ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 9th July 2019, 04:49 PM   #681
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 37,190
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
The ability of some people here to see evil only one one side of the political spectrum is truly astonishing.
When it comes to making people behave in stupid ways driven purely by emotion, religion has nothing on political ideology
Says the guy spamming antifa apologetics to the guy who rejects both violent extremes.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th July 2019, 07:36 PM   #682
Foolmewunz
Grammar Resistance Leader
TLA Dictator
 
Foolmewunz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Pattaya, Thailand
Posts: 41,250
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Either Ngo's a threat to civilization (warranting violent preprisals from vigilant antifascists) or he's a non-entity warranting nothing more than dismissal. Can't be both.
Since I said neither, we have yet another of your posts that is failing to make a point.
__________________
Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele

It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable.
Foolmewunz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th July 2019, 07:53 PM   #683
d4m10n
Illuminator
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 4,141
Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Since I said neither, we have yet another of your posts that is failing to make a point.
You called him a "non-entity," did you not?
__________________
I'm a happy SINner on the Skeptic Ink Network!
Background Probability: Against Irrationality, Innumeracy, and Ignobility
http://skepticink.com/backgroundprobability/
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th July 2019, 10:04 PM   #684
bluesjnr
Professional Nemesis for Hire
 
bluesjnr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Not where I should be.
Posts: 6,611
Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
...snip...You would think a rational person would be able to place blame on both without being a 'nazi sympathizer'.
They won't let it work like that. Stop thinking like a N(n)azi.
bluesjnr is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th July 2019, 10:22 PM   #685
Lambchops
Graduate Poster
 
Lambchops's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Norvegr
Posts: 1,369
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
What is amusing is that 90% of the advocates of violence here would turn tail and run away if they actually got caught up in a violent protest. Being a brave, heroic revolutionary is very easy from behind a computer keyboard.
It's a sort of Left Wing phony Machismo, no better then the similar crap on the right.
And I love the guy who thinks Every violent incident involving someone calling themselves Antifa is the result of an agent provocateur. Just another guy who thinks that the Right has a monopoly on political evil and stupidity.
Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.
__________________
Your grandchildren will be brown, trans, and Islamo-Communist.

Last edited by zooterkin; 10th July 2019 at 10:53 AM.
Lambchops is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th July 2019, 02:52 AM   #686
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 84,514
Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Ooo guilty by association, eh? Classy, classy.
Slightly ironic, don't you think?
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th July 2019, 02:58 AM   #687
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 84,514
Originally Posted by luchog View Post
What point? That the alt.right was founded by neo-Nazis and is still closely linked to them?
Where did you see me make that point?

Quote:
If not, then what flavours of fascists and white supremacists do you consider to be acceptable enough to sanitized the alt.right's image and reputation?
I can't make heads or tails of that sentence, so I can't respond.

Quote:
At this point, I'm not strictly sure what your point actually was
Even though I made that point a dozen times?

The point, which was very clear, is that alt-right <> Nazi. Lots of people may associate with those groups, but it doesn't make them members.

Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Antisemitism is almost universal amongst alt.right groups and individuals. Mind you, some of a more religious mindset support Israel, while still maintaining a (poorly disguised) hatred for or distrust of Jews.
That sounds contradictory.

Quote:
Nationalism is pretty much the definition of all groups under the alt.right umbrella.
Nationalisation, I said. Again, pay attention.

Quote:
Warmongering? This is a little more varied, but the majority, especially the religious nutcases, are perfectly happy to wage war against all they see as inferiour
Please show where they discuss war specifically.

Quote:
Eugenics. Well, what need be said about that, except that the Nazis got most of their ideas about eugenics from American eugenicists and their supporters.
Irrelevant.

Quote:
The overwhelming majority of alt.right ideologies believe in some form of eugenics, particularly those under the neo-Confederate banner, although the degree varies considerably.
Do you have specific examples?
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th July 2019, 03:00 AM   #688
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 84,514
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
You know, even if you decide to consider the set of neo-nazis distinct from the set of white nationalists, then it may very well be the case that the set of neo-nazis turns out to be more widespread than the set of white nationalists because of all the non-white neo-nazis (South American primarily, though also India has a significant number of them).
I guess, but I was more concerned about the US specifically.

Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
I'm going to assume you meant to say nationalism rather than nationalisation, because if not then you're going to be in for some fun when you find out how the term "privatization" (ie the opposite of nationalisation) even got coined in the first place.
I meant what I said.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th July 2019, 03:07 AM   #689
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 84,514
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Yeah, the lynch mob mentality is not confined to the right, as much as some people here would like to believe that.
In fact, some of the same people here demonstrate your point.

Originally Posted by luchog View Post
For someone who engages in so much whiny hand-wringing and pearl-clutching (snip)
Ouch, the irony!

Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post
Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.
Yeah, people who don't pick one of two sides and stick to it dogmatically are idiots, amirite?

Do you even know what a centrist is, I wonder?

Quote:
Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.
I'm not sure you understood what he meant by hiding behind a keyboard. But you needed to reply something.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward



Last edited by zooterkin; 10th July 2019 at 10:54 AM.
Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th July 2019, 03:09 AM   #690
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 47,477
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Yeah, the lynch mob mentality is not confined to the right, as much as some people here would like to believe that.
Exactly anyone who would counter protest a nazi march is by definition terrorist scum. They are antifa and so violent terrorists. Simple really.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th July 2019, 04:46 AM   #691
caveman1917
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 6,622
Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
Why is it most of the time someone posts an event to show the violence of the alt-right, it ends up showing mass violence from counter protesters as well? It seems each example points out the obvious, two groups come to fight and the inevitable happens.

You would think a rational person would be able to place blame on both without being a 'nazi sympathizer'.
A person that places blame both on the group assaulting the other group and on the group defending themselves from said assault is either not rational or a "nazi sympathizer". Also, you forgot the events consistently showing mass violence ("arrests") from the third group - cops - as well, which is also specifically political since said third group only assaults the second group and not the first group which began the violence.
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin

Last edited by caveman1917; 10th July 2019 at 04:50 AM.
caveman1917 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th July 2019, 04:52 AM   #692
caveman1917
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 6,622
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I meant what I said.
Well in that case there is no difference between nazis and the alt-right in general, both are generally for privatization.
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
caveman1917 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th July 2019, 07:32 AM   #693
luchog
Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist
 
luchog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: The Emerald City
Posts: 15,856
Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
If they are, there are police for that. We don't need the "protection" of antifa.

Except that, as has so often been noted, the police commonly either side with the fascist thugs, or take a "hands off" approach to them. Throughout American history, minorities have had as much to fear from police harassment and brutality as they have from any other group.

Not to mention that the police in this country have no duty to protect citizens from anything; according to the highest court in the land.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I can't make heads or tails of that sentence, so I can't respond.

Seems pretty straightforward to me.

Quote:
The point, which was very clear, is that alt-right <> Nazi. Lots of people may associate with those groups, but it doesn't make them members.

Alt.right is not an organization that has members, it's a blanket term used to describe a number of disparate but similar groups and movements that share a similar worldview.

Quote:
That sounds contradictory.

Only if you don't understand the religious mindset. It would help to study the Bible, particularly the book of Revelations, to really understand why the Evangelical churches support the nation of Israel, but have no love for Jews. In a nutshell, Israel as a nation is necessary to end-times prophesy; but the Jews are not needed beyond that, and are considered by most Christian sects to be as worthy of damnation as any other non-Christian.

Further, you have to understand the Evangelicals' and Fundamentalists' view of themselves in relation to the abstract concept of Israel. There is a passage in scripture describing the Church (the body of believers, not any particular sect) as "the true Jews". Evangelicals in particular have latched onto this passage, out of context, and turned it into a sort of slogan, using it as a justification for a sense of elitism and separatism. They are the new "chosen people". Of course, what they fail to understand about it is that it's not intended to set them apart as somehow better than anyone else, but to set them apart as a people from home much more is expected, who are intended to live by a much more stringent set of moral principles. Quite the opposite of the elitism they assume; "He who would be greatest among you, must be the servant of all"; and "To whom much is given, much shall be expected". Something that few of those claiming to be the "chosen people" even understand, let alone live by.

It gets more complicated than that, of course, but trying to explain it further would be fruitless if you don't have the religious context it's founded on.

Quote:
Nationalisation, I said. Again, pay attention.

