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Old 4th July 2019, 08:51 PM   #401
Puppycow
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Trillions?
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Old 4th July 2019, 09:04 PM   #402
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
You're definitely wrong about that. And artificially restricting the context to one single person is a logical fallacy when the issue is far larger than one alt.right propagandist.
Context my ass. You can’t justify a brutal attack, so you try to change the subject.

Quote:
Excerpt:
Bwahahaha! “Ethnographic”. That’s academic jargon for unverified anecdotes.

Quote:
It's easy to dismiss direct action against fascists when you're not the ones they're targeting for assault and murder.
Andy Ngo wasn’t targeting anyone for assault or murder. He was the one targeted for assault, and it could very easily have turned into murder. You’re engaging in DARVO.
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Old 4th July 2019, 11:40 PM   #403
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
Right.. got it.

I just couldn't understand it after the first coupla passes.

Just to check I've got it right. He went to film the far right groups attacking peaceful, I assume, "activists" so that he could subsequently propagandize this action by hopefully finding a victim or two who had carried out some nefarious act on behalf of activists previously. Once identified, he would profit by appearing on national media and doxxing and harassing said victims. He was, for a given value of successfully, successfully shut down.

Assuming I've unravelled this correctly, the players on either side of this sideshow have got be the biggest ******* dickheads in the US and elsewhere currently. What a ******* joke.
You haven't "unravelled" it correctly, which is strange because it's in English which I assume is your first language. It's my secondary language, and I had no trouble understanding it.

Try again.
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Old 4th July 2019, 11:41 PM   #404
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
Correct.
No, not correct.
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Old 4th July 2019, 11:43 PM   #405
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Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post
Seems to me that fascists, whether left or right, are always able to paint themselves as perpetual victims and their violence as self defense.
There are no left wing fascists.

Bothsidesism is helping the actual fascists. In fact, it's one of the primary goals of fascist organizing. Well done. You are helping the Nazis.
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Old 5th July 2019, 12:16 AM   #406
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
So you support executing gay men and women by throwing them off tall buildings?

Yes, we all know that's what Muslims do, right?! It's not what religious fundamentalists do - including some of the best pals of the USA ...
Trump once said Saudis ‘push gays … off buildings.’ They just gave him a warm welcome. (WP, May 20, 2017)
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Old 5th July 2019, 12:20 AM   #407
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
There are no left wing fascists.
Depends what you mean by the word, I guess. But there are certainly left wingers with ideologies which are just as violent, just as controlling, just as destructive, as just as evil as any fascist. So sure, I'll give you the semantic point if you insist, but it doesn't mean much.
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Old 5th July 2019, 12:25 AM   #408
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Glad to hear we've not yet reached the caustic-substance-attacks phase of the revolution.

So when people didn't do something, your response is simply to add: "... yet!"
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Old 5th July 2019, 12:51 AM   #409
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
You haven't "unravelled" it correctly, which is strange because it's in English which I assume is your first language. It's my secondary language, and I had no trouble understanding it.

Try again.
Would you care to explain where I'm going wrong? Have I got the players the wrong way around?

Ngo wasn't going to film battles for propaganda purposes?

Ngo wasn't suspected of hoping to find "victims" that he could dox and harrass because they had committed some, to him, transgression against the right.

This is a genuine request so I'd appreciate it if you'd cut out your snark.

Last edited by bluesjnr; 5th July 2019 at 12:55 AM.
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Old 5th July 2019, 01:38 AM   #410
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
Would you care to explain where I'm going wrong? Have I got the players the wrong way around?

Ngo wasn't going to film battles for propaganda purposes?

Ngo wasn't suspected of hoping to find "victims" that he could dox and harrass because they had committed some, to him, transgression against the right.

This is a genuine request so I'd appreciate it if you'd cut out your snark.
Nope. I'm done spoonfeeding the willfully obtuse. Byeeeee.
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Old 5th July 2019, 02:52 AM   #411
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Nope. I'm done spoonfeeding the willfully obtuse. Byeeeee.
I think it's more to do with the fact that you haven't a clue what the idiot who made the statement is rabidly ranting about than anything to do with me being wilfully obtuse. I had genuinely considered that there was some, dare I say, nuance that I was missing.

