General UK politics - Page 13

catsmate · 7th January 2021, 08:23 AM

Originally Posted by Airfix

You know why David Cameron won in 2015 though don't you ?

He offered a referendum.
Ed Miliband ruled out a referendum.

If both had offered the referendum, David Cameron would have lost.

So you had a referendum. Now everyone loses.

Archie Gemmill Goal · 7th January 2021, 08:48 AM

Originally Posted by Airfix

You know why David Cameron won in 2015 though don't you ?

Because England ALWAYS votes Tory?

Because Milliband ate a bacon butty?

Because the same racists and xenophobes who want to leave the EU were concerned about immigration in 2015?

Lothian · 7th January 2021, 08:56 AM

Originally Posted by Airfix

You know why David Cameron won in 2015 though don't you ?

He offered a referendum.
Ed Miliband ruled out a referendum.

If both had offered the referendum, David Cameron would have lost.

This claim is unsubstantiated by evidence and is disputed.

catsmate · 7th January 2021, 11:23 AM

Originally Posted by Lothian

This claim is unsubstantiated by evidence and is disputed.

Captain_Swoop · 7th January 2021, 11:26 AM

The difference between the UK and the USA is the attempted coup by storming the Capitol failed whereas in the UK Boris' illegal dissolving and proroguing of parliament succeeded.

Captain_Swoop · 7th January 2021, 02:32 PM

There seems to be a mass deletion of tweets by Tory MPs today.

looks like they are deleting Toby Young retweets and all the pro Trump ones too.

Vixen · 30th January 2021, 02:34 AM

So 'Boris' Johnson visited Scotland in the middle of a pandemic. His approval rating there is low and over 50% want independence. Clearly, Johnson and Westminster are not popular there. So what does he do, he decides to go on a photo shoot, given all the pictures of him ham-fistedly trying to use some ancient multi-pipette and wearing science-y-looking goggles and a white coat. He looks like a toddler concentrating hard on hand eye-coordination. Perhaps he had had a skinful the night before.

https://twitter.com/PhantomPower14/s...423280130?s=20

https://twitter.com/AngusRobertson/s...973597697?s=20

Question: What did this visit achieve?

Archie Gemmill Goal · 30th January 2021, 03:20 AM

Originally Posted by Vixen

So 'Boris' Johnson visited Scotland in the middle of a pandemic. His approval rating there is low and over 50% want independence. Clearly, Johnson and Westminster are not popular there. So what does he do, he decides to go on a photo shoot, given all the pictures of him ham-fistedly trying to use some ancient multi-pipette and wearing science-y-looking goggles and a white coat. He looks like a toddler concentrating hard on hand eye-coordination. Perhaps he had had a skinful the night before.

https://twitter.com/PhantomPower14/s...423280130?s=20

https://twitter.com/AngusRobertson/s...973597697?s=20

Question: What did this visit achieve?

Another 2 or 3% on the Yes vote hopefully.

P.J. Denyer · 30th January 2021, 03:36 AM

Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal

Another 2 or 3% on the Yes vote hopefully.

I'm sure he felt it was worth it so spend yet another day playing dress up. If there's one thing Mr Bent loves, it's playing dress up.

Carrot Flower King · 30th January 2021, 04:35 AM

Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal

Another 2 or 3% on the Yes vote hopefully.

So when you go, can someone please remember all the blether about "North of Hadrian's Wall..." and take us with you?

Seriously, you've even had better Tory leaders than we managed in Ingerland.

Mind, in reality for the likes of us, as someone I know in Berwick said to me a while back, Holyrood would probably ignore us as much as Westminster does. See also a conversation I had with someone in NW Sutherland shortly before the 2014 vote, in which he opined that being governed from the Central Belt would be no different from being governed from Westminster, as none of them know where Sutherland is...

Archie Gemmill Goal · 30th January 2021, 04:43 AM

Originally Posted by Carrot Flower King

So when you go, can someone please remember all the blether about "North of Hadrian's Wall..." and take us with you?

Seriously, you've even had better Tory leaders than we managed in Ingerland.

Mind, in reality for the likes of us, as someone I know in Berwick said to me a while back, Holyrood would probably ignore us as much as Westminster does. See also a conversation I had with someone in NW Sutherland shortly before the 2014 vote, in which he opined that being governed from the Central Belt would be no different from being governed from Westminster, as none of them know where Sutherland is...

