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Old 8th July 2019, 08:09 AM   #521
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Are you still pretending Any Ngo is a journalist?
I'm not sure him being one or not has any bearing on whether he should be assaulted. Regardless, this tendency to want to slap a label on someone that makes assaulting them ok is disturbing.

Originally Posted by dann View Post
So it’s important that we all get up and defend Ngo's freedom to spread lies!
Are you saying that lies should be illegal? Who fact-checks this?
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Old 8th July 2019, 08:15 AM   #522
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
By gaining total control. When you make all the decisions, the standards always work for you. Stalin pulled it off, so did Mao.
So did Hitler. If only someone had stopped him before he rose to power.
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Old 8th July 2019, 08:21 AM   #523
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
So did Hitler. If only someone had stopped him before he rose to power.
The best defense against an authoritarian ******* taking power is a broad middle who respect civil liberties for as many as possible. Not people who demonize the other side while lauding violence.
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Old 8th July 2019, 08:28 AM   #524
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I can guarantee you that no good law will come from masked antifa and prouds boys clubbing each other in the streets. Expect an authoritarian overreach in the form of aggressive policing, prohibition of public assembly, or some other erosion of civil rights.

American policing has always been defined by authoritarian over-reach. The "Bloody Sunday" Selma march, the Kent State Massacre, Stonewall, COINTELPRO, the assassinations of Black Panther leaders, "Free Speech Zones", numerous BLM protests, particularly the 2014 Berkeley incident, the WTO conference in Seattle, and so on and so on. That's one of the problems that is being protested.

Civil rights have been eroding steadily for most of my lifetime; not because of protesters, but because of government pandering to megacorps, Dominionist Christians, and now neo-Nazis. Since Reagan, we've taken as many steps backwards as we have forwards. The War on Drugs, "Religious Freedom" legislation, anti-abortion legislation, military transgender ban, corporate personhood, the rollback of worker protections, the rollback of disabled and LGTBQ student protections, increasing restrictions on criticism and fair use of media via "intellectual property" legislation, and on and on. Not to mention Trump's "enemy of the people" rhetoric and policy of excluding non-sympathetic journalists. None of these are related to protesters or street brawling, they're all due to inherent authoritarianism, and pandering to billionaires and religious fanatics.

There isn't much the government can do to roll back civil rights that they have not already been working hard to do.
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Old 8th July 2019, 08:29 AM   #525
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Andy Ngo hasn't assaulted anyone. He was the one who was openly intimidated and assaulted.
Ah, but Ngo reports for right-wing audiences, which includes neo-Nazis, which kind-of subscribe to an ideology that resulted in millions of death. Ergo, he's just as bad as Hitler. Stop asking so many questions? Why do you like the Holocaust? Oh, you don't? Well, get punching, then.

Sorry, it's hard to write such nonsense in a way that sounds genuine. Somehow luchog manages to do it.

Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Okay, I can't have read that correctly. Are you saying fascist gangs are marching openly in the streets, intimidating minorities and "undesirables" because they have a grievance against the government?
He's talking about Antifa, for pete's sake.

Quote:
Wait a minute here. First, we're being told that antifa are terrorists because they commit political violence, now we're being told that they're not political, which means that they can't be terrorists by definition. Which is it?
It is possible for two people to hold mutually-exclusive opinions.
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Old 8th July 2019, 08:37 AM   #526
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
So did Hitler. If only someone had stopped him before he rose to power.
They did, remember? Put him in prison and everything.

The problem was that Weimar Germany was in the throes of socioeconomic collapse, and simultaneously in the middle of the fascist/socialist revolutionary spasm that had gripped much of Europe at the time.

So you have a region where the central government is weak, and the institutions that normally curb political excess are in tatters. At the same time, you have revolutionary mobs in the streets, exploiting the weakness of the government to lay down their own law with their fists.

The only people who were really in a position to stop Hitler at that point were the other Nazis, whom Hitler purged to avoid that very thing, and the Communists. And as we have seen wherever the Communists did win their revolutionary street fights, that cure was just as bad as the disease.

Historically, there are two things that stop fascists: Stable governments and prosperous societies, whose citizens are not particularly receptive to the fascist gospel of strength through unity and purity; and Communists, who preach the same gospel, use the same techniqes, and depend on the same social breakdown.

