ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags donald trump , Trump supporters

Reply
Old 29th July 2019, 08:14 PM   #1
Foolmewunz
Grammar Resistance Leader
TLA Dictator
 
Foolmewunz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Pattaya, Thailand
Posts: 41,262
Calling Trumpistas "Stupid" May Be a Kindness They No Longer Merit

Now that the other shoe has dropped and the GOP and its anointed leader have gone full bore racist in a throwback to the Anti-Immigration Era, it's time to come to the reality that is 21st Century US Politics.

Up 'til a couple of weeks ago, the kindest interpretation one could give to Trump supporters was "They're probably decent folks down deep, they've just fallen for the long-game con and are too stupid to realize it". With every passing miscreant deed, it became harder and harder to keep excusing Trumpistas. We really wound up with the charitable explanation, "Well, they're just really stupid!"

And it was charitable. Charitable because the alternative, which is becoming too apparent, is that they are evil. So, if you're one of the deplorable minority of actual supporters of Donald J. Trump, there's good news and bad news... The good news is that you're no longer considered stupid. For many of you that may be a lifetime first. The bad news is that you're an out-and-out bigot.

The Trump campaign, the RNC, and any GOP candidate who doesn't stand up and condemn the latest round of bellicose racism from the White House are bigots. Dems who continue to pander to "good people on both sides" rhetoric are in the same group.

The GOP has done away with the camouflage. They sit around and discuss whether Trump's latest bigot-speak was good or bad for the campaign. You see and hear the comments of the Apologia. "Well, he's working to his base because motivating them is important." No!!! Bigotry = Bad. Dividing the country along racial lines = Bad. If you can't see this, you are one of the remaining stupid ones. But you can see it. And if you approve of it, you're evil. Old-fashioned Brothers Grimm wicked witch evil. Not some post-modernist angst-y misunderstood good-intentioned person gone astray. Just plain damned evil.
__________________
Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele

It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable.
Foolmewunz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th July 2019, 08:24 PM   #2
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 17,478
What do you think about taking a moral relativist stance on the issue? If we act as observers, can we say they are bad?
BobTheCoward is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th July 2019, 08:25 PM   #3
shemp
a flimsy character...perfidious and despised
 
shemp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: People's Democratic Republic of Planet X
Posts: 31,421
They are both stupid and evil.
__________________
"Shemp, you are the one fixed point in an ever-changing universe." - Beady
"I don't want to live in a world without shemp." - Quarky
"Real name? Xavier Jorge Gladdius Horatio McShrimp. No wonder he goes by shemp." - wasapi
"...just as a magnet attracts iron filings, Trump shemp attracts, and is attracted to, louts." - George Will
shemp is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th July 2019, 08:31 PM   #4
Pterodactyl
Graduate Poster
 
Pterodactyl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,168
I’m thinking that coming up with worse things to label your political opponents isn’t a particularly effective way of reasoning with them or winning back some of their votes in future elections.

Stupid, deplorable, racist, now “evil”. Ok, I bet this is the insult that will finally do them in. Thank god for this post.
Pterodactyl is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th July 2019, 08:32 PM   #5
Foolmewunz
Grammar Resistance Leader
TLA Dictator
 
Foolmewunz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Pattaya, Thailand
Posts: 41,262
Originally Posted by shemp View Post
They are both stupid and evil.
Well, I never said that they were mutually exclusive categories. The point I'm taking is that "just stupid" no longer explains them. But, yeah... they could be just evil or they could be evil and stupid, but I'm eliminating "just stupid" as an option.
__________________
Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele

It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable.
Foolmewunz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th July 2019, 08:34 PM   #6
Foolmewunz
Grammar Resistance Leader
TLA Dictator
 
Foolmewunz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Pattaya, Thailand
Posts: 41,262
Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
Iím thinking that coming up with worse things to label your political opponents isnít a particularly effective way of reasoning with them or winning back some of their votes in future elections.

