ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 6th July 2019, 12:51 PM   #441
caveman1917
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 6,595
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
No. I didn't give it as my definition, or ANYONE ELSE's definition, of fascism. I gave them as relevant qualities of two groups under consideration. Right-wing fascists have those qualities, but they may not suffice to define fascism, and I didn't claim they did. I didn't even claim anyone else did either.
What you literally said was this:
Quote:
And the relevant meaning that people were trying to convey with the word fascist is an authoritarian and violence-prone group.
So unless you want to quibble over the distinction between "the relevant meaning conveyed by the word X" and "the definition of the word X" that constitutes you giving it as a - someone else's - definition of the word "fascism."

Quote:
I'm merely pointing out that both people on the far right AND the far left have these qualities.
Then surely you would have no issue with me additionally pointing out that people on the center, center-left, and center-right do so as well.
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
caveman1917 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th July 2019, 01:04 PM   #442
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 43,870
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
What you literally said was this:


So unless you want to quibble over the distinction between "the relevant meaning conveyed by the word X" and "the definition of the word X" that constitutes you giving it as a - someone else's - definition of the word "fascism."
It's not a quibble. It's very common for people to use a word then they want to convey part of the definition of the word, but possibly not the entire definition. That's often how language actually gets used.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th July 2019, 01:20 PM   #443
caveman1917
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 6,595
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
It's not a quibble. It's very common for people to use a word then they want to convey part of the definition of the word, but possibly not the entire definition. That's often how language actually gets used.
Fine, let's call them "relevant qualities" then. Moving on, you then further made the following moral judgement:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
But that doesn't mean communists aren't as bad as fascists. They are.
based on them sharing those relevant qualities. Would you then also judge centrists, center-lefts, and center-rights (presumably including yourself somewhere in there, if not then explicitly include yourself) to be "as bad as" fascists? As per the argument outlined in my previous posts, which you ignored whilst only focusing on the question of whether those relevant qualities do or do not constitute a "definition" of the word.
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin

Last edited by caveman1917; 6th July 2019 at 01:23 PM.
caveman1917 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th July 2019, 01:25 PM   #444
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 43,870
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Would you then also judge that centrists, center-lefts, and center-rights (presumably including yourself somewhere in there, if not then explicitly include yourself) to be "as bad as" fascists?
For the most part, no, they aren't nearly as bad.

I'll even go a step further. There are even people on the far left and far right who aren't into violence or totalitarian control. But the far ends of both side is where you find most of the political evil. And the far left isn't any better than the far right in that regard.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th July 2019, 01:32 PM   #445
caveman1917
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 6,595
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
For the most part, no, they aren't nearly as bad.

I'll even go a step further. There are even people on the far left and far right who aren't into violence or totalitarian control. But the far ends of both side is where you find most of the political evil. And the far left isn't any better than the far right in that regard.
You're asserting, not arguing. If communists are "as bad as" fascists because of sharing those "relevant qualities" then why isn't the rest of the political spectrum "as bad as" fascists if they also share those "relevant qualities"?
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
caveman1917 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th July 2019, 02:10 PM   #446
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 43,870
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
You're asserting, not arguing.
You asked me for my judgment, not my reasoning. I gave it to you.

Quote:
If communists are "as bad as" fascists because of sharing those "relevant qualities"
Plus, you know, their actual history of killing even more people than fascists ever did.

Quote:
then why isn't the rest of the political spectrum "as bad as" fascists if they also share those "relevant qualities"?
Because they don't. You're taking a deliberately superficial interpretation of my words which obviously doesn't match the actual intent of my posts in order to make some stupid bull **** argument which has no point and no place in this thread, for no reason comprehensible to anyone else but you.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th July 2019, 02:40 PM   #447
caveman1917
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 6,595
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Plus, you know, their actual history of killing even more people than fascists ever did.
Well in that case liberal democracies should definitely be "as bad as" fascists because of their actual history of killing even more people than either fascists or communists.

Quote:
Because they don't. You're taking a deliberately superficial interpretation of my words which obviously doesn't match the actual intent of my posts in order to make some stupid bull **** argument which has no point and no place in this thread, for no reason comprehensible to anyone else but you.
You're more than free to make your argument and have been all this time. Oh and, if you hold that arguments that communists are "as bad as" fascists because of sharing certain qualities have a point and place in this thread, as you seem to do, judging by you making these arguments in this very thread, then you can hardly claim that it would have no point and no place in this thread to argue the same for other parts of the political spectrum.