I know this is a fairly common opinion in Scotland but not one I share. I've seen how Scotland is treated in the annals of UK Government at close quarters. Openly hostile at times.

Even being an afterthought would be an improvement to be honest.

Carrot Flower King · 30th January 2021, 11:03 AM

Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal

I know this is a fairly common opinion in Scotland but not one I share. I've seen how Scotland is treated in the annals of UK Government at close quarters. Openly hostile at times.

Even being an afterthought would be an improvement to be honest.

Yeah, that's a view which many, including me, in some regions of England would share, especially the North East or Cornwall, IME.

P.J. Denyer · 30th January 2021, 12:03 PM

Originally Posted by Carrot Flower King

Yeah, that's a view which many, including me, in some regions of England would share, especially the North East or Cornwall, IME.

Honestly when it comes to the Torys I don't think it's geographical, if you're not a millionaire in London they despise you just as much as if you're not a millionaire in Inverness.

Darat · 31st January 2021, 04:22 AM

Originally Posted by Carrot Flower King

Yeah, that's a view which many, including me, in some regions of England would share, especially the North East or Cornwall, IME.

Cornwall is starting to see a lot more investment; the fact that it became a very popular second home location for many of the London based “good and great” is entirely coincidental.

Aber · 31st January 2021, 05:29 AM

Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer

Honestly when it comes to the Torys I don't think it's geographical, if you're not a millionaire in London they despise you just as much as if you're not a millionaire in Inverness.

Up to a point:

https://twitter.com/Helenreflects/st...ffiliation-fun

See Walsall North

catsmate · 2nd February 2021, 09:27 AM

Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal

Another 2 or 3% on the Yes vote hopefully.

Airfix · 4th February 2021, 04:00 AM

Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal

Because England ALWAYS votes Tory?

^ Irrational racism against the English?

Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal

Because Milliband ate a bacon butty?

Nope, because Miliband's an idiot who ruled out a referendum on membership of the EU.
Being anti democratic is not a good position.

Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal

Because the same racists and xenophobes who want to leave the EU were concerned about immigration in 2015?

Having concerns about immigration is not necessarily racist, especially if it's about skills and numbers, rather than nationality / colour.

But hating the English and claiming they're always voting Tory, that is racism. It's a hatred of someone based on their nationality.

Take a good long hard look at yourself in the mirror.

May I remind you that from 1997-2005 the elections were dominated by Labour?
And before that, in 1974 Labour won, 1966 and 64, Labour won, 1945 and 1950, Labour won.
That wouldn't have been possible without English Labour constituencies.

Stop making assumptions about people.

Captain_Swoop · 4th February 2021, 04:18 AM

I am English, I agree that idiots always vote Tory even when they know it is against their own interest to do so.

Airfix · 4th February 2021, 04:40 AM

Well, the answer is to provide an alternative!!!!

Once there's an alternative, then people WON'T!

Carrot Flower King · 4th February 2021, 05:13 AM

And remember when the SNP were the Tartan Tories? That wasn't too long ago.

Airfix · 4th February 2021, 08:43 AM

I never called them that.

Carrot Flower King · 4th February 2021, 09:04 AM

^If (#501) you are referring to my #500, I wasn't even implying you did, just pointing out that it isn't too long since the SNP were regarded that way, mostly as that was how they behaved.

Mojo · 4th February 2021, 09:14 AM

Originally Posted by Airfix

^ Irrational racism against the English?

Or perhaps a reasonable conclusion given that you have to go back to 2001 to find a general election in which the Tories didn’t get more votes in England than any other party. Contrast this with Scotland.

Airfix · 4th February 2021, 09:27 AM

2001? True but look what happened since.
Iraq war fiasco.
Banking crash while deficit spending.
Lisbon treaty fiasco.
Bigotgate (Gordon Brown calling Gillian Duffy a bigoted woman, then going to her home to apologise like a proper plonker).
Ed Miliband and his absurd anti referendum strategy which backfired.
The 'People's Vote' campaign, which backfired...

Mojo · 4th February 2021, 10:04 AM

Originally Posted by Airfix

Ed Miliband and his absurd anti referendum strategy which backfired.

You seem rather confused about whose absurd referendum strategy backfired.