Stupid, deplorable, racist, now ďevilĒ. Ok, I bet this is the insult that will finally do them in. Thank god for this post.
I don't want to reason with them. I want them to lose and die off. No more of this "oh, you can't call them what they are, 'cuz it upsets them". When you can come up with a warm and fuzzy thing to call bigots, tell me.
__________________
Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele

It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable.
Foolmewunz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th July 2019, 08:41 PM   #7
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 9,060
We all have some racial biases, some more than others.
And it takes effort not to be influenced by them day to day.
Trump's open racism lifts the burden to have to always watch what you say, and that relief can cause people to be (temporarily) more racist than they really like to be.
It's a bit like having to be sober for years and then being given permission to go and have a drink.
I think and hope that the current case of implicit support from Trump's racism won't last until 2020 - Racists don't like to be called Racists, but most don't really like being Racist, either.
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th July 2019, 08:49 PM   #8
Pterodactyl
Graduate Poster
 
Pterodactyl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,168
Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
I don't want to reason with them. I want them to lose and die off. No more of this "oh, you can't call them what they are, 'cuz it upsets them". When you can come up with a warm and fuzzy thing to call bigots, tell me.
I think we just need to accept that weíre all imperfect and that none of us truly knows what motivates or goes on inside the heads of people who arenít us. And also that people both learn and change. And that you donít spread ideas to people by alienating them.
Pterodactyl is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th July 2019, 09:27 PM   #9
tanabear
Critical Thinker
 
tanabear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: The Lion's Den
Posts: 360
Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
The GOP has done away with the camouflage. They sit around and discuss whether Trump's latest bigot-speak was good or bad for the campaign. You see and hear the comments of the Apologia. "Well, he's working to his base because motivating them is important." No!!! Bigotry = Bad. Dividing the country along racial lines = Bad. If you can't see this, you are one of the remaining stupid ones. But you can see it. And if you approve of it, you're evil. Old-fashioned Brothers Grimm wicked witch evil. Not some post-modernist angst-y misunderstood good-intentioned person gone astray. Just plain damned evil.
Democratic run Baltimore is an absolute hell-hole. It is a cauldron of violence and decay. It is a one party city. There are no big bad wolf Republicans elected to any high office in the city and there haven't been for a number of years. So what is preventing your little socialist Utopian fairy-tale from coming to life in Baltimore?

But let me sum up the intellectual arguments on the Left; DAS RACISS...DAS RACISS....DAS RACISS...!!!
__________________
pomeroo: "Mark, where did this guy get the idea that you talked about holding aluminum in your hand?"

Undesired Walrus: "Why, Ron, Mark mentioned this on your very own show!"
tanabear is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th July 2019, 09:29 PM   #10
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 9,060
Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
Democratic run Baltimore is an absolute hell-hole. It is a cauldron of violence and decay. It is a one party city. There are no big bad wolf Republicans elected to any high office in the city and there haven't been for a number of years. So what is preventing your little socialist Utopian fairy-tale from coming to life in Baltimore?

But let me sum up the intellectual arguments on the Left; DAS RACISS...DAS RACISS....DAS RACISS...!!!
let's pretend you are right -
people still would rather live in Baltimore than in most Red States, given the racism they have to endure there.
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th July 2019, 09:31 PM   #11
Shalamar
Dark Lord of the JREF
 
Shalamar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Somewhere Else
Posts: 4,585
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
let's pretend you are right -
people still would rather live in Baltimore than in most Red States, given the racism they have to endure there.
Everyone knows that racism "Send Them back!" doesn't exist.
__________________

"The truth is out there. But the lies are inside your head."
Shalamar is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th July 2019, 10:15 PM   #12
WilliamSeger
Illuminator
 
WilliamSeger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,762
Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
Iím thinking that coming up with worse things to label your political opponents isnít a particularly effective way of reasoning with them or winning back some of their votes in future elections.

Stupid, deplorable, racist, now ďevilĒ. Ok, I bet this is the insult that will finally do them in. Thank god for this post.
One thing we can be pretty sure of by now is that neither of those things is going to happen. It's like arguing science and logic with a creationist who thinks the devil is using you to test his faith.
WilliamSeger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th July 2019, 10:35 PM   #13
dann
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 8,500
Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
Democratic run Baltimore is an absolute hell-hole. It is a cauldron of violence and decay. It is a one party city. There are no big bad wolf Republicans elected to any high office in the city and there haven't been for a number of years. So what is preventing your little socialist Utopian fairy-tale from coming to life in Baltimore?

But let me sum up the intellectual arguments on the Left; DAS RACISS...DAS RACISS....DAS RACISS...!!!

