and a flintier sort of man, he might try it now. And perhaps succeed.

Segnosaur · 9th August 2021, 12:36 PM

Originally Posted by sackett

Quote:

I think quarantining Florida (heck, most of the deep south states where vaccination rates are low) would be warranted.

But, would it be constitutional?...And given the fact that the supreme court has already ruled in favor of disease on one case involving "Mah Freedum! vs. covid restrictions", I suspect that they would see any sort of "no Floridians allowed north of the Mason Dixon line" as unconstitutional.

The Executive has various emergency powers that might cover such drastic action.

Perhaps, but like I said, any sort of emergency power use that limits inter-state travel would probably be subject to judicial review (and would probably face an unfriendly pro-death supreme court).

Quote:

Ideally, Congress would enact legislation that would authorize temporary measures to meet a crisis of national import -- and Covid certainly qualifies as that.

Of course, they would have to get it by the Senate. While there aren't quite as many lunatics in the senate as the house, I could see some difficulty convincing a significant amount of Republican senators to go along (to avoid the fillibuster).

Quote:

If you can stop people from entering a forest fire, then surely you can keep them from leaving Florida.

I think that a sort of measure of "immediate danger" would probably be applicable... certain death entering a forest fire, while covid kills many but not all victims.

(Again, I want to stress that I would have no moral problem with a "no Florida travel" rule I think it would be a great thing. My concern is just whether it could be legally enforced.)

Trebuchet · 9th August 2021, 12:39 PM

New blood. Blood is what DeSantis has on his hands. He is killing people in his state.

JoeMorgue · 9th August 2021, 12:46 PM

LOL triggered libs. Show me in the Constitution where we're Governors aren't allowed to intentionally kill off their citizens. I demand a civil debate about that.

plague311 · 9th August 2021, 12:48 PM

COVID isn't real, I can't even imagine why we're having this conversation. Just open everything up, get everyone to herd immunity (less than .03% of people die when they get this 'seasonal cold') and lets get back to work!

Florida has a great track record of leading the nation in the right direction. I can't imagine why every state shouldn't follow them now.

JoeMorgue · 9th August 2021, 12:50 PM

In defense waking up everyday and knowing your governor is literally trying to kill you does put the rest of the day in perspective. I'm not longer as angry when I get cut off in traffic.

PhantomWolf · 9th August 2021, 02:41 PM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

LOL triggered libs. Show me in the Constitution where we're Governors aren't allowed to intentionally kill off their citizens. I demand a civil debate about that.

I'm going to suggest the 5th Amendment?

Quote:

Nor shall any person... be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;

and the 14th...

Quote:

No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

ETA:

And Section 9 of Florida's Constitution.

Quote:

SECTION 9. Due process.—No person shall be deprived of life, liberty or property without due process of law

Honestly, I'd love to see someone take De Santis to Court and argue that his banning of mask mandates and other virus-stopping methods are violations of those Constitutional clauses because it is literally a State mandated death sentance for some people.

Belz... · 9th August 2021, 03:14 PM

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf

I'm going to suggest the 5th Amendment?

and the 14th...

There's only one amendment that counts, and that's the Holy Second.

dudalb · 9th August 2021, 03:24 PM

Originally Posted by sackett

And that's why the situation in Florida is so pressing. If an entire state becomes a superspreader site, isn't federal action justified? Urgent action, as in a quarantine with closed borders and an air and sea blockade, mandatory masking, school shutdowns, and curfews.

DiSnottis and his pals may be betsy-bug crazy, but nobody's obliged to defer to them.

It would set a horrid precedent, however. Think of what a Trump could do under the excuse of "urgent action".

dudalb · 9th August 2021, 04:14 PM

He just escalated the war on masks threateing to stop the salaries of public officials who defy his ban on masks.
It is incredible..we have the governor of a major state who thinks defying science and modern medicine is the road to the White House. Scary thing he might be right.
he is also behaving like a petty tyrant, but that is standard for the GOP nowdays.