Have you considered that going on rants rather than substantively engaging with any of the points made may be due to cognitive dissonance, in particular regarding the moral high ground you've asserted for yourself in relation to luchog with respect to the "actually excusing actual violence" point, which may be found baseless if it turns out you can not argue that your reference to "legitimate vs illegitimate violence" constitutes anything else but merely one form such "actual excuse for actual violence" can take?
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin

Last edited by caveman1917; 6th July 2019 at 02:51 PM.
caveman1917 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th July 2019, 02:52 PM   #448
Wolrab
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 4,542
Change the names Fascists, communist, Trump Voters, right or left wing to Christians, Jews, Muslims, or any other religious group and it reads the same. Those heretics don't believe in my one true god, they don't deserve to live!
__________________
"Such reports are usually based on the sighting of something the sighters cannot explain and that they (or someone else on their behalf) explain as representing an interstellar spaceship-often by saying "But what else can it be?" as though thier own ignorance is a decisive factor." Isaac Asimov
Wolrab is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th July 2019, 02:56 PM   #449
caveman1917
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 6,595
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Hell, to win this particular discussion, all we have to do is to point out how many people Nazis have killed in the US in the last year versus how many people Antifa have killed. Really puts the lie to their handwringing.
And how many people cops (and other such parts of the state) have killed.
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
caveman1917 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th July 2019, 03:07 PM   #450
caveman1917
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 6,595
Originally Posted by Wolrab View Post
Change the names Fascists, communist, Trump Voters, right or left wing to Christians, Jews, Muslims, or any other religious group and it reads the same. Those heretics don't believe in my one true god, they don't deserve to live!
That's actually a good example of a difference between communists and fascists, and a defining feature of fascism, even if one were to cherry pick for communism the worst excesses made by any states calling themselves socialist. Fascists would essentialize ("you don't deserve to live because you are, in essence, X") and hence show the behaviour of, for example, killing children. The socialist states didn't but rather considered it as a problem of education (Gulags were re-education facilities, education through (forced) labour) and hence did not show such behaviour.
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
caveman1917 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th July 2019, 03:11 PM   #451
Wolrab
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 4,542
Gulags were schools 'eh? Not a place for reaping the benefits of slave labor in obscene, inhumane conditions? It is worse than I thought.
__________________
"Such reports are usually based on the sighting of something the sighters cannot explain and that they (or someone else on their behalf) explain as representing an interstellar spaceship-often by saying "But what else can it be?" as though thier own ignorance is a decisive factor." Isaac Asimov
Wolrab is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th July 2019, 03:25 PM   #452
caveman1917
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 6,595
Originally Posted by Wolrab View Post
Gulags were schools 'eh? Not a place for reaping the benefits of slave labor in obscene, inhumane conditions? It is worse than I thought.
Nah, you're thinking of the American prison system. In the Gulag system, though forced to do labour, inmates were paid the same wages as other workers. Besides, if it were just a place for reaping the benefits of slave labour then you'd sentence your inmates to more than on average 4 years, you'd at least sentence them to more than 5 years, like the American liberal democracy does.

Either way, it remains demonstrably the case that your analogy of "you don't deserve to live because you don't hold a certain belief" doesn't apply to fascists but may, again if one were cherry picking the worst excesses of any states calling themselves socialist, apply to communists.
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
caveman1917 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th July 2019, 04:05 PM   #453
Wolrab
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 4,542
Death rates:
According to Nicolas Werth, author of The Black Book of Communism, the yearly mortality rate in the Soviet concentration camps strongly varied, reaching 5% (1933) and 20% (19421943) while dropping considerably in the post-war years (about 1 to 3% per year at the beginning of the 1950s).[5][6] The emergent consensus among scholars who utilize official archival data is that of the 18 million who were sent to the Gulag from 1930 to 1953, roughly 1.5 to 1.7 million perished there or as a result of their detention.[7][8][9] However, some historians question the reliability of such data and instead rely heavily on literary sources come to higher estimations.[7][10] Archival researchers have found "no plan of destruction" of the gulag population and no statement of official intent to kill them, and prisoner releases vastly exceeded the number of deaths in the Gulag.[7]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulag


The Bureau of Justice Statistics estimates that 17,358 individuals in custody died during the period from 2007-2010.[13] Other publications focus on the rate per 100,000. US jails report deaths that total a mortality rate of 128, and prisons at 264 per 100,000.[14] There are differences in methodology used to obtain these statistics, as some jurisdictions include deaths during attempted arrests, while others do not


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_...ion_of_custody


A lot of deaths for a school system vs. a prison system.
__________________
"Such reports are usually based on the sighting of something the sighters cannot explain and that they (or someone else on their behalf) explain as representing an interstellar spaceship-often by saying "But what else can it be?" as though thier own ignorance is a decisive factor." Isaac Asimov
Wolrab is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th July 2019, 05:06 PM   #454
caveman1917
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 6,595
Originally Posted by Wolrab View Post
Death rates:
According to Nicolas Werth, author of The Black Book of Communism, the yearly mortality rate in the Soviet concentration camps strongly varied, reaching 5% (1933) and 20% (1942–1943) while dropping considerably in the post-war years (about 1 to 3% per year at the beginning of the 1950s).[5][6] The emergent consensus among scholars who utilize official archival data is that of the 18 million who were sent to the Gulag from 1930 to 1953, roughly 1.5 to 1.7 million perished there or as a result of their detention.[7][8][9] However, some historians question the reliability of such data and instead rely heavily on literary sources come to higher estimations.[7][10] Archival researchers have found "no plan of destruction" of the gulag population and no statement of official intent to kill them, and prisoner releases vastly exceeded the number of deaths in the Gulag.[7]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulag


The Bureau of Justice Statistics estimates that 17,358 individuals in custody died during the period from 2007-2010.[13] Other publications focus on the rate per 100,000. US jails report deaths that total a mortality rate of 128, and prisons at 264 per 100,000.[14] There are differences in methodology used to obtain these statistics, as some jurisdictions include deaths during attempted arrests, while others do not


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_...ion_of_custody


A lot of deaths for a school system vs. a prison system.
Oh but I agree that the Gulags were the Soviet prison system, they were not the Soviet school system, never said otherwise.

It's not clear what point you're trying to make. Are you arguing that the Soviet prison system wasn't based on the principle of re-education? Are you aware that the author you refer to, Werth, has stated that one of the clearest differences between the USSR and Nazi Germany was the absence of death camps in the former? This would further call your analogy of "you don't deserve to live because you don't believe X" in doubt, along with the fact that fascists would kill people on account of who they are and not just on account of what they believed in.

ETA: Have you noticed that the high mortality rates you refer to are either during a devastating nation-wide famine (1933) or during the devastation of the second world war? Outside of that they are within an order of magnitude of the numbers in the American prison system, and that's not considering the problem of comparing mortality rates in the 1940s-50s with those of today (for example differences in medical ability may have made things like outbreaks of infectious diseases more lethal). What is not within an order of magnitude is the wage received by American inmates relative to the minimum wage outside of prison, whereas for the Soviet prison system inmates received about equal pay as minimum wage workers, so if anything you'd have a better case for declaring the American prison system a "place for reaping the benefits of slave labor" than the Soviet one.
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin

Last edited by caveman1917; 6th July 2019 at 05:21 PM.
caveman1917 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th July 2019, 05:22 PM   #455
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 37,124
Not all fascists had death camps. Exterminating the undesirables was the Hitlerite perversion.

If Hitler had simply been willing to re-educate, he might actually have established a thousand year Reich. Probably not, but also he probably wouldn't have done much worse than International Socialism. Which is already pretty bad.

Spain and Italy never had death camps worth mentioning, in their fascist phases.

Stop conflating Nazism with fascism. It's at least as much uniquely Hitlerism, as it is anything else.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th July 2019, 05:54 PM   #456
portlandatheist
Illuminator
 
portlandatheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,144
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Hell, to win this particular discussion, all we have to do is to point out how many people Nazis have killed in the US in the last year versus how many people Antifa have killed. Really puts the lie to their handwringing.
Wow, antifa has killed less people than their NAZI opponents have. Now that is a super important and impressive data point! How bad is antifa in this discussion? Well lets compare and contrast them to NAZIs and now we know using that benchmark, by that comparison, they are hardly violent at all really.
I seriously don't understand that point. It makes no sense. "Hey, lets support these guys, they are less violent than NAZIs!"
portlandatheist is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th July 2019, 06:25 PM   #457
Wolrab
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 4,542
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Oh but I agree that the Gulags were the Soviet prison system, they were not the Soviet school system, never said otherwise.

