[Merged] Australian Politics - The Morrison Period - Page 4

arthwollipot · 19th September 2018, 07:21 PM

Peter Dutton avoided the No Confidence motion by one vote.

Sideroxylon · 19th September 2018, 07:41 PM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Peter Dutton avoided the No Confidence motion by one vote.

Getting by on the skin of your teeth doesn’t inspire much confidence.

arthwollipot · 19th September 2018, 09:22 PM

Originally Posted by Sideroxylon

Getting by on the skin of your teeth doesn’t inspire much confidence.

The skin of his teeth is enough.

rjh01 · 20th September 2018, 12:55 AM

Quote:

The Greens-led motion to suspend the parliament and bring on a vote was defeated in a 67 – 68 split, with no members of the government crossing the floor.

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/peter-du...led-parliament

Predictable, but sad. On the other hand the Government has now associated itself with what he has done. They are digging themselves their own grave.

lionking · 20th September 2018, 02:09 AM

******* Morrison has found $4.5 billion to bribe Catholic and independent schools. Of course the most wealthy private schools are squealing because they are not getting as much as they wanted.

This stuff fills me with despair. And Labor is no better. I dream of the day when the government only funds government schools and when people who want “elite” schools find the way to fully fund that choice.

Will not happen in my lifetime. Bloody hell, will never happen.

Damien Evans · 20th September 2018, 05:28 AM

Originally Posted by lionking

******* Morrison has found $4.5 billion to bribe Catholic and independent schools. Of course the most wealthy private schools are squealing because they are not getting as much as they wanted.

This stuff fills me with despair. And Labor is no better. I dream of the day when the government only funds government schools and when people who want “elite” schools find the way to fully fund that choice.

Will not happen in my lifetime. Bloody hell, will never happen.

Not true.

lionking · 20th September 2018, 05:43 AM

Originally Posted by Damien Evans

Not true.

On school funding, it is true. Plibesek said on TV today that Kabor would provide more funding to Catholic schools than the Coalition. On this issue, Labor is the enemy of state schools.

psionl0 · 20th September 2018, 10:12 AM

Originally Posted by lionking

On school funding, it is true. Plibesek said on TV today that Kabor would provide more funding to Catholic schools than the Coalition. On this issue, Labor is the enemy of state schools.

I happen to agree with you on this. The Catholic schools were fully behind the disastrous "Outcomes Based Education" that state Labor governments attempted to foist on the public. They obviously don't want to lose that sort of support.

The democratic answer would be educational vouchers. Those parents who wished could use them for fully funded public education. Those who were prepared to pay more could use the vouchers as part payment for whatever private school they wished to send their children to. Either way, each child would get equal assistance from the government.

It will never happen of course. Politics is about buying favours from influential support groups.

quadraginta · 20th September 2018, 03:26 PM

Originally Posted by psionl0

<snip>

The democratic answer would be educational vouchers. Those parents who wished could use them for fully funded public education. Those who were prepared to pay more could use the vouchers as part payment for whatever private school they wished to send their children to. Either way, each child would get equal assistance from the government.

It will never happen of course. Politics is about buying favours from influential support groups.

Maybe it will work out different for you folks Down Under, but the result of school vouchers here (a solution always popular with our fundamentalist crowd that don't want their kids to go to schools which teach about things like evolution) was to drain much needed funds from the public school systems.

Not coincidentally, it has also accelerated the increase in de facto segregation in the schools, although that might not be as much of a problem in Oz.

lionking · 20th September 2018, 03:49 PM

Originally Posted by quadraginta

Maybe it will work out different for you folks Down Under, but the result of school vouchers here (a solution always popular with out fundamentalist crowd that don't want their kids to go to schools which teach about things like evolution) was to drain much needed funds from the public school systems.

Not coincidentally, it has also accelerated the increase in de facto segregation in the schools, although that might not be as much of a problem in Oz.

That’s how it would also work down here if implemented.

psionl0 · 20th September 2018, 08:26 PM

Originally Posted by quadraginta

Maybe it will work out different for you folks Down Under, but the result of school vouchers here (a solution always popular with our fundamentalist crowd that don't want their kids to go to schools which teach about things like evolution) was to drain much needed funds from the public school systems.

Why would it drain funds from the public school system. The government already spends more per student on (select) private schools than it does on public schools.

quadraginta · 20th September 2018, 08:36 PM

Originally Posted by psionl0

Why would it drain funds from the public school system. The government already spends more per student on (select) private schools than it does on public schools.

Are all the private schools "(select)"?

How about the unselct ones that will spring up like mushrooms after a rain as soon as they can start collecting income from school vouchers? Nearly all aimed at white conservative fundamentalist parents.

Because that's what happened here.

They go bust regularly after it is shown that they aren't maintaining minimum scholastic standards, and then pop back up again under marginally different names.

Enjoy.

psionl0 · 20th September 2018, 11:13 PM

Originally Posted by quadraginta

Are all the private schools "(select)"?

How about the unselct ones that will spring up like mushrooms after a rain as soon as they can start collecting income from school vouchers? Nearly all aimed at white conservative fundamentalist parents.

Because that's what happened here.

They go bust regularly after it is shown that they aren't maintaining minimum scholastic standards, and then pop back up again under marginally different names.

Maybe in the US you can just stick a sign on a building that says "SCHOOL" and collect the admissions fees but in Australia there are more hoops to go through before a school (private or public) can admit students. In particular, they can not teach to an unapproved curriculum (even home schooled students have to be taught to an approved guideline).

