ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags donald trump , Mueller investigation , Robert Mueller , Trump controversies , Trump-Russia connections , William Barr

Closed Thread
Old 30th April 2019, 02:34 PM   #401
phiwum
Penultimate Amazing
 
phiwum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 11,745
Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
How I long for more substantive and thoughtful arguments from conservatives.
ThePrestige does as well as any of those who support Trump on this forum. (I hope he agrees with the claim that he supports Trump. Regardless of who he wanted elected, and I don't know his opinion, he definitely defends Trump more than he criticizes him.)

That said, I don't find ThePrestige's arguments convincing very often.
phiwum is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 30th April 2019, 02:40 PM   #402
kookbreaker
Evil Fokker
 
kookbreaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 12,212
Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
Awwww. Lol.
Beep. Boop.
__________________
www.spectrum-scientifics.com <- My store of science toys, instruments and general fun!

Thanks for helping me win Best Toys in Philly Voter in 2011,2012, and 2014! We won' be discussing the disappointment that was 2013.
kookbreaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 30th April 2019, 02:48 PM   #403
Dr. Keith
Not a doctor.
 
Dr. Keith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 18,929
Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
ThePrestige does as well as any of those who support Trump on this forum. (I hope he agrees with the claim that he supports Trump. Regardless of who he wanted elected, and I don't know his opinion, he definitely defends Trump more than he criticizes him.)

That said, I don't find ThePrestige's arguments convincing very often.
I think theprestige could make very solid arguments that the earth is flat. They would not be convincing, but they would be far better that the average flat earther.

In other words, I don't think he is pro-Trump so much as he was anti-Hillary and thinks that Trump isn't as bad as most liberals think he is. You work with what you got when you find yourself in that sort of situation.
__________________
Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God.
He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa

If I had a pet panda I would name it Snowflake.
Dr. Keith is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 30th April 2019, 03:17 PM   #404
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 37,234
Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
ThePrestige does as well as any of those who support Trump on this forum. (I hope he agrees with the claim that he supports Trump. Regardless of who he wanted elected, and I don't know his opinion, he definitely defends Trump more than he criticizes him.)



That said, I don't find ThePrestige's arguments convincing very often.
I do "support Trump", but on my own terms, which may not be familiar to some.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 30th April 2019, 03:24 PM   #405
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 37,234
Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I think theprestige could make very solid arguments that the earth is flat. They would not be convincing, but they would be far better that the average flat earther.

In other words, I don't think he is pro-Trump so much as he was anti-Hillary and thinks that Trump isn't as bad as most liberals think he is. You work with what you got when you find yourself in that sort of situation.
I was anti the GOP establishment before I was anti Hillary. Giving them the finger was a once in a lifetime opportunity. But if I thought for a moment that our institutions could not handle Donald Trump, I would never have voted for him. I consider the past two+ years a clear vindication of my assessment. 5/7 perfect score, would vote again.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 30th April 2019, 03:59 PM   #406
phiwum
Penultimate Amazing
 
phiwum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 11,745
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I do "support Trump", but on my own terms, which may not be familiar to some.
Okay. I didn't want to mischaracterize your position and I guess I didn't, even if I don't know the details.
phiwum is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 30th April 2019, 04:43 PM   #407
Cabbage
Graduate Poster
 
Cabbage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 1,575
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I was anti the GOP establishment before I was anti Hillary. Giving them the finger was a once in a lifetime opportunity. But if I thought for a moment that our institutions could not handle Donald Trump, I would never have voted for him. I consider the past two+ years a clear vindication of my assessment. 5/7 perfect score, would vote again.


