ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 9th July 2019, 03:04 AM   #561
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 47,493
Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
It's exactly what people here have been effectively arguing for *years* about not just antifa, but also Black Lives Matter.
A violent terrorist organization that people advocate driving their cars into such violent protests. That is of course all ok.

Advocating driving your car into a peaceful protest is not in anyway encouraging violence and the like, while standing up to nazis is the worst thing someone can do. After all it was the driving into protestors that was getting laws proposed to make it all legal and protect the drivers from litigation.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

Last edited by ponderingturtle; 9th July 2019 at 03:05 AM.
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th July 2019, 04:24 AM   #562
SuburbanTurkey
Graduate Poster
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Boston, USA
Posts: 1,884
Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Also present:

Gavin McGinnis (Why hasn't he been deported yet?), who openly encouraged violence

Laura Loomer, who said that antifa was preparing to throw acid-filled balloons in people's faces,

Milo the child rapist enabler, who...eh, who cares?

and Joey Salads, who claimed he would stand behind Dolt 45 in Congress. My guess is that video he posted of himself pissing into his own mouth will greatly hinder his campaign.

Remember, this was a "Defend Free Speech" rally.



Yes, the local anarchists were breaking things and acting like fools, just as they did during Dolt 45's inaguration - when DC police came by later and rounded up/charged everyone in the area, including credentialed journalists. Since they had no evidence against anyone they arrested, nobody was ever convicted. DC police have learned since then.

BLM DC was there with their own setup discussing how to fight fascism worldwide before violence becomes necessary. All Out DC had a DJ setup with people dancing. And lots of folks were just there to show solidarity.

However!

When one of the Proud Boys rushed up and punched a nonviolent antifa protestor, the cops arrested...the Antifa guy. And at least one cop was photoed giving dap to another Proud Boy.

So don't give them too much credit.
No city has a perfect, or even mostly good, record here. Sure.

Let's not compare these cities against some ideal, let's compare them against eachother.

All things considered, which city do you think is taking the right approach here? If you were mayor of some unidentified city that was facing similar protests in the near future, which tactic would you take?

You have the Portland "hands off, let them fight" tactics that has resulted in Portland being an antifa-altright thunderdome.

You have other cities, like DC, who make sure to physically separate these would be combatants, allow permitted displays to occur (including those by right wing undesirables), and mostly maintain a level of peace.

Which, in your mind, is the better and why?
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th July 2019, 05:10 AM   #563
Mycroft
High Priest of Ed
 
Mycroft's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,605
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Nah, you're thinking of the American prison system. In the Gulag system, though forced to do labour, inmates were paid the same wages as other workers. Besides, if it were just a place for reaping the benefits of slave labour then you'd sentence your inmates to more than on average 4 years, you'd at least sentence them to more than 5 years, like the American liberal democracy does.
You make gulags sound so awesome!

Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
ETA: Have you noticed that the high mortality rates you refer to are either during a devastating nation-wide famine (1933) or during the devastation of the second world war?
When the famine is caused by (or exacerbated by) the communist government, it still counts as the communists killing people. Especially when the famine is sorta on purpose to subdue a population that isn't getting with the program.

Last edited by Mycroft; 9th July 2019 at 05:19 AM.
Mycroft is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th July 2019, 06:24 AM   #564
plague311
Great minds think...
 
plague311's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 6,384
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
And you think anyone who identifies as alt-right qualifies?
Uh, yeah. By wiki definition:

Quote:
The alt-right, an abbreviation of alternative right, is a loosely connected far-right, white nationalist movement based in the United States.
White nationalism is just a watered down version of Nazism from every angle I've viewed it from. It appears to be accepted given the amount of people who admit to holding similar beliefs. Sure, we can nitpick this down more if you want, but I don't have a whole lot of skin in this game. If you don't believe it, fine. Don't. I was asked a question and I gave a response.
__________________
"Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher

“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss
plague311 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th July 2019, 06:29 AM   #565
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 84,543
Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Uh, yeah. By wiki definition:

(...)

