How they do it in the Netherlands

bruto · 15th January 2021, 09:35 PM

After all the brouhaha in Washington, I was amused to see a little item in the news about how they do it in The Netherlands.

It seems that in a massive bureaucratic messup, they wrongly assessed penalties on about ten thousand poor and immigrant families for welfare fraud which turned out to be untrue. So did they double down on the lies, blame it on someone else, send in the troops, hunker in their bunkers? No, they resigned. The prime minister went personally to the King to tender his resignation...on his bicycle.

Ulf Nereng · 15th January 2021, 11:17 PM

Ah, old-fashioned honor! We don't see that too often these days.

psionl0 · 15th January 2021, 11:47 PM

That's a good clue that the PM in Holland wasn't Donald Trump.

Lukraak_Sisser · 16th January 2021, 12:25 AM

Well yes, BUT they did try to cover up the fact about the massive bureaucratic errors for years hoping the people who were affected would give up.
So it's not all as rosy at it seems.

There is also the fact that we were going have elections in two months anyway so it's not like there will be much consequences. Speaking of, we'll probably start getting election flyers at some point soon.

zooterkin · 16th January 2021, 01:00 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

That's a good clue that the PM in Holland wasn't Donald Trump.

Nor Boris Johnson.

psionl0 · 16th January 2021, 05:03 AM

Originally Posted by zooterkin

Nor Boris Johnson.

I don't know about that. It seems to me that comparing Boris Johnson to Donald Trump is like comparing a minor scratch to a gaping wound.

theprestige · 16th January 2021, 06:33 AM

If the government resigns, doesn't that mean that the country is left in the hands of the very same bureaucracy that screwed up in the first place, until a new government is formed?

Lukraak_Sisser · 16th January 2021, 06:45 AM

Originally Posted by theprestige

If the government resigns, doesn't that mean that the country is left in the hands of the very same bureaucracy that screwed up in the first place, until a new government is formed?

No, the resigned ministers stay in place as a caretaker government until new elections are held, but are constrained by a lot.
Any truly important decisions need to ratified by parliament, but day to day decisions can still be made.
That prevents a dismissed government from pushing trough pet projects or major legislation before the new government takes over.

I know it's shocking, but most European nations have similar laws to prevent an outgoing government from sabotaging the incoming one.

theprestige · 16th January 2021, 06:47 AM

Ah, so it's more of a less work, same pay situation?

Lukraak_Sisser · 16th January 2021, 06:51 AM

As an addendum, it's unlikely the main governing parties will feel the backlash all this much.
The center-right party that's been in every government for decades whose PM this is has as main rivals two populist parties that mainly run on an 'immigrants are bad' platform.
Given that the main victims of the scandal were immigrants they are not in the best position to capitalize on this.

Lukraak_Sisser · 16th January 2021, 06:54 AM

Originally Posted by theprestige

Ah, so it's more of a less work, same pay situation?

Given how much work running a country is, I doubt that. It just prevents vindictive losers from burning down the country during the transition process.

And certain current events show how valuable such precautions are in my opinion.

zooterkin · 16th January 2021, 08:06 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

I don't know about that. It seems to me that comparing Boris Johnson to Donald Trump is like comparing a minor scratch to a gaping wound.

I was actually comparing Johnson to the Dutch PM. Can you see Johnson doing anything on a point of honour, or admitting a mistake?

Chanakya · 16th January 2021, 08:08 AM

Originally Posted by zooterkin

Nor Boris Johnson.

Originally Posted by psionl0

I don't know about that. It seems to me that comparing Boris Johnson to Donald Trump is like comparing a minor scratch to a gaping wound.

This.

And besides, when it comes to leaving gracefully when shown the door vs hanging on for dear life until your minders drag you out kicking and screaming, I don't think we've reason to think Boris Johnson is necessarily the latter type. He could be, but we don't know that, yet.

As far as leaving readily, take David Cameron. I guess many in your country loathe the man, as having been the architect of the whole (probably entirely unnecessary) Brexit mess, and what's more many could see his resigning when he did as callously dumping his own mess on to others, as cowardice, whatever: but at least he wasn't Trumpian in terms of refusing to leave despite being kicked, repeatedly and hard, on the backside. Exactly the opposite, in fact, as far as specifically that part.

If that kind of thing's a virtue, I guess Boris Johnson is better than Trump.

(That's a lot of reasoning to arrive at a truism, I realize. I suppose it's safe to say, without needing any detailed reasoning, that practically anyone at all is better than Trump.)

psionl0 · 16th January 2021, 09:21 AM

Originally Posted by zooterkin

I was actually comparing Johnson to the Dutch PM. Can you see Johnson doing anything on a point of honour, or admitting a mistake?

Boris might not compare well to the Dutch PM but to drag him into the same category as the Hair (as you did) is equivalent to asserting that there is no difference between describing the Earth as flat or as spherical because both descriptions are wrong.

Wildy · 20th January 2021, 02:46 AM

Could you imagine if that happened in Australia over Robodebt?

psionl0 · 21st January 2021, 01:09 PM

Originally Posted by Wildy

Could you imagine if that happened in Australia over Robodebt?

Not even if I was tripping.