That's one of the subtler nuances of the antifa tantrums in Berkeley. They weren't defending anyone against violence. They weren't even just assaulting people preaching violence. A lot of what went on in Berkeley was "anti-fascists" attacking innocent bystanders and trashing local businesses. In Berkeley. That's not anti-fascism, that's anti-society. It's creating exactly the kind of societal breakdown that these violent revolutionaries thrive in.

In which these violent revolutionaries thrive.
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Old 8th July 2019, 08:37 AM   #527
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
So, the guys who go on and on about degeneracy and whoreishness in society and who want to remove women's rights and lock them in houses are happy to use Tinder?

Jesus christ, somebody help me, the cognitive dissonance and irony is suffocating.

I still don't understand this movement.
A whore is a women who won't sleep with them. If they were getting laid, they'd have no problem with promiscuous women. That's the short answer.
Repeated failures on the romantic market is an indication that society is broken. Introspection is not an option for these types.
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Old 8th July 2019, 09:16 AM   #528
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Are libelous personal attacks like this persuasive to anyone? Do they serve some other purpose?
Personal gratification.

Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post
It is starting to make sense: Andy Ngo isn't a real journalist, he is "fake news" and an "enemy of the people" and something "ought to be done about it". Also Jews and Asians we don't like are NAZIs.
You're right theprestige, the milkshake apologists are unsurprisingly head clubbing apologists.
Well, they were punching apologists before that so it's no surprise.

Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I disagree. Leftists not engaging in this sort of violence only means they become victims, because the right sure as hell won't stop.
Ah, there we have it. That's at least two posters here who espouse the idea that the US has become a Mad Max, lawless wasteland and that they need to go extra-judicial to save their civilisation.

Gee, who does that remind me of? Oh yeah, Nazis!
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Old 8th July 2019, 09:34 AM   #529
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
Leftists don't defend themselves. Leftists aren't victims. Leftists engage in violence because their ideology requires them to engage in violence. Killing millions of my fellow citizens cannot happen without violence and killing billions of my fellow citizens is the heart and soul of socialist philosophy--it's what socialism is all about. That is why demonstrations where antifa show up always end in bloodshed.
Chill out, dude. Smearing "the left" by lumping them together with the worst of them isn't any better than them calling all right-wingers "Nazis".

Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Nazis, see, can only be card-carrying members of Hitler's National Socialists.
Weren't you the one arguing about the capitalisation of the A in Antifa?

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
"Authoritarian" doesn't simply mean that they are an authority. And the fact that the state has a monopoly on violence doesn't mean that that's always their go-to tool. Unless you want to take some weird anarchist view of all states being illegitimate, then there's clearly a difference between states in regards to both how controlling they are and how violent they are.
I'm continually amazed at how often such basic things have to be explained to grown adults on this forum.
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Old 8th July 2019, 09:35 AM   #530
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
People always speak of this is hushed tones like it's an opinion that can only come from some totalitarian overlord, but all societies do it to some degree.
Notice what exceptions exist, however: those who post an immediate threat or danger.

In fact, it's the abhorrent views that need protection, not the popular ones.
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Old 8th July 2019, 09:37 AM   #531
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
So did Hitler. If only someone had stopped him before he rose to power.
I'm glad you bring it up. You know how their main opponents tried to stop Hitler and his party? Street violence. Didn't work out so well. In fact, it played right into the Nazis' hands.
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Old 8th July 2019, 09:51 AM   #532
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I'm glad you bring it up. You know how their main opponents tried to stop Hitler and his party? Street violence. Didn't work out so well. In fact, it played right into the Nazis' hands.
Not to mention that it wasn't even about stopping Nazism as it was about stopping the competition. The Communists failed in Germany, but succeeded elsewhere, with results just as bad.

I don't want to live in a society where "antifa" gets to decide politics via street violence.

---

I don't want to live in a society where Nazis get to decide politics via street violence, either. But we all seem to agree on that point already. The problem - specifically, in this thread - is that some people still think political violence is okay, as long as it's not "Nazis" who are doing it.
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Old 8th July 2019, 11:46 AM   #533
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
Honor killings, subjugating women, mutilating genitalia, homophobia, hell, even human sacrifice must be celebrated in a multicultural utiopia. Only small minded bigots would disagree.
Those are all conservative values.
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Old 8th July 2019, 11:52 AM   #534
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Until this thread, I didn’t think that violence was widely seen as an acceptable response to speech.