Airfix · 4th February 2021, 10:26 AM

Did Ed Miliband win the 2015 election ?
No.
Did the 2015 election lead to an in out referendum in 2016 ?
Yes.
Therefore his anti referendum strategy failed.
Are we in the EU ?
No.

What is there to be confused about ?

Nice avatar btw.

Don't take me disagreeing with your argument as "shooting the messenger", I'm a democrat, I'm here to debate, not hate.

GlennB · 4th February 2021, 10:58 AM

Originally Posted by Airfix

Did Ed Miliband win the 2015 election ?
No.
Did the 2015 election lead to an in out referendum in 2016 ?
Yes.
Therefore his anti referendum strategy failed.
Are we in the EU ?
No.

Bizarre logic. You should look up the 'correlation does not imply causation' concept.

A short article analysing the background to the 2015 election and the 2016 referendum.

Airfix · 4th February 2021, 04:12 PM

He misses the referendum debate of 2011.
https://publications.parliament.uk/p...11024-0002.htm

There had been a petition signed by over 100,000 people calling for one.
David Cameron instructed his MPs to vote against holding one and the first time, the referendum was voted down, but petitions and debates kept coming.

The UK Independence Party started growing and became a threat.

Conservative Councillors were defecting.
Suzanne Evans being one of the more famous examples.

The spectre of a large chunk of Conservative MPs defecting was something he definitely did not want and committed to a referendum.
In the 2014 EU election he stated Labour and the Lib Dems won't, UKIP can't, the Conservatives will.

The defections of Douglas Carswell and Mark Reckless occurred later that year after he had already committed himself by manifesto to holding such a referendum and no more MPs or MEPs followed.

But Ed Miliband, he really dropped the ball in 2014, and it cost him in 2015.
There were 4,376,635 UKIP voters in 2014, whose votes Ed needed to tap into in 2015.

In 2015
11,299,609 voted Conservative
9,347,273 voted Labour
3,881,099 voted UKIP.
Some of those UKIP voters had switched to the Tories, but most did not.

Ever considered that it was because they wanted a referendum without voting Tory ?

Ever considered that IF Ed Miliband had backed the referendum, he could have got an extra 3 million votes ?
At 12.3 million votes, Ed would have been PM.

dudalb · 4th February 2021, 05:03 PM

Originally Posted by Vixen

So 'Boris' Johnson visited Scotland in the middle of a pandemic. His approval rating there is low and over 50% want independence. Clearly, Johnson and Westminster are not popular there. So what does he do, he decides to go on a photo shoot, given all the pictures of him ham-fistedly trying to use some ancient multi-pipette and wearing science-y-looking goggles and a white coat. He looks like a toddler concentrating hard on hand eye-coordination. Perhaps he had had a skinful the night before.

https://twitter.com/PhantomPower14/s...423280130?s=20

https://twitter.com/AngusRobertson/s...973597697?s=20

Question: What did this visit achieve?

Aside from insulting the Scots, and becoming one of the most unpopular English leaders to visit Scotland since Longshanks/Edward the 1st, nothing.

Darat · 6th February 2021, 08:34 AM

Apparently some good news: https://www.theguardian.com/politics...ed-paper-shows

Suggestion that the disaster of the Tories so-called “opening up” NHS England may be at least in part reversed.

Off course yet another major restructuring is the last thing the NHS needs, but we do need to get rid of the waste, costs and bureaucracy introduced by the Tories. Whether this “reversal” happens is of course very much up in the air at the moment.

Airfix · 6th February 2021, 08:45 AM

The sooner the NHS is directly funded and ADEQUATELY funded, the better.
Scrap PFI.

Darat · 6th February 2021, 08:49 AM

Originally Posted by Airfix

The sooner the NHS is directly funded and ADEQUATELY funded, the better.
Scrap PFI.

PFI has been scrapped.

Garrison · 6th February 2021, 03:14 PM

Originally Posted by Airfix

The sooner the NHS is directly funded and ADEQUATELY funded, the better.
Scrap PFI.

If you think Boris and co. plan for less private involvement in the NHS you are kidding yourself. This 'reform' will doubtless take the form of yet more pretend extra money while allowing a larger role for private health care to syphon off the profitable patients.

Airfix · 6th February 2021, 03:23 PM

Originally Posted by Darat

PFI has been scrapped.

Good.