Stacyhs · 9th August 2021, 04:22 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

He just escalated the war on masks threateing to stop the salaries of public officials who defy his ban on masks.
It is incredible..we have the governor of a major state who thinks defying science and modern medicine is the road to the White House. Scary thing he might be right.
he is also behaving like a petty tyrant, but that is standard for the GOP nowdays.

He's showing what a great authoritarian he will be for his fans!

Lurch · 9th August 2021, 05:16 PM

Originally Posted by plague311

COVID isn't real, I can't even imagine why we're having this conversation. Just open everything up, get everyone to herd immunity (less than .03% of people die when they get this 'seasonal cold') and lets get back to work!

Florida has a great track record of leading the nation in the right direction. I can't imagine why every state shouldn't follow them now.

The only possible chance of getting ahead of mutating variants is to have everyone remaining to be infected to be so at essentially the same time. And even then, surviving virus can still hang about, causing a slow burn of infection if there's not full immunity among a vast majority. And that can eventually lead to a variant that defeats the gains won at already high cost. Putting everyone back at square one.

With killer viruses, the only sure cure is to eradicate them, to at least a sufficient degree, anyway. Who wants Covid to be a perennial bug like the cold and flu, but deadlier?

PhantomWolf · 9th August 2021, 05:28 PM

Originally Posted by Belz...

There's only one amendment that counts, and that's the Holy Second.

In Florida, using the 2nd Amendment solution might actually be considered self-defense.

PhantomWolf · 9th August 2021, 05:31 PM

Originally Posted by Lurch

Who wants Covid to be a perennial bug like the cold and flu, but deadlier?

Apparently, a lot of the "We are just going to have to live with it" idiots.

In worse news, it is being said in news channels that there is evidence that the new Lambda variant might not respond to vaccination at all. Yay!

Roger Ramjets · 9th August 2021, 06:18 PM

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf

In Florida, using the 2nd Amendment solution might actually be considered self-defense.

Just wait until the next mutation, which spreads through bites and makes the infected desperately hungry for human flesh - and the only way to stop them is a head shot.

sackett · 9th August 2021, 07:47 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

It would set a horrid precedent, however. Think of what a Trump could do under the excuse of "urgent action".

The precedent would be federal intervention to halt the acts of an insane prigk infesting a governor's office.

Howsomever, I see your point, and I think it's a good one. Executive action would have to hedged about with laws to establish criteria for intervention, and of course time limits.

I may sound like "Action this day!" but that's not at all what I mean. The Constitution comes before everything.

Because that's all we've ******* got.

TragicMonkey · 9th August 2021, 08:42 PM

Originally Posted by sackett

And that's why the situation in Florida is so pressing. If an entire state becomes a superspreader site, isn't federal action justified? Urgent action, as in a quarantine with closed borders and an air and sea blockade, mandatory masking, school shutdowns, and curfews.

I'm not a big-city fancy geographist, but it seems to me that building a wall against Florida would be a lot easier than one against Mexico.

Or we could actually do the Bugs Bunny sawing-off thing for real.

gabeygoat · 9th August 2021, 09:24 PM

The Bolsinero of Florida

Norman Alexander · 9th August 2021, 09:24 PM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

LOL triggered libs. Show me in the Constitution where we're Governors aren't allowed to intentionally kill off their citizens. I demand a civil debate about that.

Proposed: That this House kill off 300 people per day using a pandemic disease in order to keep businesses open in Florida.

Can I hear voices for the affirmative?

catsmate · 10th August 2021, 02:55 AM

Originally Posted by The Don

When there was a global pandemic involving a highly communicable, deadly, disease whose spread could be greatly reduced by wearing masks in public spaces.

I mean, if we in the West could always wear masks whenever we had a respiratory infection and/or stayed at home while we did then we'd also have much lower death tolls from influenza and vastly fewer people sick with common colds.

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets

Just wait until the next mutation, which spreads through bites and makes the infected desperately hungry for human flesh - and the only way to stop them is a head shot.

[OT-ish] I see Green Monkey Disease is back.

plague311 · 10th August 2021, 09:56 AM

Florida is requesting 300 ventilators from the Federal Government since the cases won't stop rising.

