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Tags donald trump , lying charges , Trump controversies

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Old 12th May 2019, 11:19 AM   #41
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NPR did a lovely take down on Trump in the last two days re: his ripoffs of Deutschebank by stiffing three different departments of the bank by basically losing lots of money to one division then going to another for loans which he used to partially pay off the first one -to the extent he ever paid off any of them. The idiots had their divisions separated from each other so that none knew for a long time what/how Trump was robbing them and the bank almost went under. The money is still owed and is part of what the NYTimes was reporting on recently. Just on that he should be in jail!!!

I actually stopped and parked to hear the entire piece - an hour or so long and very detailed!!
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Old 12th May 2019, 11:41 AM   #42
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Actually, DB probably knew all about Trump even before the forst loan, but there seemed to be such a messed-up incentive structure in play that rewards risks loans without repercussions for defaults.
DB is not the victim here, their shareholders/savers are.
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Old 13th May 2019, 01:57 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Actually, DB probably knew all about Trump even before the forst loan, but there seemed to be such a messed-up incentive structure in play that rewards risks loans without repercussions for defaults.
DB is not the victim here, their shareholders/savers are.
Certainly in an organisation like Goldman Sachs, where the lowest-performing 10% are fired each year, there is a perverse incentive to take risks. If you make sensible decisions, the investment might be safe for five years, but it's almost certainly going to be outperformed by some high-reward, high-risk investment over the next year, so you'd be underperforming.
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Old 14th May 2019, 01:28 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife View Post
Can we just clear something up here? Do those that keep repeating that Trump "lies all the time" believe that most other politicians, not least HRC, don't lie? Or that they "don't lie as much"?

Mod InfoThese were split from the Mueller Report thread. They were just off topic enough to be moved out of there to here.
Posted By:kmortis
Politicians frequently stretch the truth as far as they can without telling n outright lie. Sometimes they push it to far, other times they simply make mistakes or don't quite phrase it they way they intend and cross the line that way.

Trump outright lies regularly and frequently without any regards to whether he's caught or not. He just assumes his base is to stupid to notice or simply doesn't care that what he's saying is a lie. This is quite different than most politicians, even the ones willing to tell outright lies.
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Old 14th May 2019, 02:02 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Politicians frequently stretch the truth as far as they can without telling n outright lie. Sometimes they push it to far, other times they simply make mistakes or don't quite phrase it they way they intend and cross the line that way.

Trump outright lies regularly and frequently without any regards to whether he's caught or not. He just assumes his base is to stupid to notice or simply doesn't care that what he's saying is a lie. This is quite different than most politicians, even the ones willing to tell outright lies.
Exactly - many politicians dissemble, but few lie on inconsequential things that can be shown to be lies. Trump says whatever he thinks makes him sound good, even if that means his lies are inconsistent or unimportant.
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Old 16th May 2019, 11:58 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
as a rule of thumb, they lie 2 to 4 orders of magnitude less.
I think it is clear that at Trump's level of dishonesty, it is not just a quantitative, but also a qualitative difference.
Of course they lies also tend to have far fewer totally divorced from reality as well, like windmill cancer. I mean is that even a lie or what?
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Old 16th May 2019, 12:19 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Exactly. Even Goebbels knew what truth was.

I am not sure that Trump does. In fact, given how hurt he seems when people point out verifiable facts, I'd be more surprised if someone told me that Trump was able to separate truth and his lies
Exactly Trump is the first postmodernist president, the truth is what ever he wants it to be at the time and no one can say otherwise.
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Old 18th May 2019, 09:33 AM   #48
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A Norwegian newspaper just ran a feature about Norwegian-Americans, and there was this woman who said she trusted Trump more than any other politician. She argued that he spent his own money and wasn't "bought and paid for" by anyone, to translate directly from Norwegian. It's difficult to tell how sincere someone is being just from reading what they've said, but she did "sound" like she really believed it.