Not that I particularly think that what happens in the US is necessarily a bad thing. Anything that takes choice out of the hands of the government and puts it back in the hands of the individual is a good thing (caveats apply of course).

lionking · 21st September 2018, 01:14 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

Not that I particularly think that what happens in the US is necessarily a bad thing. Anything that takes choice out of the hands of the government and puts it back in the hands of the individual is a good thing (caveats apply of course).

My choice is a Porsche and I demand a voucher to help me buy one.

(This is not at all a false analogy. Some of the private schools parents demand funding for are Porsche-like).

psionl0 · 21st September 2018, 01:36 AM

Originally Posted by lionking

My choice is a Porsche and I demand a voucher to help me buy one.

(This is not at all a false analogy. Some of the private schools parents demand funding for are Porsche-like).

Yeah right!

Everybody gets a free government issued car now. Under a voucher system they could have the choice to continue receiving their government issued car now or use it towards the payment of a privately manufactured car. Of course under a voucher system, the manufacturers wouldn't get government subsidies - only the consumer does.

Do you see how silly your analogy is yet?

lionking · 21st September 2018, 02:39 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

Yeah right!

Everybody gets a free government issued car now. Under a voucher system they could have the choice to continue receiving their government issued car now or use it towards the payment of a privately manufactured car. Of course under a voucher system, the manufacturers wouldn't get government subsidies - only the consumer does.

Do you see how silly your analogy is yet?

Its your support for vouchers which is silly. Vouchers for roads next? Why should I, living in the inner city, pay for roads in the burbs? I demand a voucher to pave my lane way in gold!

psionl0 · 21st September 2018, 03:20 AM

Originally Posted by lionking

Its your support for vouchers which is silly. Vouchers for roads next? Why should I, living in the inner city, pay for roads in the burbs? I demand a voucher to pave my lane way in gold!

Sillier and sillier. What roads are privately funded?

Thor 2 · 21st September 2018, 01:40 PM

Originally Posted by lionking

This stuff fills me with despair. And Labor is no better. I dream of the day when the government only funds government schools and when people who want “elite” schools find the way to fully fund that choice.

Will not happen in my lifetime. Bloody hell, will never happen.

I share your dream but am more optimistic. The demise of religion may pave the way in the future. There has been the perception that better education is to be found in private schools, although contrary to results often, and then there is this notion that many parents have, that some moral benefits are to be had by their kids getting that religious injection.

quadraginta · 21st September 2018, 03:38 PM

Originally Posted by psionl0

Maybe in the US you can just stick a sign on a building that says "SCHOOL" and collect the admissions fees but in Australia there are more hoops to go through before a school (private or public) can admit students. In particular, they can not teach to an unapproved curriculum (even home schooled students have to be taught to an approved guideline).

We have all those hoops, and more. Did you miss the part about the frequency with which they get shut down?

Quote:

Not that I particularly think that what happens in the US is necessarily a bad thing. Anything that takes choice out of the hands of the government and puts it back in the hands of the individual is a good thing (caveats apply of course).

So, not really "anything".

psionl0 · 21st September 2018, 07:58 PM

Originally Posted by quadraginta

We have all those hoops, and more. Did you miss the part about the frequency with which they get shut down?

So the vetting process isn't all that good. That just means that parents need to be more vigilant about their choice of schools.

Or do you think the choice of schools should be the government's job (track record on vetting process not withstanding)?

Originally Posted by quadraginta

So, not really "anything".

Just forestalling those idiots who would come back with "So you think that the choice to kill somebody should rest with the individual".

lionking · 21st September 2018, 08:53 PM

Originally Posted by psionl0

Sillier and sillier. What roads are privately funded?

You really don’t have much of a clue about how things work. Plenty of roads are privately funded. Roads in new developments to start with. My road is a gazetted private road. It was built by the owner and we will have to pay to get it paved? Why are you against my aspiration to have my road paved? I demand my government voucher!

psionl0 · 21st September 2018, 09:00 PM

Originally Posted by lionking

You really don’t have much of a clue about how things work. Plenty of roads are privately funded. Roads in new developments to start with. My road is a gazetted private road. It was built by the owner and we will have to pay to get it paved? Why are you against my aspiration to have my road paved? I demand my government voucher!

Assuming that you are correct then your argument is that the government should pay for part or all of the cost of paving your private road.

If you own the private road entirely (or if the co-owners agree) then there should be nothing to stop you paving your road with gold. However, the extra cost should be borne by you and not the government.

lionking · 21st September 2018, 09:42 PM

Originally Posted by psionl0

If you own the private road entirely (or if the co-owners agree) then there should be nothing to stop you paving your road with gold. However, the extra cost should be borne by you and not the government.

And the same should apply to education. You can choose the Rolls Royce of schools for your children, with boat sheds, sporting fields galore, teacher ratios to kill for, etc. But if you make this choice over universally available public schools, you should pay for it.

Have you looked at how the government is now funding private schools? Not based on the average income of where parents live, but taxable incomes. I know that this will shock you, but wealthy people find ways of minimising income. I know someone who pays $40k in fees for two daughters. He boasts that his taxable income is $48k. Every conceivable (and a lot of inconceivable) expense is put through his company. In some years he has recorded no taxable income at all, while miracously maintaining his large, expensive house and his beach house.