Nationalization of industry? Is that what you mean? Because you are not being very clear about that at all. In any case, far-right groups are not interested in government takeover of industry, that's a far-left thing, Communists. The far-right is generally much more in favour of privatization of government agencies; and have done in every case that they've gained sufficient power. Fascists do not support nationalisation, they favour corporatism, something that is increasingly defining the American and world economy.

Quote:
Do you have specific examples?

Seriously? You do know what white supremacism is, right? Some form of eugenics beliefs are inherent in the white supremacist worldview, it's kind of the point of the thing. Superior race vs. inferiour race.

For starters, you can read up on the history of eugenics in the US: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugeni..._United_States
__________________
"All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others." -- Douglas Adams
"The absence of evidence might indeed not be evidence of absence, but it's a pretty good start." -- PhantomWolf
"Let's see the buggers figure that one out." - John Lennon

Last edited by luchog; 10th July 2019 at 07:37 AM.
luchog is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th July 2019, 07:45 AM   #694
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 47,477
Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
If they are, there are police for that. We don't need the "protection" of antifa.
Exactly, the so called greensboro massacre was an example of how things should be done. The KKK and the police worked together and really showed those foolish communists what for at their death to the klan march. That is a perfect example of how such protests should be run.

And here they thought they would need protection, bah there is no protection available against both the police and the klan.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th July 2019, 08:01 AM   #695
rdwight
Muse
 
rdwight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 533
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
A person that places blame both on the group assaulting the other group and on the group defending themselves from said assault is either not rational or a "nazi sympathizer". Also, you forgot the events consistently showing mass violence ("arrests") from the third group - cops - as well, which is also specifically political since said third group only assaults the second group and not the first group which began the violence.
The counter protesters were the ones attacking. They started the violence, unless of course you think speech is violence..

Your statement is possibly the most ironic thing I've ever seen here.
rdwight is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th July 2019, 08:02 AM   #696
Foolmewunz
Grammar Resistance Leader
TLA Dictator
 
Foolmewunz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Pattaya, Thailand
Posts: 41,250
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
You called him a "non-entity," did you not?
Yes, but I didn't say it warranted dismissal. In fact, I asked you to tell me what was in the interview that merited attention. (Which you never did.)
__________________
Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele

It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable.
Foolmewunz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th July 2019, 08:08 AM   #697
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 37,190
Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Nationalism is pretty much the definition of all groups under the alt.right umbrella.
Nationalism is pretty much the definition of all groups who don't want open borders.

Do you want open borders? No? Then you're a nationalist.

Last edited by theprestige; 10th July 2019 at 09:17 AM. Reason: s/?/. as god intended
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th July 2019, 09:01 AM   #698
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 19,318
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
A person that places blame both on the group assaulting the other group and on the group defending themselves from said assault is either not rational or a "nazi sympathizer". Also, you forgot the events consistently showing mass violence ("arrests") from the third group - cops - as well, which is also specifically political since said third group only assaults the second group and not the first group which began the violence.
Figuring out which is "the assaulting group" is often problematic.

Example: I saw some video of the May 1 confrontation in Portland outside of a bar. An Antifa crowd was there. Some Proud Boys (I think) started verbally harassing them. The Antifa folks, of course, responded. Then one of the Antifa crowd threw a drink at the Proud Boys. One of the Proud Boys responded with pepper spray. One of the Antifa people then pulled out a truly amazing pepper spray aerosol sprayer. This thing made a cloud that was huge. It covered a front that was about six people wide. I don't know where you could buy such a thing, because it sure as heck wasn't a personal defense device. Can you buy riot control gear for personal use? Or was it a homemade contraption? Anyway, at that, most of the Proud Boys dispersed, but on the edges of the camera view, outside of the pepper spray cloud, you could see that a few scuffles had broken out, and news reports indicated there were injuries.


So, who assaulted whom? The first verbal harassment was the Proud Boys. The first physical escalation was Antifa. The first pepper spray was Proud Boys, aimed specifically at the drink-thrower. Then there was the general pepper spray cloud from Antifa aimed at anyone near them. Who would a jury say was guilty in that scenario?


For my part, I would be generally more critical of the Proud Boys, because they had no reason to be there in the first place. They were looking for a fight. On the other hand, Antifa obliged. It's not straightforward to cast blame in that case.