Airfix · 6th February 2021, 03:24 PM

Originally Posted by Garrison

If you think Boris and co. plan for less private involvement in the NHS you are kidding yourself.

I'm well aware how Boris and co are. That's why I don't vote for them.

Originally Posted by Garrison

This 'reform' will doubtless take the form of yet more pretend extra money while allowing a larger role for private health care to syphon off the profitable patients.

No disagreement.

But Boris and co will not always be in government, and anything they do in government can be undone by a future government.

Captain_Swoop · 7th February 2021, 05:18 AM

They are scrapping the ridiculous idea that local GPs should be in charge of the budget and choose which hospital should treat the patients they refer.

Darat · 7th February 2021, 05:58 AM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

They are scrapping the ridiculous idea that local GPs should be in charge of the budget and choose which hospital should treat the patients they refer.

Which meant the budget has ended up in the hands of private companies not GP practice partnerships. That is why when I get a referral appointment now it takes 2 extra letters.

I get one from the GP saying I’m being referred and I will get a letter from such-a-such company, I then get the letter from that company saying I will get an appointment at whatever clinic/hospital they have contracted with, then I get one from the clinic/hospital with the date and time of the appointment.

That used to be one letter from the clinic/hospital giving me my appointment date and time.

Darat · 7th February 2021, 11:43 AM

Oh dear me, what a surprise yet more of good old “never interferes with politics” Queenie interfering with legislation for her own benefit…. https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...private-wealth

Carrot Flower King · 8th February 2021, 05:56 AM

^ Have a read of Norman Baker's ...And What Do You Do? (if you haven't already) for more dismantling of the "apolitical" monarchy myth.

The sooner we get shot of the inbred robber barons the better.

Carrot Flower King · 8th February 2021, 06:16 AM

And notice that it was the Heath government who first tried to introduce that bill: I'm struggling with the idea that any Tory government since would have done so...

7th January 2021, 08:23 AM	#481
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 23,869	Originally Posted by Airfix You know why David Cameron won in 2015 though don't you ? He offered a referendum. Ed Miliband ruled out a referendum. If both had offered the referendum, David Cameron would have lost. So you had a referendum. Now everyone loses.
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

7th January 2021, 08:48 AM	#482
Archie Gemmill Goal Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 7,770	Originally Posted by Airfix You know why David Cameron won in 2015 though don't you ? Because England ALWAYS votes Tory? Because Milliband ate a bacon butty? Because the same racists and xenophobes who want to leave the EU were concerned about immigration in 2015?
	__________________ "I love sex and drugs and sausage rolls But nothing compares to Archie Gemmill's goal"

7th January 2021, 11:23 AM	#484
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 23,869	Originally Posted by Lothian This claim is unsubstantiated by evidence and is disputed.
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

30th January 2021, 02:34 AM	#487
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 20,857	So 'Boris' Johnson visited Scotland in the middle of a pandemic. His approval rating there is low and over 50% want independence. Clearly, Johnson and Westminster are not popular there. So what does he do, he decides to go on a photo shoot, given all the pictures of him ham-fistedly trying to use some ancient multi-pipette and wearing science-y-looking goggles and a white coat. He looks like a toddler concentrating hard on hand eye-coordination. Perhaps he had had a skinful the night before. https://twitter.com/PhantomPower14/s...423280130?s=20 https://twitter.com/AngusRobertson/s...973597697?s=20 Question: What did this visit achieve?
	__________________ Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder, vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!

30th January 2021, 03:20 AM	#488
Archie Gemmill Goal Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 7,770	Originally Posted by Vixen So 'Boris' Johnson visited Scotland in the middle of a pandemic. His approval rating there is low and over 50% want independence. Clearly, Johnson and Westminster are not popular there. So what does he do, he decides to go on a photo shoot, given all the pictures of him ham-fistedly trying to use some ancient multi-pipette and wearing science-y-looking goggles and a white coat. He looks like a toddler concentrating hard on hand eye-coordination. Perhaps he had had a skinful the night before. https://twitter.com/PhantomPower14/s...423280130?s=20 https://twitter.com/AngusRobertson/s...973597697?s=20 Question: What did this visit achieve? Another 2 or 3% on the Yes vote hopefully.
	__________________ "I love sex and drugs and sausage rolls But nothing compares to Archie Gemmill's goal"

7th January 2021, 08:56 AM	#483
Lothian should be banned Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Earth, specifically the crusty bit on the outside Posts: 16,131	Originally Posted by Airfix You know why David Cameron won in 2015 though don't you ? He offered a referendum. Ed Miliband ruled out a referendum. If both had offered the referendum, David Cameron would have lost. This claim is unsubstantiated by evidence and is disputed.

