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Tags donald trump , impeachment , Michael Cohen , political speculation , Trump controversies

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Old 18th January 2019, 03:01 PM   #41
The Great Zaganza
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Originally Posted by phunk View Post
Literally?
As has been pointed out, figuratively, they lost their manhood long ago.
Nailing their detached scrotums to the door of the Senate should make this fact clear to everyone.
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Old 18th January 2019, 03:06 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
Cohen's statement about acting with the knowledge and direction of Despot Donald Trump means far far more than just the things Cohen did. it establishes precedent.

Now go back and re-read the reporting from the early days of the Mueller probe on Manafort's emails saying the campaign needed to send someone "low" to the Russians so as to not "send a signal".

Also Papadopolous' statements that Trump was well aware of and encouraged his conspiring with the Russians.

Donald J Trump is guilty of Treason, conspiracy with a foreign power, and subverting the 2016 election. The "election" is therefore invalid.

Hillary Clinton is our rightful President.
If our country was one of the rule of law, you'd be correct. However, it is of the rule of politics, and since the GOP has control, I doubt Trump will suffer any consequence no matter what crimes are proven. He could rape a baby on the senate floor and they wouldn't impeach him.
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Old 18th January 2019, 03:15 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
So, the house votes to impeach.(Impeach means "to investigate") But doesn't the Senate get in on the Guilty! vote?
Yes. Consider the impeachment hearings in the House to be the equivalent of a Grand Jury. They decide whether or not to impeach/indict POTUS and then the Senate conducts a trial whether or not to remove him from his office.

But think of it this way. Those hearings would likely be both public and televised. If significant evidence is presented, the GOP is not going to look good conducting a sham trial and acting partisan.
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Old 18th January 2019, 03:49 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Citizenship was never the putative problem. It was about where certain loonies say he was born.
Actually, in this context it's about how those loonies thought that proving his non-citizenship would automatically invalidate the election and automatically install their nominee in his place.

And thus it's also about how these loonies think that proving Russian collusion will automatically invalidate Trump's election and automatically install Hillary Clinton in his place.

---

And this illustrates one of the classic failure modes of an argument by analogy: Even when the analogy is sound, and the elements being compared between the two are properly analogous, people still get so confused and distracted by the effort of mapping the one thing to the other that they completely miss what a perfectly cromulent point.

Last edited by theprestige; 18th January 2019 at 03:51 PM.
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Old 18th January 2019, 03:54 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Yes. Consider the impeachment hearings in the House to be the equivalent of a Grand Jury. They decide whether or not to impeach/indict POTUS and then the Senate conducts a trial whether or not to remove him from his office.
Nope. The House presents its case to the Senate, and the Senate votes. The Senate does not conduct the trial. The trial is a joint activity of both chambers.

If you insist on trying to do this by analogy, instead of in terms of the thing itself, this is closer to the truth: The House is the prosecutor, deciding whether or not they have a case. And the Senate is like the jury, hearing the case and issuing a verdict. But there's no judge, no defense lawyer, etc. So the analogy to other courtroom procedures breaks down fairly quickly, unless you're prepared to grasp its point and move on.
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Old 18th January 2019, 04:09 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
As has been pointed out, figuratively, they lost their manhood long ago.

Nailing their detached scrotums to the door of the Senate should make this fact clear to everyone.
That feeling when a champion of progress sums up all that is good and true in a politician as "manhood".

At least this forum is starting to get its Psychosexual Revenge Porn mojo back.
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Old 18th January 2019, 04:14 PM   #47
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How else to describe the party of Values that abandoned everything moral to get a terrible person into the White House?
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Old 18th January 2019, 04:24 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Yes, by the letter of the law, Trump wouldn't be guilty of "treason", because that charge specifically refers to actions during war time.
Actually, it requires an "owing allegiance" to the US. Trump, who was nothing more than a citizen at the time, well, it would be hard to stretch citizenship into owing some sort of allegiance. As well as a specific enemy. Russia is not our enemy.

