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#81 |
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#82 |
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This is another revealing statement. You arrived on this forum touting ideas from an article you hadn't read, about topics you know little of, to be applied to countries you've never visited. Can you see how this might be perceived as somewhat presumptuous.
To say you expected 'resistance' is, to my mind, indicative of arrogance. Your assumption appears to be that these ideas are completely right, and that the closed-minded skeptic meanies would refuse to accept them. It puts the failure of acceptance on the shoulders of the rest of the forum, rather than on you or the ideas you are promoting. Perhaps if you'd signed up expecting education instead, it might have been better. Nope. Yet another of your ill-founded assumptions. By "others like you", I meant that you are not the first person to join up, full of missionary zeal, only to find that many other people have considered these ideas before, and have gained a much wider perspective and knowledge as a result. When you, and your ilk, discover that there will be no amazed and servile submission to whatever is being proposed, and that you are, in fact, as guilty of one-sided thinking as anyone else, the reaction is depressingly inevitable: tantrums and numerous flounces. I have not suggested you are 'brain-washed', merely that your thinking suffers from the same cognitive biases as the rest of humanity. A far better approach would be to assume that your interlocutors are educated and reasonable people, and to accept an education in things you were previously uneducated about- and to accept it with thanks. I personally have learned a huge amount from my participation on this forum. A little humility goes a long way. Firstly, the accusation came from you, not me. Just for the record. The fact that you have such obvious contempt for humanity says a lot about your commitment to the ideals you claim to follow. These brainwashed sheeple are the same workers you say you want to control the world's businesses. Secondly, the world is more peaceful and more prosperous than it has ever been. Your perception of a world in chaos is another example of confirmation bias. Lastly on this one, those who claim the mainstream media is full of lies tend to be the ones who most readily accept unfounded, speculative, conspiratorial bilge, epsecially if it's dressed up with some anti-authoritarian language and a Guy Fawkes mask. That there is bias in the media is not in contention: that there is a global control of media to feed the populace lies in order to further some kind of evil agenda is paranoid fantasy. You say this, but look at your reaction when your dogmas were questioned. Note also that none of the questions -at least, that I noticed- came from a position of extreme political belief. They came from knowledge and experience of the world.Your attempt to shoehorn opposition into preconceived categories is further evidence of confirmation bias, and not a little hubris. We are. We are questioning your authority, and that of Sameal. Surely you should be happy about this? |
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#83 |
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Wrote. But which admittedly perhaps doesn't capture the essence of the books which it's trying to explain.
I'm no expert. But maybe also we're just not reading the same literature...? I've briefly visited actually, also I know people who are living there, like the guy who made THIS PODCAST (which deals with the Bolivarian Revolution but also generally lays out the difference between European and Latin American Socialism). So actually it's fine that you don't agree with my ideas. Sure I would like it if you actually responded to Samael's own ideas rather than to my interpretation of them, which was really intended just as an introduction, to explain briefly some of the books' themes and my own interpretation of what Samael might write if he were here now. It's also interesting how people responded to the points about the bombing of Japan but there wasn't a single response to me mentioning (twice) the 3 million dead in Vietnam... Honestly when I first discovered Samael I thought "this guy is a total crank". It's not easy to explain how that opinion changed, but it wasn't just an intellectual process, it was something I went through totally, emotionally, spiritually. It's my hope simply that you might see a perspective which perhaps you haven't been exposed to before. Samael I feel was very original in a lot of his ideas, he wasn't simply regurgitating the doctrines of others. Isn't it good to look at things from another angle sometimes? Otherwise the Dialectic will stagnate, for want of Antithesis. "OPPOSITION IS TRUE FRIENDSHIP" |
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#84 |
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Sorry- my mistake. I missed the question mark in your OP.