Is this even remotely fair to you?

psionl0 · 22nd September 2018, 01:36 AM

Originally Posted by lionking

And the same should apply to education. You can choose the Rolls Royce of schools for your children, with boat sheds, sporting fields galore, teacher ratios to kill for, etc. But if you make this choice over universally available public schools, you should pay for it.

That is exactly what I have been arguing.

Originally Posted by lionking

Have you looked at how the government is now funding private schools? Not based on the average income of where parents live, but taxable incomes. I know that this will shock you, but wealthy people find ways of minimising income. I know someone who pays $40k in fees for two daughters. He boasts that his taxable income is $48k. Every conceivable (and a lot of inconceivable) expense is put through his company. In some years he has recorded no taxable income at all, while miracously maintaining his large, expensive house and his beach house.

Is this even remotely fair to you?

Of course not. As I have been arguing, any government subsidy should be based on a per student basis and not on the income of the parents nor on the type of school the student goes to. That is what a voucher system means.

lionking · 22nd September 2018, 02:01 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

That is exactly what I have been arguing.

Of course not. As I have been arguing, any government subsidy should be based on a per student basis and not on the income of the parents nor on the type of school the student goes to. That is what a voucher system means.

How on earth does this follow? Why should the government provide material support for Catholic and independent schools? You are all over the place in this thread.

psionl0 · 22nd September 2018, 03:22 AM

Originally Posted by lionking

How on earth does this follow? Why should the government provide material support for Catholic and independent schools? You are all over the place in this thread.

You can't possibly be that stupid.

I have been consistent all the way through. Parents should get a subsidy for each student that they have to send to school (regardless of the school). They can either take advantage of free public education or pay extra to sent their children to a private school of their choice.

lionking · 22nd September 2018, 04:15 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

You can't possibly be that stupid.

I have been consistent all the way through. Parents should get a subsidy for each student that they have to send to school (regardless of the school). They can either take advantage of free public education or pay extra to sent their children to a private school of their choice.

No, you are not going to get away with this. Vouchers are simply a way of entrenching private schools against state schools. They are already entrenched in a way now, but the idea of giving James Packer a cheque to hand over to Cranbrook to help educate his kids is absurd.

psionl0 · 22nd September 2018, 04:59 AM

Originally Posted by lionking

Vouchers are simply a way of entrenching private schools against state schools.

You have failed miserably to demonstrate that this is the case (assuming that you know what I am talking about).

I'm guessing that you think that private education should not get any government money at all. This would be a serious detriment to lower income parents who would be forced into the public system.

Giving subsidies to schools rather than parents makes no sense to me whatsoever (but is the natural preference of politicians).

lionking · 22nd September 2018, 05:54 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

You have failed miserably to demonstrate that this is the case (assuming that you know what I am talking about).

I'm guessing that you think that private education should not get any government money at all. This would be a serious detriment to lower income parents who would be forced into the public system.

Giving subsidies to schools rather than parents makes no sense to me whatsoever (but is the natural preference of politicians).

What???

I sometimes wonder if you even live in Australia. Firstly, I do think that private education should not get any government funding at all. State Aid is an artefact of the 1950s when the Libs did an unholy deal with the DLP, which kept them in power for many, many years. By the time Whitlam gained power, it was entrenched. Other nations don’t fund private schools. Why should Australia?

People forced into the public system because they can’t afford the extortionate fees of private schools? Boo bloody hoo. Like everything else, including choice of car, house, running shoes etc etc, if you can’t afford it, bad luck. Don’t expect other taxpayers to subsidise you.

psionl0 · 22nd September 2018, 07:48 AM

Originally Posted by lionking

People forced into the public system because they can’t afford the extortionate fees of private schools? Boo bloody hoo. Like everything else, including choice of car, house, running shoes etc etc, if you can’t afford it, bad luck. Don’t expect other taxpayers to subsidise you.

That's a remarkably elitist position for you to take. It explains a lot.

quadraginta · 22nd September 2018, 01:37 PM

Originally Posted by psionl0

So the vetting process isn't all that good.

The schools can't be vetted until there is some record of how well they have performed.

There are standards which must be satisfied prior to a school opening for students, but that doesn't provide any opportunity to evaluate their performance.

Quote:

That just means that parents need to be more vigilant about their choice of schools.

You seem to be oblivious to the problem. It is the parents' concept of "vigilance" which is creating the market for many of these schools.

Parents being vigilant that their children are not exposed to things which their religious beliefs disapprove of, like teaching that evolution is an established scientific fact, or the presence of too many (i.e. any) minorities in the classrooms.

Quote:

Or do you think the choice of schools should be the government's job (track record on vetting process not withstanding)?

<snip>

See above. For the government to evaluate a school's performance it is necessary for the school to first have performed.

Subsequent to that they seem to be doing pretty well with vetting, as is demonstrated by the number of schools which fail to maintain their certification.

As far as choice is concerned, I think that if parents want to send their children to private schools that's just dandy, but I don't think it should be to the detriment of the public school system, which is what happens with school vouchers.

psionl0 · 22nd September 2018, 06:02 PM

Originally Posted by quadraginta

As far as choice is concerned, I think that if parents want to send their children to private schools that's just dandy, but I don't think it should be to the detriment of the public school system, which is what happens with school vouchers.

You never explained that. Instead, you went into a distraction about private schools going bust.