Two+ years is a woefully short time period to analyze the full effect of a four year presidential term.
Cabbage is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 30th April 2019, 05:03 PM   #408
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 37,234
Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Okay. I didn't want to mischaracterize your position and I guess I didn't, even if I don't know the details.
Your characterization was solid, and I respect you for it, even if we don't see eye to eye on practically anything else.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 30th April 2019, 05:47 PM   #409
Craig4
Penultimate Amazing
 
Craig4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Alexandria, VA Home to the Deep State.
Posts: 18,626
Watching the news tonight, I wonder why everyone is so surprised. We know Trump supporters aren't patriots and don't love their country. We know Trump supporters have weak characters. We know Trump supporters lack integrity. I don't understand why the news tonight is surprised that Barr, a Trump supporter showed the world that he's not a patriot, he doesn't love his country, he has a weak character and no integrity. Let's not clutch the pearls here. We always knew his faults because no one with character, patriotism or integrity would work for the Trump administration. If you support the administration, we already know you're a traitor.
Craig4 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 30th April 2019, 05:50 PM   #410
TellyKNeasuss
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,069
According to the Liberal Fake News Mainstream Media Washington Post, Mueller wrote a letter to Barr complaining about Barr's misrepresentation of the contents of the Mueller Report:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...=.897101bf0b27
__________________
"Facts are stupid things."
Ronald Reagan


TellyKNeasuss is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 30th April 2019, 06:17 PM   #411
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 12,391
Originally Posted by TellyKNeasuss View Post
According to the Liberal Fake News Mainstream Media Washington Post, Mueller wrote a letter to Barr complaining about Barr's misrepresentation of the contents of the Mueller Report:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...=.897101bf0b27

The Liberal Fake News Mainstream Media New York Times is carrying the same story

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/30/u...ller-barr.html

"WASHINGTON — Robert S. Mueller III, the special counsel, wrote a letter in late March to Attorney General William P. Barr objecting to his early description of the Russia investigation’s conclusions that appeared to clear President Trump on possible obstruction of justice, according to the Justice Department and three people with direct knowledge of the communication between the two men.

The letter adds to the growing evidence of a rift between them and is another sign of the anger among the special counsel’s investigators about Mr. Barr’s characterization of their findings, which allowed Mr. Trump to wrongly claim he had been vindicated."



So much for all those Trump sycophants here who claim that Barr should be believed and taken at his word.

Barr appears to be rapidly dragging himself down the same hole that Trump has being digging for himself... what a horrible historical legacy to choose for yourself... being Trump's voluntary fall guy...
__________________
“Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore - if they're white!"
If you don't like my posts, my opinions, or my directness then put me on your ignore list.
This will be of benefit to both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste my time talking to you... simples! !

Last edited by smartcooky; 30th April 2019 at 06:18 PM.
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 30th April 2019, 06:28 PM   #412
thaiboxerken
Penultimate Amazing
 
thaiboxerken's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 30,168
Pfft. As if Mueller has any idea what was in the report...... FAKE NEWS! NO COLLUSION!!
__________________
All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power & profit - Thomas Paine
thaiboxerken is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 30th April 2019, 06:39 PM   #413
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 43,965
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
So much for all those Trump sycophants here who claim that Barr should be believed and taken at his word.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...=.5dcff8e2a66b

"A day after Mueller sent his letter to Barr, the two men spoke by phone for about 15 minutes, according to law enforcement officials.
...
When Barr pressed Mueller on whether he thought Barr’s memo to Congress was inaccurate, Mueller said he did not but felt that the media coverage of it was misinterpreting the investigation, officials said."

So much for all those Trump conspiracy theorists here who claim that Barr is lying to cover up Trump's crimes.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 30th April 2019, 06:41 PM   #414
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 12,391
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I was anti the GOP establishment before I was anti Hillary. Giving them the finger was a once in a lifetime opportunity. But if I thought for a moment that our institutions could not handle Donald Trump, I would never have voted for him. I consider the past two+ years a clear vindication of my assessment. 5/7 perfect score, would vote again.

So if I understand your position correctly, you're perfectly happy that your President...