By the same token, the more recent violence in Portland had the police telling people that the Proud Boys should go to one place, and Antifa should go to the other. Antifa defied the orders, and by most accounts, also engaged in physical attacks when they got there. Once again, I'm sure there is plenty of blame to be cast at both sides, but on balance, it seems to me that Antifa was more of an aggressor.


And what about the case where one group has a parade permit, and a different group physically blocks their way, preventing them from using the space for which they have a permit? Are those blocking the way valiantly defending the streets? It seems to me that they are breaking the law. I won't give a pass to people who initiate violence in order to continue through the blocked street, but what ought to happen in that case is that the "parade" ought to stop, and they ought to call on the local police, who ought then to order the people blocking the path to disperse or be arrested. If that doesn't happen, violence is inevitable.


And if that street-blocking only occurred when confronted with the neo-Nazis at Charlottesville, or the Proud Boys in Portland, I could at least have some sympathy. However, I've seen video of the same sorts of folks in Antifa-style clothing do that to pro-Trump marches. I'm not all that fond of Republicans, and even less so of the Trump wing of the party, but if they get a parade permit, people ought to get over it and get out of their way. Jeer at them from the sides of the road if you wish, as is your right, but stay within the law.

Last edited by Meadmaker; 10th July 2019 at 09:03 AM.
Meadmaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th July 2019, 09:02 AM   #699
carlitos
"más divertido"
 
carlitos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 20,471
deleted - nvm

Last edited by carlitos; 10th July 2019 at 09:03 AM.
carlitos is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th July 2019, 09:05 AM   #700
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 47,477
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Figuring out which is "the assaulting group" is often problematic.

Example: I saw some video of the May 1 confrontation in Portland outside of a bar. An Antifa crowd was there. Some Proud Boys (I think) started verbally harassing them. The Antifa folks, of course, responded. Then one of the Antifa crowd threw a drink at the Proud Boys. One of the Proud Boys responded with pepper spray. One of the Antifa people then pulled out a truly amazing pepper spray aerosol sprayer. This thing made a cloud that was huge. It covered a front that was about six people wide. I don't know where you could buy such a thing, because it sure as heck wasn't a personal defense device. Can you buy riot control gear for personal use? Or was it a homemade contraption?
Sure there are lots of ways and reasons why fogg type dispensers are prefered over stream type, being more sure of a hit for one. And if it is say bear spray you don't want to miss.

This is of course subject to local state laws.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th July 2019, 10:01 AM   #701
plague311
Great minds think...
 
plague311's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 6,364
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Slightly ironic, don't you think?
I don't personally think so, but to each their own.

I still stand by what I said. If someone were to draw up a Venn Diagram, I don't think I'm that far off. That isn't guilt by association since that's defined as:

Quote:
guilt ascribed to someone not because of any evidence but because of their association with an offender.
I gave several examples of their worldview and how they believe the same thing in several instances. Which would mean it is based on evidence, not merely the fact that they were in the same place at the same time. They were in the same place at the same time because they have the same beliefs and worldviews, for the most part.

You implied that they were all together because they had a common enemy. I don't believe that.
__________________
"Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher

“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss
plague311 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th July 2019, 10:05 AM   #702
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 84,514
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Well in that case there is no difference between nazis and the alt-right in general, both are generally for privatization.
Well since that's not true, your point is moot.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th July 2019, 10:10 AM   #703
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 84,514
Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Seems pretty straightforward to me.
Obviously, since our own points seem pretty clear to us. However since I don't know what you mean, how about you tell me?

Quote:
Alt.right is not an organization that has members, it's a blanket term used to describe a number of disparate but similar groups and movements that share a similar worldview.
And?

Quote:
Only if you don't understand the religious mindset.
That's condescending in more ways than one, but the point is conceded.

Quote:
Nationalization of industry? Is that what you mean? Because you are not being very clear about that at all.
What else could I possibly be talking about?

Quote:
Seriously? You do know what white supremacism is, right? Some form of eugenics beliefs are inherent in the white supremacist worldview, it's kind of the point of the thing. Superior race vs. inferiour race.
That's not what eugenics are.