So I will ask again, how is it that giving parents education vouchers takes money away from the public system but giving private schools tax payers' money doesn't?

quadraginta · 22nd September 2018, 06:30 PM

Originally Posted by psionl0

You never explained that. Instead, you went into a distraction about private schools going bust.

So I will ask again, how is it that giving parents education vouchers takes money away from the public system but giving private schools tax payers' money doesn't?

The money spent on vouchers comes from the budgets of the local school districts.

The private schools generally charge more than the amount of the voucher, and often have additional sources of income.

Public schools don't.

This ends up leaving the public schools with growing budget deficits.

Quote:

Do charter schools, school vouchers and online schools really hurt our neighborhood public schools? You bet they do.

Charter schools, vouchers, and other “choice” options redirect public money to privately operated education enterprises, which often operate for profit. That harms public schools by siphoning off students, resources, and funding while reducing the ability of your public schools to serve the full range of student needs and interests.

This is why

The idea that “the money should follow the child” when students leave a public school for other options is a bad financial decision.

Schools have “stranded costs”. When a public school loses a percentage of students to charter schools or a voucher program, the school can’t reduce costs by an equivalent percent. The school still must pay the same utility, maintenance, transportation, and food services costs. The school must still carry the salary and benefit costs of administrative staff, custodial services, and cafeteria workers. The school may not be able to reduce teaching staff because the attrition will occur randomly across various grade levels, leaving class sizes only marginally reduced.

Students aren’t a “one-off” expense. The cost to educate each individual student varies a lot. Students with disabilities or who don’t speak English as their first language often cost significantly more to educate. So as a school loses students, it may often find itself left with a larger percentage of its highest-cost students.

When schools lose students, they have to cut services. Because schools can’t reduce expenses incrementally, they cut support staff – such as a reading specialist or librarian – and courses – such as art and music – that engage the diverse needs and interests of students.

The second to the last paragraph deserves more comment.

Voucher programs vary in details by state, but in general they are not required to accept all applicants, the way public schools are. This means they can cherry pick students for any number of reasons.

This has led to an entirely new era of "white flight", as well as examples like this one from Indiana.

Quote:

In its online admissions packet, Lighthouse Christian Academy in Bloomington lays out its expectations of students. It lists "behaviors prohibited in the Bible" to include "homosexual or bisexual activity or any form of sexual immorality" and "practicing alternate gender identity or any other identity or behavior that violates God's ordained distinctions between the two sexes, male and female."

And the prejudices are not limited to the children.

Quote:

The school then makes clear that, "in situations in which the home life violates these standards, LCA reserves the right, within its sole discretion, to refuse admission of an applicant or to discontinue enrollment of a student."

So, no "Mom and Mom" or "Dad and Dad" families need apply. Etc.

Quote:

Lighthouse received $665,400 in state voucher dollars this year.

The 2011 voucher law prohibited the state from regulating "curriculum content, religious instruction or activities, classroom teaching, teacher and staff hiring requirements, and other activities carried out by the eligible school."

Damien Evans · 22nd September 2018, 09:17 PM

Originally Posted by lionking

On school funding, it is true. Plibesek said on TV today that Kabor would provide more funding to Catholic schools than the Coalition. On this issue, Labor is the enemy of state schools.

They'll also provide a lot more funding to state schools than the coalition.

psionl0 · 22nd September 2018, 10:07 PM

Originally Posted by quadraginta

The money spent on vouchers comes from the budgets of the local school districts. . . . . . . .

Not a single word in that entire post about why money given to private schools doesn't also reduce the budgets of local school districts.

rjh01 · 23rd September 2018, 01:38 AM

Originally Posted by Damien Evans

They'll also provide a lot more funding to state schools than the coalition.

Where is the money coming from?

quadraginta · 23rd September 2018, 08:38 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

Not a single word in that entire post about why money given to private schools doesn't also reduce the budgets of local school districts.

Probably because there was a clear explanation of why it does reduce local public school budgets.

psionl0 · 23rd September 2018, 09:59 AM

Originally Posted by quadraginta

Probably because there was a clear explanation of why it does reduce local public school budgets.

Nope. You focused exclusively on vouchers.

Damien Evans · 23rd September 2018, 10:11 AM

Originally Posted by rjh01

Where is the money coming from?

Not cutting taxes for big companies.

Thor 2 · 23rd September 2018, 02:23 PM

Originally Posted by lionking

People forced into the public system because they can’t afford the extortionate fees of private schools? Boo bloody hoo. Like everything else, including choice of car, house, running shoes etc etc, if you can’t afford it, bad luck. Don’t expect other taxpayers to subsidise you.

Originally Posted by psionl0

That's a remarkably elitist position for you to take. It explains a lot.

I think you mis-understand lionking - or pretend to? His position is not elitist. He is saying the average tax payer should not have to foot the bill, for the those who wish to send their kids to private schools. I agree 100%.

19th September 2018, 07:21 PM	#121
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 70,273	Peter Dutton avoided the No Confidence motion by one vote.
	__________________ Please scream inside your heart.

19th September 2018, 09:22 PM	#123
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 70,273	Originally Posted by Sideroxylon Getting by on the skin of your teeth doesn’t inspire much confidence. The skin of his teeth is enough.
	__________________ Please scream inside your heart.