Bunch of violent authoritarians on this forum
Then you don't know much about Nazis. They have always used violence to silence those they don't want to have speech.
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Old 8th July 2019, 12:00 PM   #535
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Then you don't know much about Nazis. They have always used violence to silence those they don't want to have speech.
Nazism is a widely-accepted ideology? News to me.
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Old 8th July 2019, 12:09 PM   #536
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
In fact, it's the abhorrent views that need protection, not the popular ones.

Well, no, it's the unpopular views that need protection. Advocating for mass murder of "undesirables" or child rape are, or at least should be, beyond the pale in any truly civilized society. Advocating for or inciting harm should not be tolerated any more than causing harm.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I'm glad you bring it up. You know how their main opponents tried to stop Hitler and his party? Street violence. Didn't work out so well. In fact, it played right into the Nazis' hands.

No, that's not quite how it worked. The brawls were not just between Nazis and communists, and no particular party had the upper hand prior to the Nazi gaining power. Further, Ernst Röhm's brownshirts did not limit their violence to communists, but also attacked Jews, Romani, and trade unionists, none of whom were actively involved in street fighting. The Nazis were even less popular with the public than the communists were.

And far from turning people off, the communists were gaining power in the German federal government, and popularity with German workers. Which is why the hard-right-leaning Hindenburg appointed the minority Nazi party's head, Adolph Hitler, as chancellor; in order to form a majority bloc to opposed the communists.

Even that wasn't enough to stem the growing communist popularity. It took the engineering of the Reichstag fire and manufacturing of a communist scapegoat to convince Hindenburg to suspend civil rights and order a mass-arrest of communists and other undesirables.

Again, it wasn't street fighting, but the growing popularity of the communists and their political presence in the German parliament, that was the reason for Hindenburg to engineer the Nazi party's rise to power.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Not to mention that it wasn't even about stopping Nazism as it was about stopping the competition. The Communists failed in Germany, but succeeded elsewhere, with results just as bad.

I don't want to live in a society where "antifa" gets to decide politics via street violence.

---

I don't want to live in a society where Nazis get to decide politics via street violence, either. But we all seem to agree on that point already. The problem - specifically, in this thread - is that some people still think political violence is okay, as long as it's not "Nazis" who are doing it.

Question, are you a strict pacifist? If not, then you accept that some political violence is justified.

As for deciding politics by street violence, we already live in such a society. That's the problem. Fascists and white nationalists have been getting away with advocating and committing street violence for quite some time now, and the federal government has strongly indicated that they do not intend to do anything about the problem, to the point of purging terrorism lists of white supremacist organizations.

If it wasn't for the government condoning, tacitly or openly, the activities of these fascist white nationalist groups, defensive direct action against them wouldn't be needed.
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Old 8th July 2019, 12:10 PM   #537
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Antifa in Berkeley and Portland have a lot in common with the early days of Mussolini's blackshirts (copied by Hitler with his brownshirts). If they don't know this, it just means they're uneducated or stupid or both. I'm going with "both".
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Old 8th July 2019, 12:19 PM   #538
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Well, no, it's the unpopular views that need protection.
No, Belz is right. It's unpopular to say Nickelback is a great band, but nobody really cares. It's abhorent to say that transwomen are not women, or that transwomen are women, or that abortion is murder, or that abortion is a fundamental right, etc. There is no objective measure of what's abhorent, and not everything is abhorent to everyone. But it's the views that somebody finds abhorent which they try to ban.

Quote:
Advocating for or inciting harm should not be tolerated any more than causing harm.
Inciting illegal action is already illegal. And "harm" is too vague a term to have any use here. Some people claim harm from statements that reasonable people don't consider harmful. Some forms of harm are perfectly acceptable. Lose a subsidy on your Prius because of tax reform? That's harm. Your taxes were raised to pay for someon'e Prius tax credit? That's harm. We don't need to keep people from advocating for these things.
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Old 8th July 2019, 12:22 PM   #539
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Well, no, it's the unpopular views that need protection.
Well, abhorrent views tend to be unpopular.

Quote:
Advocating for mass murder of "undesirables" or child rape are, or at least should be, beyond the pale in any truly civilized society.
Good news: it is. But beyond the pale and illegal are different things. Nazis are already pariahs pretty much everywhere, for good reason. My concern is interpreting edgelords and hard-right folks are Nazis just to make it easier to lump them up with the actual monsters and justify violence against them.

Also, views are not actions. I don't think the former should be illegal, ever.