White nationalism is just a watered down version of Nazism from every angle I've viewed it from.
Yeah, in other words it's not Nazism. It's just convenient for you to call it as such.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th July 2019, 06:34 AM   #566
Mumbles
Philosopher
 
Mumbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 7,136
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
You really should check your definitions. You can't just twist them around like this and expect to be taken seriously.
I know exactly what it is, who coined the term, the year it was coined, and the explicitly stated goal of the person who coined it.

I stand by what I said.
Mumbles is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th July 2019, 06:44 AM   #567
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 84,543
Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
I know exactly what it is, who coined the term, the year it was coined, and the explicitly stated goal of the person who coined it.

I stand by what I said.
Of course you do. As several have pointed out here and elsewhere, there's end to how wide some'll cast a net labelled "Nazis".
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th July 2019, 06:57 AM   #568
plague311
Great minds think...
 
plague311's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 6,384
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Yeah, in other words it's not Nazism. It's just convenient for you to call it as such.
Neat.
__________________
"Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher

“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss
plague311 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th July 2019, 06:59 AM   #569
plague311
Great minds think...
 
plague311's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 6,384
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Of course you do. As several have pointed out here and elsewhere, there's end to how wide some'll cast a net labelled "Nazis".
...but for the record. The question was is the ideology widely held. The beliefs between white nationalism and Nazism are extremely similar. In fact, they are way more ******* similar than they are different. I never claimed alt-right people were Nazi's because that wasn't the question.

You seem to be arguing a point no one is making.
__________________
"Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher

“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss
plague311 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th July 2019, 07:00 AM   #570
luchog
Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist
 
luchog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: The Emerald City
Posts: 15,864
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Yeah, in other words it's not Nazism. It's just convenient for you to call it as such.

Well, yes, it is Nazism, and a whole lot of other, similar things. The coiner of the term "alt.right", Richard Spencer, is himself one of the most prominent neo-Nazi leaders in the US.

"Alt.right" is a catchall term for any far-right, fascist, white supremacist organization or individual. Neo-Nazis, neo-Confederates, the KKK, Proud Boys, Identity Evrorpa, Ayran Nations, Stormfront, The Right Stuff, American Renaissance,, Atomwaffen Division, Hammerskins, ANP, League of the South, American Freedom Party, and any number of other, smaller groups and unaffiliated individuals who ascribe to fascist and white supremacist ideologies. Many of whom were represented at the Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville.

Not all alt.right people are Nazis, but all Nazis are alt.right; and there are far more and far stronger similarities between them, than there are differences.

That's why the term was coined, to bring together all of the disparate far-right extremists under one umbrella, sanitize their identity for the general public, and thereby increase their social presence and political power. Fortunately, it hasn't worked as well as Spencer had intended; particularly after Unite the Right helped to demonstrate the true, violent nature of these groups, and decreased their social capital somewhat. Not enough, but at least the cohesion was short-lived, which is a blessing. It's much easier to prevent a handful of smaller, disorganized groups from gaining power than it is to stop a single large, well-organized entity.
__________________
"All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others." -- Douglas Adams
"The absence of evidence might indeed not be evidence of absence, but it's a pretty good start." -- PhantomWolf
"Let's see the buggers figure that one out." - John Lennon

Last edited by luchog; 9th July 2019 at 07:03 AM.
luchog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th July 2019, 07:11 AM   #571
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 43,954
Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Not all alt.right people are Nazis
Then Belz is right and plague311 is wrong.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th July 2019, 07:15 AM   #572
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 47,493
Ah and we are back to exactly how broadly can we accurately call someone a nazi. Does allowing jews to remain after ethnically cleansing the country of all lesser races to make it the white ethnostate really fit with being a nazi or not.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th July 2019, 07:15 AM   #573
plague311
Great minds think...
 
plague311's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 6,384
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Then Belz is right and plague311 is wrong.
No, I'm not because as I carefully explained, I didn't claim alt-right were ******* Nazi's. How is this getting mixed up?

I was asked if the ideology is accepted, and I brought up my vague research. Google instantly paired alt-right and Nazism. Why? Because the beliefs are extremely similar. Way more so than they are different. What Luchog said is perfectly in line with what I claimed, and this pathetic nitpick is tiresome.