- enables right wing hate groups
- divides the country along race lines
- promotes the separation of children from their families
- supports keeping those children in cages
- has lied to the American public over 10,000 times in this two years
- promotes the use of fossil fuels
- has used emergency powers to build a vanity monument
- is a verifiable criminal and fraudster
- is a confirmed misogynist and fine with assaulting women
- has alienated your traditional allies while rolling over for the dictator of a hostile foreign power
- has made your country a laughing stock to the rest of the world
__________________
“Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore - if they're white!"
If you don't like my posts, my opinions, or my directness then put me on your ignore list.
This will be of benefit to both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste my time talking to you... simples! !
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 30th April 2019, 06:48 PM   #415
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 12,391
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...=.5dcff8e2a66b

"A day after Mueller sent his letter to Barr, the two men spoke by phone for about 15 minutes, according to law enforcement officials.
...
When Barr pressed Mueller on whether he thought Barr’s memo to Congress was inaccurate, Mueller said he did not but felt that the media coverage of it was misinterpreting the investigation, officials said."
These "officials" will, of course, be under Barr's direct control. They will have said what they have been told to say.
__________________
“Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore - if they're white!"
If you don't like my posts, my opinions, or my directness then put me on your ignore list.
This will be of benefit to both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste my time talking to you... simples! !
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 30th April 2019, 06:56 PM   #416
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 21,872
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
These "officials" will, of course, be under Barr's direct control. They will have said what they have been told to say.
Not necessarily. The assumption that anyone and everyone who works for Barr will lie to Congress seems a stretch. Especially if they are career DOJ.
__________________
Try
Science, not superstition.
Reason, not revelation.
Education, not epiphanies
Intellect, not ignorance.
.
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 30th April 2019, 06:58 PM   #417
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 43,965
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
These "officials" will, of course, be under Barr's direct control. They will have said what they have been told to say.
The conspiracy expands. Diabolical!
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 30th April 2019, 07:18 PM   #418
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 12,391
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The conspiracy expands. Diabolical!
Not a conspiracy, just facts, in plain sight, visible to anyone who takes the time to look.

I have read what Barr said

I have read the Mueller report

I clearly see that Barr has completely misrepresented and mischaracterised what Mueller has said in the report. You have to be Blind Freddy or wilfully, and deliberately stupid (or a Trump sycophant - which amounts to the same thing) not to see this.
__________________
“Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore - if they're white!"
If you don't like my posts, my opinions, or my directness then put me on your ignore list.
This will be of benefit to both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste my time talking to you... simples! !
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 30th April 2019, 07:22 PM   #419
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 12,391
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Not necessarily. The assumption that anyone and everyone who works for Barr will lie to Congress seems a stretch. Especially if they are career DOJ.
Zig wasn't talking about what they said to Congress, he was talking about what some anonymous "law enforcement officials" allegedly told a newspaper. I have no doubt they have been told what to say.

It will also be why Barr doesn't want to testify to Congress, he will be caught in the lies he has told.
__________________
“Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore - if they're white!"
If you don't like my posts, my opinions, or my directness then put me on your ignore list.
This will be of benefit to both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste my time talking to you... simples! !
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 30th April 2019, 07:27 PM   #420
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 43,965
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Not a conspiracy, just facts, in plain sight, visible to anyone who takes the time to look.
You're alleging that Barr told them, in secret, to lie about his conversation with Mueller. Yeah, that's a conspiracy theory all right.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 30th April 2019, 08:04 PM   #421
dasmiller
Just the right amount of cowbell
 
dasmiller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Well past Hither, looking for Yon
Posts: 6,205
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You're alleging that Barr told them, in secret, to lie about his conversation with Mueller. Yeah, that's a conspiracy theory all right.
Well, according to Mueller's letter, Barr's summary "did not fully capture the context, nature and substance of this office's work and conclusions."

According to the DOJ spokesperson, who is presumably taking Barr's word for the nature of the phone call, Mueller didn't think the summary was inaccurate.