Whose "little socialist Utopian fairy-tale"? I haven't seen any Utopian fairy-tales mentioned in this thread.
I know as good as nothing about Baltimore, so I went to Wikipedia to try to learn more:

Quote:
Once a predominantly industrial town, with an economic base focused on steel processing, shipping, auto manufacturing (General Motors Baltimore Assembly), and transportation, the city experienced deindustrialization which cost residents tens of thousands of low-skill, high-wage jobs. The city now relies on a low-wage service economy, which accounts for 31% of jobs in the city. Around the turn of the 20th century, Baltimore was the leading US manufacturer of rye whiskey and straw hats. It also led in refining of crude oil, brought to the city by pipeline from Pennsylvania.

I guess that the straw-hat industry has very limited potential - in particular if high-skill, high-wage jobs are what you're looking for ...
But on the other hand, they seem to be doing something right in Baltimore - within the limitations of the Utopian fairy-tale called capitalism:

Quote:
The tech sector is rapidly growing as the Baltimore metro ranks 8th in the CBRE Tech Talent Report among 50 U.S. metro areas for high growth rate and number of tech professionals. Forbes ranked Baltimore fourth among America's "new tech hot spots."
(...)
Almost a quarter of the jobs in the Baltimore region were in science, technology, engineering and math as of mid 2013, in part attributed to the city's extensive undergraduate and graduate schools; maintenance and repair experts were included in this count.

And at the same time, "extensive undergraduate and graduate schools" are probably also the best way of making sure that people don't fall for Trumpian pipe dreams ...
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 29th July 2019 at 10:37 PM.
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th July 2019, 10:46 PM   #14
Norman Alexander
Philosopher
 
Norman Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 6,029
I'm seeing it much more like cheering on your favourite baseball team. The Trumpistas have joined the Trump cheer-squad in 2015/16, Fox is the local PR team selling them the merch, and they turn up at the events and cheer "the team" and "their captain" for all they are worth. So the more they get razzed for doing this, the stronger their allegiance to "the team". Like all super-fans, it's a reason to get out of bed in the morning, to thump each other on the back with encouragement, to gather together and to get a communal chant going for their side.

What they are not seeing is that "the team" and "their captain" have been on the take to another league and are the most consummate cheats and liars in the game. And the people they have lied to and cheated the most are these super-fans. Some of them woke up early on, but the die-hards are clinging to their notion of this imaginary super-team who they are going to ride to glory with. When they finally all lose the red mist, it will be a hard comedown for the team...perhaps even permanent.
__________________
...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornetsí nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015
Norman Alexander is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th July 2019, 10:51 PM   #15
Baylor
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 7,969
Originally Posted by dann View Post
Whose "little socialist Utopian fairy-tale"? I haven't seen any Utopian fairy-tales mentioned in this thread.
I know as good as nothing about Baltimore, so I went to Wikipedia to try to learn more:
I wasn't going to post in this silly thread but now I feel compelled. This post is a perfect example of my problem with the "skeptic" community. And it's no surprise it was authored by the person who does this the most.

You're never going to understand the world by reading wikipedia, or any other of your stupid hyperlinks. You have to experience Baltimore to understand it and its problems. It doesn't matter how "reputable" your source is, you don't know **** about what you're saying. Nearly every post you make demonstrates your naivete, especially when posting in "USA Politics." Your endless hyperlinks don't mask this, if anything, they illuminate it.

You knew nothing about Baltimore before you went to its wikipedia page, you know even less about Baltimore now.
Baylor is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th July 2019, 11:03 PM   #16
Baylor
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 7,969
Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
I'm seeing it much more like cheering on your favourite baseball team. The Trumpistas have joined the Trump cheer-squad in 2015/16, Fox is the local PR team selling them the merch, and they turn up at the events and cheer "the team" and "their captain" for all they are worth. So the more they get razzed for doing this, the stronger their allegiance to "the team". Like all super-fans, it's a reason to get out of bed in the morning, to thump each other on the back with encouragement, to gather together and to get a communal chant going for their side.