If you can't understand this basic point I'm making, after another explanation, then I don't know how to further help.
__________________
"Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher

“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss
plague311 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th July 2019, 07:17 AM   #574
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 47,493
Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
No, I'm not because as I carefully explained, I didn't claim alt-right were ******* Nazi's. How is this getting mixed up?

I was asked if the ideology is accepted, and I brought up my vague research. Google instantly paired alt-right and Nazism. Why? Because the beliefs are extremely similar. Way more so than they are different. Want Luchog said is perfectly inline with what I claimed, and this pathetic nitpick is tiresome.

If you can't understand this basic point I'm making, after another explanation, then I don't know how to further help.
Look if you fine any reason to differentiate it is enough to not class them as the same. Like it is wrong to call any church that goes against the bible and ordains women as christian.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th July 2019, 07:18 AM   #575
luchog
Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist
 
luchog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: The Emerald City
Posts: 15,864
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Then Belz is right and plague311 is wrong.

Only if you're not paying attention to what anyone is actually saying, and can't see past your own straw men.
__________________
"All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others." -- Douglas Adams
"The absence of evidence might indeed not be evidence of absence, but it's a pretty good start." -- PhantomWolf
"Let's see the buggers figure that one out." - John Lennon
luchog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th July 2019, 07:23 AM   #576
plague311
Great minds think...
 
plague311's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 6,384
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Look if you fine any reason to differentiate it is enough to not class them as the same. Like it is wrong to call any church that goes against the bible and ordains women as christian.
We make this claim regularly without it being argued so much.

It's the same claim as "Not all Trump supporters are racist", which is true. The phrase "All racists are Trump supporters", can also be true. Whether I know if it is or not, it's certainly more accurate given everything we know.

Like Luchog said, not all alt-right are Nazi's, but by definition all Nazi's are alt-right.
__________________
"Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher

“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss
plague311 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th July 2019, 07:38 AM   #577
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 47,493
Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
We make this claim regularly without it being argued so much.

It's the same claim as "Not all Trump supporters are racist", which is true. The phrase "All racists are Trump supporters", can also be true. Whether I know if it is or not, it's certainly more accurate given everything we know.

Like Luchog said, not all alt-right are Nazi's, but by definition all Nazi's are alt-right.
All Trump supporters support a white supremacist but pointing that out is right out. I mean you can't just right off all ethnonationalists as white supremacists after all. You have to use the politically correct terms for them, they will be horribly triggered if you use the accurate terms after all.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th July 2019, 07:44 AM   #578
Foolmewunz
Grammar Resistance Leader
TLA Dictator
 
Foolmewunz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Pattaya, Thailand
Posts: 41,264
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I'd have been more much willing to answer if you had answered mine first.

You know, as both a way to show that you're actually interested in discussion, and also to show how that you know what a Nazi is, potentially setting theprestige up for another around of '"Nazis."'
Implicity, obviously, in my question, is my response. The discussion was about how one would search for the X million people who identify with the alt-right. Plague311 said he did a vague internet search. When further queried he said he looked for "people who identify with nazis" or something similar.

YOU jumped on the word "nazi". The rest of us were still talking about how to count/identify the alt-right.

Now, as to whether those are Alt-Right or merely alt-right, we have yet to determine, but the self-anointed definition of alt-right is some combination of "white supremacist, white nationalist.... even nazi supporting or nazism espousing...."

You don't want to admit that? That was my question. It was pretty obvious by the question that I so identify the alt-right.
__________________
Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele

It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable.
Foolmewunz is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th July 2019, 07:49 AM   #579
Mumbles
Philosopher
 
Mumbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 7,136
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Ah and we are back to exactly how broadly can we accurately call someone a nazi. Does allowing jews to remain after ethnically cleansing the country of all lesser races to make it the white ethnostate really fit with being a nazi or not.
Apparently those guys have never heard of Lenny Kravitz or Lisa Bonet...
Mumbles is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th July 2019, 08:07 AM   #580
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 43,954
Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I was asked if the ideology is accepted, and I brought up my vague research. Google instantly paired alt-right and Nazism. Why? Because the beliefs are extremely similar.
That's... not how Google works.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th July 2019, 08:17 AM   #581
plague311
Great minds think...
 
plague311's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 6,384
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That's... not how Google works.
It's a keyword search. If it locates the word inside of those articles, etc. then it associates the keyword with the article. It so happens that my search criteria that included Nazi's brought up a ton of alt-right articles. Further proving my point. I didn't feel I needed to explain how ******* google searches work, but when you guys don't have **** to fall back on then you have to dick around with dumb **** like this.