I have a Degree in Business Management. That's how I know about business and economics. That, and my own reading. My first act, on reading theories like Samael's, would have been to check if they were viable by comparing them with actual situations in the world, both current and historical. Clearly we are not approaching this in the same way, because you obviously didn't do this. Again, you appear to be basing your conclusions on the word of someone else. Who is this blogger, and why do you cite him as an authority? Then stop acting all hurt and flouncy. Sameal's ideas are misguided at best, and foolish at worst. They have been responded to here: it's just that you don't like those responses. Perhaps this was because your posts about Japan were factually incorrect, and apparently motivated by a hatred of America. That people died in the Vietnam war is not controversial: we all know that. Why do you think there was little or no comment on Vietnam? Obviously. For goodness sake. Why do you think we're here on this forum? Again, may I remind you that numerous posters examined the ideas you presented, and found them wanting. No-one- that I noticed, at any rate- summarily rejected them because of entrenched dogmatism. The ideas were poorly conceived, and based on a lack of historical and economic understanding, which is why no-one here was terribly impressed. It is revealing that you have not once acknowledged your errors. Once again, I suggest you apply these thoughts to yourself. Now you have been exposed to different perspectives, and some of your assumptions been shown to be false, are you going to change your mind? Now you're just talking bollocks. Where do you get this stuff from? ![]() |
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#85 |
Merchant of Doom
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#86 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Mar 2012
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There was no response for two reasons:
1. We try to keep the thread on topic. This one is about a long failed economic social construct, not military history. 2. Since you failed to demonstrate basic knowledge of WWII, explaining Vietnam will certainly be a lost cause since - unlike WWII - the war, and US involvement in that war is so much more complicated. Yes, we killed 1.1 North Vietnamese and Viet Cong soldiers in our 11 years in SE Asia. This was mostly because General Vo Nguyen Giap was all too happy to throw his men into our meat grinder, and had zero problem killing civilians either directly, or by placing them between his forces, and ours. Unless you can tell me how many opposing sides there were in Vietnam I'm not wasting any more time. Vietnam was 50 years ago, live in the now. |
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#87 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Tragedy of Veitnam is that it was basically a feud between two oppressive, corrupt governments in which the US got involved out of a misguided belief that somehow we were defending democracy.
If Vietnam had a lot of strategic value, you could justify that in a Cold War Context, but Vietman's strategic value was nil. If nothing else, it was a waste of a vast amount of resources on a poor strategic objective. The tragedy is not that the government of South Vietnam was overthrown, but the what the Vienamese people got was no better;in fact in many ways was worse. |
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Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. |
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#88 |
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#89 |
Philosopher
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Shankara how is this idea different from Utopian Socialism?
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#90 |
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There definitely seem to be some strong parallels between the two ideas...
Perhaps there is a difference in the means to be employed in the struggle. For example Samael says that the different religions should unite and struggle together for the triumph of spiritual socialism. Indeed the primacy and necessity of religion, is a key aspect of Samael’s thought. Furthermore he isn’t saying that everyone can necessarily be convinced by reasoning to start voluntarily practising distributive justice, he’s quite strong in advocating for union organizing, strikes etc., to put up a fight against the powerful even if this fight is non-violent. He does believe in a revolution, just one founded on Ahimsa. At the same time he does talk about a practical form of politics based on deed rather than word which might be seen as a means of convincing the masses, by reason, of the correctness of socialist ideas. Samael is not against Dialectical Reason (quite the contrary), he simply doesn’t accept the Dialectical Materialism of Marx. He rejects Engel’s saying that there are Dialectical leaps, that the quantitative transforms into the qualitative: “Water when heating or cooling, where the boiling point and the freezing point are the nodes in which the apparent jump to a new state of cohesion occurs, that is, in which the quantity apparently changes in quality, the leap is apparent because it is not really the quantity that has changed in quality, within the apparent leap there has been a whole process of selection within the concepts of time, space and movement. The nodes of Hegel cannot cause leaps, but only orderly and methodical changes.” Therefore Samael is not opposed to Scientific Socialism, but the pseudo-Science of Marx, which lacks the comprehension of metaphysics, reduces the Cosmos to “matter”, and reduces humanity to being mere machines of production and consumption, animals in need only of animal comforts. I’m afraid I’m not expert enough to offer any further commentary. |
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#91 |
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Once again, Samael shows the impracticable and undesirable qualities of his theories.
For a start, the idea that the world's religions will 'unite and struggle together' over anything, let alone something as vague and far-fetched as Spiritual Socalism, is vanishingly unlikely. The religions of the world have been fighting each other since religion began, and, if that wasn;t enough, they also have a habit of splintering into sects and branches, which also fight amongst each other. I would go so far to say that religion is one of the most divisive forces on the planet. Furthermore, that religion is necessary, and should be a prime force in our world, is far from obvious. The amount of suffering, abuse and injustice caused by religions- and I mean the teachings as well as the practitioners- should rather mean they should be relegated to the dustbin of history. What are the qualities of relgions that Samael believes should make them the arbiters of our fates? |
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#92 |
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Basically Samael considers the organized religions to be merely husks, shells which once contained the true esoteric doctrine. Nonetheless he considers that they maintain Eternal Values (a kind of perennialist position).
I agree that they do expend a lot of energy debating about doctrines rather than actually engaging in practical action. But if they were going to unite about anything, I'd say that creating a better social structure would be the thing. They already have some common ground in terms of charity, helping the poor etc., so struggling for a new order (or at least expanding their charitable work) seems a logical next step. Perhaps Samael is trying to inspire people to take action individually, or in small collectives, rather than hoping to inspire the pope and the grand mufti. |
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#93 |
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Strange, then that they can never agree what these eternal values are.