20th September 2018, 12:55 AM	#124
rjh01 Gentleman of leisure Tagger Join Date: May 2005 Location: Flying around in the sky Posts: 26,516	Quote: The Greens-led motion to suspend the parliament and bring on a vote was defeated in a 67 – 68 split, with no members of the government crossing the floor. https://www.sbs.com.au/news/peter-du...led-parliament Predictable, but sad. On the other hand the Government has now associated itself with what he has done. They are digging themselves their own grave.
	__________________ This signature is for rent.

20th September 2018, 02:09 AM	#125
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 46,999	******* Morrison has found $4.5 billion to bribe Catholic and independent schools. Of course the most wealthy private schools are squealing because they are not getting as much as they wanted. This stuff fills me with despair. And Labor is no better. I dream of the day when the government only funds government schools and when people who want “elite” schools find the way to fully fund that choice. Will not happen in my lifetime. Bloody hell, will never happen.
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill

20th September 2018, 05:28 AM	#126
Damien Evans Up The Irons Tagger Join Date: May 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 34,458	Originally Posted by lionking ***** Morrison has found $4.5 billion to bribe Catholic and independent schools. Of course the most wealthy private schools are squealing because they are not getting as much as they wanted. This stuff fills me with despair. And Labor is no better.** I dream of the day when the government only funds government schools and when people who want “elite” schools find the way to fully fund that choice. Will not happen in my lifetime. Bloody hell, will never happen. Not true.
	__________________ i loves the little birdies they goes tweet tweet tweet hee hee i loves them they sings to each other tweet twet tweet hee hee i loves them they is so cute i love yje little birdies little birdies in the room when birfies sings ther is no gloom i lobes the little birdies they goess tweet tweet tweet hee hee hee i loves them they sings me to sleep sing me to slrrp now little birdies - The wisdom of Shemp.

19th September 2018, 07:41 PM	#122
Sideroxylon Featherless biped Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Aporia Posts: 24,323	Originally Posted by arthwollipot Peter Dutton avoided the No Confidence motion by one vote. Getting by on the skin of your teeth doesn’t inspire much confidence.

20th September 2018, 05:43 AM	#127
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 46,999	Originally Posted by Damien Evans Not true. On school funding, it is true. Plibesek said on TV today that Kabor would provide more funding to Catholic schools than the Coalition. On this issue, Labor is the enemy of state schools.
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill

20th September 2018, 10:12 AM	#128
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 17,008	Originally Posted by lionking On school funding, it is true. Plibesek said on TV today that Kabor would provide more funding to Catholic schools than the Coalition. On this issue, Labor is the enemy of state schools. I happen to agree with you on this. The Catholic schools were fully behind the disastrous "Outcomes Based Education" that state Labor governments attempted to foist on the public. They obviously don't want to lose that sort of support. The democratic answer would be educational vouchers. Those parents who wished could use them for fully funded public education. Those who were prepared to pay more could use the vouchers as part payment for whatever private school they wished to send their children to. Either way, each child would get equal assistance from the government. It will never happen of course. Politics is about buying favours from influential support groups.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

20th September 2018, 03:26 PM	#129
quadraginta Becoming Beth Join Date: May 2009 Location: Central Vale of Humility (USA, sort of) Posts: 26,177	Originally Posted by psionl0 <snip> The democratic answer would be educational vouchers. Those parents who wished could use them for fully funded public education. Those who were prepared to pay more could use the vouchers as part payment for whatever private school they wished to send their children to. Either way, each child would get equal assistance from the government. It will never happen of course. Politics is about buying favours from influential support groups. Maybe it will work out different for you folks Down Under, but the result of school vouchers here (a solution always popular with our fundamentalist crowd that don't want their kids to go to schools which teach about things like evolution) was to drain much needed funds from the public school systems. Not coincidentally, it has also accelerated the increase in de facto segregation in the schools, although that might not be as much of a problem in Oz.
	__________________ "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep." "Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation." Last edited by quadraginta; 20th September 2018 at 05:26 PM.

20th September 2018, 03:49 PM	#130
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 46,999	Originally Posted by quadraginta Maybe it will work out different for you folks Down Under, but the result of school vouchers here (a solution always popular with out fundamentalist crowd that don't want their kids to go to schools which teach about things like evolution) was to drain much needed funds from the public school systems. Not coincidentally, it has also accelerated the increase in de facto segregation in the schools, although that might not be as much of a problem in Oz. That’s how it would also work down here if implemented.
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill

20th September 2018, 08:26 PM	#131
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 17,008	Originally Posted by quadraginta Maybe it will work out different for you folks Down Under, but the result of school vouchers here (a solution always popular with our fundamentalist crowd that don't want their kids to go to schools which teach about things like evolution) was to drain much needed funds from the public school systems. Why would it drain funds from the public school system. The government already spends more per student on (select) private schools than it does on public schools.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

20th September 2018, 08:36 PM	#132
quadraginta Becoming Beth Join Date: May 2009 Location: Central Vale of Humility (USA, sort of) Posts: 26,177	Originally Posted by psionl0 Why would it drain funds from the public school system. The government already spends more per student on (select) private schools than it does on public schools. Are all the private schools "(select)"? How about the unselct ones that will spring up like mushrooms after a rain as soon as they can start collecting income from school vouchers? Nearly all aimed at white conservative fundamentalist parents. Because that's what happened here. They go bust regularly after it is shown that they aren't maintaining minimum scholastic standards, and then pop back up again under marginally different names. Enjoy.
	__________________ "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep." "Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation."

