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Old 7th January 2021, 08:23 AM   #481
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
You know why David Cameron won in 2015 though don't you ?

He offered a referendum.
Ed Miliband ruled out a referendum.

If both had offered the referendum, David Cameron would have lost.
So you had a referendum. Now everyone loses.
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Old 7th January 2021, 08:48 AM   #482
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
You know why David Cameron won in 2015 though don't you ?
Because England ALWAYS votes Tory?

Because Milliband ate a bacon butty?

Because the same racists and xenophobes who want to leave the EU were concerned about immigration in 2015?
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Old 7th January 2021, 08:56 AM   #483
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
You know why David Cameron won in 2015 though don't you ?

He offered a referendum.
Ed Miliband ruled out a referendum.

If both had offered the referendum, David Cameron would have lost.
This claim is unsubstantiated by evidence and is disputed.
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Old 7th January 2021, 11:23 AM   #484
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
This claim is unsubstantiated by evidence and is disputed.
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As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
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Old 7th January 2021, 11:26 AM   #485
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The difference between the UK and the USA is the attempted coup by storming the Capitol failed whereas in the UK Boris' illegal dissolving and proroguing of parliament succeeded.
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Old 7th January 2021, 02:32 PM   #486
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There seems to be a mass deletion of tweets by Tory MPs today.

looks like they are deleting Toby Young retweets and all the pro Trump ones too.
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Old 30th January 2021, 02:34 AM   #487
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So 'Boris' Johnson visited Scotland in the middle of a pandemic. His approval rating there is low and over 50% want independence. Clearly, Johnson and Westminster are not popular there. So what does he do, he decides to go on a photo shoot, given all the pictures of him ham-fistedly trying to use some ancient multi-pipette and wearing science-y-looking goggles and a white coat. He looks like a toddler concentrating hard on hand eye-coordination. Perhaps he had had a skinful the night before.

https://twitter.com/PhantomPower14/s...423280130?s=20

https://twitter.com/AngusRobertson/s...973597697?s=20


Question: What did this visit achieve?
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Old 30th January 2021, 03:20 AM   #488
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
So 'Boris' Johnson visited Scotland in the middle of a pandemic. His approval rating there is low and over 50% want independence. Clearly, Johnson and Westminster are not popular there. So what does he do, he decides to go on a photo shoot, given all the pictures of him ham-fistedly trying to use some ancient multi-pipette and wearing science-y-looking goggles and a white coat. He looks like a toddler concentrating hard on hand eye-coordination. Perhaps he had had a skinful the night before.

https://twitter.com/PhantomPower14/s...423280130?s=20

https://twitter.com/AngusRobertson/s...973597697?s=20


Question: What did this visit achieve?
Another 2 or 3% on the Yes vote hopefully.
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Old 30th January 2021, 03:36 AM   #489
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Another 2 or 3% on the Yes vote hopefully.
I'm sure he felt it was worth it so spend yet another day playing dress up. If there's one thing Mr Bent loves, it's playing dress up.
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Old 30th January 2021, 04:35 AM   #490
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Another 2 or 3% on the Yes vote hopefully.
So when you go, can someone please remember all the blether about "North of Hadrian's Wall..." and take us with you?

Seriously, you've even had better Tory leaders than we managed in Ingerland.

Mind, in reality for the likes of us, as someone I know in Berwick said to me a while back, Holyrood would probably ignore us as much as Westminster does. See also a conversation I had with someone in NW Sutherland shortly before the 2014 vote, in which he opined that being governed from the Central Belt would be no different from being governed from Westminster, as none of them know where Sutherland is...
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Old 30th January 2021, 04:43 AM   #491
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Originally Posted by Carrot Flower King View Post
So when you go, can someone please remember all the blether about "North of Hadrian's Wall..." and take us with you?

Seriously, you've even had better Tory leaders than we managed in Ingerland.

Mind, in reality for the likes of us, as someone I know in Berwick said to me a while back, Holyrood would probably ignore us as much as Westminster does. See also a conversation I had with someone in NW Sutherland shortly before the 2014 vote, in which he opined that being governed from the Central Belt would be no different from being governed from Westminster, as none of them know where Sutherland is...
I know this is a fairly common opinion in Scotland but not one I share. I've seen how Scotland is treated in the annals of UK Government at close quarters. Openly hostile at times.

Even being an afterthought would be an improvement to be honest.
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Old 30th January 2021, 11:03 AM   #492
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
I know this is a fairly common opinion in Scotland but not one I share. I've seen how Scotland is treated in the annals of UK Government at close quarters. Openly hostile at times.