Quote:

As a result of the increase in COVID-19 cases and hospitalizations, the state of Florida requested 300 ventilators from the federal government, according to a Department of Health and Human Services planning document obtained by ABC News.

Something that won't shock a lot of people is that the younger generation seem to be getting hit harder with the Delta variant:

Quote:

Jackson Health System in Miami-Dade is reporting 363 patients across their hospitals. Only 37 of them are vaccinated — of those, 24 are Miami Transplant Institute patients.

Across Jackson hospitals, they have five pediatric patients, with two in ICUs. At Nicklaus Children’s Hospital, there are 24 COVID patients ranging from babies to 18-year-olds. Seven of those patients are in the ICU.

The article also details how burnt out the nurses and doctors are at this point. I can't imagine caring for someone who is so anti-science and medicine until they need you to fix the problem.

Sad thing is, for some of them, there's no coming back.

dudalb · 10th August 2021, 11:59 AM

Someone suggested the name GOvernor Dracula. It fits.

Segnosaur · 10th August 2021, 12:09 PM

From: The Hill
Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis (R) has slipped behind a Democratic gubernatorial rival in a new poll as he faces scrutiny over his handling of the pandemi...45 percent of voters said they would vote for Democratic Rep. Charlie Crist (Fla.)...while 44 percent said they would back DeSantis.

Seems like not even a majority of Floridians are interested in the "blood of DeSantis" . (Granted its still within the margin of error, but given that the Covid situation isn't getting any better, I can't see things turning around for him any time soon.)

Stacyhs · 10th August 2021, 12:19 PM

Originally Posted by Segnosaur

From: The Hill
Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis (R) has slipped behind a Democratic gubernatorial rival in a new poll as he faces scrutiny over his handling of the pandemi...45 percent of voters said they would vote for Democratic Rep. Charlie Crist (Fla.)...while 44 percent said they would back DeSantis.

Seems like not even a majority of Floridians are interested in the "blood of DeSantis" . (Granted its still within the margin of error, but given that the Covid situation isn't getting any better, I can't see things turning around for him any time soon.)

I'd love to see FL go blue in 2022.

sackett · 10th August 2021, 12:42 PM

Gov. DeSanguine says he don't know nuffen bout no venulators, he gone check it out.

But if somebody in Florida really is asking for them, this is no time for Biden to play politics. Nossir.

Of course the federal official who releases them can -- and perhaps should -- stipulate changes in Florida practices to ensure that the equipment is optimally employed: strict quarantines, mandatory masking, curfews, accelerated vaccinations, school/theatre/restaurant/saloon closures, etc. Nothing drastic.

Arrests can come later.

Stacyhs · 10th August 2021, 12:52 PM

Broward County School Board is defying DeSantis' no mask ban. Good for them.

dudalb · 10th August 2021, 12:56 PM

That new poll should be worrying to De Santis..means he is losing the vital swing vote.
yes, he will never fall below 40% support....any GOP OR Dem candidate will get that out of pure party loyalty..but it the 10% who don't feel much loyalty to either party thet decise elections.
( I know the numbers are just symbolic, but I think my basic point stands.

Stacyhs · 10th August 2021, 06:45 PM

Florida had the largest amount of pediatric hospitalizations in the country with 315 last week. These aren't kids who feel like they have a cold or a slight flu; these kids are sick enough to be in the hospital. But schools can't say kids have to wear masks because of "freedoms" according to DeSantis and other idiots.

The Don · 11th August 2021, 12:02 AM

Originally Posted by sackett

Gov. DeSanguine says he don't know nuffen bout no venulators, he gone check it out.

But if somebody in Florida really is asking for them, this is no time for Biden to play politics. Nossir.

[FOXNews]

What is happening in Florida right now is a clear indication that "Sleepy" Joe Biden is snoozing through the Covid pandemic and has squandered the position than President Trump left him with - a Trump vaccine effective at controlling the China Virus and a falling infection rate.

Shame on him for failing to support Ron DeSantis and for turning the suffering of Floridians into a political football.