What they are not seeing is that "the team" and "their captain" have been on the take to another league and are the most consummate cheats and liars in the game. And the people they have lied to and cheated the most are these super-fans. Some of them woke up early on, but the die-hards are clinging to their notion of this imaginary super-team who they are going to ride to glory with. When they finally all lose the red mist, it will be a hard comedown for the team...perhaps even permanent.
God only knows what the hell this gibberish is suppose to mean.
Baylor is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th July 2019, 11:12 PM   #17
Norman Alexander
Philosopher
 
Norman Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 6,029
Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
God only knows what the hell this gibberish is suppose to mean.
God only knows what the hell this gibberish is suppose to mean.



See? I can post pointless, non-contributory responses too.
__________________
...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornetsí nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015
Norman Alexander is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th July 2019, 11:21 PM   #18
Lurch
Muse
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 901
Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
God only knows what the hell this gibberish is suppose to mean.
If you want something of an example of the super-fans cheering for their 'team' and captain, but later came to regret their blind worship, think a moment upon the early days of Hitler and his cabal. The scenes of the frenzied, joyous mobs who saw him as their saviour. Well, not so very long after they came to see what that madman was really on about.
Lurch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th July 2019, 11:29 PM   #19
WilliamSeger
Illuminator
 
WilliamSeger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,762
Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
I wasn't going to post in this silly thread but now I feel compelled. This post is a perfect example of my problem with the "skeptic" community. And it's no surprise it was authored by the person who does this the most.

You're never going to understand the world by reading wikipedia, or any other of your stupid hyperlinks. You have to experience Baltimore to understand it and its problems. It doesn't matter how "reputable" your source is, you don't know **** about what you're saying. Nearly every post you make demonstrates your naivete, especially when posting in "USA Politics." Your endless hyperlinks don't mask this, if anything, they illuminate it.

You knew nothing about Baltimore before you went to its wikipedia page, you know even less about Baltimore now.
What a pantload. Trump should have learned a little more about Cummings' district before spewing his lie-infested racist rant.
WilliamSeger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th July 2019, 11:48 PM   #20
Apathia
Philosopher
 
Apathia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Mesa, AZ
Posts: 5,277
I know this is "snowflake," "kumbaya" of me, but I'd rather come from the place that these people are being bigoted, as opposed to summing their existence up as bigots.

I have friends who all in for Trump, and they unconsciously say bigoted crap, yet in another context they deplore racism. Their discernment and
self-awareness is weak. But I find more to them than just bigots. I cannot call them "evil," especially when one of them is more open-hearted and kind in some respects than myself. Not evil, not deplorable, the whole of who they are is like that proverbial lotus blossoming from mud bound roots.

Yes, it grieves me when friends say vile, bigoted, and moronic things, that evidence they don't really believe in Liberty and Equality but are ready to goose-step to whatever version Authoritarianism and White Nationalism will take in America. But I've seen in each one of them more than their bigotry. So I don't heap judgement on them. I'm honest. I call out the racism, but somehow I've figured out how to do that without condemning them.

Maybe they'll never change. Maybe as this goes on they'll grow more racist. But I know I won't make a space for them to see better if I demonize them and consign them to Hell.
__________________
"At the Supreme Court level where we work, 90 percent of any decision is emotional. The rational part of us supplies the reasons for supporting our predilections."
Justice William O. Douglas

"Humans aren't rational creatures but rationalizing creatures."
Author Unknown
Apathia is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th July 2019, 12:50 AM   #21
Foolmewunz
Grammar Resistance Leader
TLA Dictator
 
Foolmewunz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Pattaya, Thailand
Posts: 41,262
Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
Democratic run Baltimore is an absolute hell-hole. It is a cauldron of violence and decay. It is a one party city. There are no big bad wolf Republicans elected to any high office in the city and there haven't been for a number of years. So what is preventing your little socialist Utopian fairy-tale from coming to life in Baltimore?

But let me sum up the intellectual arguments on the Left; DAS RACISS...DAS RACISS....DAS RACISS...!!!
Hilited: Sorry but Google Translate doesn't handle Redneck Faux Ebonics.

It's so nice when people out themselves.
__________________
Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele

It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable.
Foolmewunz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th July 2019, 01:15 AM   #22
Foolmewunz
Grammar Resistance Leader
TLA Dictator
 
Foolmewunz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Pattaya, Thailand
Posts: 41,262
Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
I wasn't going to post in this silly thread but now I feel compelled. This post is a perfect example of my problem with the "skeptic" community. And it's no surprise it was authored by the person who does this the most.