20th September 2018, 11:13 PM	#133
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 17,008	Originally Posted by quadraginta Are all the private schools "(select)"? How about the unselct ones that will spring up like mushrooms after a rain as soon as they can start collecting income from school vouchers? Nearly all aimed at white conservative fundamentalist parents. Because that's what happened here. They go bust regularly after it is shown that they aren't maintaining minimum scholastic standards, and then pop back up again under marginally different names. Maybe in the US you can just stick a sign on a building that says "SCHOOL" and collect the admissions fees but in Australia there are more hoops to go through before a school (private or public) can admit students. In particular, they can not teach to an unapproved curriculum (even home schooled students have to be taught to an approved guideline). Not that I particularly think that what happens in the US is necessarily a bad thing. Anything that takes choice out of the hands of the government and puts it back in the hands of the individual is a good thing (caveats apply of course).
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

21st September 2018, 01:14 AM	#134
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 46,999	Originally Posted by psionl0 Not that I particularly think that what happens in the US is necessarily a bad thing. Anything that takes choice out of the hands of the government and puts it back in the hands of the individual is a good thing (caveats apply of course). My choice is a Porsche and I demand a voucher to help me buy one. (This is not at all a false analogy. Some of the private schools parents demand funding for are Porsche-like).
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill

21st September 2018, 01:36 AM	#135
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 17,008	Originally Posted by lionking My choice is a Porsche and I demand a voucher to help me buy one. (This is not at all a false analogy. Some of the private schools parents demand funding for are Porsche-like). Yeah right! Everybody gets a free government issued car now. Under a voucher system they could have the choice to continue receiving their government issued car now or use it towards the payment of a privately manufactured car. Of course under a voucher system, the manufacturers wouldn't get government subsidies - only the consumer does. Do you see how silly your analogy is yet?
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

21st September 2018, 02:39 AM	#136
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 46,999	Originally Posted by psionl0 Yeah right! Everybody gets a free government issued car now. Under a voucher system they could have the choice to continue receiving their government issued car now or use it towards the payment of a privately manufactured car. Of course under a voucher system, the manufacturers wouldn't get government subsidies - only the consumer does. Do you see how silly your analogy is yet? Its your support for vouchers which is silly. Vouchers for roads next? Why should I, living in the inner city, pay for roads in the burbs? I demand a voucher to pave my lane way in gold!
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill

21st September 2018, 03:20 AM	#137
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 17,008	Originally Posted by lionking Its your support for vouchers which is silly. Vouchers for roads next? Why should I, living in the inner city, pay for roads in the burbs? I demand a voucher to pave my lane way in gold! Sillier and sillier. What roads are privately funded?
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

21st September 2018, 01:40 PM	#138
Thor 2 Philosopher Join Date: May 2016 Location: Brisbane, Aust. Posts: 6,608	Originally Posted by lionking This stuff fills me with despair. And Labor is no better. I dream of the day when the government only funds government schools and when people who want “elite” schools find the way to fully fund that choice. Will not happen in my lifetime. Bloody hell, will never happen. I share your dream but am more optimistic. The demise of religion may pave the way in the future. There has been the perception that better education is to be found in private schools, although contrary to results often, and then there is this notion that many parents have, that some moral benefits are to be had by their kids getting that religious injection.
	__________________ Thinking is a faith hazard.

21st September 2018, 03:38 PM	#139
quadraginta Becoming Beth Join Date: May 2009 Location: Central Vale of Humility (USA, sort of) Posts: 26,177	Originally Posted by psionl0 Maybe in the US you can just stick a sign on a building that says "SCHOOL" and collect the admissions fees but in Australia there are more hoops to go through before a school (private or public) can admit students. In particular, they can not teach to an unapproved curriculum (even home schooled students have to be taught to an approved guideline). We have all those hoops, and more. Did you miss the part about the frequency with which they get shut down? Quote: Not that I particularly think that what happens in the US is necessarily a bad thing. Anything that takes choice out of the hands of the government and puts it back in the hands of the individual is a good thing (caveats apply of course). So, not really "anything".
	__________________ "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep." "Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation."

21st September 2018, 07:58 PM	#140
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 17,008	Originally Posted by quadraginta We have all those hoops, and more. Did you miss the part about the frequency with which they get shut down? So the vetting process isn't all that good. That just means that parents need to be more vigilant about their choice of schools. Or do you think the choice of schools should be the government's job (track record on vetting process not withstanding)? Originally Posted by quadraginta So, not really "anything". Just forestalling those idiots who would come back with "So you think that the choice to kill somebody should rest with the individual".
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975 Last edited by psionl0; 21st September 2018 at 09:03 PM.

21st September 2018, 08:53 PM	#141
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 46,999	Originally Posted by psionl0 Sillier and sillier. What roads are privately funded? You really don’t have much of a clue about how things work. Plenty of roads are privately funded. Roads in new developments to start with. My road is a gazetted private road. It was built by the owner and we will have to pay to get it paved? Why are you against my aspiration to have my road paved? I demand my government voucher!
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill

21st September 2018, 09:00 PM	#142
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 17,008	Originally Posted by lionking You really don’t have much of a clue about how things work. Plenty of roads are privately funded. Roads in new developments to start with. My road is a gazetted private road. It was built by the owner and we will have to pay to get it paved? Why are you against my aspiration to have my road paved? I demand my government voucher! Assuming that you are correct then your argument is that the government should pay for part or all of the cost of paving your private road. If you own the private road entirely (or if the co-owners agree) then there should be nothing to stop you paving your road with gold. However, the extra cost should be borne by you and not the government.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975 Last edited by psionl0; 21st September 2018 at 09:12 PM.