It's not clear what point you're trying to make. Are you arguing that the Soviet prison system wasn't based on the principle of re-education? Are you aware that the author you refer to, Werth, has stated that one of the clearest differences between the USSR and Nazi Germany was the absence of death camps in the former? This would further call your analogy of "you don't deserve to live because you don't believe X" in doubt, along with the fact that fascists would kill people on account of who they are and not just on account of what they believed in.

ETA: Have you noticed that the high mortality rates you refer to are either during a devastating nation-wide famine (1933) or during the devastation of the second world war? Outside of that they are within an order of magnitude of the numbers in the American prison system, and that's not considering the problem of comparing mortality rates in the 1940s-50s with those of today (for example differences in medical ability may have made things like outbreaks of infectious diseases more lethal). What is not within an order of magnitude is the wage received by American inmates relative to the minimum wage outside of prison, whereas for the Soviet prison system inmates received about equal pay as minimum wage workers, so if anything you'd have a better case for declaring the American prison system a "place for reaping the benefits of slave labor" than the Soviet one.
Look at you defending the Gulags. How cute!
__________________
"Such reports are usually based on the sighting of something the sighters cannot explain and that they (or someone else on their behalf) explain as representing an interstellar spaceship-often by saying "But what else can it be?" as though thier own ignorance is a decisive factor." Isaac Asimov
Wolrab is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th July 2019, 06:31 PM   #458
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 37,124
Scratch an anarchist, find a communist.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th July 2019, 07:38 PM   #459
Foolmewunz
Grammar Resistance Leader
TLA Dictator
 
Foolmewunz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Pattaya, Thailand
Posts: 41,240
Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post
Bret Weinstein supported Bernie Sanders over Clinton, describes his politics as "progressive" and has never voted Republican. What are you trying to say when you describe him as "right wing"
Well, oops, I was wrong.

I'm asking you what's in the video. That's a common request. Long videos should have some explication. What is proved/proven in the video. What new insights does it offer.

WHY WOULD I WANT TO VIEW IT?
__________________
Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele

It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable.
Foolmewunz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th July 2019, 07:49 PM   #460
luchog
Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist
 
luchog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: The Emerald City
Posts: 15,820
Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post
Bret Weinstein supported Bernie Sanders over Clinton, describes his politics as "progressive" and has never voted Republican. What are you trying to say when you describe him as "right wing"

Bret Weinstein, despite having a somewhat left-leaning past, has spent the last few years cozying up to the first circle of hard-right pundits. Rather than being a true progressive, his political leanings have always been more libertarian, starting from left-libertarian, and have been steadily creeping farther to the right since the Obama administration.
__________________
"All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others." -- Douglas Adams
"The absence of evidence might indeed not be evidence of absence, but it's a pretty good start." -- PhantomWolf
"Let's see the buggers figure that one out." - John Lennon

Last edited by luchog; 6th July 2019 at 08:03 PM.
luchog is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th July 2019, 08:02 PM   #461
luchog
Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist
 
luchog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: The Emerald City
Posts: 15,820
Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post
Wow, antifa has killed less people than their NAZI opponents have. Now that is a super important and impressive data point! How bad is antifa in this discussion? Well lets compare and contrast them to NAZIs and now we know using that benchmark, by that comparison, they are hardly violent at all really.
I seriously don't understand that point. It makes no sense. "Hey, lets support these guys, they are less violent than NAZIs!"

Tell you what, why don't you tell us just how many people antifa activists have killed. I would, but so far I haven't been able to find a single death as the result of direct action by antifa activism in the last decade.

In contrast, there were forty-nine killed by one single fascist white supremacist in one single country alone, just this year. There were fifty such murders in 2018, and in the last decade, that number is well into the hundreds.