You're never going to understand the world by reading wikipedia, or any other of your stupid hyperlinks. You have to experience Baltimore to understand it and its problems. It doesn't matter how "reputable" your source is, you don't know **** about what you're saying. Nearly every post you make demonstrates your naivete, especially when posting in "USA Politics." Your endless hyperlinks don't mask this, if anything, they illuminate it.

You knew nothing about Baltimore before you went to its wikipedia page, you know even less about Baltimore now.
Are you now claiming to be from Baltimore?
__________________
Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele

It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable.
Foolmewunz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th July 2019, 01:19 AM   #23
WilliamSeger
Illuminator
 
WilliamSeger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,762
Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
Democratic run Baltimore is an absolute hell-hole. It is a cauldron of violence and decay. It is a one party city. There are no big bad wolf Republicans elected to any high office in the city and there haven't been for a number of years. So what is preventing your little socialist Utopian fairy-tale from coming to life in Baltimore?

But let me sum up the intellectual arguments on the Left; DAS RACISS...DAS RACISS....DAS RACISS...!!!
Did you know that Cummings' district includes Columbia, MD, a "planned community" built in the 60s that is consistently rated as one of the top 10 places to live in the U.S.? Can you sum up the "intellectual argument" for why Trump chose the inner-city slums as representative of Cummings' district rather than Columbia?

I can.
WilliamSeger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th July 2019, 01:26 AM   #24
Foolmewunz
Grammar Resistance Leader
TLA Dictator
 
Foolmewunz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Pattaya, Thailand
Posts: 41,262
Originally Posted by Apathia View Post
I know this is "snowflake," "kumbaya" of me, but I'd rather come from the place that these people are being bigoted, as opposed to summing their existence up as bigots.

I have friends who all in for Trump, and they unconsciously say bigoted crap, yet in another context they deplore racism. Their discernment and
self-awareness is weak. But I find more to them than just bigots. I cannot call them "evil," especially when one of them is more open-hearted and kind in some respects than myself. Not evil, not deplorable, the whole of who they are is like that proverbial lotus blossoming from mud bound roots.

Yes, it grieves me when friends say vile, bigoted, and moronic things, that evidence they don't really believe in Liberty and Equality but are ready to goose-step to whatever version Authoritarianism and White Nationalism will take in America. But I've seen in each one of them more than their bigotry. So I don't heap judgement on them. I'm honest. I call out the racism, but somehow I've figured out how to do that without condemning them.

Maybe they'll never change. Maybe as this goes on they'll grow more racist. But I know I won't make a space for them to see better if I demonize them and consign them to Hell.
I think I may have just reached my breaking point a bit ahead of you. I see very little distinction between "being bigoted" and "being a bigot". That's getting precariously close to "good people on both sides" and even "well, Hitler loved his dog". I'm willing to accept that bigots can have some good qualities. I don't think those good qualities suffice, though, to over-ride the bigotry, which I consider just about the worst politico-sociological view.
__________________
Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele

It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable.
Foolmewunz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th July 2019, 03:05 AM   #25
Cabbage
Graduate Poster
 
Cabbage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 1,547
Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
I wasn't going to post in this silly thread but now I feel compelled. This post is a perfect example of my problem with the "skeptic" community. And it's no surprise it was authored by the person who does this the most.

You're never going to understand the world by reading wikipedia, or any other of your stupid hyperlinks. You have to experience Baltimore to understand it and its problems. It doesn't matter how "reputable" your source is, you don't know **** about what you're saying. Nearly every post you make demonstrates your naivete, especially when posting in "USA Politics." Your endless hyperlinks don't mask this, if anything, they illuminate it.

You knew nothing about Baltimore before you went to its wikipedia page, you know even less about Baltimore now.
It's a shame; your first instinct tends to be the correct one...as it was in this case. LOL!
Cabbage is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th July 2019, 04:02 AM   #26
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 12,379
smartcooky has a birthday
Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
Did you know that Cummings' district includes Columbia, MD, a "planned community" built in the 60s that is consistently rated as one of the top 10 places to live in the U.S.? Can you sum up the "intellectual argument" for why Trump chose the inner-city slums as representative of Cummings' district rather than Columbia?