Strange also that these so-called eternal values keep changing as civilisation advances. Consider slavery, the caste system, the Divine Right of Kings, human and animal sacrifices, the law of dhimmi (the systemised oppression of non-Muslims, especially Jews, in Muslim countries), women's rights, gay rights....All once touted as eternal values, now, thankfully, not so much. If organised religions are merely husks, why does Sameal think them necessary and worthy of ruling us? Yet again, this notion does not survive its first brush with reality. Almost every step forward humanity has made has been bitterly opposed by the world's religions. Not only the issues I mentioned above, but also scientific and technological progress, ideas like the concept of a fair trial (not the case under dhimmi or Sharia, or in Christian witch trials either) and (at times) new movements in art and literature. Far too often, the charity work is a mask for indoctrination, abuse and control. This has led to the infamous Mother Teresa and her welcoming of suffering, to the scandal of abuse in Catholic children's' homes and schools, and to the setting-up of extremist madrassas in Pakistan and elsewhere, which has spawned a global wave of jihadist extremism. Well, he needs to do a lot more research, and a lot more thinking. Being slightly more specific wouldn't hurt either. |
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#94 |
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#95 |
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To put it another way, what's your perspective on abortion?
Because for me this is an example of how religions prevent, or strive to prevent, humanity falling into utter barbarism. |
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#96 |
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Frankly, this idea is the same as every other "perfect society" idea I've ever heard. They only work if you ignore human nature and assume full buy-in from everyone.
Communism would work, if everyone followed it's precepts. But whenever implemented, people rise that take advantage of the system, and the "fairness" of communism feels distinctly unfair to many due to human nature. A Libertarian society would work, if people actually had enlightened self-interest. Instead, short-term gains are prized above long-term losses, actions are based on incomplete information, and human nature prevents those not affected by the unscrupulous or starting from a lower position from being the counterweight it's claimed they would be. And similar for all of these utopia ideas. The test of a system isn't "If everyone follows it this would work". The real test is "Will this work even if a large part of the people don't like it/want it, and a significant minority actively tries to sabotage it?" |
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#97 |
Penultimate Amazing
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As I understand Marxist Communism, industrialization was supposed to trigger the natural evolution of human nature from the fallen state of Capitalism to the state of grace of Communism. Human nature was not ignored; rather, Marx predicted that human nature would change into something better, and this new nature would be compatible with Communism. Indeed, these evolved humans would need nor want no other system. Communism was predicted originally as a perfect society arising naturally from a perfect humanity.
Lenin's modification was to propose that we don't need to wait for the evolutionary process to run its course. Communism could be jump-started into existence, even in a society that hadn't yet fully industrialized. Where Marx predicted natural evolution, the Soviet Union was an effort of intelligent design: If you build the perfect society, and force people to conform to it, you will create perfect people. It is my theory that any system of government based on the idea that humanity is perfectible is doomed to fail horrifically and at great cost to human life. A petty dictator is bad enough. A well-meaning totalitarian is a monster. |
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#98 |
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A zømbie once bit my sister... |
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#99 |
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#100 |
Penultimate Amazing
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#101 |
Merchant of Doom
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#102 |
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Quote:
Care to try again? |
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#103 |
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#104 |
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Yes, religious forms fall into corruption due to the influence of the dark forces which infiltrate them and human weakness. Often texts are lost, edited or misinterpreted, prime example being the Roman Bible. But spirituality itself remains pure, there are also forces of light and awakening, this is why I mentioned the notion of the religious man who belongs to no religion...
To some extent there is some light left in the popular religious forms. A kind of muddied light, mixed almost inextricably with darkness, but a light nonetheless. There is logic in rejecting the current organized religions because of this polluted quality. We would certainly be better off without dogma and this whole "my God is bigger and stronger than your God" business... Personally I think a lot of Jihadism is tacitly encouraged by the CIA etc to give an excuse for ever more surveillance of the population. I also think that whatever lies these religious schools might be teaching, these lies come from the dogmas and outward forms rather than spirituality itself:
Originally Posted by Ramakrishna
Of course you have to raise the most extreme and emotive example... Personally I feel that as the child is innocent, the child is not responsible for how he or she was conceived. I believe that to bring that child into the world would ultimately be a process of healing for the mother, though it would be best (and should perhaps be obligatory) that the child be adopted. In other cases, the whole abortion thing is a testament to how utterly inverted and misguided our society is. In England two doctors must say there is "a risk to the physical or mental health of the mother" if the baby is born in order for an abortion to be legal. Evidently the risk to physical health is rare, so the doctors are basically saying that having an abortion would be good for the woman's mental health... Anyway, without being "flouncey" I don't know that I have time to keep contributing to this thread so often, though I'll try to check in now and again... |
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#105 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. |
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#106 |
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#107 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. |
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#108 |
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#109 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2011
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Really? Just like you when you come up with this emotive garbage.