Your dodge is pitiful.
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Old 5th July 2019, 04:55 AM   #412
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Depends what you mean by the word, I guess. But there are certainly left wingers with ideologies which are just as violent, just as controlling, just as destructive, as just as evil as any fascist. So sure, I'll give you the semantic point if you insist, but it doesn't mean much.
It means everything
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Old 5th July 2019, 05:34 AM   #413
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Nope. I'm done spoonfeeding the willfully obtuse. Byeeeee.

Yeah, after reading that, I cannot understand how anyone could not understand it, unless they were being deliberately obtuse, or had a poor grasp of English.
They spelling everything out in pretty clear and simple language. Actively promoting fascist rallies and mob action kind of gives the lie to his claim to be a pure journalist.
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Old 5th July 2019, 05:35 AM   #414
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Who's doing this?

And why is it wrong to allow people to bring their culture to a multi-cultural melting pot? That's how it's always been. Why should muslims be excluded?
If the majority of a given country's population decide they want limits on numbers immigrating from muslim countries, and legislation is then put in place accordingly, it's then both the will of the people and the law of that country that excludes them, that's why, whether you or anyone else likes it or not.
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Old 5th July 2019, 05:42 AM   #415
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
There are no left wing fascists.
There are certainly left wing totalitarian mass murderers, though. They use the same tactics to gain power, and they perpetrate the same horrors once they have power. So who gives a **** that you don't call yourselves fascists? At that point, what does it matter, what you call yourselves?

I call it all fascism, but I'll call it whatever you want, as long as it's clear what we're talking about.

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Old 5th July 2019, 06:22 AM   #416
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Do we really have to remind the conservatives and centrists of the number of people killed by their wars and so-called interventions?
In the 1960s and '70s we called that fascism, too.
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Old 5th July 2019, 06:45 AM   #417
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Do we really have to remind the conservatives and centrists of the number of people killed by their wars and so-called interventions?
In the 1960s and '70s we called that fascism, too.
Hell, to win this particular discussion, all we have to do is to point out how many people Nazis have killed in the US in the last year versus how many people Antifa have killed. Really puts the lie to their handwringing.
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Old 5th July 2019, 06:51 AM   #418
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Trillions?
That's how evil I am. I first cause a population explosion just to give me more innocents to grind under my boot! What could possibly go wrong with first increasing the strength of your intended victims?
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Old 5th July 2019, 07:03 AM   #419
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
So when people didn't do something, your response is simply to add: "... yet!"
Is there something in their stated principles that forbids this sort of escalation?
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Old 5th July 2019, 07:03 AM   #420
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Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post
Attacking journalists is a feature of antifa, not a bug
https://jessesingal.substack.com/p/i...-a-debate-over
Yup. It happens every day, which is why all of your links are from August, 2017.
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Old 5th July 2019, 07:06 AM   #421
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
So when people didn't do something, your response is simply to add: "... yet!"
I am not exaggerating when I say that, on the Alex Jones show, he and his guests this week were calling the alleged cement milkshakes "chemical weapons" and openly advocating for the start of a "kinetic" (as opposed to a cold) civil war, criminalizing Antifa, asking Trump to federalize the National Guard, and openly killing liberal journalists in the streets.
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Old 5th July 2019, 07:49 AM   #422
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Trillions?
Sorry, I meant quadrillion.
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Old 5th July 2019, 08:19 AM   #423
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Old 5th July 2019, 09:21 AM   #424
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
I am not exaggerating when I say that, on the Alex Jones show, he and his guests this week were calling the alleged cement milkshakes "chemical weapons" and openly advocating for the start of a "kinetic" (as opposed to a cold) civil war, criminalizing Antifa, asking Trump to federalize the National Guard, and openly killing liberal journalists in the streets.

Given that that kind of rhetoric has pretty much defined Alex Jones' entire broadcasting career, not seeing why it's anything noteworthy in this case.
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Old 5th July 2019, 10:30 AM   #425
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Except, of course, that's been totally debunked. There were no acid- or cement-infused milkshakes. They were, in fact, vegan milkshakes that the police tried to say were cement.

Be fair though, that's an easy mistake to make.