I left off the other stuff as it's likely correct. But as someone who see's the charge of Treason in every SovCit complaint, I grow weary of it.
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Old 18th January 2019, 04:24 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
How else to describe the party of Values that abandoned everything moral to get a terrible person into the White House?
Might I suggest not using gendered language that equates being a good person with being a man?
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Old 18th January 2019, 04:40 PM   #50
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I suspect that Cohen would not have made this claim regarding Trump telling him to lie to Congress if he didn't have texts/emails or something else to back it up. He knows he has a credibility problem. So far, I haven't seen Cohen denying this Buzzfeed claim. On the other hand, the WH is denying it. Which leads me to believe it's true.
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Old 18th January 2019, 04:49 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Might I suggest not using gendered language that equates being a good person with being a man?
You'd make a fantastic SJW, seriously (and I'm fine with most SJWs, tbh.)

lol
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Old 18th January 2019, 04:59 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
You'd make a fantastic SJW, seriously (and I'm fine with most SJWs, tbh.)



lol
You're confusing my knack for code switching with actual support for your ideology.
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Old 18th January 2019, 05:06 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm not sure if that's necessarily true about a presidential candidate. A president-elect, though, quite rightly starts talking to his foreign counterparts before he takes office. I think you'll find that every modern president-elect, from Obama on back, has met with the Russians before taking office.
How many of them lied about the meetings and tried to cover them up?
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Old 18th January 2019, 05:06 PM   #54
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Passing peak Trump?
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Old 18th January 2019, 05:09 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
That feeling when a champion of progress sums up all that is good and true in a politician as "manhood".

At least this forum is starting to get its Psychosexual Revenge Porn mojo back.
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Old 18th January 2019, 05:14 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You're confusing my knack for code switching with actual support for your ideology.
Not mistaking it. That was the "apostrophe D" in "You'd". You WOULD. Not "you ARE".
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Old 18th January 2019, 05:22 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Actually, in this context it's about how those loonies thought that proving his non-citizenship would automatically invalidate the election and automatically install their nominee in his place.

And thus it's also about how these loonies think that proving Russian collusion will automatically invalidate Trump's election and automatically install Hillary Clinton in his place.

---

And this illustrates one of the classic failure modes of an argument by analogy: Even when the analogy is sound, and the elements being compared between the two are properly analogous, people still get so confused and distracted by the effort of mapping the one thing to the other that they completely miss what a perfectly cromulent point.
I'm not sure what analogy you're talking about.

The birther-type people probably wouldn't have wanted McCain in office either, because of his position on immigration. Maybe they would have liked Romney better. I never stopped to wonder what remedy birthers sought. I must have figured that harassing Obama was an end in itself.
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Old 18th January 2019, 05:23 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
Passing peak Trump?
If God is merciful.
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Old 18th January 2019, 08:03 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Is there a way Pelosi could actually become president out of this?

I do recognize that Trump is almost certainly guilty (as sure as you can be), and under normal circumstances would be impeached and removed from office. I also recognize (with almost as much certainty) that Pence is also guilty of various crimes.

But, would the 2 of them be removed simultaneously? Or would Trump get impeached, Pence becomes president, then he appoints his own VP right before he himself gets impeached (and that VP becomes the new president).

It's unlikely, no matter how bad Pence is, the Republicans in the Senate would allow a near-simultaneous removal.
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Old 18th January 2019, 10:50 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
If God is merciful.
Empirical evidence suggests otherwise.
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Old 18th January 2019, 10:54 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Beerina View Post
It's unlikely, no matter how bad Pence is, the Republicans in the Senate would allow a near-simultaneous removal.
That's not necessary. It's only necessary that Congress not approve Pence's nominee for VP before removing Pence.

And none of this is on the verge of actually happening yet, I'm afraid. We're talking a double impeachment and removal or resignation here? That's not in the cards right now. Senate is GOP. They haven't flipped yet. There has to be a serious break in the GOP before any of this can be a possibility. Might happen, but hasn't happened yet.
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Old 18th January 2019, 11:18 PM   #62
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Hey what’s going on in this thread?