[/FOXNews]

timhau · 11th August 2021, 01:19 AM

Originally Posted by dudalb

He just escalated the war on masks threateing to stop the salaries of public officials who defy his ban on masks.
It is incredible..we have the governor of a major state who thinks defying science and modern medicine is the road to the White House. Scary thing he might be right.
he is also behaving like a petty tyrant, but that is standard for the GOP nowdays.

Ron DeSantis (R) - Country Hungry for New Phleghm.

Ethan Thane Athen · 11th August 2021, 01:29 AM

Originally Posted by Caroline13

I have 3 friends who did the jabs, ages 94, 90, 89 and they could likely be in a bad way by now, BUT, they all take Grape Seed Extract and have good strong immune systems. And those folks in FL are NOT taking much in the way antioxidants, I'd Bet....so the jab is getting them weaker, not stronger.

So they had the vaccine and are all ok but that's not because of the vaccine but the grape seed extract they take, in fact the vaccine is dangerous but the grape seed extract protected them from it and from Covid? Is that really what you're saying?

Isn't the simplest explanation that the vaccine is not harmful and protects them from Covid? That's what it's designed for...

9th August 2021, 07:16 AM	#161
slyjoe Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Near Harmonica Virgins, AZ Posts: 3,239	Originally Posted by ponderingturtle Not exactly, at least by my understanding there was no vaccine at the time, they were inoculated with actual smallpox, but in a controlled way that was less deadly on average than catching it wild. https://www.history.com/news/smallpo...olutionary-war It was nothing like a proper vaccine. I think the vaccine had to wait for Jefferson - didn't he encourage it? Originally Posted by dirtywick the funny thing about the unapproved vaccine angle is they want to be told it's safe from the people that are already telling them it's safe Yea I'm sure we will see a sudden rush for vaccines once it is approved. That's an excuse not a reason.
	__________________ "You have done nothing to demonstrate an understanding of scientific methodology or modern skepticism, both of which are, by necessity, driven by the facts and evidence, not by preconceptions, and both of which are strengthened by, and rely upon, change." - Arkan Wolfshade

9th August 2021, 07:43 AM	#163
Segnosaur Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Canada, eh? Posts: 18,910	Originally Posted by Shadowdweller Is Trump still residing in Florida? Would be hilarious if he got COVID again. No, I think he has gone up to spend the summer at some property in New Jersey. And while the case count in New Jersey is rising, the increase is very small, and it is nothing like the spike in cases you see in Florida. (Hmmmm... New Jersey has a Democrat for a gov., wonder if that might have something to do with it.) See: The Guardian
	__________________ Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu We are Groot - Groot

9th August 2021, 07:46 AM	#164
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 52,730	Originally Posted by slyjoe I think the vaccine had to wait for Jefferson - didn't he encourage it? "One of the first methods for controlling smallpox was variolation, a process named after the virus that causes smallpox (variola virus). During variolation, people who had never had smallpox were exposed to material from smallpox sores (pustules) by scratching the material into their arm or inhaling it through the nose. After variolation, people usually developed the symptoms associated with smallpox, such as fever and a rash. However, fewer people died from variolation than if they had acquired smallpox naturally. The basis for vaccination began in 1796 when the English doctor Edward Jenner noticed that milkmaids who had gotten cowpox were protected from smallpox. Jenner also knew about variolation and guessed that exposure to cowpox could be used to protect against smallpox. To test his theory, Dr. Jenner took material from a cowpox sore on milkmaid Sarah Nelmes’ hand and inoculated it into the arm of James Phipps, the 9-year-old son of Jenner’s gardener. Months later, Jenner exposed Phipps several times to variola virus, but Phipps never developed smallpox. More experiments followed, and, in 1801, Jenner published his treatise “On the Origin of the Vaccine Inoculation.” In this work, he summarized his discoveries and expressed hope that “the annihilation of the smallpox, the most dreadful scourge of the human species, must be the final result of this practice.”" https://www.cdc.gov/smallpox/history/history.html
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