The fact that anyone can look at all of Trump's lies and trust him, or even believe he is more trustworthy than any other politician, as she said, just boggles the mind. I suppose it's something psychologists and sociologists will study for decades.

edit: I suppose maybe they believe they've found some sort of "core" in Trump which they trust, such as that he will save the US from rapists from Mexican countries, and then they believe that his lies and inconsistencies are just entertainment and trolling.
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Last edited by Safe-Keeper; 18th May 2019 at 09:35 AM. Reason: I always think of more to say just as I've hit Submit -_-.
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Old 18th May 2019, 09:58 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper View Post
A Norwegian newspaper just ran a feature about Norwegian-Americans, and there was this woman who said she trusted Trump more than any other politician. She argued that he spent his own money and wasn't "bought and paid for" by anyone, to translate directly from Norwegian. It's difficult to tell how sincere someone is being just from reading what they've said, but she did "sound" like she really believed it.

The fact that anyone can look at all of Trump's lies and trust him, or even believe he is more trustworthy than any other politician, as she said, just boggles the mind. I suppose it's something psychologists and sociologists will study for decades.

edit: I suppose maybe they believe they've found some sort of "core" in Trump which they trust, such as that he will save the US from rapists from Mexican countries, and then they believe that his lies and inconsistencies are just entertainment and trolling.
A colleague was discussing this sort of thing with me and mentioned the word "truthiness", which seems to cover that.

I can almost see how it happens. If you like simplistic analyses (which, judging by the relative sales of UK papers, a lot of people do) then nuance might turn someone off - let alone the idea of unintended consequences*. "Oh you can prove anything with statistics". "All the newspapers lie". "All politicians lie".

You can accuse Trump of many things, but few people would accuse him of nuance.

*For example, that teaching abstinence-only sex-ed not only leads to more teenage pregnancy, but more teenage sexual activity than normal sex-ed.
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Old 18th May 2019, 11:14 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Every human being lies on occasion. But let's be honest, (sorry, couldn't help myself) Trump lies more than all the other politicians combined. It's non-stop with Trump. I've NEVER EVER seen someone like Trump.
He does remind me of one of my little brothers, whom I strongly suspect is narcissistic, and coincidentally, one of our mutual friends in childhood.

He would practically never take responsibility for anything he had done, or any mistakes he made. He would pretend not to know what you talked about when you confronted him with things, or get angry or sarcastic, or flounce out of the room, or deny it happened at all, or, when you corrected him about something he was wrong about, say he was only joking.

He would do this regardlessly of how obvious it was to everyone that he was lying.

Our mutual friend had a bit of a different approach, which was closer to the trumpkins of today, in that he would launch into whataboutisms like "have you never..." in addition to all the denials. He also had a habit of cheating and bending rules whenever we played board games, often pretty obviously.

Needless to say, my kid self would often get furious with both of them. I'm not on good terms with my brother and try to avoid that friend from childhood when I can. And again, they both remind me of Trump. Zero willingness to admit responsibility for even the tiniest wrongdoing or mistake, and hostility to whoever is rude enough to dare accuse them of doing anything wrong.
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Old 18th May 2019, 01:09 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Of course they lies also tend to have far fewer totally divorced from reality as well, like windmill cancer. I mean is that even a lie or what?
Well, that one was phrased so bizarrely that I am not sure it was a lie:
“And they say the noise causes cancer! You tell me that one, ok? Rehrrrr rehrrrr!!!”

Then again, his statement was designed to mislead people. I guess that is close enough to the definition of a lie to call the man a liar.

.......
I miss presidents who could construct a series of linked cogent statements.
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Old 18th May 2019, 07:00 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper View Post
A Norwegian newspaper just ran a feature about Norwegian-Americans, and there was this woman who said she trusted Trump more than any other politician. She argued that he spent his own money and wasn't "bought and paid for" by anyone, to translate directly from Norwegian. It's difficult to tell how sincere someone is being just from reading what they've said, but she did "sound" like she really believed it.