15th January 2021, 09:35 PM	#1
bruto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy Posts: 27,754	How they do it in the Netherlands After all the brouhaha in Washington, I was amused to see a little item in the news about how they do it in The Netherlands. It seems that in a massive bureaucratic messup, they wrongly assessed penalties on about ten thousand poor and immigrant families for welfare fraud which turned out to be untrue. So did they double down on the lies, blame it on someone else, send in the troops, hunker in their bunkers? No, they resigned. The prime minister went personally to the King to tender his resignation...on his bicycle.
	__________________ I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver) Quand il dit "cuic" le moineau croit tout dire. (When he's tweeted the sparrow thinks he's said it all. (Jules Renard)

15th January 2021, 11:47 PM	#3
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 17,008	That's a good clue that the PM in Holland wasn't Donald Trump.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

16th January 2021, 01:00 AM	#5
zooterkin Nitpicking dilettante Administrator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Berkshire, mostly Posts: 48,471	Originally Posted by psionl0 That's a good clue that the PM in Holland wasn't Donald Trump. Nor Boris Johnson.
	__________________ The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232 Ezekiel 23:20

16th January 2021, 05:03 AM	#6
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 17,008	Originally Posted by zooterkin Nor Boris Johnson. I don't know about that. It seems to me that comparing Boris Johnson to Donald Trump is like comparing a minor scratch to a gaping wound.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

16th January 2021, 08:06 AM	#12
zooterkin Nitpicking dilettante Administrator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Berkshire, mostly Posts: 48,471	Originally Posted by psionl0 I don't know about that. It seems to me that comparing Boris Johnson to Donald Trump is like comparing a minor scratch to a gaping wound. I was actually comparing Johnson to the Dutch PM. Can you see Johnson doing anything on a point of honour, or admitting a mistake?
	__________________ The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232 Ezekiel 23:20

15th January 2021, 11:17 PM	#2
Ulf Nereng Muse Join Date: Sep 2019 Location: Norway Posts: 570	Ah, old-fashioned honor! We don't see that too often these days.

16th January 2021, 12:25 AM	#4
Lukraak_Sisser Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 3,965	Well yes, BUT they did try to cover up the fact about the massive bureaucratic errors for years hoping the people who were affected would give up. So it's not all as rosy at it seems. There is also the fact that we were going have elections in two months anyway so it's not like there will be much consequences. Speaking of, we'll probably start getting election flyers at some point soon.

16th January 2021, 06:33 AM	#7
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 49,664	If the government resigns, doesn't that mean that the country is left in the hands of the very same bureaucracy that screwed up in the first place, until a new government is formed?

16th January 2021, 06:45 AM	#8
Lukraak_Sisser Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 3,965	Originally Posted by theprestige If the government resigns, doesn't that mean that the country is left in the hands of the very same bureaucracy that screwed up in the first place, until a new government is formed? No, the resigned ministers stay in place as a caretaker government until new elections are held, but are constrained by a lot. Any truly important decisions need to ratified by parliament, but day to day decisions can still be made. That prevents a dismissed government from pushing trough pet projects or major legislation before the new government takes over. I know it's shocking, but most European nations have similar laws to prevent an outgoing government from sabotaging the incoming one.

16th January 2021, 06:47 AM	#9
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 49,664	Ah, so it's more of a less work, same pay situation?

16th January 2021, 06:51 AM	#10
Lukraak_Sisser Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 3,965	As an addendum, it's unlikely the main governing parties will feel the backlash all this much. The center-right party that's been in every government for decades whose PM this is has as main rivals two populist parties that mainly run on an 'immigrants are bad' platform. Given that the main victims of the scandal were immigrants they are not in the best position to capitalize on this.

16th January 2021, 06:54 AM	#11
Lukraak_Sisser Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 3,965	Originally Posted by theprestige Ah, so it's more of a less work, same pay situation? Given how much work running a country is, I doubt that. It just prevents vindictive losers from burning down the country during the transition process. And certain current events show how valuable such precautions are in my opinion.

16th January 2021, 08:08 AM	#13
Chanakya Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 2,599	Originally Posted by zooterkin Nor Boris Johnson. Originally Posted by psionl0 I don't know about that. It seems to me that comparing Boris Johnson to Donald Trump is like comparing a minor scratch to a gaping wound. This. And besides, when it comes to leaving gracefully when shown the door vs hanging on for dear life until your minders drag you out kicking and screaming, I don't think we've reason to think Boris Johnson is necessarily the latter type. He could be, but we don't know that, yet. As far as leaving readily, take David Cameron. I guess many in your country loathe the man, as having been the architect of the whole (probably entirely unnecessary) Brexit mess, and what's more many could see his resigning when he did as callously dumping his own mess on to others, as cowardice, whatever: but at least he wasn't Trumpian in terms of refusing to leave despite being kicked, repeatedly and hard, on the backside. Exactly the opposite, in fact, as far as specifically that part. If that kind of thing's a virtue, I guess Boris Johnson is better than Trump. (That's a lot of reasoning to arrive at a truism, I realize. I suppose it's safe to say, without needing any detailed reasoning, that practically anyone at all is better than Trump.)
Chanakya Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 2,599

16th January 2021, 09:21 AM	#14
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 17,008	Originally Posted by zooterkin I was actually comparing Johnson to the Dutch PM. Can you see Johnson doing anything on a point of honour, or admitting a mistake? Boris might not compare well to the Dutch PM but to drag him into the same category as the Hair (as you did) is equivalent to asserting that there is no difference between describing the Earth as flat or as spherical because both descriptions are wrong.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

20th January 2021, 02:46 AM	#15
Wildy Adelaidean Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 11,020	Could you imagine if that happened in Australia over Robodebt?
	__________________

21st January 2021, 01:09 PM	#16
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 17,008	Originally Posted by Wildy Could you imagine if that happened in Australia over Robodebt? Not even if I was tripping.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975