Quote:
No, that's not quite how it worked. The brawls were not just between Nazis and communists, and no particular party had the upper hand prior to the Nazi gaining power.
I said nothing about it being just between these two, so I don't know what argument you think you're addressing. As for the rest, assuming you're correct, it makes all of the other arguments irrelevant as well, don't you think? If the Nazi's rise to power was a ploy to counter the growing power of the communists, then it has nothing to do with their ideology not being met with violence, rather than said violence being ineffective.
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Old 8th July 2019, 12:23 PM   #540
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Nazism is a widely-accepted ideology? News to me.
Isn't it? It certainly extends across the pond, and I'd dare to say it's global.

On a vague internet search I got numbers between 11-24 million Americans have "alt-right" beliefs. If there are more people globally, we can even say that many for the rest of the entire globe. It would be in the 20-50 million people range. That's quite a few.

Depends on your definition of "accepted". I would say, yes, though. It is a widely-accepted ideology. Getting to be more that way as of lately.
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Old 8th July 2019, 12:51 PM   #541
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Then you don't know much about Nazis. They have always used violence to silence those they don't want to have speech.
Pathetic attempts at whataboutism are not impressive.

“But mum, nazis are doing it too!”
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Old 8th July 2019, 01:10 PM   #542
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Isn't it?
No, it absolutely isn't, in any way, shape or form, by any definition, anywhere.

Quote:
On a vague internet search I got numbers between 11-24 million Americans have "alt-right" beliefs. If there are more people globally, we can even say that many for the rest of the entire globe. It would be in the 20-50 million people range. That's quite a few.
"Nazis".
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Old 8th July 2019, 02:00 PM   #543
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I am pretty much a progressive lefty, I disagree with violent attacks against Nazi or nazis, if they are breaking the law, report them.

I think most of the alleged antifa are anarchists just trying to mix it up and stir the pot.

The way to beat nazis is to not brawl on the streets but beat them in politics and power,
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Old 8th July 2019, 02:20 PM   #544
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Well, no, it's the unpopular views that need protection. Advocating for mass murder of "undesirables" or child rape are, or at least should be, beyond the pale in any truly civilized society. Advocating for or inciting harm should not be tolerated any more than causing harm.
"Beyond the pale" sounds good, but what do you mean by it? And how do you intend for a "truly civilized society" to enforce it?
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Old 8th July 2019, 02:21 PM   #545
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
On a vague internet search I got numbers between 11-24 million Americans have "alt-right" beliefs.
I would like to have a respectful debate about the credibility and seriousness of of your research methodology, but I have no idea where to begin. Please help.
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Old 8th July 2019, 02:46 PM   #546
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I would like to have a respectful debate about the credibility and seriousness of of your research methodology, but I have no idea where to begin. Please help.
I found this, though I'm not making any absolute claims about its soundness. I'm multi-tasking again!

http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2018/...t-beliefs.html

I also had this link bookmarked from last year - https://ifstudies.org/blog/the-demog...-the-alt-right. I believe I had sent it to my father in an attempt to get him to understand my concerns about the social fabric in America. He tends to respond to the rants I send him with statements like, "You're talking about, like, ten people. Worry about something real. Is your apartment in an orderly state?"
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Old 8th July 2019, 02:58 PM   #547
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I would like to have a respectful debate about the credibility and seriousness of of your research methodology, but I have no idea where to begin. Please help.
Pretty much just googled "People identify as Nazis". Like I said, pretty vague. Skimmed a few of the articles, took the data with a grain of salt, and that's what I came up with! I don't know that I'm head over heels about any of the sources but it seems like a mixed enough bag to come up with generalities.
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Old 8th July 2019, 04:25 PM   #548
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Then you don't know much about Nazis SJW'S. They have always used violence to silence those they don't want to have speech.

FTFY
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Old 8th July 2019, 05:09 PM   #549
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Pretty much just googled "People identify as Nazis".
And you think anyone who identifies as alt-right qualifies?
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Old 8th July 2019, 05:35 PM   #550
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
FTFY
Ah, the ever popular, I know you are but what am I argument. Tee Hee! You sure got 'em, Beavis!
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It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable.
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Old 8th July 2019, 05:36 PM   #551
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
And you think anyone who identifies as alt-right qualifies?
And you don't?
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It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable.
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Old 9th July 2019, 12:45 AM   #552
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Pathetic attempts at whataboutism are not impressive.