21st September 2018, 09:42 PM	#143
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 46,999	Originally Posted by psionl0 If you own the private road entirely (or if the co-owners agree) then there should be nothing to stop you paving your road with gold. However, the extra cost should be borne by you and not the government. And the same should apply to education. You can choose the Rolls Royce of schools for your children, with boat sheds, sporting fields galore, teacher ratios to kill for, etc. But if you make this choice over universally available public schools, you should pay for it. Have you looked at how the government is now funding private schools? Not based on the average income of where parents live, but taxable incomes. I know that this will shock you, but wealthy people find ways of minimising income. I know someone who pays $40k in fees for two daughters. He boasts that his taxable income is $48k. Every conceivable (and a lot of inconceivable) expense is put through his company. In some years he has recorded no taxable income at all, while miracously maintaining his large, expensive house and his beach house. Is this even remotely fair to you?
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill

22nd September 2018, 01:36 AM	#144
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 17,008	Originally Posted by lionking And the same should apply to education. You can choose the Rolls Royce of schools for your children, with boat sheds, sporting fields galore, teacher ratios to kill for, etc. But if you make this choice over universally available public schools, you should pay for it. That is exactly what I have been arguing. Originally Posted by lionking Have you looked at how the government is now funding private schools? Not based on the average income of where parents live, but taxable incomes. I know that this will shock you, but wealthy people find ways of minimising income. I know someone who pays $40k in fees for two daughters. He boasts that his taxable income is $48k. Every conceivable (and a lot of inconceivable) expense is put through his company. In some years he has recorded no taxable income at all, while miracously maintaining his large, expensive house and his beach house. Is this even remotely fair to you? Of course not. As I have been arguing, any government subsidy should be based on a per student basis and not on the income of the parents nor on the type of school the student goes to. That is what a voucher system means.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

22nd September 2018, 02:01 AM	#145
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 46,999	Originally Posted by psionl0 That is exactly what I have been arguing. Of course not. As I have been arguing, any government subsidy should be based on a per student basis and not on the income of the parents nor on the type of school the student goes to. That is what a voucher system means. How on earth does this follow? Why should the government provide material support for Catholic and independent schools? You are all over the place in this thread.
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill

22nd September 2018, 03:22 AM	#146
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 17,008	Originally Posted by lionking How on earth does this follow? Why should the government provide material support for Catholic and independent schools? You are all over the place in this thread. You can't possibly be that stupid. I have been consistent all the way through. Parents should get a subsidy for each student that they have to send to school (regardless of the school). They can either take advantage of free public education or pay extra to sent their children to a private school of their choice.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975 Last edited by psionl0; 22nd September 2018 at 03:24 AM.

22nd September 2018, 04:15 AM	#147
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 46,999	Originally Posted by psionl0 You can't possibly be that stupid. I have been consistent all the way through. Parents should get a subsidy for each student that they have to send to school (regardless of the school). They can either take advantage of free public education or pay extra to sent their children to a private school of their choice. No, you are not going to get away with this. Vouchers are simply a way of entrenching private schools against state schools. They are already entrenched in a way now, but the idea of giving James Packer a cheque to hand over to Cranbrook to help educate his kids is absurd.
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill

22nd September 2018, 04:59 AM	#148
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 17,008	Originally Posted by lionking Vouchers are simply a way of entrenching private schools against state schools. You have failed miserably to demonstrate that this is the case (assuming that you know what I am talking about). I'm guessing that you think that private education should not get any government money at all. This would be a serious detriment to lower income parents who would be forced into the public system. Giving subsidies to schools rather than parents makes no sense to me whatsoever (but is the natural preference of politicians).
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

22nd September 2018, 05:54 AM	#149
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 46,999	Originally Posted by psionl0 You have failed miserably to demonstrate that this is the case (assuming that you know what I am talking about). I'm guessing that you think that private education should not get any government money at all. This would be a serious detriment to lower income parents who would be forced into the public system. Giving subsidies to schools rather than parents makes no sense to me whatsoever (but is the natural preference of politicians). What??? I sometimes wonder if you even live in Australia. Firstly, I do think that private education should not get any government funding at all. State Aid is an artefact of the 1950s when the Libs did an unholy deal with the DLP, which kept them in power for many, many years. By the time Whitlam gained power, it was entrenched. Other nations don’t fund private schools. Why should Australia? People forced into the public system because they can’t afford the extortionate fees of private schools? Boo bloody hoo. Like everything else, including choice of car, house, running shoes etc etc, if you can’t afford it, bad luck. Don’t expect other taxpayers to subsidise you.
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill

22nd September 2018, 07:48 AM	#150
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 17,008	Originally Posted by lionking People forced into the public system because they can’t afford the extortionate fees of private schools? Boo bloody hoo. Like everything else, including choice of car, house, running shoes etc etc, if you can’t afford it, bad luck. Don’t expect other taxpayers to subsidise you. That's a remarkably elitist position for you to take. It explains a lot.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