I'm a network administrator by trade, and I can explain how each packet traverses the network and **** too. How specific do you want it? Christ.
__________________
"Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher

“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss
plague311 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th July 2019, 08:24 AM   #582
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 37,222
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
You missed 5) nazis have made a detrimental impact on US political discourse by normalizing violence as an acceptable response to speech.

One is a potential, one has happened.
Antifa had already normalized violence as an acceptable response to speech, in Berkeley, a year or more before Charlottesville.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th July 2019, 08:25 AM   #583
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 43,954
Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
It's a keyword search. If it locates the word inside of those articles, etc. then it associates the keyword with the article.
Which doesn't make those associations true, it just makes them common. Like "moon landing" and "hoax" show up together a lot. If lots of people call the alt right "nazis", then google will associate them, regardless of whether that accusation is true. So google making that association doesn't prove it's true, it only proves that lots of people make the claim. Do you understand the difference?

Quote:
I didn't feel I needed to explain how ******* google searches work
Or apparently to understand it either.

Quote:
I'm a network administrator by trade, and I can explain how each packet traverses the network and **** too. How specific do you want it? Christ.
And yet, you failed spectacularly at understanding what those packets actually mean. I suppose you don't have to in order to do your job, though. As long as the packets get where they're supposed to go, you've succeeded, you're not in charge of making them make any sense. Garbage in, garbage out.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th July 2019, 08:35 AM   #584
plague311
Great minds think...
 
plague311's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 6,384
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Which doesn't make those associations true, it just makes them common. Like "moon landing" and "hoax" show up together a lot. If lots of people call the alt right "nazis", then google will associate them, regardless of whether that accusation is true. So google making that association doesn't prove it's true, it only proves that lots of people make the claim. Do you understand the difference?
Seriously? What ******* relevance does any of this have to do with anything that I said? Again, I explained the god damned association in the post. This is some ridiculous nitpicking, even for here.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Or apparently to understand it either.
I have a degree and certifications that say differently. Again, I didn't see the ******* relevance any of this has so I have no need to explain it in depth. This is just you trying to "win" any argument you can so we're veering off into this nonsensical argument about keyword searches and packets like it means **** all. You're changing the subject because you can't address the actual content or claims that I made. It's transparent.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
And yet, you failed spectacularly at understanding what those packets actually mean. I suppose you don't have to in order to do your job, though. As long as the packets get where they're supposed to go, you've succeeded, you're not in charge of making them make any sense. Garbage in, garbage out.
That would be neat if any of it were true, but I get it. You have to find a way to try and make me look stupid in order for you to feel better about yourself. If you want me to hand you your ass in networking then start a thread. Until then, this is a red herring, and a ******* dumb one at that.
__________________
"Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher

“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss
plague311 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th July 2019, 08:37 AM   #585
Mumbles
Philosopher
 
Mumbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 7,136
Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Only if you're not paying attention to what anyone is actually saying, and can't see past your own straw men.
A timeline.

2012: "Uh, there's this guy named Richard Spencer trying to get all the violent white nationalist groups to work together..."

Them: "Oh, he's just one guy."

2013: "So this site called 4chan is making fake black feminists to get people worked up. Here's a list of them..."

them: "Quiet! I'm fighting against #endfathersday. Damn those SJWs."

2014: "Um, Remember that Richard Spencer? Breitbart is using the internet to influence Gamergaters and the like."

: "Gamers? They're just nerds in their mother's basement."

2015: "Guys, all those groups we've been warning you about are workingg together and rallying behind Trump because he's saying so many racist things."

them: "Huh? Those are just memes, why are you worried."