7th January 2021, 11:26 AM	#485
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 31,912	The difference between the UK and the USA is the attempted coup by storming the Capitol failed whereas in the UK Boris' illegal dissolving and proroguing of parliament succeeded.

7th January 2021, 02:32 PM	#486
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 31,912	There seems to be a mass deletion of tweets by Tory MPs today. looks like they are deleting Toby Young retweets and all the pro Trump ones too.

30th January 2021, 03:36 AM	#489
P.J. Denyer Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 7,849	Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal Another 2 or 3% on the Yes vote hopefully. I'm sure he felt it was worth it so spend yet another day playing dress up. If there's one thing Mr Bent loves, it's playing dress up.
P.J. Denyer Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 7,849	__________________ "I know my brain cannot tell me what to think." - Scorpion "Nebulous means Nebulous" - Adam Hills

30th January 2021, 04:35 AM	#490
Carrot Flower King Muse Join Date: Mar 2020 Location: Northumberland, UK Posts: 757	Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal Another 2 or 3% on the Yes vote hopefully. So when you go, can someone please remember all the blether about "North of Hadrian's Wall..." and take us with you? Seriously, you've even had better Tory leaders than we managed in Ingerland. Mind, in reality for the likes of us, as someone I know in Berwick said to me a while back, Holyrood would probably ignore us as much as Westminster does. See also a conversation I had with someone in NW Sutherland shortly before the 2014 vote, in which he opined that being governed from the Central Belt would be no different from being governed from Westminster, as none of them know where Sutherland is...

30th January 2021, 04:43 AM	#491
Archie Gemmill Goal Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 7,770	Originally Posted by Carrot Flower King So when you go, can someone please remember all the blether about "North of Hadrian's Wall..." and take us with you? Seriously, you've even had better Tory leaders than we managed in Ingerland. Mind, in reality for the likes of us, as someone I know in Berwick said to me a while back, Holyrood would probably ignore us as much as Westminster does. See also a conversation I had with someone in NW Sutherland shortly before the 2014 vote, in which he opined that being governed from the Central Belt would be no different from being governed from Westminster, as none of them know where Sutherland is... I know this is a fairly common opinion in Scotland but not one I share. I've seen how Scotland is treated in the annals of UK Government at close quarters. Openly hostile at times. Even being an afterthought would be an improvement to be honest.
	__________________ "I love sex and drugs and sausage rolls But nothing compares to Archie Gemmill's goal"

30th January 2021, 11:03 AM	#492
Carrot Flower King Muse Join Date: Mar 2020 Location: Northumberland, UK Posts: 757	Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal I know this is a fairly common opinion in Scotland but not one I share. I've seen how Scotland is treated in the annals of UK Government at close quarters. Openly hostile at times. Even being an afterthought would be an improvement to be honest. Yeah, that's a view which many, including me, in some regions of England would share, especially the North East or Cornwall, IME.

30th January 2021, 12:03 PM	#493
P.J. Denyer Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 7,849	Originally Posted by Carrot Flower King Yeah, that's a view which many, including me, in some regions of England would share, especially the North East or Cornwall, IME. Honestly when it comes to the Torys I don't think it's geographical, if you're not a millionaire in London they despise you just as much as if you're not a millionaire in Inverness.
P.J. Denyer Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 7,849	__________________ "I know my brain cannot tell me what to think." - Scorpion "Nebulous means Nebulous" - Adam Hills

31st January 2021, 04:22 AM	#494
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 97,067	Originally Posted by Carrot Flower King Yeah, that's a view which many, including me, in some regions of England would share, especially the North East or Cornwall, IME. Cornwall is starting to see a lot more investment; the fact that it became a very popular second home location for many of the London based “good and great” is entirely coincidental.
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

31st January 2021, 05:29 AM	#495
Aber Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 1,681	Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer Honestly when it comes to the Torys I don't think it's geographical, if you're not a millionaire in London they despise you just as much as if you're not a millionaire in Inverness. Up to a point: https://twitter.com/Helenreflects/st...ffiliation-fun See Walsall North
Aber Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 1,681

