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Old 29th November 2017, 04:27 PM   #41
Yeggster
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
We can't just cut emissions; we have to develop sequestration technology. And both have to happen now. And even then, we've already got a certain amount of committed warming baked in. ......
The BEST way to cut pollution emissions is to REDUCE the number of vehicles (ships airplanes trains) AND reduce SHIPPING and travel in general ...

We do NOT NEED (and never needed) ready to serve, single serving, pre-packaged, mixed vegetable salads, in Toronto ... that were made in California the day before. Just because we CAN do something and make a profit .. does not mean we should

Same goes for 99% (exaggerating for effect) of the plastic crap sold at dollar stores ... is it worth the pollution to have $1 oven-mitts
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Old 29th November 2017, 05:20 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Yeggster View Post
Industry has made fantastic strides in this area since the 1970's and 80's ... they use MUCH less plastic to make plastic bags and bottle ... like WAY less, by making the plastic stronger while still being thinner.
Not even the tip of the iceberg..

The strides have been made in the use of plastic for everything imaginable..

Think of all the foodstuffs that are now packaged in plastic compared to the 70's and 80's..

Think of plumbing, construction, automobiles, aircraft.. it goes on and on.

P.S.

Don't know why I didn't bother with Google above, but Now that I have:

Global plastic production from 1950 to 2015 (in million metric tons)*

Increase from 100 million metric tons in 1989, to 322 million metric tons in 2015..
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Old 29th November 2017, 05:24 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
You won't. But thanks. That's on behalf of my kids.
Oh? And when will your kids see the global warming impact lessen, from my actions?
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Old 3rd December 2017, 01:05 AM   #44
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It counts in the same way your vote counts.
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Old 4th December 2017, 01:55 PM   #45
theprestige
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Originally Posted by Cheetah View Post
It counts in the same way your vote counts.
Pretty sure it doesn't count in that way.
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Old 4th December 2017, 03:03 PM   #46
xjx388
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Originally Posted by Yeggster View Post
The BEST way to cut pollution emissions is to REDUCE the number of vehicles (ships airplanes trains) AND reduce SHIPPING and travel in general ...

We do NOT NEED (and never needed) ready to serve, single serving, pre-packaged, mixed vegetable salads, in Toronto ... that were made in California the day before. Just because we CAN do something and make a profit .. does not mean we should

Same goes for 99% (exaggerating for effect) of the plastic crap sold at dollar stores ... is it worth the pollution to have $1 oven-mitts
Our modern society seems to think that yes, it is worth it. Until that attitude changes, nothing else will.
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Old 4th December 2017, 03:37 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Pretty sure it doesn't count in that way.
I think that's fair. You and I can do our part, but it matters less than the big polluters.

That said, surely we ought to do what we can, because it matters somewhat. The alternative is to care not a damn.
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Old 4th December 2017, 04:30 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
There's 2...

How about 20% less plastic ?

Really.. The only way to make consumers stop consuming, is to reduce the supply..

How do you propose we make that happen.
plastic is a problem seperate from global warming

if we did what we need to do and build a **** ton of nuclear power stations we could make as much plastic as we want and have no problem at all with global warming..

we would still need to deal with the plastic tho
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Old 4th December 2017, 06:27 PM   #49
theprestige
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
I think that's fair. You and I can do our part, but it matters less than the big polluters.
How much less, is my question.

Quote:
That said, surely we ought to do what we can, because it matters somewhat. The alternative is to care not a damn.
Care not a damn about an infinitesimal change to a future state I will never live to see? Okay, sure.

But it's a false dichotomy. There are other alternatives. What does "it matters somewhat" even mean? One alternative is to figure out what matters, that we can actually make a difference about. And then invest our time and energy into that. I'm opposed to pollution for reasons that have nothing to do with global warming. And there's practical, meaningful things I can do about pollution that will have an effect in my lifetime. And I can do them without giving a rat's ass about your AGW narrative.

Last edited by theprestige; 4th December 2017 at 06:33 PM.
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Old 4th December 2017, 07:08 PM   #50
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Global warming is a textbook collective action problem, like voting.

It's important in a democracy that people vote. It's irrelevant whether you vote. You can free ride on the people who show up.

The only plausible solution to a collective action problem of this scale is state regulation.
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Old 5th December 2017, 10:47 AM   #51
theprestige
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
Global warming is a textbook collective action problem, like voting.

It's important in a democracy that people vote. It's irrelevant whether you vote. You can free ride on the people who show up.

The only plausible solution to a collective action problem of this scale is state regulation.
And even then it's not very plausible.
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Old 5th December 2017, 10:55 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
How much less, is my question.



Care not a damn about an infinitesimal change to a future state I will never live to see? Okay, sure.

But it's a false dichotomy. There are other alternatives. What does "it matters somewhat" even mean? One alternative is to figure out what matters, that we can actually make a difference about. And then invest our time and energy into that. I'm opposed to pollution for reasons that have nothing to do with global warming. And there's practical, meaningful things I can do about pollution that will have an effect in my lifetime. And I can do them without giving a rat's ass about your AGW narrative.
This reflects the way I feel about it. I drive an electric car and a hybrid because it saves me gas money over the alternative. I'm looking at solar power for the house for similar reasons; but, I don't think it's quite there yet cost-effectiveness wise. Also, there is a "cool" factor. I'm against pollution because I want my drinking water pure, my air breathable and my wide open spaces clean. The focus should be on improving things on that level and less on nebulous threats about a future that, frankly speaking, I really don't care about because I won't be there and neither will my kids or even my kid's kids.
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Old 5th December 2017, 12:09 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
This reflects the way I feel about it. I drive an electric car and a hybrid because it saves me gas money over the alternative. I'm looking at solar power for the house for similar reasons; but, I don't think it's quite there yet cost-effectiveness wise. Also, there is a "cool" factor. I'm against pollution because I want my drinking water pure, my air breathable and my wide open spaces clean. The focus should be on improving things on that level and less on nebulous threats about a future that, frankly speaking, I really don't care about because I won't be there and neither will my kids or even my kid's kids.
So it's all about you and yours.