Really puts all those "violent" eggings and milkshakings in perspective, doesn't it. Apparently, the type of violence is just as important as the number of incidents.
__________________
"All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others." -- Douglas Adams
"The absence of evidence might indeed not be evidence of absence, but it's a pretty good start." -- PhantomWolf
"Let's see the buggers figure that one out." - John Lennon
luchog is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th July 2019, 08:05 PM   #462
portlandatheist
Illuminator
 
portlandatheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,144
Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Well, oops, I was wrong.

I'm asking you what's in the video. That's a common request. Long videos should have some explication. What is proved/proven in the video. What new insights does it offer.

WHY WOULD I WANT TO VIEW IT?
Thank you. Truly. I get frustrated when people try to brand everybody they don't like or don't agree with a blanket statement.
portlandatheist is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th July 2019, 08:08 PM   #463
portlandatheist
Illuminator
 
portlandatheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,144
Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Bret Weinstein, despite having a somewhat left-leaning past, has spent the last few years cozying up to the first circle of hard-right pundits. Rather than being a true progressive, his political leanings have always been more libertarian, starting from left-libertarian, and have been steadily creeping farther to the right since the Obama administration.
Isn't this a No true Scotsman? He votes progressive. He describes his politics as progressive. For sure, he has found a new audience after leaving Evergreen but I hardly see him as anything but a liberal.
portlandatheist is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th July 2019, 08:11 PM   #464
portlandatheist
Illuminator
 
portlandatheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,144
Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Tell you what, why don't you tell us just how many people antifa activists have killed.
Zero.
Quote:
In contrast..
Why are we contrasting antifa to the worst and most violent people in our society? What is the purpose of that? You need to raise the bar.
portlandatheist is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th July 2019, 08:33 PM   #465
Foolmewunz
Grammar Resistance Leader
TLA Dictator
 
Foolmewunz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Pattaya, Thailand
Posts: 41,240
Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post
Zero.

Why are we contrasting antifa to the worst and most violent people in our society? What is the purpose of that? You need to raise the bar.
These comparisons aren't being pulled out of thin air. This thread is replete with thinking conservatives pointing out that lefties on the antifa side are more violent by far than those on the right, and that this brutal attack is but one example. The counter-evidence is being offered in lieu of those ridiculous smoke-blowing defenses of the noble extreme right. The facts don't support their clownish argumentation but that matters not; they'll just take a deep breath and repeat the same accusations again and again.

That someone counters with the actual evidence showing them to be wrong? Well, that's their fault. They started it!
__________________
Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele

It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable.
Foolmewunz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th July 2019, 08:52 PM   #466
portlandatheist
Illuminator
 
portlandatheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,144
Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
These comparisons aren't being pulled out of thin air. This thread is replete with thinking conservatives pointing out that lefties on the antifa side are more violent by far than those on the right, and that this brutal attack is but one example. The counter-evidence is being offered in lieu of those ridiculous smoke-blowing defenses of the noble extreme right. The facts don't support their clownish argumentation but that matters not; they'll just take a deep breath and repeat the same accusations again and again.

That someone counters with the actual evidence showing them to be wrong? Well, that's their fault. They started it!
any conservatives painting the antifa side more violent is absurd in the extreme. This is a stupid game to play. I like what Ricky Gervais had to say in a series of tweets.
Quote:
Ricky Gervais has written some cool tweets about this:
Opposing left wing extremism doesn't mean you support right wing extremism. Opposing right wing extremism doesn't mean you support left wing extremism. You're allowed to hate all extremism. There are loads of other choices. Also, stop wasting milk.
and
Quote:
It's interesting that the people who believe that throwing a milkshake in someone's face shouldn't be considered assault are often the same people who believe that 'saying things' should be.
and
Quote:
Whatever side you're on politically, 'left' or 'right', you don't need violent factions joining you or representing you. They bring your cause into disrepute. They don't even care about your cause, they're just in it for the violence. Denounce them.
If I criticize antifa, that isn't an endorsement of NAZIsm or the proud boys or of the patriot prayers or of the 3 percenters. I ******* hate these people and so does everybody I know. It is only in Antifa that I run into apologists and sympathizers and so I feel compelled to say something about it. It doesn't matter that the others are worse. So what?
portlandatheist is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2019, 02:13 AM   #467
Giz
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 8,497
Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post

If I criticize antifa, that isn't an endorsement of NAZIsm or the proud boys or of the patriot prayers or of the 3 percenters. I ******* hate these people and so does everybody I know. It is only in Antifa that I run into apologists and sympathizers and so I feel compelled to say something about it. It doesn't matter that the others are worse. So what?
This.
Giz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2019, 02:24 AM   #468
dann
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 8,490
Originally Posted by dann View Post
Hate-monger attacked by concerned citizens ...