Even being an afterthought would be an improvement to be honest.
Yeah, that's a view which many, including me, in some regions of England would share, especially the North East or Cornwall, IME.
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Old 30th January 2021, 12:03 PM   #493
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Originally Posted by Carrot Flower King View Post
Yeah, that's a view which many, including me, in some regions of England would share, especially the North East or Cornwall, IME.
Honestly when it comes to the Torys I don't think it's geographical, if you're not a millionaire in London they despise you just as much as if you're not a millionaire in Inverness.
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Old 31st January 2021, 04:22 AM   #494
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Originally Posted by Carrot Flower King View Post
Yeah, that's a view which many, including me, in some regions of England would share, especially the North East or Cornwall, IME.
Cornwall is starting to see a lot more investment; the fact that it became a very popular second home location for many of the London based “good and great” is entirely coincidental.
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Old 31st January 2021, 05:29 AM   #495
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
Honestly when it comes to the Torys I don't think it's geographical, if you're not a millionaire in London they despise you just as much as if you're not a millionaire in Inverness.
Up to a point:

https://twitter.com/Helenreflects/st...ffiliation-fun

See Walsall North
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Old 2nd February 2021, 09:27 AM   #496
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Another 2 or 3% on the Yes vote hopefully.
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Old 4th February 2021, 04:00 AM   #497
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Because England ALWAYS votes Tory?
^ Irrational racism against the English?

Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Because Milliband ate a bacon butty?
Nope, because Miliband's an idiot who ruled out a referendum on membership of the EU.
Being anti democratic is not a good position.

Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Because the same racists and xenophobes who want to leave the EU were concerned about immigration in 2015?
Having concerns about immigration is not necessarily racist, especially if it's about skills and numbers, rather than nationality / colour.

But hating the English and claiming they're always voting Tory, that is racism. It's a hatred of someone based on their nationality.

Take a good long hard look at yourself in the mirror.

May I remind you that from 1997-2005 the elections were dominated by Labour?
And before that, in 1974 Labour won, 1966 and 64, Labour won, 1945 and 1950, Labour won.
That wouldn't have been possible without English Labour constituencies.

Stop making assumptions about people.
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Old 4th February 2021, 04:18 AM   #498
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I am English, I agree that idiots always vote Tory even when they know it is against their own interest to do so.
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Old 4th February 2021, 04:40 AM   #499
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Well, the answer is to provide an alternative!!!!

Once there's an alternative, then people WON'T!
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Old 4th February 2021, 05:13 AM   #500
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And remember when the SNP were the Tartan Tories? That wasn't too long ago.
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Old 4th February 2021, 08:43 AM   #501
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I never called them that.
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Old 4th February 2021, 09:04 AM   #502
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^If (#501) you are referring to my #500, I wasn't even implying you did, just pointing out that it isn't too long since the SNP were regarded that way, mostly as that was how they behaved.
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Old 4th February 2021, 09:14 AM   #503
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
^ Irrational racism against the English?

Or perhaps a reasonable conclusion given that you have to go back to 2001 to find a general election in which the Tories didn’t get more votes in England than any other party. Contrast this with Scotland.
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Old 4th February 2021, 09:27 AM   #504
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2001? True but look what happened since.
Iraq war fiasco.
Banking crash while deficit spending.
Lisbon treaty fiasco.
Bigotgate (Gordon Brown calling Gillian Duffy a bigoted woman, then going to her home to apologise like a proper plonker).
Ed Miliband and his absurd anti referendum strategy which backfired.
The 'People's Vote' campaign, which backfired...
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Old 4th February 2021, 10:04 AM   #505
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
Ed Miliband and his absurd anti referendum strategy which backfired.

You seem rather confused about whose absurd referendum strategy backfired.
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Old 4th February 2021, 10:26 AM   #506
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Did Ed Miliband win the 2015 election ?
No.
Did the 2015 election lead to an in out referendum in 2016 ?
Yes.
Therefore his anti referendum strategy failed.
Are we in the EU ?
No.

What is there to be confused about ?

Nice avatar btw.

Don't take me disagreeing with your argument as "shooting the messenger", I'm a democrat, I'm here to debate, not hate.
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Old 4th February 2021, 10:58 AM   #507
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
Did Ed Miliband win the 2015 election ?
No.
Did the 2015 election lead to an in out referendum in 2016 ?
Yes.
Therefore his anti referendum strategy failed.
Are we in the EU ?
No.
Bizarre logic. You should look up the 'correlation does not imply causation' concept.

A short article analysing the background to the 2015 election and the 2016 referendum.
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Old 4th February 2021, 04:12 PM   #508
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He misses the referendum debate of 2011.
https://publications.parliament.uk/p...11024-0002.htm

There had been a petition signed by over 100,000 people calling for one.
David Cameron instructed his MPs to vote against holding one and the first time, the referendum was voted down, but petitions and debates kept coming.

The UK Independence Party started growing and became a threat.

Conservative Councillors were defecting.
Suzanne Evans being one of the more famous examples.