Got it, but I wish you would get off my planet.
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Old 5th December 2017, 12:32 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Yeggster View Post
The BEST way to cut pollution emissions is to REDUCE the number of vehicles (ships airplanes trains) AND reduce SHIPPING and travel in general ...

We do NOT NEED (and never needed) ready to serve, single serving, pre-packaged, mixed vegetable salads, in Toronto ... that were made in California the day before. Just because we CAN do something and make a profit .. does not mean we should

Same goes for 99% (exaggerating for effect) of the plastic crap sold at dollar stores ... is it worth the pollution to have $1 oven-mitts
Also if the value of labor were consistent from nation to nation then it would stop being profitable to manufacture in China and ship to the US
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Old 5th December 2017, 12:36 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by bobdroege7 View Post
So it's all about you and yours.

Got it, but I wish you would get off my planet.
Why? He wants the same things you want, and he's working towards the same things you're working towards. The only thing that's different is his motivation: He doesn't subscribe to your particular orthodoxy to justify his efforts.
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Old 5th December 2017, 01:25 PM   #56
xjx388
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Originally Posted by bobdroege7 View Post
So it's all about you and yours.
Of course it is; Im human. As a member of the animal kingdom,I am primarily concerned with the survival of me and mine. The environmental movement would do well to acknowledge basic human self-interest if they want to advance their agenda.

Id be willing to bet that, if we could see into their minds, people who post statements like yours in this post (not you, of course, Im sure you are fine) are posting primarily out of a desire to signal to others that they are one of the good guys -this desire is rooted in self-interest.



Quote:
Got it, but I wish you would get off my planet.
I wish I could, for a variety of reasons.

One of those reasons is having a fresh start on some hospitable planet where we can apply what weve learned in making our home planet less hospitable than it could be.

Another reason is to get away from the doomsayers and moralizers who berate me for doing the right thing but for the wrong reasons.
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Old 5th December 2017, 01:43 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
How much less, is my question.



Care not a damn about an infinitesimal change to a future state I will never live to see? Okay, sure.

But it's a false dichotomy. There are other alternatives. What does "it matters somewhat" even mean? One alternative is to figure out what matters, that we can actually make a difference about. And then invest our time and energy into that. I'm opposed to pollution for reasons that have nothing to do with global warming. And there's practical, meaningful things I can do about pollution that will have an effect in my lifetime. And I can do them without giving a rat's ass about your AGW narrative.
I'm a little puzzled by the fact you don't give a damned about global warming. Why is that?

No matter where you live, it will affect you, most likely adversely.
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Old 5th December 2017, 01:58 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
I'm a little puzzled by the fact you don't give a damned about global warming. Why is that?
Probably because you misunderstood what I wrote. But let's review anyway: I've asked repeatedly for concrete data about what I can do to affect global warming, and about the magnitude of the effect I can have. The answer has been that whatever I do, it will have a negligible effect, and even that not until long after I am dead. That seems like a terrible basis for a call to action. If that's what you're asking me to care about, then no, I don't care. There are much better things for me to put my time and effort into. Things that have significant effects in the near term, to make life better for people.

Quote:
No matter where you live, it will affect you, most likely adversely.
There's a difference between caring about the effects of climate change on my local weather, and caring about the progressive AGW narrative.
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Old 5th December 2017, 02:18 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Probably because you misunderstood what I wrote. But let's review anyway: I've asked repeatedly for concrete data about what I can do to affect global warming, and about the magnitude of the effect I can have. The answer has been that whatever I do, it will have a negligible effect, and even that not until long after I am dead. That seems like a terrible basis for a call to action. If that's what you're asking me to care about, then no, I don't care. There are much better things for me to put my time and effort into. Things that have significant effects in the near term, to make life better for people.


There's a difference between caring about the effects of climate change on my local weather, and caring about the progressive AGW narrative.
Thanks for your thorough clarification.

You don't have any self-interested reason to give a damn. If you give a damn, it's only because you regard it as a moral duty to subsequent generations.

Which I do.
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Old 5th December 2017, 02:47 PM   #60
theprestige
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Thanks for your thorough clarification.

You don't have any self-interested reason to give a damn. If you give a damn, it's only because you regard it as a moral duty to subsequent generations.

Which I do.
I have a hard time seeing the moral duty in making negligible changes to future states. More to the point, I've made it clear that if you believe in "a moral duty to subsequent generations", then it's in your self interest to appeal to my self interest in order to get my support for your cause. But instead of doing that, you've chosen to chide me for not subscribing to your particular religion.

Sometimes* I begin to suspect that the prog AGW narrative is less about salvaging the current climate for future generations, and more about othering anyone in the current generation who does not express Correct Thought.










---
*Sometimes?
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Old 6th December 2017, 08:02 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post

Id be willing to bet that, if we could see into their minds, people who post statements like yours in this post (not you, of course, Im sure you are fine) are posting primarily out of a desire to signal to others that they are one of the good guys -this desire is rooted in self-interest.

I don't know if I am truly one of the good guys, let others judge.

Sometimes self interest coincides with the interests of the whole group.

Altruism is not dead, at least not in my career path.

A synonym for nebulous is hazy, and one could say it's pretty hazy in southern California lately, and some would say there is a AGW link there.
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Old 7th December 2017, 01:35 AM   #62
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I have an answer for what you can do to have a positive effect in the climate change issue: stop voting for people who deny there is a problem.

It's effective, I promise.
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