Obviously, a zygote is not a child. Please enlighten us as to when exactly a "child" occurs in your opinion. Savita Halappanavar is dead along with her unborn fetus because of people who think like you. So a stealth flounce. |
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Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
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#110 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. |
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#111 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
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And the CIA wishes it was one tenth as powerful as people like Shankara think it is.
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Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. |
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#112 |
Master Poster
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Please cite one single example of how our lives have been improved by "intuition developed by spiritual practise". Navel-gazing does not cure diseases, invent technology, discover laws of nature or improve human rights.
It is a logical extension of your argument, and one of the reasons many countries have rules that women have a right to abortions. You chose to talk about this, don't forget, rather than all the other examples you ignored. Have you spoken to many women about this theory? So you want workers to have control over the means of production, but not the means of reproduction? Nice. Here you go again. Can I just ask: do you think you have learned anything from your time here? You have been corrected on a number of occasions, but, each time, your response is to maintain your incorrect views, and simply refuse to participate in the discussion any more. (For a couple of hours, at least). I pointed out your dependence on dogma and authority. You dismissed this, but nonetheless, you continue to display a dogmatic approach and a resistance to adapting your ideas when encountering new evidence. Is this an example of "intuition developed by spiritual practise"? Because, as a demonstration of the concept, it's not very impressive. |
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#113 |
Philosopher
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Questions, comments, queries, bitches, complaints, rude gestures and/or remarks? |
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#114 |
Scholar
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 91
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“If he had been Antichrist Creeping Jesus
Hed have done any thing to please us Gone sneaking into Synagogues And not usd the Elders & Priests like dogs But Humble as a Lamb or Ass Obeyd himself to Caiaphas God wants not Man to Humble himself This is the trick of the ancient Elf This is the Race that Jesus ran Humble to God Haughty to Man Cursing the Rulers before the People Even to the temples highest Steeple And when he Humbled himself to God Then descended the Cruel Rod” I like William Blake a lot because he's kind of coming from the place that visions and intuitions are superior to mere scholarly logic. I'll go over what you all said briefly. Of course if I respond then you make out that I'm some kind of simpleton way too uneducated to comprehend your sublime discourse and if I don't want to hang around fighting a pointless battle then I'm easily offended or melodramatically acting wounded. We've strayed quite a long way from the original points as well. - Of course a Zygote is a child, it's a unique genetic existence. - A pregnant woman's body belongs to the child as much as it does to her. - Have I ever spoken to women about this? Yes, and unfortunately many women are conditioned by the feminist agenda to get angry when the notion of self-responsibility is suggested to them. I've also spoken to women who agree with me that life begins from the moment of conception. - Am I demonstrating that spiritual intuition is better than logic? The characteristic of spiritual awakening is that forces of darkness attack it. - I "sound like a 9/11 Truther"? Is that a bad thing? Because yes of course I'm a 9/11 Truther. |
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#115 |
Scholar
Join Date: Apr 2018
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Anyway, this is all going to go around in circles, we aren't actually talking just butting egos.
Om Mani Padme Hum... |
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#116 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Detroit
Posts: 5,364
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Oh man, I pat me some, by gum
Intuition? Visions? Mere rationality? Come now, Shank. How is this different from making things up and then believing them?
Why stop now? Why don't you take up Madam Blavatski? Edgar Cayce? Norman Vincent Peale? Hey, with your approach, the whole universe is your little oyster. Calling Kumar, come in, Kumar. Over. |
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Fill the seats of justice with good men; not so absolute in goodness as to forget what human frailty is. -- Thomas Jefferson What region of the earth is not filled with our calamities? -- Virgil |
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#117 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
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I fine the OP's praise of Sprituarity over Religion to be amusing since Spirituality is just Religion under a different brand name.
And trying to force Eastern Religion...I guess Hinduism in this case..down our throats is no better then forcing Christiniaty down our throats. |
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Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. |
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#118 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Wow, that first statement is going to go over well on e webpage devoted to rational thought.
What it really means is my feelings are superior to reality. We have US President who thinks is intuitions and gut feelings are superior to rationality. And it's not turning out too well. As for the second statement, yeah, being a 9/11 Truther is a bad thing. |
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Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. |
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#119 |
Illuminator
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#120 |
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