Also, entirely off topic, why do you write superior with no "u" but inferior with one?
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th July 2019, 10:12 AM   #704
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 84,514
Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
You implied that they were all together because they had a common enemy. I don't believe that.
Really? Seems to me like their common enemies are liberals and immigrants.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th July 2019, 10:51 AM   #705
Dancing David
Penultimate Amazing
 
Dancing David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: central Illinois
Posts: 39,699
Originally Posted by Venom View Post
I just don't like mob rule. Nip it in the bud. Better the bad guy gets isolated from the rest of society and punished lightly than giving lynch mobs free reign to do whatever to whoever. **** that.
Exactly, you never know when the mob will turn on you!
__________________
I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn
And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch
You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager
Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar

Last edited by Dancing David; 10th July 2019 at 10:54 AM.
Dancing David is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th July 2019, 11:54 AM   #706
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 44,973
I was not in time to see a poster;s response to my "a lot of people here who advocate violence are just interent loudmouths, who would run away from any actual fighting" because it got removed by the mods, but I take it as a sign I pretty much hit my target.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th July 2019, 11:55 AM   #707
caveman1917
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 6,622
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Well since that's not true, your point is moot.
The alt-right in general is for nationalisation?
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
caveman1917 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th July 2019, 11:58 AM   #708
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 44,973
And once again the problem is who decided who is a Nazi and who is not?
Let's be honest;a lot of the people here define Nazis as "anybody who is not as far to the left as I am".
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th July 2019, 11:58 AM   #709
Mumbles
Philosopher
 
Mumbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 7,131
Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
If they are, there are police for that. We don't need the "protection" of antifa.
You know, there's a reason why "cops and Klan go hand in hand". We've seen this not only in Portland and Charolettesville, but also in Baltimore where police isolated teenagers trying to go home, and then fired tear gas and rubber bullets at them, thus setting off a major riot, and in Ferguson where police responded to a grieving community with riot gear and military equipment (and several activists have mysteriously been found in burned-out cars with bullets in the backs of their heads).

There are also the pipelines out in the Midwest, where police attacked Native protestors (and their sympathisers) when they protested pipelines that had been rerouted onto their lands to move them away from white communities.

"there are police for that"...no, there are police for you, so long as you don't push against the system. There have never been police for me.
Mumbles is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th July 2019, 12:01 PM   #710
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 44,973
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Figuring out which is "the assaulting group" is often problematic.

Example: I saw some video of the May 1 confrontation in Portland outside of a bar. An Antifa crowd was there. Some Proud Boys (I think) started verbally harassing them. The Antifa folks, of course, responded. Then one of the Antifa crowd threw a drink at the Proud Boys. One of the Proud Boys responded with pepper spray. One of the Antifa people then pulled out a truly amazing pepper spray aerosol sprayer. This thing made a cloud that was huge. It covered a front that was about six people wide. I don't know where you could buy such a thing, because it sure as heck wasn't a personal defense device. Can you buy riot control gear for personal use? Or was it a homemade contraption? Anyway, at that, most of the Proud Boys dispersed, but on the edges of the camera view, outside of the pepper spray cloud, you could see that a few scuffles had broken out, and news reports indicated there were injuries.


So, who assaulted whom? The first verbal harassment was the Proud Boys. The first physical escalation was Antifa. The first pepper spray was Proud Boys, aimed specifically at the drink-thrower. Then there was the general pepper spray cloud from Antifa aimed at anyone near them. Who would a jury say was guilty in that scenario?


For my part, I would be generally more critical of the Proud Boys, because they had no reason to be there in the first place. They were looking for a fight. On the other hand, Antifa obliged. It's not straightforward to cast blame in that case.


By the same token, the more recent violence in Portland had the police telling people that the Proud Boys should go to one place, and Antifa should go to the other. Antifa defied the orders, and by most accounts, also engaged in physical attacks when they got there. Once again, I'm sure there is plenty of blame to be cast at both sides, but on balance, it seems to me that Antifa was more of an aggressor.


And what about the case where one group has a parade permit, and a different group physically blocks their way, preventing them from using the space for which they have a permit? Are those blocking the way valiantly defending the streets? It seems to me that they are breaking the law. I won't give a pass to people who initiate violence in order to continue through the blocked street, but what ought to happen in that case is that the "parade" ought to stop, and they ought to call on the local police, who ought then to order the people blocking the path to disperse or be arrested. If that doesn't happen, violence is inevitable.