I can.
Ooooh! Ouch... I bet that smarted a bit!
__________________
ďGive me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore - if they're white!"
If you don't like my posts, my opinions, or my directness then put me on your ignore list.
This will be of benefit to both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste my time talking to you... simples! !
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th July 2019, 04:25 AM   #27
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 20,917
Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
Democratic run Baltimore is an absolute hell-hole. It is a cauldron of violence and decay. <gibber snip>
Citations for your claims?
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th July 2019, 04:28 AM   #28
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 20,917
Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
I wasn't going to post in this silly thread but now I feel compelled.


Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
This post is a perfect example of my problem with the "skeptic" community. And it's no surprise it was authored by the person who does this the most.


Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
You're never going to understand the world by reading wikipedia, or any other of your stupid hyperlinks. You have to experience Baltimore to understand it and its problems.
Ah yes, "damn the facts, I just don't like the place".

Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
It doesn't matter how "reputable" your source is, you don't know **** about what you're saying. Nearly every post you make demonstrates your naivete, especially when posting in "USA Politics." Your endless hyperlinks don't mask this, if anything, they illuminate it.
I see you are doing nothing, as usual, to refute the points made.


Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
You knew nothing about Baltimore before you went to its wikipedia page, you know even less about Baltimore now.
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th July 2019, 04:38 AM   #29
applecorped
Rotten to the Core
 
applecorped's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 19,637
it is revealing
__________________
All You Need Is Love.
applecorped is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th July 2019, 04:47 AM   #30
SuburbanTurkey
Graduate Poster
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Boston, USA
Posts: 1,884
Trump's supporters are not monolithic.

Some can still be aptly described as stupid. They may also be bigoted, but that is another factor. Someone who actually believes that Q is predicting a "storm" to round up all the DNC regulars is an idiot who has abandoned reason for wishful thinking.

There has always been a rabid base of out and out bigots. The worse Trump gets, the better they will like it. For them, the nastiness and race-baiting is the entire point. One might even call them deplorable, but what do I know?

There have also been the "devil's bargain" contingent. They tacitly approve of Trump's negative aspects in order to get other things they like, chiefly among them keeping control of power from their political enemies. As Trump becomes increasingly overtly racist, their continued support of Trump becomes increasingly morally dubious.

Trump hasn't had an election since 2016. It's really hard to say what his support is really like these days. 2020 will be a referendum on his racism.
__________________
Gobble gobble

Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 30th July 2019 at 04:48 AM.
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th July 2019, 05:11 AM   #31
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 47,491
Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
Iím thinking that coming up with worse things to label your political opponents isnít a particularly effective way of reasoning with them or winning back some of their votes in future elections.

Stupid, deplorable, racist, now ďevilĒ. Ok, I bet this is the insult that will finally do them in. Thank god for this post.
Which is why nothing Trump says or does can be called racist. You have to constantly move the racism bar so that Trump is never a racist because then they would be racists or willingly support them and that simply can not be true.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th July 2019, 05:12 AM   #32
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 47,491
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
We all have some racial biases, some more than others.
And it takes effort not to be influenced by them day to day.
Trump's open racism lifts the burden to have to always watch what you say, and that relief can cause people to be (temporarily) more racist than they really like to be.
It's a bit like having to be sober for years and then being given permission to go and have a drink.
I think and hope that the current case of implicit support from Trump's racism won't last until 2020 - Racists don't like to be called Racists, but most don't really like being Racist, either.
Why calling it racist is right out, so this isn't racist rhetoric. It is the new normal for republicans.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th July 2019, 05:14 AM   #33
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 47,491
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
2020 will be a referendum on his racism.
Just like 2016 was. Lots of people are perfectly comfortable with it.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th July 2019, 05:25 AM   #34
newyorkguy
Penultimate Amazing
 
newyorkguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: NY
Posts: 10,134
I have friends from Baltimore and have visited there a number of times. Like any major city it has tough neighborhoods, but I enjoyed being there and look forward to visiting again. Anyone who would call it a hellhole is obviously a) someone who has never been there or is b) someone who will support anything Donnie cares to throw out. In keeping with the spirit of this thread: It's a case of dirtbags being dirtbags.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Trumped.jpg (54.4 KB, 6 views)
newyorkguy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th July 2019, 05:25 AM   #35
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 43,932
Do you feel better now that you've had your two minutes hate?
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th July 2019, 05:40 AM   #36
newyorkguy
Penultimate Amazing
 
newyorkguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: NY
Posts: 10,134
Only twenty-six years ago:

Quote:
It was 1993, and Trump's target at the time was the Mashantucket Pequots, whose Foxwoods casino and high-stakes bingo hall was less than two years old but had already eclipsed the big hotels of Atlantic City and Las Vegas. "They don't look like Indians to me," Trump said to a congressional subcommittee inquiring about organized crime and policing in Native American casinos. "They don't look like Indians to Indians."