2016: "Guys! Their president is in office! Pay attention!
They're talking about taking to the streets and killing people!"

them: "Checks and balances. Plus, those damn SJWs are still worse, they're getting people banned from Facebook.*"

2017, Charolettesville, them: "OH MY GOD THIS IS TERRIBLE HOW WERE THERE NO WARNING SIGNS!"

"...are you serious right now?"

*: actual discussion on this board. But you knew that one, luchog.

(and if you were on the side that SJWs were worse or as bad as the alt-right...just stop talking and listen to the people who were right all along.)

Last edited by Mumbles; 9th July 2019 at 08:40 AM.
Mumbles is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th July 2019, 08:39 AM   #586
bluesjnr
Professional Nemesis for Hire
 
bluesjnr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Not where I should be.
Posts: 6,616
Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
It's a keyword search. If it locates the word inside of those articles, etc. then it associates the keyword with the article. It so happens that my search criteria that included Nazi's brought up a ton of alt-right articles. Further proving my point. I didn't feel I needed to explain how ******* google searches work, but when you guys don't have **** to fall back on then you have to dick around with dumb **** like this.

I'm a network administrator by trade, and I can explain how each packet traverses the network and **** too. How specific do you want it? Christ.
"you guys"?
bluesjnr is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th July 2019, 08:42 AM   #587
plague311
Great minds think...
 
plague311's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 6,384
Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
"you guys"?
Yes, it implies more than one person. As in, Belz... nit picking over the association I wasn't making (that I claimed alt-right and Nazi's are the same, when I wasn't), and Zigg bringing up internet keyword searches and networking.

Any other hands that need to be held?
__________________
"Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher

“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss
plague311 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th July 2019, 08:50 AM   #588
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 43,954
Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Seriously? What ******* relevance does any of this have to do with anything that I said? Again, I explained the god damned association in the post.
You think the association means something more than it actually means. It's basically the correlation/causation problem. The association between "nazi" and "alt right" in google search results is a correlation. You've assumed a particular causation for that correlation, but haven't actually demonstrated it.

Quote:
I have a degree and certifications that say differently.
I seriously doubt that your degree says you understand correlation/causation distinctions. And if it does, you should ask for a refund.

Quote:
That would be neat if any of it were true, but I get it. You have to find a way to try and make me look stupid in order for you to feel better about yourself.
It appears I don't have to try. Why is it people always whip out their degrees to defend themselves when they're making fools out of themselves?

Quote:
If you want me to hand you your ass in networking then start a thread.
I'm quite willing to assume you know far more about networks than I do. But this isn't a network problem. It's a logic problem. Your failure to see that is yet another irony here.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th July 2019, 08:52 AM   #589
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 43,954
Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Yes, it implies more than one person. As in, Belz... nit picking over the association I wasn't making (that I claimed alt-right and Nazi's are the same, when I wasn't), and Zigg bringing up internet keyword searches and networking.

Any other hands that need to be held?
You brought up both internet keyword searches and networking, not me.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th July 2019, 08:57 AM   #590
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 84,543
Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
The beliefs between white nationalism and Nazism are extremely similar. In fact, they are way more ******* similar than they are different.
Based on what? I mean, in the end it's going to be your interpretation.

Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Well, yes, it is Nazism, and a whole lot of other, similar things. The coiner of the term "alt.right", Richard Spencer, is himself one of the most prominent neo-Nazi leaders in the US.

"Alt.right" is a catchall term for any far-right, fascist, white supremacist organization or individual. Neo-Nazis, neo-Confederates, the KKK, Proud Boys, Identity Evrorpa, Ayran Nations, Stormfront, The Right Stuff, American Renaissance,, Atomwaffen Division, Hammerskins, ANP, League of the South, American Freedom Party, and any number of other, smaller groups and unaffiliated individuals who ascribe to fascist and white supremacist ideologies. Many of whom were represented at the Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville.

Not all alt.right people are Nazis, but all Nazis are alt.right; and there are far more and far stronger similarities between them, than there are differences.