9th August 2021, 08:04 AM	#165
slyjoe Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Near Harmonica Virgins, AZ Posts: 3,239	To poke a little further: Quote: Jenner’s work reached the U.S. in part due to the efforts of a Harvard professor, Benjamin Waterhouse, who vaccinated his own family and exposed them to smallpox patients. But Waterhouse wanted to spread the word, so he wrote to an amateur scientist in Virginia, writes Steven Johnson for How We Get to Next. That scientist was Thomas Jefferson. Interesting aside was Benjamin Franklin's take on the vaccine. See https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart...als-180954146/
	__________________ "You have done nothing to demonstrate an understanding of scientific methodology or modern skepticism, both of which are, by necessity, driven by the facts and evidence, not by preconceptions, and both of which are strengthened by, and rely upon, change." - Arkan Wolfshade

9th August 2021, 08:17 AM	#166
sackett Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Detroit Posts: 7,610	Originally Posted by dudalb Problem is the Covid does not know about state lines...... And that's why the situation in Florida is so pressing. If an entire state becomes a superspreader site, isn't federal action justified? Urgent action, as in a quarantine with closed borders and an air and sea blockade, mandatory masking, school shutdowns, and curfews. DiSnottis and his pals may be betsy-bug crazy, but nobody's obliged to defer to them.
	__________________ If you would learn a man's character, give him authority. If you would ruin a man's character, let him seize power.

9th August 2021, 07:27 AM	#162
jadebox Master Poster Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: USA Posts: 2,254	Originally Posted by slyjoe Yea I'm sure we will see a sudden rush for vaccines once it is approved. That's an excuse not a reason. According to an article I read earlier today, most people (2/3) think the vaccines have already been approved. So, the number of people waiting for approval before getting vaccinated has to be rather small.

9th August 2021, 08:28 AM	#167
Segnosaur Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Canada, eh? Posts: 18,910	Originally Posted by sackett And that's why the situation in Florida is so pressing. If an entire state becomes a superspreader site, isn't federal action justified? Urgent action, as in a quarantine with closed borders and an air and sea blockade, mandatory masking, school shutdowns, and curfews. I think quarantining Florida (heck, most of the deep south states where vaccination rates are low) would be warranted. But, would it be constitutional? There are probably various sections in the constitution/bill of rights that would limit the ability of the federal government (or various state governments) from closing interstate borders. And given the fact that the supreme court has already ruled in favor of disease on one case involving "Mah Freedum! vs. covid restrictions", I suspect that they would see any sort of "no Floridians allowed north of the Mason Dixon line" as unconstitutional. ETA: See: Wikipedia (freedom of movement)
	__________________ Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu We are Groot - Groot Last edited by Segnosaur; 9th August 2021 at 08:29 AM.

9th August 2021, 08:44 AM	#168
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 52,730	Originally Posted by slyjoe To poke a little further: Interesting aside was Benjamin Franklin's take on the vaccine. See https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart...als-180954146/ Franklin died before the use of Cowpox was discovered. He was talking about inoculation not vaccination.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

9th August 2021, 09:16 AM	#169
CORed Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Central City, Colorado, USA Posts: 10,485	Originally Posted by Craig4 And he's dumb as a ******* post. Yes, which is apparently now a key qualification to be a Republican politician. Trump, DeSantis, Gaetz, MTG, Lauren Bobert, Mo Brooks. If you have more than half a brain, you have no future as a Republcan.

9th August 2021, 09:45 AM	#170
sackett Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Detroit Posts: 7,610	Originally Posted by Segnosaur I think quarantining Florida (heck, most of the deep south states where vaccination rates are low) would be warranted. But, would it be constitutional? There are probably various sections in the constitution/bill of rights that would limit the ability of the federal government (or various state governments) from closing interstate borders. And given the fact that the supreme court has already ruled in favor of disease on one case involving "Mah Freedum! vs. covid restrictions", I suspect that they would see any sort of "no Floridians allowed north of the Mason Dixon line" as unconstitutional. ETA: See: Wikipedia (freedom of movement) The Executive has various emergency powers that might cover such drastic action. Ideally, Congress would enact legislation that would authorize temporary measures to meet a crisis of national import -- and Covid certainly qualifies as that. If you can stop people from entering a forest fire, then surely you can keep them from leaving Florida. If Biden was 25 years younger and a flintier sort of man, he might try it now. And perhaps succeed.
	__________________ If you would learn a man's character, give him authority. If you would ruin a man's character, let him seize power.