Either Mueller changed his mind or the DOJ spokesperson is not accurately representing Mueller's views, because I don't believe that a summary can simultaneously be accurate while misrepresenting the report's conclusions.
__________________
"In times of war, we need warriors. But this isn't a war." - Phil Plaitt
dasmiller is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 30th April 2019, 08:05 PM   #422
dasmiller
Just the right amount of cowbell
 
dasmiller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Well past Hither, looking for Yon
Posts: 6,205
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You're alleging that Barr told them, in secret, to lie about his conversation with Mueller. Yeah, that's a conspiracy theory all right.
Not necessarily. Barr could have simply misrepresented the call to his staff.
__________________
"In times of war, we need warriors. But this isn't a war." - Phil Plaitt
dasmiller is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 30th April 2019, 08:19 PM   #423
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 43,965
Originally Posted by dasmiller View Post
Well, according to Mueller's letter, Barr's summary "did not fully capture the context, nature and substance of this office's work and conclusions."

According to the DOJ spokesperson, who is presumably taking Barr's word for the nature of the phone call, Mueller didn't think the summary was inaccurate.

Either Mueller changed his mind or the DOJ spokesperson is not accurately representing Mueller's views, because I don't believe that a summary can simultaneously be accurate while misrepresenting the report's conclusions.
That's actually trivially easy to reconcile: it can be accurate but not complete.

Alternatively, since these statements came at different times, Mueller's view of Barr's letter to Congress may have softened after talking to Barr about it directly.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 30th April 2019, 08:52 PM   #424
Bogative
Graduate Poster
 
Bogative's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 1,221
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
"When Barr pressed Mueller on whether he thought Barr’s memo to Congress was inaccurate, Mueller said he did not but felt that the media coverage of it was misinterpreting the investigation, officials said."

Bogative is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 30th April 2019, 08:58 PM   #425
dasmiller
Just the right amount of cowbell
 
dasmiller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Well past Hither, looking for Yon
Posts: 6,205
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That's actually trivially easy to reconcile: it can be accurate but not complete.
A summary can be accurate while missing the "nature and substance" of the conclusions?

Quote:
Alternatively, since these statements came at different times, Mueller's view of Barr's letter to Congress may have softened after talking to Barr about it directly.
I said as much.
__________________
"In times of war, we need warriors. But this isn't a war." - Phil Plaitt
dasmiller is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 30th April 2019, 09:09 PM   #426
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 75,558
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...=.5dcff8e2a66b

"A day after Mueller sent his letter to Barr, the two men spoke by phone for about 15 minutes, according to law enforcement officials.
...
When Barr pressed Mueller on whether he thought Barr’s memo to Congress was inaccurate, Mueller said he did not but felt that the media coverage of it was misinterpreting the investigation, officials said."

So much for all those Trump conspiracy theorists here who claim that Barr is lying to cover up Trump's crimes.
I take it the concept of people not calling each other out professionally eludes you?

Not to mention here again we don't have Mueller's letter or a transcript of the call, we have someone else's summary.

Finally, we know what Barr said, the report did not exonerate Trump. We also know the clever narrative that made that fact disappear into the woodwork as Trump repeated over and over, no collusion, no obstruction.
__________________
That new avatar is cuteness overload.
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 30th April 2019, 09:11 PM   #427
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 75,558
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
So if I understand your position correctly, you're perfectly happy that your President...

- enables right wing hate groups
- divides the country along race lines
- promotes the separation of children from their families
- supports keeping those children in cages
- has lied to the American public over 10,000 times in this two years
- promotes the use of fossil fuels
- has used emergency powers to build a vanity monument
- is a verifiable criminal and fraudster
- is a confirmed misogynist and fine with assaulting women
- has alienated your traditional allies while rolling over for the dictator of a hostile foreign power
- has made your country a laughing stock to the rest of the world
Pretty good summary there.
__________________
That new avatar is cuteness overload.
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 30th April 2019, 09:17 PM   #428
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 43,965
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I take it the concept of people not calling each other out professionally eludes you?
Do you think Mueller would refrain from calling out Barr if Barr completely misrepresented the report?