That's why the term was coined, to bring together all of the disparate far-right extremists under one umbrella, sanitize their identity for the general public, and thereby increase their social presence and political power. Fortunately, it hasn't worked as well as Spencer had intended; particularly after Unite the Right helped to demonstrate the true, violent nature of these groups, and decreased their social capital somewhat. Not enough, but at least the cohesion was short-lived, which is a blessing. It's much easier to prevent a handful of smaller, disorganized groups from gaining power than it is to stop a single large, well-organized entity.
I'm not sure you realised, but you proved my point.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th July 2019, 08:58 AM   #591
plague311
Great minds think...
 
plague311's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 6,384
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You think the association means something more than it actually means. It's basically the correlation/causation problem. The association between "nazi" and "alt right" in google search results is a correlation. You've assumed a particular causation for that correlation, but haven't actually demonstrated it.
At least pretend like you've kept up with the thread. I was asked if the ideology is widely accepted. I did that basic internet search that brought numbers and surveys that asked people if they associate or condone alt-right held beliefs. I then stated, without any internet search, that alt-right and Nazi's hold many of the same beliefs as confirmed by the way they identify themselves. This is easily found. I don't know what the **** you're talking about here, I'm assuming it's another strawman.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I seriously doubt that your degree says you understand correlation/causation distinctions. And if it does, you should ask for a refund.
Teehee you really showed me *giggles*

Was your goal to ensure everyone here knows you can't read for comprehension? If it was, congrats.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
It appears I don't have to try. Why is it people always whip out their degrees to defend themselves when they're making fools out of themselves?
I didn't see you pull out your degree, since I'm not the one making a fool of myself. You're the one devolving this conversation into completely off topic nonsense to try and stroke your ego.

These are trump style debate tactics. You're be....nm

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I'm quite willing to assume you know far more about networks than I do. But this isn't a network problem. It's a logic problem. Your failure to see that is yet another irony here.
No, it's not. My point is and has been that this shouldn't be about networking at all. Also, you started this by saying "that's not how google works" as if at any point in time I tried to illustrate or explain how it works in the slightest.

I can't wait to see where this goes next.

ETA: Everyone seemed to understand what I was saying until you came around some hours later trying to bicker about the methods of Google.
__________________
"Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher

“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss

Last edited by plague311; 9th July 2019 at 09:03 AM.
plague311 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th July 2019, 09:01 AM   #592
plague311
Great minds think...
 
plague311's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 6,384
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Based on what? I mean, in the end it's going to be your interpretation.
Based on the ******* people at the "Unite the Right" rally wearing swastikaz and Nazi uniforms. Based on their stated beliefs on their respective propaganda. Based on their actions over the last x amount of years.

Are you implying that those that belong to the alt-right do not hold, largely, the same beliefs as Nazi's?

**** I hate when people can't just say what they're getting at and do this fishing expedition nonsense until they get to a point where some "gotcha" can be employed. Just say what you're getting at.
__________________
"Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher

“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss
plague311 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th July 2019, 09:03 AM   #593
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 84,543
Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
No, I'm not because as I carefully explained, I didn't claim alt-right were ******* Nazi's. How is this getting mixed up?

I was asked if the ideology is accepted
The NAZI ideology, not the wider net you cast deliberately. I'm aware that white nationalism is way too prevalent, but that isn't Nazism.

Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Implicity, obviously, in my question, is my response. The discussion was about how one would search for the X million people who identify with the alt-right.
It absolutely wasn't, but it's increasingly clear that you and others don't know the difference.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Which doesn't make those associations true, it just makes them common. Like "moon landing" and "hoax" show up together a lot. If lots of people call the alt right "nazis", then google will associate them, regardless of whether that accusation is true.
That reminds me of a "discussion" I had with some asshat on the IMDB boards before they were shut down. He insisted that his view that movie X was bad was based on objective truth because the "best" reviews on the site agreed with him. He thought "best" meant just that -- that those were the most accurate reviews, rather than just the ones that got upvoted the most.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th July 2019, 09:04 AM   #594
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 43,954
Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I didn't see you pull out your degree.
EXACTLY. I don't pull it out even in threads that are entirely on the subject of my degree. Because no one cares.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th July 2019, 09:04 AM   #595
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 84,543
Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
A timeline.

2012: "Uh, there's this guy named Richard Spencer trying to get all the violent white nationalist groups to work together..."

Them: "Oh, he's just one guy."