9th August 2021, 12:36 PM	#171
Segnosaur Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Canada, eh? Posts: 18,910	Originally Posted by sackett Quote: I think quarantining Florida (heck, most of the deep south states where vaccination rates are low) would be warranted. But, would it be constitutional?...And given the fact that the supreme court has already ruled in favor of disease on one case involving "Mah Freedum! vs. covid restrictions", I suspect that they would see any sort of "no Floridians allowed north of the Mason Dixon line" as unconstitutional. The Executive has various emergency powers that might cover such drastic action. Perhaps, but like I said, any sort of emergency power use that limits inter-state travel would probably be subject to judicial review (and would probably face an unfriendly pro-death supreme court). Quote: Ideally, Congress would enact legislation that would authorize temporary measures to meet a crisis of national import -- and Covid certainly qualifies as that. Of course, they would have to get it by the Senate. While there aren't quite as many lunatics in the senate as the house, I could see some difficulty convincing a significant amount of Republican senators to go along (to avoid the fillibuster). Quote: If you can stop people from entering a forest fire, then surely you can keep them from leaving Florida. I think that a sort of measure of "immediate danger" would probably be applicable... certain death entering a forest fire, while covid kills many but not all victims. (Again, I want to stress that I would have no moral problem with a "no Florida travel" rule I think it would be a great thing. My concern is just whether it could be legally enforced.)
	__________________ Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu We are Groot - Groot

9th August 2021, 12:39 PM	#172
Trebuchet Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Port Townsend, Washington Posts: 34,387	New blood. Blood is what DeSantis has on his hands. He is killing people in his state.
	__________________ Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.

9th August 2021, 12:46 PM	#173
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 40,538	LOL triggered libs. Show me in the Constitution where we're Governors aren't allowed to intentionally kill off their citizens. I demand a civil debate about that.
	__________________ "If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong.

9th August 2021, 12:48 PM	#174
plague311 Great minds think... Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: North Dakota Posts: 12,960	COVID isn't real, I can't even imagine why we're having this conversation. Just open everything up, get everyone to herd immunity (less than .03% of people die when they get this 'seasonal cold') and lets get back to work! Florida has a great track record of leading the nation in the right direction. I can't imagine why every state shouldn't follow them now.
	__________________ “There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss

9th August 2021, 12:50 PM	#175
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 40,538	In defense waking up everyday and knowing your governor is literally trying to kill you does put the rest of the day in perspective. I'm not longer as angry when I get cut off in traffic.
	__________________ "If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong.

9th August 2021, 02:41 PM	#176
PhantomWolf Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 21,203	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue LOL triggered libs. Show me in the Constitution where we're Governors aren't allowed to intentionally kill off their citizens. I demand a civil debate about that. I'm going to suggest the 5th Amendment? Quote: Nor shall any person... be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; and the 14th... Quote: No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws. ETA: And Section 9 of Florida's Constitution. Quote: SECTION 9. Due process.—No person shall be deprived of life, liberty or property without due process of law Honestly, I'd love to see someone take De Santis to Court and argue that his banning of mask mandates and other virus-stopping methods are violations of those Constitutional clauses because it is literally a State mandated death sentance for some people.
	__________________ It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871) Last edited by PhantomWolf; 9th August 2021 at 02:55 PM.

9th August 2021, 03:14 PM	#177
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a post-fact world Posts: 96,875	Originally Posted by PhantomWolf I'm going to suggest the 5th Amendment? and the 14th... There's only one amendment that counts, and that's the Holy Second.
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

9th August 2021, 03:24 PM	#178
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 55,896	Originally Posted by sackett And that's why the situation in Florida is so pressing. If an entire state becomes a superspreader site, isn't federal action justified? Urgent action, as in a quarantine with closed borders and an air and sea blockade, mandatory masking, school shutdowns, and curfews. DiSnottis and his pals may be betsy-bug crazy, but nobody's obliged to defer to them. It would set a horrid precedent, however. Think of what a Trump could do under the excuse of "urgent action".
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