Quote:
Not to mention here again we don't have Mueller's letter or a transcript of the call, we have someone else's summary.
Just like every single FBI case where a subject supposedly lied to investigators: we only have someone else's summary of what they said.

Quote:
Finally, we know what Barr said, the report did not exonerate Trump.
It exonerated him on any criminal conspiracy with Russia. And since Mueller refused to come to a judgment about Trump on obstruction, Barr was left to make that call. So he did.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 30th April 2019, 09:27 PM   #429
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 43,965
Originally Posted by dasmiller View Post
A summary can be accurate while missing the "nature and substance" of the conclusions?
He didn't say it was missing the "nature and substance" of the conclusions. He said it "did not fully capture the context, nature and substance of this office's work and conclusions." That can include mostly capturing the "context, nature and substance". Again, accurate doesn't mean complete.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 30th April 2019, 09:33 PM   #430
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 75,558
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Do you think Mueller would refrain from calling out Barr if Barr completely misrepresented the report?
Yes, but define "calling out". The letter called Barr out as far as professionals typically do. I work in a profession where people are extremely cautious in how they call another professional out.


Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
It exonerated him on any criminal conspiracy with Russia. And since Mueller refused to come to a judgment about Trump on obstruction, Barr was left to make that call. So he did.
That's not what the report says at all. So right here you buy the Barr/Trump narrative, like other Trump supporters do. Barr did the job Trump hired him to do.
__________________
That new avatar is cuteness overload.
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 30th April 2019, 09:35 PM   #431
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 75,558
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
He didn't say it was missing the "nature and substance" of the conclusions. He said it "did not fully capture the context, nature and substance of this office's work and conclusions." That can include mostly capturing the "context, nature and substance". Again, accurate doesn't mean complete.
Why is it you think Mueller wrote a letter to Barr?
__________________
That new avatar is cuteness overload.
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 30th April 2019, 09:41 PM   #432
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 12,391
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
That's not what the report says at all. So right here you buy the Barr/Trump narrative, like other Trump supporters do. Barr did the job Trump hired him to do.
Its sure isn't

I think, perhaps, that Zig hasn't read the report.
__________________
“Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore - if they're white!"
If you don't like my posts, my opinions, or my directness then put me on your ignore list.
This will be of benefit to both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste my time talking to you... simples! !

Last edited by smartcooky; 30th April 2019 at 09:43 PM.
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 30th April 2019, 10:33 PM   #433
carlosy
Thinker
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 159
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
So if I understand your position correctly, you're perfectly happy that your President...

- enables right wing hate groups
- divides the country along race lines
- promotes the separation of children from their families
- supports keeping those children in cages
- has lied to the American public over 10,000 times in this two years
- promotes the use of fossil fuels
- has used emergency powers to build a vanity monument
- is a verifiable criminal and fraudster
- is a confirmed misogynist and fine with assaulting women
- has alienated your traditional allies while rolling over for the dictator of a hostile foreign power
- has made your country a laughing stock to the rest of the world
Whatever it takes to drive the followers of the other tribe (angry Democrat mob) into insanity.
carlosy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 30th April 2019, 10:33 PM   #434
Cabbage
Graduate Poster
 
Cabbage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 1,575
First you said:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...=.5dcff8e2a66b

"A day after Mueller sent his letter to Barr, the two men spoke by phone for about 15 minutes, according to law enforcement officials.
...
When Barr pressed Mueller on whether he thought Barr’s memo to Congress was inaccurate, Mueller said he did not but felt that the media coverage of it was misinterpreting the investigation, officials said."

So much for all those Trump conspiracy theorists here who claim that Barr is lying to cover up Trump's crimes.
....followed up by:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That's actually trivially easy to reconcile: it can be accurate but not complete.

Alternatively, since these statements came at different times, Mueller's view of Barr's letter to Congress may have softened after talking to Barr about it directly.
When the lack of completeness refers to significant evidence of obstruction of justice missing from the summary, that absolutely IS a lie of omission.