22nd September 2018, 01:37 PM	#151
quadraginta Becoming Beth Join Date: May 2009 Location: Central Vale of Humility (USA, sort of) Posts: 26,177	Originally Posted by psionl0 So the vetting process isn't all that good. The schools can't be vetted until there is some record of how well they have performed. There are standards which must be satisfied prior to a school opening for students, but that doesn't provide any opportunity to evaluate their performance. Quote: That just means that parents need to be more vigilant about their choice of schools. You seem to be oblivious to the problem. It is the parents' concept of "vigilance" which is creating the market for many of these schools. Parents being vigilant that their children are not exposed to things which their religious beliefs disapprove of, like teaching that evolution is an established scientific fact, or the presence of too many (i.e. any) minorities in the classrooms. Quote: Or do you think the choice of schools should be the government's job (track record on vetting process not withstanding)? <snip> See above. For the government to evaluate a school's performance it is necessary for the school to first have performed. Subsequent to that they seem to be doing pretty well with vetting, as is demonstrated by the number of schools which fail to maintain their certification. As far as choice is concerned, I think that if parents want to send their children to private schools that's just dandy, but I don't think it should be to the detriment of the public school system, which is what happens with school vouchers.
	__________________ "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep." "Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation."

22nd September 2018, 06:02 PM	#152
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 17,008	Originally Posted by quadraginta As far as choice is concerned, I think that if parents want to send their children to private schools that's just dandy, but I don't think it should be to the detriment of the public school system, which is what happens with school vouchers. You never explained that. Instead, you went into a distraction about private schools going bust. So I will ask again, how is it that giving parents education vouchers takes money away from the public system but giving private schools tax payers' money doesn't?
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

22nd September 2018, 06:30 PM	#153
quadraginta Becoming Beth Join Date: May 2009 Location: Central Vale of Humility (USA, sort of) Posts: 26,177	Originally Posted by psionl0 You never explained that. Instead, you went into a distraction about private schools going bust. So I will ask again, how is it that giving parents education vouchers takes money away from the public system but giving private schools tax payers' money doesn't? The money spent on vouchers comes from the budgets of the local school districts. The private schools generally charge more than the amount of the voucher, and often have additional sources of income. Public schools don't. This ends up leaving the public schools with growing budget deficits. Quote: Do charter schools, school vouchers and online schools really hurt our neighborhood public schools? You bet they do. Charter schools, vouchers, and other “choice” options redirect public money to privately operated education enterprises, which often operate for profit. That harms public schools by siphoning off students, resources, and funding while reducing the ability of your public schools to serve the full range of student needs and interests. This is why The idea that “the money should follow the child” when students leave a public school for other options is a bad financial decision. Schools have “stranded costs”. When a public school loses a percentage of students to charter schools or a voucher program, the school can’t reduce costs by an equivalent percent. The school still must pay the same utility, maintenance, transportation, and food services costs. The school must still carry the salary and benefit costs of administrative staff, custodial services, and cafeteria workers. The school may not be able to reduce teaching staff because the attrition will occur randomly across various grade levels, leaving class sizes only marginally reduced. Students aren’t a “one-off” expense. The cost to educate each individual student varies a lot. Students with disabilities or who don’t speak English as their first language often cost significantly more to educate. So as a school loses students, it may often find itself left with a larger percentage of its highest-cost students. When schools lose students, they have to cut services. Because schools can’t reduce expenses incrementally, they cut support staff – such as a reading specialist or librarian – and courses – such as art and music – that engage the diverse needs and interests of students. The second to the last paragraph deserves more comment. Voucher programs vary in details by state, but in general they are not required to accept all applicants, the way public schools are. This means they can cherry pick students for any number of reasons. This has led to an entirely new era of "white flight", as well as examples like this one from Indiana. Quote: In its online admissions packet, Lighthouse Christian Academy in Bloomington lays out its expectations of students. It lists "behaviors prohibited in the Bible" to include "homosexual or bisexual activity or any form of sexual immorality" and "practicing alternate gender identity or any other identity or behavior that violates God's ordained distinctions between the two sexes, male and female." And the prejudices are not limited to the children. Quote: The school then makes clear that, "in situations in which the home life violates these standards, LCA reserves the right, within its sole discretion, to refuse admission of an applicant or to discontinue enrollment of a student." So, no "Mom and Mom" or "Dad and Dad" families need apply. Etc. Quote: Lighthouse received $665,400 in state voucher dollars this year. The 2011 voucher law prohibited the state from regulating "curriculum content, religious instruction or activities, classroom teaching, teacher and staff hiring requirements, and other activities carried out by the eligible school."
	__________________ "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep." "Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation."

22nd September 2018, 09:17 PM	#154
Damien Evans Up The Irons Tagger Join Date: May 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 34,458	Originally Posted by lionking On school funding, it is true. Plibesek said on TV today that Kabor would provide more funding to Catholic schools than the Coalition. On this issue, Labor is the enemy of state schools. They'll also provide a lot more funding to state schools than the coalition.
	__________________ i loves the little birdies they goes tweet tweet tweet hee hee i loves them they sings to each other tweet twet tweet hee hee i loves them they is so cute i love yje little birdies little birdies in the room when birfies sings ther is no gloom i lobes the little birdies they goess tweet tweet tweet hee hee hee i loves them they sings me to sleep sing me to slrrp now little birdies - The wisdom of Shemp.

22nd September 2018, 10:07 PM	#155
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 17,008	Originally Posted by quadraginta The money spent on vouchers comes from the budgets of the local school districts. . . . . . . . Not a single word in that entire post about why money given to private schools doesn't also reduce the budgets of local school districts.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975