2nd February 2021, 09:27 AM	#496
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 23,869	Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal Another 2 or 3% on the Yes vote hopefully.
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

4th February 2021, 04:00 AM	#497
Airfix Muse Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 971	Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal Because England ALWAYS votes Tory? ^ Irrational racism against the English? Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal Because Milliband ate a bacon butty? Nope, because Miliband's an idiot who ruled out a referendum on membership of the EU. Being anti democratic is not a good position. Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal Because the same racists and xenophobes who want to leave the EU were concerned about immigration in 2015? Having concerns about immigration is not necessarily racist, especially if it's about skills and numbers, rather than nationality / colour. But hating the English and claiming they're always voting Tory, that is racism. It's a hatred of someone based on their nationality. Take a good long hard look at yourself in the mirror. May I remind you that from 1997-2005 the elections were dominated by Labour? And before that, in 1974 Labour won, 1966 and 64, Labour won, 1945 and 1950, Labour won. That wouldn't have been possible without English Labour constituencies. Stop making assumptions about people.
Airfix Muse Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 971

4th February 2021, 04:18 AM	#498
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 31,912	I am English, I agree that idiots always vote Tory even when they know it is against their own interest to do so.

4th February 2021, 04:40 AM	#499
Airfix Muse Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 971	Well, the answer is to provide an alternative!!!! Once there's an alternative, then people WON'T!
Airfix Muse Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 971

4th February 2021, 05:13 AM	#500
Carrot Flower King Muse Join Date: Mar 2020 Location: Northumberland, UK Posts: 757	And remember when the SNP were the Tartan Tories? That wasn't too long ago.

4th February 2021, 08:43 AM	#501
Airfix Muse Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 971	I never called them that.
Airfix Muse Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 971

4th February 2021, 09:04 AM	#502
Carrot Flower King Muse Join Date: Mar 2020 Location: Northumberland, UK Posts: 757	^If (#501) you are referring to my #500, I wasn't even implying you did, just pointing out that it isn't too long since the SNP were regarded that way, mostly as that was how they behaved.

4th February 2021, 09:14 AM	#503
Mojo Mostly harmless Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 33,772	Originally Posted by Airfix ^ Irrational racism against the English? Or perhaps a reasonable conclusion given that you have to go back to 2001 to find a general election in which the Tories didn’t get more votes in England than any other party. Contrast this with Scotland.
	__________________ "You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky Last edited by Mojo; 4th February 2021 at 09:18 AM.

4th February 2021, 09:27 AM	#504
Airfix Muse Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 971	2001? True but look what happened since. Iraq war fiasco. Banking crash while deficit spending. Lisbon treaty fiasco. Bigotgate (Gordon Brown calling Gillian Duffy a bigoted woman, then going to her home to apologise like a proper plonker). Ed Miliband and his absurd anti referendum strategy which backfired. The 'People's Vote' campaign, which backfired...
Airfix Muse Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 971

4th February 2021, 10:04 AM	#505
Mojo Mostly harmless Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 33,772	Originally Posted by Airfix Ed Miliband and his absurd anti referendum strategy which backfired. You seem rather confused about whose absurd referendum strategy backfired.
	__________________ "You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky

4th February 2021, 10:26 AM	#506
Airfix Muse Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 971	Did Ed Miliband win the 2015 election ? No. Did the 2015 election lead to an in out referendum in 2016 ? Yes. Therefore his anti referendum strategy failed. Are we in the EU ? No. What is there to be confused about ? Nice avatar btw. Don't take me disagreeing with your argument as "shooting the messenger", I'm a democrat, I'm here to debate, not hate.
Airfix Muse Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 971

4th February 2021, 10:58 AM	#507
GlennB Loggerheaded, earth-vexing fustilarian Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Usk, Wales Posts: 26,413	Originally Posted by Airfix Did Ed Miliband win the 2015 election ? No. Did the 2015 election lead to an in out referendum in 2016 ? Yes. Therefore his anti referendum strategy failed. Are we in the EU ? No. Bizarre logic. You should look up the 'correlation does not imply causation' concept. A short article analysing the background to the 2015 election and the 2016 referendum.
	__________________ "Even a broken clock is right twice a day. 9/11 truth is a clock with no hands." - Beachnut Last edited by GlennB; 4th February 2021 at 10:59 AM.