9th August 2021, 04:14 PM	#179
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 55,896	He just escalated the war on masks threateing to stop the salaries of public officials who defy his ban on masks. It is incredible..we have the governor of a major state who thinks defying science and modern medicine is the road to the White House. Scary thing he might be right. he is also behaving like a petty tyrant, but that is standard for the GOP nowdays.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

9th August 2021, 04:22 PM	#180
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 25,896	Originally Posted by dudalb He just escalated the war on masks threateing to stop the salaries of public officials who defy his ban on masks. It is incredible..we have the governor of a major state who thinks defying science and modern medicine is the road to the White House. Scary thing he might be right. he is also behaving like a petty tyrant, but that is standard for the GOP nowdays. He's showing what a great authoritarian he will be for his fans!

9th August 2021, 05:16 PM	#181
Lurch Master Poster Join Date: Sep 2016 Location: Ottawa Posts: 2,208	Originally Posted by plague311 COVID isn't real, I can't even imagine why we're having this conversation. Just open everything up, get everyone to herd immunity (less than .03% of people die when they get this 'seasonal cold') and lets get back to work! Florida has a great track record of leading the nation in the right direction. I can't imagine why every state shouldn't follow them now. The only possible chance of getting ahead of mutating variants is to have everyone remaining to be infected to be so at essentially the same time. And even then, surviving virus can still hang about, causing a slow burn of infection if there's not full immunity among a vast majority. And that can eventually lead to a variant that defeats the gains won at already high cost. Putting everyone back at square one. With killer viruses, the only sure cure is to eradicate them, to at least a sufficient degree, anyway. Who wants Covid to be a perennial bug like the cold and flu, but deadlier?

9th August 2021, 05:28 PM	#182
PhantomWolf Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 21,203	Originally Posted by Belz... There's only one amendment that counts, and that's the Holy Second. In Florida, using the 2nd Amendment solution might actually be considered self-defense.
	__________________ It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)

9th August 2021, 05:31 PM	#183
PhantomWolf Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 21,203	Originally Posted by Lurch Who wants Covid to be a perennial bug like the cold and flu, but deadlier? Apparently, a lot of the "We are just going to have to live with it" idiots. In worse news, it is being said in news channels that there is evidence that the new Lambda variant might not respond to vaccination at all. Yay!
	__________________ It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)

9th August 2021, 06:18 PM	#184
Roger Ramjets Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 5,880	Originally Posted by PhantomWolf In Florida, using the 2nd Amendment solution might actually be considered self-defense. Just wait until the next mutation, which spreads through bites and makes the infected desperately hungry for human flesh - and the only way to stop them is a head shot.
	__________________ We don't want good, sound arguments. We want arguments that sound good.

9th August 2021, 07:47 PM	#185
sackett Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Detroit Posts: 7,610	Originally Posted by dudalb It would set a horrid precedent, however. Think of what a Trump could do under the excuse of "urgent action". The precedent would be federal intervention to halt the acts of an insane prigk infesting a governor's office. Howsomever, I see your point, and I think it's a good one. Executive action would have to hedged about with laws to establish criteria for intervention, and of course time limits. I may sound like "Action this day!" but that's not at all what I mean. The Constitution comes before everything. Because that's all we've ******* got.
	__________________ If you would learn a man's character, give him authority. If you would ruin a man's character, let him seize power.

9th August 2021, 08:42 PM	#186
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 63,461	Originally Posted by sackett And that's why the situation in Florida is so pressing. If an entire state becomes a superspreader site, isn't federal action justified? Urgent action, as in a quarantine with closed borders and an air and sea blockade, mandatory masking, school shutdowns, and curfews. I'm not a big-city fancy geographist, but it seems to me that building a wall against Florida would be a lot easier than one against Mexico. Or we could actually do the Bugs Bunny sawing-off thing for real.
	__________________ You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.