That ... that is just soy delicious!
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Old 5th July 2019, 10:41 AM   #426
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For the record, I believe that all the white-power mental defectives and the kids playing super-hero dress-up should be hung from the same tree.
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Old 5th July 2019, 11:05 AM   #427
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Given that that kind of rhetoric has pretty much defined Alex Jones' entire broadcasting career, not seeing why it's anything noteworthy in this case.
It's significant to me in that AJ and his fellow travelers have been crusading against federal power since the Clinton administration, and this week he had a guest calling on Trump to "federalize" the National Guard from border states and AJ agreed with him. Also the overt calls for violence are coming fast and furious lately.
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Old 5th July 2019, 11:59 AM   #428
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
For the record, I believe that all the white-power mental defectives and the kids playing super-hero dress-up should be hung from the same tree.
Mass lynchings seems a bit much.
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Old 5th July 2019, 12:06 PM   #429
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Mass lynchings seems a bit much.
The irony alone would be worth the effort.
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Old 5th July 2019, 10:46 PM   #430
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Depends what you mean by the word, I guess. But there are certainly left wingers with ideologies which are just as violent, just as controlling, just as destructive, as just as evil as any fascist. So sure, I'll give you the semantic point if you insist, but it doesn't mean much.
Are you serious? Or do you just lack a good dictionary? I look forward to your conservative brethren rushing into the thread to correct you. Nazis, see, can only be card-carrying members of Hitler's National Socialists. Just as merely chanting anti-semitic slogans, wearing swastikas, giving Nazi salutes, celebrating Hitler's birthday, etc... cannot be used to call someone a nazi, I think merely being violent towards your political ends is further No True Nazi behavior.

You'll need a new word.
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Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele

It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable.
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Old 5th July 2019, 10:53 PM   #431
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Is there anything in there? I'm not listening to 1:11:00 of Ngo droning on in a pity party with a fellow right wing non-entity.
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Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele

It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable.
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Old 6th July 2019, 09:11 AM   #432
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Are you serious? Or do you just lack a good dictionary? I look forward to your conservative brethren rushing into the thread to correct you. Nazis, see, can only be card-carrying members of Hitler's National Socialists. Just as merely chanting anti-semitic slogans, wearing swastikas, giving Nazi salutes, celebrating Hitler's birthday, etc... cannot be used to call someone a nazi, I think merely being violent towards your political ends is further No True Nazi behavior.

You'll need a new word.
I thought you were supposed to be good with language, yet you're falling down spectacularly in ignoring its actual purpose. I don't care which specific word gets used, and I'm not interested in fighting about it. But words get used to convey meaning. And the relevant meaning that people were trying to convey with the word fascist is an authoritarian and violence-prone group. And the communists fit that bill quite well. Want to call them fascists? I don't care. Refuse to call them fascists? I don't care. Meaning is more important than vocabulary. Yet meaning is what you're studiously avoiding here.
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Old 6th July 2019, 10:29 AM   #433
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
And the relevant meaning that people were trying to convey with the word fascist is an authoritarian and violence-prone group.
By that definition every state is a fascist state, and every police department is a fascist group.
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Old 6th July 2019, 10:56 AM   #434
Ziggurat
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
By that definition every state is a fascist state, and every police department is a fascist group.
Uh... no. Not even close. Plus, the whole point is that I don't care if you drop the term "fascist". I'm not trying to define "fascist". There are definitions of fascism under which communists are not fascist. And I'm OK with such definitions. But that doesn't mean communists aren't as bad as fascists. They are.
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Old 6th July 2019, 10:58 AM   #435
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Is there anything in there? I'm not listening to 1:11:00 of Ngo droning on in a pity party with a fellow right wing non-entity.
Bret Weinstein supported Bernie Sanders over Clinton, describes his politics as "progressive" and has never voted Republican. What are you trying to say when you describe him as "right wing"
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Old 6th July 2019, 11:05 AM   #436
caveman1917
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
John McCain was such a person.
Never heard of Oleh Tyahnybok, I presume?
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"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin

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Old 6th July 2019, 11:14 AM   #437
caveman1917
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Uh... no. Not even close.
Uh...yes, not just close but exactly on target. The state, almost by definition, holds the monopoly on the use of violence and is, again almost by definition, authoritarian; and expresses both primarily through its police departments. How the hell is this even contentious?