The fact that anyone can look at all of Trump's lies and trust him, or even believe he is more trustworthy than any other politician, as she said, just boggles the mind. I suppose it's something psychologists and sociologists will study for decades.

edit: I suppose maybe they believe they've found some sort of "core" in Trump which they trust, such as that he will save the US from rapists from Mexican countries, and then they believe that his lies and inconsistencies are just entertainment and trolling.
This is not hard to explain. People who 'trust' Trump are either stupid or live in an alternate reality where Trump is also a faithful husband, an excellent businessman, a stable genius, has one of the greatest memories and brains of all time, and is the most popular president ever...including Lincoln.
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Old 19th May 2019, 03:17 AM   #53
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There is an interesting opinion about the lies of Trump and John Bolton, with which I agree in a way, from the New York Times in 2018. I find it rather alarming. War is still a fearful thing even if it doesn't concern you directly:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/23/o...y-adviser.html

Quote:
The good thing about John Bolton, President Trump’s new national security adviser, is that he says what he thinks.

The bad thing is what he thinks.

There are few people more likely than Mr. Bolton is to lead the country into war. His selection is a decision that is as alarming as any Mr. Trump has made. His selection, along with the nomination of the hard-line C.I.A. director, Mike Pompeo, as secretary of state, shows the degree to which Mr. Trump is indulging his worst nationalistic instincts.

Mr. Bolton, in particular, believes the United States can do what it wants without regard to international law, treaties or the political commitments of previous administrations.

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Old 22nd May 2019, 10:43 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife View Post
Can we just clear something up here? Do those that keep repeating that Trump "lies all the time" believe that most other politicians, not least HRC, don't lie? Or that they "don't lie as much"?

Mod InfoThese were split from the Mueller Report thread. They were just off topic enough to be moved out of there to here.
Posted By:kmortis
Don't lie as much.


By a few orders of magnitude.
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Old 22nd May 2019, 10:45 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
Related, but slightly different, is zero consistency in his proclamations.

Saying he was "100%" willing to talk to Mueller - until he wasn't.

Saying he would release his taxes if nominated - until he changed his mind.

Saying he would not object to Mueller testifying - until he objected.

And on and on. Unsettling enough in these matters. I think the situation will become grave in the event of a real crisis where his words and promises have zero weight with anyone.
Hell, Trump has told three or more mutually exclusive lies in a few days, on several occasions.
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Old 22nd May 2019, 11:22 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Whereas most people, even politicians rarely lie.
You actually believe this?
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Old 22nd May 2019, 12:56 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
Hell, Trump has told three or more mutually exclusive lies in a few days, on several occasions.
Hell it caused newspapers of the same day to run opposite headlines.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/ws...ump-headlines/
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Old 22nd May 2019, 01:20 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Actually, DB probably knew all about Trump even before the forst loan, but there seemed to be such a messed-up incentive structure in play that rewards risks loans without repercussions for defaults.
DB is not the victim here, their shareholders/savers are.
AKA the Principle-Agent problem. The people making the lending decision get rewarded based on the performance of the loan while they are there, even if itís ďrepaidĒ by borrowing money from the same bank. Ultimately of course the loans will be defaulted on, but the decision maker has already been paid and has likely already moved on to some other position.

The incentive for the person making the decision isnít whether shareholders will benefit in the long run, rather itís the appearance of success in the very short term even if it damages the company in the long run. Itís the same problem banks had with sub-prime lending, or IBM had when itís CEO cut much of itís technical capability to show a short term gain even though it would mean much slower growth down the line.
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Old 22nd May 2019, 01:30 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
AKA the Principle-Agent problem. The people making the lending decision get rewarded based on the performance of the loan while they are there, even if itís ďrepaidĒ by borrowing money from the same bank. Ultimately of course the loans will be defaulted on, but the decision maker has already been paid and has likely already moved on to some other position.