Apparently, nobody has had any objections to my alternative thread title in post 284. Or did I just miss them?
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2019, 04:54 AM   #469
caveman1917
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 6,595
Originally Posted by Wolrab View Post
Look at you defending the Gulags. How cute!
You should've just said from the start that you were intending to troll and not to have any sort of serious discussion, would've saved me the trouble of looking up the data.

ETA: Oh and, if we're going down this route anyway: "Look at you defending the Nazis. How cute!" (the source you referred to, the "Black Book of Communism", is one long text of Nazi apologia, for example including SS guards killed in Dachau during an escape attempt by Soviet prisoners as "victims of communism")
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin

Last edited by caveman1917; 7th July 2019 at 05:37 AM.
caveman1917 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2019, 04:55 AM   #470
caveman1917
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 6,595
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Scratch an anarchist, find a communist.
I'll take that as "your data supports your hypothesis but I don't like your hypothesis so I'll just start ad-homming instead"
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
caveman1917 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2019, 05:01 AM   #471
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 87,158
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Not all fascists had death camps. Exterminating the undesirables was the Hitlerite perversion.

If Hitler had simply been willing to re-educate, he might actually have established a thousand year Reich. Probably not, but also he probably wouldn't have done much worse than International Socialism. Which is already pretty bad.

Spain and Italy never had death camps worth mentioning, in their fascist phases.

Stop conflating Nazism with fascism. It's at least as much uniquely Hitlerism, as it is anything else.
Nazis were fascists so if you want an example of an actual "by the book" fascist movement gaining power and behaving as their claimed ideology said to behave then they are a very useful example.

Could you give me an example of a fascist movement that gained power and was a relatively good state?
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2019, 05:10 AM   #472
applecorped
Rotten to the Core
 
applecorped's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 19,624
Not all violence is created equal, some is imbued with righteousness, and defended as same
__________________
All You Need Is Love.

Last edited by applecorped; 7th July 2019 at 05:12 AM.
applecorped is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2019, 05:16 AM   #473
IsThisTheLife
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 372
Couldn't help noticing the sound of crickets when I mentioned Eric Clanton, the part-time instructor in "philosophy and ethics" and who enjoyed spending some of his (doubtlessly ample) spare time in 'black-bloc' Antifa attire smashing the aforementioned "fascists" over the head with a 2 kg u-lock.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muoR8Td44UE

https://www.berkeleyside.com/2017/08...-investigation

Plenty of discussion on the web at the time, but here's a random comment that puts it as well as any;

What school of thought would an ethics instructor ascribe to if they believed "if I disagree with your politics then I am obliged to fracture your skull"?


ETA >> I challenge anyone to find an example of a leftist/liberal/progressive even criticising Clanton, let alone denouncing him. He skated away from the felony assault charges brought against him with 3 years probation. To be honest, given SoCal law-enforcement's form in enabling maggots like him, I was actually surprised the charges were brought at all.
__________________
"There is no sin except stupidity."

Last edited by IsThisTheLife; 7th July 2019 at 05:29 AM.
IsThisTheLife is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2019, 05:38 AM   #474
Wolrab
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 4,542
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
You should've just said from the start that you were intending to troll and not to have any sort of serious discussion, would've saved me the trouble of looking up the data.
You try telling me Gulags were for re-education knowing full well they worked people to death for the crime of not thinking right and you are good with that? I'm not trolling, just showing your lack of credibility and dishonesty. You did it all yourself. Your violence is good and those people deserved to be hurt, right?


How can here be a serious discussion when you defend the undefendable?
__________________
"Such reports are usually based on the sighting of something the sighters cannot explain and that they (or someone else on their behalf) explain as representing an interstellar spaceship-often by saying "But what else can it be?" as though thier own ignorance is a decisive factor." Isaac Asimov
Wolrab is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2019, 05:51 AM   #475
caveman1917
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 6,595
Originally Posted by Wolrab View Post
You try telling me Gulags were for re-education knowing full well they worked people to death for the crime of not thinking right and you are good with that? I'm not trolling, just showing your lack of credibility and dishonesty. You did it all yourself. Your violence is good and those people deserved to be hurt, right?