And if that street-blocking only occurred when confronted with the neo-Nazis at Charlottesville, or the Proud Boys in Portland, I could at least have some sympathy. However, I've seen video of the same sorts of folks in Antifa-style clothing do that to pro-Trump marches. I'm not all that fond of Republicans, and even less so of the Trump wing of the party, but if they get a parade permit, people ought to get over it and get out of their way. Jeer at them from the sides of the road if you wish, as is your right, but stay within the law.
I saw Antifa in action in Berkely in 2017, and I saw them fight fascism by trashing and looting some small businesses in Berekely.
Not an inspiring sight.
Hopefully some of the more intelligent anti fascists will distance themselves from the Antifa label as it becomes more toxic. But your description that its often two groups looking for fight is right.
The scary think is the discussion here about Antifa in Berkelty, you had a couple of people who basically said that looting a small business was a legititmate form of protest.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th July 2019, 12:06 PM   #711
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 44,973
Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
You know, there's a reason why "cops and Klan go hand in hand". We've seen this not only in Portland and Charolettesville, but also in Baltimore where police isolated teenagers trying to go home, and then fired tear gas and rubber bullets at them, thus setting off a major riot, and in Ferguson where police responded to a grieving community with riot gear and military equipment (and several activists have mysteriously been found in burned-out cars with bullets in the backs of their heads).

There are also the pipelines out in the Midwest, where police attacked Native protestors (and their sympathisers) when they protested pipelines that had been rerouted onto their lands to move them away from white communities.

"there are police for that"...no, there are police for you, so long as you don't push against the system. There have never been police for me.

So Mob Rule is the way to go?
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th July 2019, 12:20 PM   #712
plague311
Great minds think...
 
plague311's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 6,364
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Really? Seems to me like their common enemies are liberals and immigrants.
Right, that is absolutely a common enemy. I was aiming a little deeper as to why they are a common enemy? Because all of those people that gathered on their "side" share a mutual hatred of liberals and immigrants based on their shared beliefs. Their beliefs overlap to such an extent that those people have become a common enemy.

So, you're not wrong, just not as right as I think you could be.
__________________
"Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher

“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss
plague311 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th July 2019, 12:21 PM   #713
Mumbles
Philosopher
 
Mumbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 7,131
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
And once again the problem is who decided who is a Nazi and who is not?
Let's be honest;a lot of the people here define Nazis as "anybody who is not as far to the left as I am".
That's odd, the people I've seen on this thread have all pointed to that whole"wants to turn their country into a white ethnostate where freedoms are heavily curtailed, and men run things while women are consigned to bearing and raising children."

Y'know, the groups that fall under the "alt-right" umbrella.

Oddly, what I have seen are a few people that insist that "antifa" refers solely to Black Bloc anarchists (who, to be fair, are well known for smashing windows and starting fires, and generally being aggressive), rather than the large number of nonviolent protestors, doxxers, and so forth who understand that the "alt Right" groups who openly desire genocide are inherently violent, and are thus prepared to fight if need be.
Mumbles is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th July 2019, 12:21 PM   #714
Venom
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 2,874
I wouldn't even call a true far-rightist a Nazi if they weren't, and chances are they aren't.

A Nazi is a Nazi. We have a bunch of right wingers of various stripes with their own designations.

It's in no way intended to lessen the severity of anyone's crimes or anything. Call it tone policing or whatever, idc.
Venom is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th July 2019, 12:26 PM   #715
Mumbles
Philosopher
 
Mumbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 7,131
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
So Mob Rule is the way to go?
"Mob Rule" is what we have, and I have no choice in the matter. And when groups like BLM tried to propose something better, folks lost their minds, screaming that they were terrorists and cop killers (to date, groups like BLM have attempted to kill 0 cops, and 0 people at all, and 0 attempted terrorist attacks*)

*: anyone who wishes to point to some incident or other (not just dudalb), I suggest doing research before posting. And if I don't respond, I probably got sick of your racist crap and put you on ignore years ago.

Last edited by Mumbles; 10th July 2019 at 12:28 PM.
Mumbles is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th July 2019, 01:00 PM   #716
plague311
Great minds think...
 
plague311's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 6,364
Originally Posted by Venom View Post
I wouldn't even call a true far-rightist a Nazi if they weren't, and chances are they aren't.