4th February 2021, 04:12 PM	#508
Airfix Muse Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 971	He misses the referendum debate of 2011. https://publications.parliament.uk/p...11024-0002.htm There had been a petition signed by over 100,000 people calling for one. David Cameron instructed his MPs to vote against holding one and the first time, the referendum was voted down, but petitions and debates kept coming. The UK Independence Party started growing and became a threat. Conservative Councillors were defecting. Suzanne Evans being one of the more famous examples. The spectre of a large chunk of Conservative MPs defecting was something he definitely did not want and committed to a referendum. In the 2014 EU election he stated Labour and the Lib Dems won't, UKIP can't, the Conservatives will. The defections of Douglas Carswell and Mark Reckless occurred later that year after he had already committed himself by manifesto to holding such a referendum and no more MPs or MEPs followed. But Ed Miliband, he really dropped the ball in 2014, and it cost him in 2015. There were 4,376,635 UKIP voters in 2014, whose votes Ed needed to tap into in 2015. In 2015 11,299,609 voted Conservative 9,347,273 voted Labour 3,881,099 voted UKIP. Some of those UKIP voters had switched to the Tories, but most did not. Ever considered that it was because they wanted a referendum without voting Tory ? Ever considered that IF Ed Miliband had backed the referendum, he could have got an extra 3 million votes ? At 12.3 million votes, Ed would have been PM.
Airfix Muse Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 971

4th February 2021, 05:03 PM	#509
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 50,334	Originally Posted by Vixen So 'Boris' Johnson visited Scotland in the middle of a pandemic. His approval rating there is low and over 50% want independence. Clearly, Johnson and Westminster are not popular there. So what does he do, he decides to go on a photo shoot, given all the pictures of him ham-fistedly trying to use some ancient multi-pipette and wearing science-y-looking goggles and a white coat. He looks like a toddler concentrating hard on hand eye-coordination. Perhaps he had had a skinful the night before. https://twitter.com/PhantomPower14/s...423280130?s=20 https://twitter.com/AngusRobertson/s...973597697?s=20 Question: What did this visit achieve? Aside from insulting the Scots, and becoming one of the most unpopular English leaders to visit Scotland since Longshanks/Edward the 1st, nothing.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

6th February 2021, 08:34 AM	#510
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 97,067	Apparently some good news: https://www.theguardian.com/politics...ed-paper-shows Suggestion that the disaster of the Tories so-called “opening up” NHS England may be at least in part reversed. Off course yet another major restructuring is the last thing the NHS needs, but we do need to get rid of the waste, costs and bureaucracy introduced by the Tories. Whether this “reversal” happens is of course very much up in the air at the moment.
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6th February 2021, 08:45 AM	#511
Airfix Muse Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 971	The sooner the NHS is directly funded and ADEQUATELY funded, the better. Scrap PFI.
Airfix Muse Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 971

6th February 2021, 08:49 AM	#512
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 97,067	Originally Posted by Airfix The sooner the NHS is directly funded and ADEQUATELY funded, the better. Scrap PFI. PFI has been scrapped.
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

6th February 2021, 03:14 PM	#513
Garrison Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: UK Posts: 5,531	Originally Posted by Airfix The sooner the NHS is directly funded and ADEQUATELY funded, the better. Scrap PFI. If you think Boris and co. plan for less private involvement in the NHS you are kidding yourself. This 'reform' will doubtless take the form of yet more pretend extra money while allowing a larger role for private health care to syphon off the profitable patients.
	__________________ So I've started a blog about my writing. Check it out at: http://fourth-planet-problem.blogspot.com/ And my first book is on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B077W322FX

6th February 2021, 03:23 PM	#514
Airfix Muse Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 971	Originally Posted by Darat PFI has been scrapped. Good.
Airfix Muse Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 971

6th February 2021, 03:24 PM	#515
Airfix Muse Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 971	Originally Posted by Garrison If you think Boris and co. plan for less private involvement in the NHS you are kidding yourself. I'm well aware how Boris and co are. That's why I don't vote for them. Originally Posted by Garrison This 'reform' will doubtless take the form of yet more pretend extra money while allowing a larger role for private health care to syphon off the profitable patients. No disagreement. But Boris and co will not always be in government, and anything they do in government can be undone by a future government.
Airfix Muse Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 971