Mueller says that the Cohen story is ********.

Ohhhh, that is going to leave a mark.

Elmer Fudd voice: ladies and gentlemen, we got him!
Pulls up fake bugs bunny made out of TNT...

Narrator: they did not have him.

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Old 18th January 2019, 11:24 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Hey what’s going on in this thread?

Mueller says that the Cohen story is ********.

Ohhhh, that is going to leave a mark.
You are totally right. Trump is as innocent as a new born babe. Trump has never broken any laws and soon he will be completely exonerated by the SCO.

The fake news Media will apologise, the wall will go up, Mexico will pay, America will once again be great and the rest of the world will start to give Donald the respect and great praise that he deserves...

Or, maybe not...
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Old 18th January 2019, 11:24 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
Some Republicans claiming that President Obama wasn't really a citizen thought that the 2008 election would be reversed and McCain would become President. That's not how it works.
Unfortunately.

But in the Obama case, he was the legitimate POTUS.

In Trump's case, maybe not so much.
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Old 18th January 2019, 11:32 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Brainache View Post
You are totally right. Trump is as innocent as a new born babe. Trump has never broken any laws and soon he will be completely exonerated by the SCO.

The fake news Media will apologise, the wall will go up, Mexico will pay, America will once again be great and the rest of the world will start to give Donald the respect and great praise that he deserves...

Or, maybe not...
Mmmmmm, silky loin of strawman....

I was told that we have him! We have him! Sure mueller just pissed on that damp fire, but we totes have him!

We got him right where we want him!

Strawman me again!
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Old 18th January 2019, 11:32 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Is there a way Pelosi could actually become president out of this?...
No, everyone on both sides will cover up anything implicating Pence.
The Democrats, because they know there is no way the Senate will do something that would allow a Democrat (or a woman apparently) to become POTUS. So without Pence, no impeachment.

The GOP Senators for obvious reasons.
However, all of this is going to trash the GOP in 2020. Trump will never win re-election, I don't care what the naysayers say. And maybe if the Mueller report is that bad, which I think the evidence is leaning toward it will be, the Democrats can take the Senate back, keep the House and win the POTUS in 2020.
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Old 18th January 2019, 11:38 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
No, everyone on both sides will cover up anything implicating Pence.
The Democrats, because they know there is no way the Senate will do something that would allow a Democrat (or a woman apparently) to become POTUS. So without Pence, no impeachment.

The GOP Senators for obvious reasons.
However, all of this is going to trash the GOP in 2020. Trump will never win re-election, I don't care what the naysayers say. And maybe if the Mueller report is that bad, which I think the evidence is leaning toward it will be, the Democrats can take the Senate back, keep the House and win the POTUS in 2020.
Hmmm, you think that Mueller being forced to release a statement tonight contradicting the buzzfeed report is going to trash them?

I am skeptical. Walk us through that...
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Old 18th January 2019, 11:40 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
Sorry, but that is not right ...

If Trump is tossed, then Pence will become the president.

And if Pence is tossed, then Pelosi will become the president.

The order of succession is spelled out in the US Constitution.
Yeah but theoretically the election should be nullified.

We all know that will never happen.

And there is nothing in the Constitution to deal with this kind of fraud.
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Old 18th January 2019, 11:41 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Naah!

If it is uncovered that Trump used illegal means to become President, a Time Vortex will open up and transport us all back to November 2016.

Oh, yes, the science totally checks out.
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Old 18th January 2019, 11:47 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
Wouldn't it be cool if Pelosi as President abdicates to Hillary Clinton, and she finally takes her rightful place in the Oval Office? I'd feel like we're back in the right universe, not the "Mirror, Mirror" one.

(eta)
Even better, Pelosi picks Hillary as VP, Pelosi resigns, and Hillary takes the throne.
Much as I love that fantasy, it would only lead to the Democrats getting totally screwed in 2020 because that alt-white backlash would be on fire.

So what do we choose? The end of Trump's term filled by Pelosi who can start to repair the damage? Or replace the lot of them in 2020?