A Nazi is a Nazi. We have a bunch of right wingers of various stripes with their own designations.

It's in no way intended to lessen the severity of anyone's crimes or anything. Call it tone policing or whatever, idc.
Ok, but would you agree that there are people with common outlooks as Nazis? Take for instance, as I mentioned earlier, you make a Venn Diagram of Nazi's and alt-right folk. Would you say that it would significantly overlap? Notice I'm not saying Hitler, I'm saying...you know. Your average Nazi soldier.
__________________
"Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher

“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss
plague311 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th July 2019, 01:15 PM   #717
luchog
Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist
 
luchog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: The Emerald City
Posts: 15,856
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Nationalism is pretty much the definition of all groups who don't want open borders.

Do you want open borders? No? Then you're a nationalist.

I'm guessing that you're not a native English speaker; because the only other options are that you're being deliberately dishonest or you're an idiot. Since it's obvious you're not an idiot, I'll be charitable and assume you're not a native speaker.

From the online Oxford Dictionary of the English Language:

nationalism
NOUN
mass noun
1Identification with one's own nation and support for its interests, especially to the exclusion or detriment of the interests of other nations.
‘their nationalism is tempered by a desire to join the European Union’

1.1Advocacy of or support for the political independence of a particular nation or people.
‘Scottish nationalism’

Nothing in there about the state of the borders.

Let's try another dictionary, Merriam Webster

nationalism noun
na·​tion·​al·​ism | \ ˈnash-nə-ˌli-zəm , ˈna-shə-nə-ˌli-zəm\
Definition of nationalism
1 : loyalty and devotion to a nation
especially : a sense of national consciousness (see CONSCIOUSNESS sense 1c) exalting one nation above all others and placing primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations or supranational groups
Intense nationalism was one of the causes of the war.
2 : a nationalist movement or government
opposing nationalisms

So, the two most prestigious dictionaries in the English-speaking world say nothing about the state of borders being necessary to the definition of nationalism. It's all about cultural chauvinism and elitism.

This is what is know as the "redefinition fallacy", redefining words to fit your idiosyncratic meaning, rather than relying on the standard accepted meaning of the words, in order to attempt to "win" a debate that you cannot otherwise answer with evidence or logic.
__________________
"All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others." -- Douglas Adams
"The absence of evidence might indeed not be evidence of absence, but it's a pretty good start." -- PhantomWolf
"Let's see the buggers figure that one out." - John Lennon
luchog is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th July 2019, 01:21 PM   #718
luchog
Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist
 
luchog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: The Emerald City
Posts: 15,856
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
That's condescending in more ways than one, but the point is conceded.

Sorry, wasn't mean to be. I meant to say "their" religious mindset; and if you haven't grown up in those communities inundated with their propaganda (which I have), it's very difficult to understand the breadth and depth to which that belief system permeates their entire decision-making processes.

Quote:
That's not what eugenics are.

I provided you a link, which you appear to have ignored.

Quote:
Also, entirely off topic, why do you write superior with no "u" but inferior with one?

To provide people who are trying to ignore the argument something to nitpick about instead of actually addressing the point made.
__________________
"All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others." -- Douglas Adams
"The absence of evidence might indeed not be evidence of absence, but it's a pretty good start." -- PhantomWolf
"Let's see the buggers figure that one out." - John Lennon
luchog is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th July 2019, 03:18 PM   #719
Venom
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 2,874
Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Ok, but would you agree that there are people with common outlooks as Nazis? Take for instance, as I mentioned earlier, you make a Venn Diagram of Nazi's and alt-right folk. Would you say that it would significantly overlap? Notice I'm not saying Hitler, I'm saying...you know. Your average Nazi soldier.
Yes, there is some overlap. But I like to make distinctions clear.

I'm super not a fan of calling every insurgent or mass murderer a terrorist or everyone accused of sex with minors as pedophiles. We have a tendency to conflate things for extra effect.
Venom is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th July 2019, 03:36 PM   #720
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 43,929
Originally Posted by luchog View Post
So, the two most prestigious dictionaries in the English-speaking world say nothing about the state of borders being necessary to the definition of nationalism.
Given that borders are one of the defining features of a nation, that seems rather implicit in the definition.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:54 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.