Weicker, a former Republican, was Trump's fellow straight-talker and political independent who tended to speak quickly ó but wisely, unlike Trump. He didn't hesitate the next morning when reporters asked for a response. "My opposition isn't just to casinos in Bridgeport, it's to Donald Trump," Weicker said. "I came to a very fast conclusion that we don't need that dirtbag in Connecticut." link to Hartford Courant
Trump immediately fired back calling Connecticut Governor Weicker "a fat slob who couldn't get elected dog catcher in Connecticut." But the tag -- dirtbag -- really resonated. And still does!
newyorkguy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th July 2019, 05:48 AM   #37
Horatius
NWO Kitty Wrangler
 
Horatius's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 27,292
Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
Iím thinking that coming up with worse things to label your political opponents isnít a particularly effective way of reasoning with them or winning back some of their votes in future elections.

Stupid, deplorable, racist, now ďevilĒ. Ok, I bet this is the insult that will finally do them in. Thank god for this post.


At this point, it's not about "winning back" any Trump voters. What the Democrats would have to do to appeal to those people would destroy them as a legitimate alternative to the racist, evil GOP.


What it is about is motivating enough of the people who didn't vote in the last election to come out and vote against Trump. Even a small increase in the voter participation rate could put paid to Trump et al. in a decisive manner. This is what the Dems should be focusing on for the next year and half, and is exactly what a lot of them are doing already.
__________________
Obviously, that means cats are indeed evil and that ownership or display of a feline is an overt declaration of one's affiliation with dark forces. - Cl1mh4224rd
Horatius is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th July 2019, 05:55 AM   #38
IsThisTheLife
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 372
Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
Only twenty-six years ago:



Trump immediately fired back calling Connecticut Governor Weicker "a fat slob who couldn't get elected dog catcher in Connecticut." But the tag -- dirtbag -- really resonated. And still does!
Why do you refer to the word used in this name-calling as a "tag"? Is it supposed to make it sound like it was an example of something other than name-calling? Something subtle and insightful that people like you "get"? Would, say, "sleazebag" or "scumbag" or "douchebag" have "resonated" less?

LoL at typical "liberal" lack of self-awareness.
__________________
"There is no sin except stupidity."
IsThisTheLife is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th July 2019, 06:30 AM   #39
Foolmewunz
Grammar Resistance Leader
TLA Dictator
 
Foolmewunz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Pattaya, Thailand
Posts: 41,262
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Do you feel better now that you've had your two minutes hate?
I think the question is whether you've enjoyed your 2.5 years of defending and running interference for the merchants of hate?
__________________
Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele

It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable.
Foolmewunz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th July 2019, 07:38 AM   #40
Apathia
Philosopher
 
Apathia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Mesa, AZ
Posts: 5,277
Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
I think I may have just reached my breaking point a bit ahead of you. I see very little distinction between "being bigoted" and "being a bigot". That's getting precariously close to "good people on both sides" and even "well, Hitler loved his dog". I'm willing to accept that bigots can have some good qualities. I don't think those good qualities suffice, though, to over-ride the bigotry, which I consider just about the worst politico-sociological view.
Be very careful that you aren't being bigoted yourself.

But note this, for all your presentation of "Trumpistas" as being "evil," I don't feel you're a bigot. You're just indulging in some bigoted language because you're angry at and fed up with people who seem too dense to ever get what jerks they're being. And I confess the times I've walked away from someone spewing hateful dreck, muttering to myself, "Moron!" Then on next encounter, I treat my "moron" with the respect due a sentient person, as opposed to a "Trumpista."
__________________
"At the Supreme Court level where we work, 90 percent of any decision is emotional. The rational part of us supplies the reasons for supporting our predilections."
Justice William O. Douglas

"Humans aren't rational creatures but rationalizing creatures."
Author Unknown
Apathia is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:00 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.