2013: "So this site called 4chan is making fake black feminists to get people worked up. Here's a list of them..."

them: "Quiet! I'm fighting against #endfathersday. Damn those SJWs."

2014: "Um, Remember that Richard Spencer? Breitbart is using the internet to influence Gamergaters and the like."

: "Gamers? They're just nerds in their mother's basement."

2015: "Guys, all those groups we've been warning you about are workingg together and rallying behind Trump because he's saying so many racist things."

them: "Huh? Those are just memes, why are you worried."

2016: "Guys! Their president is in office! Pay attention!
They're talking about taking to the streets and killing people!"

them: "Checks and balances. Plus, those damn SJWs are still worse, they're getting people banned from Facebook.*"

2017, Charolettesville, them: "OH MY GOD THIS IS TERRIBLE HOW WERE THERE NO WARNING SIGNS!"

"...are you serious right now?"

*: actual discussion on this board. But you knew that one, luchog.

(and if you were on the side that SJWs were worse or as bad as the alt-right...just stop talking and listen to the people who were right all along.)
The above really shows how easy it is to win an argument when you control both sides of the discussion.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th July 2019, 09:06 AM   #596
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 84,543
Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Yes, it implies more than one person. As in, Belz... nit picking over the association I wasn't making (that I claimed alt-right and Nazi's are the same, when I wasn't)
You've repeatedly implied that they are either one and the same, or that the distinction doesn't matter. Hell, even right here you call it nit picking.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th July 2019, 09:07 AM   #597
plague311
Great minds think...
 
plague311's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 6,384
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
The NAZI ideology, not the wider net you cast deliberately. I'm aware that white nationalism is way too prevalent, but that isn't Nazism.
For the 500th time. Their beliefs are largely the same.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
That reminds me of a "discussion" I had with some asshat on the IMDB boards before they were shut down. He insisted that his view that movie X was bad was based on objective truth because the "best" reviews on the site agreed with him. He thought "best" meant just that -- that those were the most accurate reviews, rather than just the ones that got upvoted the most.
Now if only I had done that. Except I didn't say my information was the best, did I? theprestige asked me where I got my information, because the only thing I claimed were the numbers shown in my search from the few articles I read over that did surveys inquiring as to how many people believe or side with alt-right held beliefs.
__________________
"Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher

“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss
plague311 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th July 2019, 09:09 AM   #598
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 84,543
Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Based on the ******* people at the "Unite the Right" rally wearing swastikaz and Nazi uniforms.
You just told me that the unite the right rally included Nazis AND other groups. So clearly you can't use the larger number as telling of how many of the smaller group there is.

This is basic logic. You don't have a degree for that, do you?

Quote:
**** I hate when people can't just say what they're getting at and do this fishing expedition nonsense until they get to a point where some "gotcha" can be employed. Just say what you're getting at.
What I'm getting at is right there in the posts I write. There is no hidden punchline. I've said, quite clearly, that you're wrong to inflate Nazi numbers to bolster your unsupported claim.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th July 2019, 09:09 AM   #599
plague311
Great minds think...
 
plague311's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 6,384
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
You've repeatedly implied that they are either one and the same, or that the distinction doesn't matter. Hell, even right here you call it nit picking.
LoL this is getting insane.

Lets get back to the basics.

Do you agree or disagree that Nazism and those who identify as alt-right hold, largely, the same beliefs? i.e. white's are superior, anti-LGBTQ, anti-minorities, etc.

Once we get beyond this I think we'll get headed in the right direction.
__________________
"Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher

“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss
plague311 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th July 2019, 09:12 AM   #600
plague311
Great minds think...
 
plague311's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 6,384
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
You just told me that the unite the right rally included Nazis AND other groups. So clearly you can't use the larger number as telling of how many of the smaller group there is.

This is basic logic. You don't have a degree for that, do you?
The ******* Nazis and the other groups are being used as the larger number because the ******* ideology is, largely, the same. That's why they were all on the same "side". I get that they aren't exactly the same in every way, but the core tenants to each are based around white supremacy.

I did have to take logic, yes.
__________________
"Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher

“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss

Last edited by plague311; 9th July 2019 at 09:15 AM.
plague311 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:48 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.