The incentive for the person making the decision isnít whether shareholders will benefit in the long run, rather itís the appearance of success in the very short term even if it damages the company in the long run. Itís the same problem banks had with sub-prime lending, or IBM had when itís CEO cut much of itís technical capability to show a short term gain even though it would mean much slower growth down the line.
It is the rational action - especially in a hypercompetitive employer where the bottom-performing 10% each year get fired. In a bull market, you have to take risky decisions or you'd be one of the bottom 10%, and if the market turns, you'd probably be out anyway, so why bother?
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Old 22nd May 2019, 02:09 PM   #60
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One more for the it being the bald faced nature of Trump's lies. He will literally say something that is clearly not true and easily shown to be not true without out a thought. Its bizarre frankly.

Most politicians at least leave room for plausible deniability, Trump does not.

Also, the volume of lies.

And to be fair, mostly it's not so much lying as it is ********. With ********, the truth doesn't matter. I don't think Trump spends anytime wondering if something is true or not before he says it. Fine for the old man drinking coffee in the *hardware store not so much for the president.

Not always true of course but I really think it probably true most of the time. He just doesn't ask if something his true and if some says it isn't he doesn't care.

This is however a big part of his appeal, his "being a straight shooter" really just means he doesn't speak carefully in the way most politicians do. This one reason Mayor Pete his so good, he pretty much always sounds authentic. A sharp contrast to Clinton, Harris and Booker. They often sound like they've run everything they say by a focus group. Biden goes back and forth.

*Do old men still do that or have they all moved to Starbucks?

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Old 22nd May 2019, 02:25 PM   #61
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When you confuse myth with fact, everyone who disagrees is not only a liar, but a heretic.

Looks like around 30% of any given Western population would happily burn people at the stake. Seems they were never conquered or convinced by civilization, recently they were merely less visible because their views were frowned upon (by decent people) and they had far fewer public avenues of expression.

For the US, 911 broke all the furniture and woodwork, and out they came, clubs swinging, mouthing grandiose claims and beating chests. Slowly, the same seems to be resulting from Merkel's grand bet on common humanity in the EU; bravo, but the winds are changing. The UK seems to find ways to discover its own nightmare version of the dimmest side of Republicanism, now with a fast disappearing hem and haw about acting the boor. The French follow grandiose theory and could give a damn about practical matters, so god help us. Been a long time since anyone could look to southern Europe for answers, and so things remain. All while the lecturing Scandinavians quickly built fences.

Now is the time for all good men... meh. Pass the sauce. Got me some red meat here.
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Old 15th June 2019, 03:59 PM   #62
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Donald Trump is an egomaniac and a pathological liar just like Franklin Roosevelt was an egomaniac and a pathological liar. Roosevelt lied his way into WW2 and Trump may very well lie his way into WW3.
1. Roosevelt won the 1940 election by campaigning against intervention. This was a gigantic lie and a con job because in private he was doing everything possible to support the Allies.
https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=7486
2. Roosevelt included Stalin's USSR as one of the "democracies". He claimed to be fighting against dictatorship yet never used the words Stalin and dictator in the same sentence.
www.jrbooksonline.com/fdr-scandal-page/fdr.html
3. Roosevelt gave a radio speech in October 1941 mentioning a so called "secret map" which he claimed was a Nazi plan to invade South America. The story was a complete fabrication.
https://codoh.com/library/document/2119/
4. Roosevelt lied to the American public by covering up the Katyn Massacre for Stalin. US intelligence informed him that this mass killing of Polish officers was committed by the Soviet secret police but he ignored this and claimed it was the work of the enemy.
www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/?p=56206
5. Roosevelt agreed at Yalta to hand Poland to Stalin. This was not in keeping with the stated aims of the Atlantic Charter whose ideals Roosevelt was happy to trash.
https://codoh.com/library/document/2095/
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Old 15th June 2019, 04:04 PM   #63
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Cripes, get the hell out of here Nazi-boy.
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