Quote:
Plus, the whole point is that I don't care if you drop the term "fascist". I'm not trying to define "fascist". There are definitions of fascism under which communists are not fascist. And I'm OK with such definitions. But that doesn't mean communists aren't as bad as fascists. They are.
I'm sure there are definitions of fascism under which pretty much anything is true. Indeed, I present you a definition of fascism under which you are a fascist: Define fascism as whatever it is that Zigg believes or supports.

The definition you actually gave though, makes every state a fascist state and every law enforcement department a fascist group, whether communist, liberal democratic, or "fascist" in the usual sense of the word.
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"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
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Old 6th July 2019, 12:08 PM   #438
Ziggurat
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Uh...yes, not just close but exactly on target. The state, almost by definition, holds the monopoly on the use of violence and is, again almost by definition, authoritarian;
"Authoritarian" doesn't simply mean that they are an authority. And the fact that the state has a monopoly on violence doesn't mean that that's always their go-to tool. Unless you want to take some weird anarchist view of all states being illegitimate, then there's clearly a difference between states in regards to both how controlling they are and how violent they are.

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The definition you actually gave though, makes every state a fascist state and every law enforcement department a fascist group, whether communist, liberal democratic, or "fascist" in the usual sense of the word.
Except "authoritarian and violent" isn't my definition of fascism. I'm not trying to define fascism. I was, in fact, trying to get away from the use of the word. But you're so clueless you tried circling back to it because... well, there's really no logical reason at all. It's so stupendously stupid a move that I can't possibly come up for a motivation behind it.
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
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Old 6th July 2019, 12:30 PM   #439
caveman1917
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
"Authoritarian" doesn't simply mean that they are an authority.
True, they'd for example have to impose their authority through violence, which leads us to...

Quote:
And the fact that the state has a monopoly on violence doesn't mean that that's always their go-to tool.
Then by that logic nobody or no group is fascist, because for nobody it is the case that violence is always their go-to tool.

Quote:
Unless you want to take some weird anarchist view of all states being illegitimate, then there's clearly a difference between states in regards to both how controlling they are and how violent they are.
The definition did not say anything about "legitimate" or "illegitimate" violence, furthermore it is the case for any group that they're going to consider their own violence "legitimate." It remains, however, a simple and empirically observable fact that the state is by far the most violent authoritarian group in society.

Quote:
Except "authoritarian and violent" isn't my definition of fascism. I'm not trying to define fascism. I was, in fact, trying to get away from the use of the word. But you're so clueless you tried circling back to it because... well, there's really no logical reason at all. It's so stupendously stupid a move that I can't possibly come up for a motivation behind it.
I'd rather not get away from the use of the word, it has epistemic use as a political category. Or at least it does under some proper definition of the word rather than the stupid one you gave (and note here that I never said that it was your definition of fascism, merely that you gave it - as in, presented it as an example of a definition of fascism). As for a motivation behind it, in general because that sort of definition of fascism gets thrown around a lot mostly by the politically ignorant and it makes sense to point out that such definition is simply defining any state, and in particular because of the following comment you made:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
And you're actually excusing actual violence, you're in no position to lecture me.
I wanted to see whether 1) you would acknowledge that such definition applies to even a liberal democratic state and 2) whether you would start excusing the actual violence when it comes from "your" side, such as by introducing concepts such as "legitimate vs illegitimate violence."
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"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin

Last edited by caveman1917; 6th July 2019 at 12:33 PM.
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Old 6th July 2019, 12:43 PM   #440
Ziggurat
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
I'd rather not get away from the use of the word, it has epistemic use as a political category. Or at least it does under some proper definition of the word rather than the stupid one you gave (and note here that I never said that it was your definition of fascism, merely that you gave it - as in, presented it as an example of a definition of fascism).
No. I didn't give it as my definition, or ANYONE ELSE's definition, of fascism. I gave them as relevant qualities of two groups under consideration. Right-wing fascists have those qualities, but they may not suffice to define fascism, and I didn't claim they did. I didn't even claim anyone else did either. I'm merely pointing out that both people on the far right AND the far left have these qualities. And for the purposes of the discussion that was taking place, those qualities are the most important ones.
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