How can here be a serious discussion when you defend the undefendable?
If they "worked people to death" then how come the sentences were so short and almost everyone was reintegrated in society after having served their sentences (only a small minority of inmates died in the Gulags)? If they were intending the facilities to be used for extracting value from slave labour then why did they pay the inmates wages comparable to minimum wages of other workers?

But these points have already been raised and you have not addressed them. The fact that you use a widely discredited source filled with Nazi apologia (the Black Book of Communism) also says a lot about your, in the best case, utter ignorance of the facts or, in the worst case, your political bias. Telling me about my "lack of credibility and dishonesty" has got to be one of the most ironic comments I've read in a while. All you're basically doing is repeating your assertions ad nauseam whilst ignoring any of the data that refutes them.

I hence remain of the opinion that you are simply trolling because it's the only thing you have left after your ignorance of the facts had been exposed. Did you know about the wage structure of the Gulag system? Did you know about the dynamics of the mortality rates refuting your claim of "being worked to the death"? Did you know about the sentencing statistics showing that most sentences were very short (less than 4 years)? Did you know about the sentencing statistics showing that only a small minority was sentenced to the Gulags for political crimes and most were sentenced, as in any other country with a prison system, for crimes such as theft and other things? No of course you didn't, why bother gathering any data when you can just argue out of ignorance? Maybe you should read your own signature line.
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
caveman1917 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2019, 07:03 AM   #476
pgwenthold
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 18,229
Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post
Zero.

Why are we contrasting antifa to the worst and most violent people in our society? What is the purpose of that? You need to raise the bar.
As someone said on twitter, you can't look in a mirror and say "Nazis suck" three times without someone popping up to ask, "What about antifa?"
__________________
"As your friend, I have to be honest with you: I don't care about you or your problems" - Chloe, Secret Life of Pets
pgwenthold is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2019, 08:15 AM   #477
isissxn
Rough Around the Edges
 
isissxn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Deep Storage
Posts: 6,066
Today I learned the gulags were just really tough and competitive schools.

I just... can't...



I don't think we need to go to such extremes in order to discuss the current happenings in the United States. The Nazis (current and past) were/are very, very bad. The gulags were also very, very bad. Most of the time, when one group decides to lock another group up for wrongthink, things have gotten very, very bad.

Last edited by isissxn; 7th July 2019 at 08:26 AM.
isissxn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2019, 08:25 AM   #478
Mumbles
Philosopher
 
Mumbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 7,120
Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
What absolute rubbish. Aggressors justify their aggression by claiming that it's actually "self defense". They seek out these conflicts and instigate them. What they don't seem to understand is that their own actions, their own "resistance" fuels the very thing they claim to oppose. You think attacking Andy Ngo was a propaganda victory for antifa or for the so-called fascists?
Ngo has repeatedly used his work to provide target lists for aggressively violent groups in the past, in at least one case without bothering to verify that the people he pointed out were at all aligned with Antifa. Given this, I think it's reasonable to think "It's worth the 'PR loss' to beat him badly enough to get him to stop putting innocent people in danger." I'm not saying I agree, but I'm not too sure that I disagree, either. Remember, he was ready to record them right there, right then, and the police will stop neither him, nor his aggressively violent pals.

Sometimes, the best way to deal with a bully is to whip him with a bicycle chain until he spends the rest of high school trying to stay away from you. Would a just society provide a better option? Doesn't matter if you live in a badly flawed one, like the US.
Mumbles is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2019, 08:25 AM   #479
isissxn
Rough Around the Edges
 
isissxn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Deep Storage
Posts: 6,066
meant to edit, not make a new post
isissxn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2019, 08:37 AM   #480
caveman1917
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 6,595
Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
Today I learned the gulags were just really tough and competitive schools.

I just... can't...
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...ffa6ccbb1f.jpg
And yet there is no evidence of them being death camps, and piles and piles of evidence of them being re-educational facilities. Sorry if the evidence refutes any beliefs you may held, but I am not responsible for that.
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
caveman1917 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:39 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.