“But mum, nazis are doing it too!”
I was responding to your post about Nazis...
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Old 9th July 2019, 12:47 AM   #553
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
knock the hell out of that straw man
It's exactly what people here have been effectively arguing for *years* about not just antifa, but also Black Lives Matter.
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Old 9th July 2019, 12:47 AM   #554
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
FTFY
They may well have done, but it would seem slightly contrary to the way many seem to use the term SJW to label those they disagree with.
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Old 9th July 2019, 01:04 AM   #555
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I just don't like mob rule. Nip it in the bud. Better the bad guy gets isolated from the rest of society and punished lightly than giving lynch mobs free reign to do whatever to whoever. **** that.
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Old 9th July 2019, 01:30 AM   #556
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
And you think anyone who identifies as alt-right qualifies?
That's what the label means. If one IDs onesself as "Alt-Right" and doesn't mean "Wants to turn the US into a white ethnostate", then you're like me self-Identifying as "a Black Israelite". Can't blame other people if you misidentify yourself.
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Old 9th July 2019, 01:35 AM   #557
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
The solution is not to abandon all hope for peaceful protest. Public pressure is being put on these departments. Charlottesville did very poorly on the day, but in the aftermath was shamed into acting appropriately. Those goons that beat Harris in the parking garage were identified, arrested, and prosecuted, though initially it seemed they might escape all justice due to disinterest by the police. Chris "the crying Nazi" Cantwell plead guilty and was banished from the state for 5 years. Four white supremacists were charged with rioting. The KKK man who discharged a firearm was arrested aand sentenced to 4 years prison. All of these things occurred, despite the original inclination of the police to do nothing (or, in the case of Harris, to pursue the victims). Public pressure works.
"Public Pressure." No. The guys who beat DeAndre Harris into the hospital? It was antifa that did the work identifying them, and then pushed a reluctant police force into having them brought in - they had long since dispersed to other states.
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Old 9th July 2019, 02:06 AM   #558
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
For the sake of sanity, compare Washington DC, whose police haven't totally abdicated their duty, to Portland.

Alt-right and antifa both showed up this weekend for a very charged protest/counterprotest, much like those in Portland. Except the police didn't let them roam the streets beating the snot out of eachother and bystanders.

Project Europa, noted white-supremacist group, made absolute fools out of themselves by screeching on stage how they got kicked off of Tinder. https://twitter.com/AlexThomasDC/sta...29517902245888
Also present:

Gavin McGinnis (Why hasn't he been deported yet?), who openly encouraged violence

Laura Loomer, who said that antifa was preparing to throw acid-filled balloons in people's faces,

Milo the child rapist enabler, who...eh, who cares?

and Joey Salads, who claimed he would stand behind Dolt 45 in Congress. My guess is that video he posted of himself pissing into his own mouth will greatly hinder his campaign.

Remember, this was a "Defend Free Speech" rally.

Quote:
Antifa knocked over a newsstand.

As far as I can tell, nobody got their skull cracked for daring to take a photo.
Yes, the local anarchists were breaking things and acting like fools, just as they did during Dolt 45's inaguration - when DC police came by later and rounded up/charged everyone in the area, including credentialed journalists. Since they had no evidence against anyone they arrested, nobody was ever convicted. DC police have learned since then.

BLM DC was there with their own setup discussing how to fight fascism worldwide before violence becomes necessary. All Out DC had a DJ setup with people dancing. And lots of folks were just there to show solidarity.

However!

When one of the Proud Boys rushed up and punched a nonviolent antifa protestor, the cops arrested...the Antifa guy. And at least one cop was photoed giving dap to another Proud Boy.

So don't give them too much credit.

Last edited by Mumbles; 9th July 2019 at 02:07 AM.
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Old 9th July 2019, 02:12 AM   #559
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
And you don't?
I'd have been more much willing to answer if you had answered mine first.

You know, as both a way to show that you're actually interested in discussion, and also to show how that you know what a Nazi is, potentially setting theprestige up for another around of '"Nazis."'
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Old 9th July 2019, 02:14 AM   #560
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
That's what the label means. If one IDs onesself as "Alt-Right" and doesn't mean "Wants to turn the US into a white ethnostate", then you're like me self-Identifying as "a Black Israelite". Can't blame other people if you misidentify yourself.
You really should check your definitions. You can't just twist them around like this and expect to be taken seriously.
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