The spectre of a large chunk of Conservative MPs defecting was something he definitely did not want and committed to a referendum.
In the 2014 EU election he stated Labour and the Lib Dems won't, UKIP can't, the Conservatives will.

The defections of Douglas Carswell and Mark Reckless occurred later that year after he had already committed himself by manifesto to holding such a referendum and no more MPs or MEPs followed.

But Ed Miliband, he really dropped the ball in 2014, and it cost him in 2015.
There were 4,376,635 UKIP voters in 2014, whose votes Ed needed to tap into in 2015.

In 2015
11,299,609 voted Conservative
9,347,273 voted Labour
3,881,099 voted UKIP.
Some of those UKIP voters had switched to the Tories, but most did not.

Ever considered that it was because they wanted a referendum without voting Tory ?

Ever considered that IF Ed Miliband had backed the referendum, he could have got an extra 3 million votes ?
At 12.3 million votes, Ed would have been PM.
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Old 4th February 2021, 05:03 PM   #509
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
So 'Boris' Johnson visited Scotland in the middle of a pandemic. His approval rating there is low and over 50% want independence. Clearly, Johnson and Westminster are not popular there. So what does he do, he decides to go on a photo shoot, given all the pictures of him ham-fistedly trying to use some ancient multi-pipette and wearing science-y-looking goggles and a white coat. He looks like a toddler concentrating hard on hand eye-coordination. Perhaps he had had a skinful the night before.

https://twitter.com/PhantomPower14/s...423280130?s=20

https://twitter.com/AngusRobertson/s...973597697?s=20


Question: What did this visit achieve?
Aside from insulting the Scots, and becoming one of the most unpopular English leaders to visit Scotland since Longshanks/Edward the 1st, nothing.
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Old 6th February 2021, 08:34 AM   #510
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Apparently some good news: https://www.theguardian.com/politics...ed-paper-shows

Suggestion that the disaster of the Tories so-called “opening up” NHS England may be at least in part reversed.

Off course yet another major restructuring is the last thing the NHS needs, but we do need to get rid of the waste, costs and bureaucracy introduced by the Tories. Whether this “reversal” happens is of course very much up in the air at the moment.
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Old 6th February 2021, 08:45 AM   #511
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The sooner the NHS is directly funded and ADEQUATELY funded, the better.
Scrap PFI.
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Old 6th February 2021, 08:49 AM   #512
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
The sooner the NHS is directly funded and ADEQUATELY funded, the better.
Scrap PFI.
PFI has been scrapped.
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Old 6th February 2021, 03:14 PM   #513
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
The sooner the NHS is directly funded and ADEQUATELY funded, the better.
Scrap PFI.
If you think Boris and co. plan for less private involvement in the NHS you are kidding yourself. This 'reform' will doubtless take the form of yet more pretend extra money while allowing a larger role for private health care to syphon off the profitable patients.
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Old 6th February 2021, 03:23 PM   #514
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
PFI has been scrapped.
Good.
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Old 6th February 2021, 03:24 PM   #515
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
If you think Boris and co. plan for less private involvement in the NHS you are kidding yourself.
I'm well aware how Boris and co are. That's why I don't vote for them.

Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
This 'reform' will doubtless take the form of yet more pretend extra money while allowing a larger role for private health care to syphon off the profitable patients.
No disagreement.

But Boris and co will not always be in government, and anything they do in government can be undone by a future government.
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Old 7th February 2021, 05:18 AM   #516
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They are scrapping the ridiculous idea that local GPs should be in charge of the budget and choose which hospital should treat the patients they refer.
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Old 7th February 2021, 05:58 AM   #517
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
They are scrapping the ridiculous idea that local GPs should be in charge of the budget and choose which hospital should treat the patients they refer.
Which meant the budget has ended up in the hands of private companies not GP practice partnerships. That is why when I get a referral appointment now it takes 2 extra letters.

I get one from the GP saying I’m being referred and I will get a letter from such-a-such company, I then get the letter from that company saying I will get an appointment at whatever clinic/hospital they have contracted with, then I get one from the clinic/hospital with the date and time of the appointment.

That used to be one letter from the clinic/hospital giving me my appointment date and time.
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Old 7th February 2021, 11:43 AM   #518
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Oh dear me, what a surprise yet more of good old “never interferes with politics” Queenie interfering with legislation for her own benefit…. https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...private-wealth
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Old 8th February 2021, 05:56 AM   #519
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^ Have a read of Norman Baker's ...And What Do You Do? (if you haven't already) for more dismantling of the "apolitical" monarchy myth.

The sooner we get shot of the inbred robber barons the better.
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Old 8th February 2021, 06:16 AM   #520
Carrot Flower King
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And notice that it was the Heath government who first tried to introduce that bill: I'm struggling with the idea that any Tory government since would have done so...
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