Last edited by Cabbage; 30th April 2019 at 10:37 PM.
Cabbage is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 30th April 2019, 10:49 PM   #435
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 9,082
Originally Posted by carlosy View Post
Whatever it takes to drive the followers of the other tribe (angry Democrat mob) into insanity.
even at the cost of the country?
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 30th April 2019, 10:57 PM   #436
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 9,082
No wonder Barr doesn't want to go back to the Judicial Committee: he either has to lie then, or admit that he lied last time he was there.
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 30th April 2019, 11:02 PM   #437
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 12,391
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
even at the cost of the country?
Yes, because GOP is the party of "party before country"

They would quite happily see the USA slide into a Trump dictatorship, so long as THEY were the party of that dictatorship.
__________________
“Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore - if they're white!"
If you don't like my posts, my opinions, or my directness then put me on your ignore list.
This will be of benefit to both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste my time talking to you... simples! !
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 30th April 2019, 11:22 PM   #438
Foolmewunz
Grammar Resistance Leader
TLA Dictator
 
Foolmewunz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Pattaya, Thailand
Posts: 41,268
The Mueller letter is getting spot coverage in the right wing media. Poor old Breitbart has no money to do actual reporting, though, and in the "Boss In Trouble. Must React." mode, they ran with "Mueller says Barr report didn't pick up nuances, but doesn't say it was wrong." They've revised their lead and headline four times over six hours.

Fox hasn't covered it nationally. The Hill, NY Mag Intelligencer, CNN, The Beeb, NYT, WaPo, etc... have.

I have to appreciate the paleo parrots having to step out on their own with only Breitbart to fall back on for direction to tilt the spinarama.
__________________
Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele

It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable.
Foolmewunz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 30th April 2019, 11:35 PM   #439
Lurch
Muse
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 905
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Do you think Mueller would refrain from calling out Barr if Barr completely misrepresented the report?



Just like every single FBI case where a subject supposedly lied to investigators: we only have someone else's summary of what they said.



It exonerated him on any criminal conspiracy with Russia. And since Mueller refused to come to a judgment about Trump on obstruction, Barr was left to make that call. So he did.
Barr was most emphatically NOT left to make that call.

CONGRESS was.

Barr was upset that Mueller's work was decidedly a punt not to be myself as AG, but instead to Congress.

Which was why Barr sat on the report for three weeks after putting out into the ecosphere his own spin. Whereupon Mueller almost immediately thereafter memorialized, for all time, his displeasure to Barr in a letter. A letter which normally is not created except in extremis due to the historical impact.

The Special Counsel regulations were specifically crafted to ensure that a fair and unbiased investigation could be undertaken by taking out of the loop any political interference, including by the top legal officer in the land, and that any nefarious meddling by an AG would be brought to light.

We are seeing in real time the wisdom of Neal Katyal's 1999 strategy when drafting the SC regs.

And Barr has now utterly sullied what good reputation he once possessed, cementing his position in the history books as yet another Trump enabler to go down in willing ignominy. As a certain book has it, everything Trump touches dies. What a chapter is being written for the history of the US. Watergate, more over.
Lurch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 30th April 2019, 11:40 PM   #440
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 12,391
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
No wonder Barr doesn't want to go back to the Judicial Committee: he either has to lie then, or admit that he lied last time he was there.
Well there is no "admit that he lied" about it. Barr did lie under oath!

On April 10, in front of the Senate, Barr was asked "Did Bob Mueller support your conclusion" . He answered "I don't know whether Bob Mueller supported my conclusion"

However, he saw Bob Mueller's letter on March 27, so he knew exactly what Mueller thought, two weeks before he testified...... Barr lied to Congress... under oath.
__________________
“Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore - if they're white!"
If you don't like my posts, my opinions, or my directness then put me on your ignore list.
This will be of benefit to both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste my time talking to you... simples! !

Last edited by smartcooky; 30th April 2019 at 11:41 PM.
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Closed Thread

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:14 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.