9th August 2021, 09:24 PM	#187
gabeygoat Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Hard Corvallis Oregon Posts: 1,564	The Bolsinero of Florida
	__________________ "May I interest you in some coconut milk?" ~Akhenaten Wallabe Esq

9th August 2021, 09:24 PM	#188
Norman Alexander Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Gundungurra Posts: 11,944	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue LOL triggered libs. Show me in the Constitution where we're Governors aren't allowed to intentionally kill off their citizens. I demand a civil debate about that. Proposed: That this House kill off 300 people per day using a pandemic disease in order to keep businesses open in Florida. Can I hear voices for the affirmative?
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

10th August 2021, 02:55 AM	#189
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 27,184	Originally Posted by The Don When there was a global pandemic involving a highly communicable, deadly, disease whose spread could be greatly reduced by wearing masks in public spaces. I mean, if we in the West could always wear masks whenever we had a respiratory infection and/or stayed at home while we did then we'd also have much lower death tolls from influenza and vastly fewer people sick with common colds. Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets Just wait until the next mutation, which spreads through bites and makes the infected desperately hungry for human flesh - and the only way to stop them is a head shot. [OT-ish] I see Green Monkey Disease is back.
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves. Last edited by catsmate; 10th August 2021 at 02:58 AM.

10th August 2021, 09:56 AM	#190
plague311 Great minds think... Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: North Dakota Posts: 12,960	Florida is requesting 300 ventilators from the Federal Government since the cases won't stop rising. Quote: As a result of the increase in COVID-19 cases and hospitalizations, the state of Florida requested 300 ventilators from the federal government, according to a Department of Health and Human Services planning document obtained by ABC News. Something that won't shock a lot of people is that the younger generation seem to be getting hit harder with the Delta variant: Quote: Jackson Health System in Miami-Dade is reporting 363 patients across their hospitals. Only 37 of them are vaccinated — of those, 24 are Miami Transplant Institute patients. Across Jackson hospitals, they have five pediatric patients, with two in ICUs. At Nicklaus Children’s Hospital, there are 24 COVID patients ranging from babies to 18-year-olds. Seven of those patients are in the ICU. The article also details how burnt out the nurses and doctors are at this point. I can't imagine caring for someone who is so anti-science and medicine until they need you to fix the problem. Sad thing is, for some of them, there's no coming back.
	__________________ “There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss

10th August 2021, 11:59 AM	#191
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 55,896	Someone suggested the name GOvernor Dracula. It fits.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

10th August 2021, 12:09 PM	#192
Segnosaur Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Canada, eh? Posts: 18,910	From: The Hill Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis (R) has slipped behind a Democratic gubernatorial rival in a new poll as he faces scrutiny over his handling of the pandemi...45 percent of voters said they would vote for Democratic Rep. Charlie Crist (Fla.)...while 44 percent said they would back DeSantis. Seems like not even a majority of Floridians are interested in the "blood of DeSantis" . (Granted its still within the margin of error, but given that the Covid situation isn't getting any better, I can't see things turning around for him any time soon.)
	__________________ Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu We are Groot - Groot

10th August 2021, 12:19 PM	#193
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 25,896	Originally Posted by Segnosaur From: The Hill Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis (R) has slipped behind a Democratic gubernatorial rival in a new poll as he faces scrutiny over his handling of the pandemi...45 percent of voters said they would vote for Democratic Rep. Charlie Crist (Fla.)...while 44 percent said they would back DeSantis. Seems like not even a majority of Floridians are interested in the "blood of DeSantis" . (Granted its still within the margin of error, but given that the Covid situation isn't getting any better, I can't see things turning around for him any time soon.) I'd love to see FL go blue in 2022.

10th August 2021, 12:42 PM	#194
sackett Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Detroit Posts: 7,610	Gov. DeSanguine says he don't know nuffen bout no venulators, he gone check it out. But if somebody in Florida really is asking for them, this is no time for Biden to play politics. Nossir. Of course the federal official who releases them can -- and perhaps should -- stipulate changes in Florida practices to ensure that the equipment is optimally employed: strict quarantines, mandatory masking, curfews, accelerated vaccinations, school/theatre/restaurant/saloon closures, etc. Nothing drastic. Arrests can come later.
	__________________ If you would learn a man's character, give him authority. If you would ruin a man's character, let him seize power.

10th August 2021, 12:52 PM	#195
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 25,896	Broward County School Board is defying DeSantis' no mask ban. Good for them.