I fear we're stuck with Pence.
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Old 18th January 2019, 11:47 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Hey what’s going on in this thread?

Mueller says that the Cohen story is ********.

Ohhhh, that is going to leave a mark.

Elmer Fudd voice: ladies and gentlemen, we got him!
Pulls up fake bugs bunny made out of TNT...

Narrator: they did not have him.
You haven't trusted Mueller before. Why start now?
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Old 18th January 2019, 11:59 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
You haven't trusted Mueller before. Why start now?
So, you are saying DO NOT TRUST MUELLER?

Huh, ok. Won’t trust Mueller.

Well argued folks! So that makes buzzfeed’s unsupported article bull ****, and we should not trust mueller.

Great arguments!
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Old 19th January 2019, 12:02 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
So, you are saying DO NOT TRUST MUELLER?

Huh, ok. Won’t trust Mueller.

Well argued folks! So that makes buzzfeed’s unsupported article bull ****, and we should not trust mueller.

Great arguments!
I guess you don't know how questions work. I asked you why did you stop doubting them today. I have no opinion on him or the BuzzFeed article.
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Old 19th January 2019, 12:10 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I guess you don't know how questions work. I asked you why did you stop doubting them today. I have no opinion on him or the BuzzFeed article.
Let me amaze you: I know “how questions” work. Perhaps one will wish to review the “question”? Because loaded question AND false dichotomy AND by asking the question in the fashion you have done you have indeed already answered it.

I already answered: the whole situation is a next level nightmare for the resistance and the one option is to flee like the boat is on fire.

Any more questions?
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Old 19th January 2019, 12:23 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Let me amaze you: I know “how questions” work. Perhaps one will wish to review the “question”? Because loaded question AND false dichotomy AND by asking the question in the fashion you have done you have indeed already answered it.

I already answered: the whole situation is a next level nightmare for the resistance and the one option is to flee like the boat is on fire.

Any more questions?
I have a question: What happens when you discover that what Mueller said was not actually a negation of the Buzzfeed story?

What will you say when you finally realise that "some aspects are inaccurate" is not the same as "it's all wrong"?

Just how long until the wheels fall off your little orange trump wagon?
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Old 19th January 2019, 05:16 AM   #76
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Quote:
"Ladies and Gentlemen, We Got Him!"
No, you have a story. You don't "got him" until he's actually forced out of office.

Have you ever even considered reading what the Constitution has to say about impeachment, elections, and treason? Perhaps you should before speaking so confidently about those topics. Once you've done that, maybe crack open Title 18 of the US Code (that's the criminal title of law in the US) and read what the elements of conspiracy are.

While I agree that Trump did break the law to become president, he was still elected by the Electoral College and the results were certified by Congress. He is the president.
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Old 19th January 2019, 06:42 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Let me amaze you: I know “how questions” work. Perhaps one will wish to review the “question”? Because loaded question AND false dichotomy AND by asking the question in the fashion you have done you have indeed already answered it.

I already answered: the whole situation is a next level nightmare for the resistance and the one option is to flee like the boat is on fire.

Any more questions?
I assure you, it was a question I actually want an answer to.
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Old 19th January 2019, 07:14 AM   #78
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Quick question

Is anyone arguing for an alternative source of the leaks that isn't the NY State attorney office?
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Old 19th January 2019, 07:58 AM   #79
varwoche
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Hey what’s going on in this thread?

Mueller says that the Cohen story is ********.

Ohhhh, that is going to leave a mark.

Elmer Fudd voice: ladies and gentlemen, we got him!
Pulls up fake bugs bunny made out of TNT...

Narrator: they did not have him.
Enjoy the milk while it lasts. Meanwhile, contemplate the many damning stories that Mueller has not refuted.

We should all be wary of dubious sources such as Buzzfeed, relying instead on the pros such as NTY and Wapo.
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Old 19th January 2019, 08:25 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I assure you, it was a question I actually want an answer to.
As one who shares your intrest in epistomology, I'd like to see the answer too.
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