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Old 11th December 2020, 03:27 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Agreed, but never forge religious wackjobs have a major role in the Iranian Government. and they are not known for rational decisions.
Religious wackjobs not known for rational decisions seem to have a major role in the US government also.
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Old 11th December 2020, 03:29 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
There's a serious misconception that the problem with states like Iran and Pakistan having nuclear weapons is that they will start a nuclear war. It isn't. The problem is that it allows them to engage in all sorts of other mischief with little recourse.
And that's OUR job!
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Old 11th December 2020, 05:28 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
The 1953 events are indeed isolated from significant prior US history in Iran, making them a good starting point for any history wishing to discuss US-Iranian relations, as those events lay an explanatory foundation for the many reactions to them ever since, culminating at one point in the Iranian Revolution, with the dynamics continuing today. In the appropriate sense given in the original post, and here, proximate, as in "immediately preceding or following in a chain of causation."

Perhaps your point, poorly expressed to the point of being missing, is that one can choose to portray events as episodic or ongoing; a case of eye of the beholder, or analytical preference, as I pointed out. However, this actually reaffirms my own underlying message, which is precisely that playing around with how much -- or how little -- historical context one allows, one opens the door to acontextual, misleading snapshot-based reasoning, which was prestige's method adopted here for know-nothing Republican nonsense.... which you applaud. OMG. Baby rattle?
This is a very bizarre defense of the misuse of the word “proximate”.

And given the spate of Mideast normalization’s between Israel and other countries in the region, I’d say Trump understands something about the region that Democrats and even most Republicans do not.
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Old 11th December 2020, 05:29 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Religious wackjobs not known for rational decisions seem to have a major role in the US government also.
Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
And that's OUR job!
It was only a matter of time before the blame America first brigade showed up.
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Old 11th December 2020, 08:44 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
So we all use the same terminology can we take it that killing in a non combat situation an unarmed active or reserve member of the military whether Iranian or Israeli or US is not terrorism but a legitimate military action?

That killing US occupation forces in Iraq or Israeli occupation forces in Lebanon or Syria or Palestine are legitimate military actions?

I just find it confusing when killing unarmed Iranians who offer no immediate threat in a non combat situation in their own country or a country to which they are a legitimate visitor at the request of the government is a legitimate act and not terrorism. But attacking armed invaders is terrorism.

Personally my view is that killing people who do not offer an immediate threat is criminal terrorism. I do not support extra-judicial execution; I do not support judicial execution.
"Immediate threat" is not the criteria. Military necessity and proportionality are the criteria:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collat...manitarian_law

Is there a military advantage reasonably expected from the attack? And is the damage caused by the attack proportional to the expected military advantage? Killing a senior commander has a lot more military advantage than killing a single off-duty enlisted reservist.

And yes, obviously attacking occupation forces is a legitimate military action.
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Old 11th December 2020, 09:27 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
It was only a matter of time before the blame America first brigade showed up.
The people throwing stones from glass houses were here a lot quicker as always though.
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Old 11th December 2020, 10:15 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
The people throwing stones from glass houses were here a lot quicker as always though.
That's an ironic metaphor to use in defense of a country which literally executes people by throwing stones.
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Old 11th December 2020, 10:36 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That's an ironic metaphor to use in defense of a country which literally executes people by throwing stones.
One of the issues about executing people by throwing stones is the public who elect the government are literal participants in the consequence of the legislation. In some countries executions are carried out in places the public does not have access to like prisons, they are carried out by paid executioners, often in some separate room to conceal the consequences of execution. Perhaps stoning people to death is a truly democratic form of execution. If people disagree with the judgement they do not stone the person. The people not the government enact (or not) the verdict.

To be clear I think all forms of execution are wrong.
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Old 11th December 2020, 11:39 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
One of the issues about executing people by throwing stones is the public who elect the government are literal participants in the consequence of the legislation. In some countries executions are carried out in places the public does not have access to like prisons, they are carried out by paid executioners, often in some separate room to conceal the consequences of execution. Perhaps stoning people to death is a truly democratic form of execution. If people disagree with the judgement they do not stone the person. The people not the government enact (or not) the verdict.

To be clear I think all forms of execution are wrong.
What about all forms of warfare? Do you think it's always wrong to strike at enemy commanders?
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Old 11th December 2020, 01:48 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That's an ironic metaphor to use in defense of a country which literally executes people by throwing stones.
Execute schmexecute. Dead is dead, and it's not as though the enlightened State of America hasn't had a few issues with inhumane executions. It's also quite notable that both still retain the barbaric idea that the capital punishment is cool.
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Old 11th December 2020, 01:55 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
It was only a matter of time before the blame America first brigade showed up.
That's the stupidest statement I've seen in a very long time.

America is to blame for every thing wrong with Iran, or maybe you've forgotten little things like the Shah, or even more recently, the destruction of the agreement by the orange clown in the White House?

The other point you miss is that America self-anoints itself as Big Dog in nukes, despite a large percentage of the world wondering why the only country to have ever used them [twice] - the country which has caused by far the most planetary damage by testing nukes and which throws it weight around like a schoolyard bully - is the place which gets to have any say on the subject.

I'd trust India with nukes further than USA, and I don't trust India on anything.

Meanwhile, you might be able to point me at retaliation by Iran since the murder.

We know that America retaliates immediately, or maybe you forgot about the attacks on two non-participating countries in the aftermath of a load of Saudis playing chicken with some buildings in America.
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Old 11th December 2020, 01:57 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Is there a military advantage reasonably expected from the attack? And is the damage caused by the attack proportional to the expected military advantage? Killing a senior commander has a lot more military advantage than killing a single off-duty enlisted reservist.

And yes, obviously attacking occupation forces is a legitimate military action.
That's cool.

Cause a country to become your enemy, then use their enmity as an excuse to attack them at will.
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Old 11th December 2020, 02:24 PM   #93
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If Iran has no agency nor responsibility, then they probably shouldn't have nuclear weapons either.
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Old 11th December 2020, 02:43 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
That's the stupidest statement I've seen in a very long time.

America is to blame for every thing wrong with Iran
So I'm right. But it was stupid of me to be right? Yeah, that's... that's a special take.

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or maybe you've forgotten little things like the Shah, or even more recently, the destruction of the agreement by the orange clown in the White House?
The amazing thing about this attitude is how it disavows agency from anyone else. We act, but others only react. We are responsible for what we do, nobody is responsible for how they respond to us.

Yeah, no.

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The other point you miss is that America self-anoints itself as Big Dog in nukes, despite a large percentage of the world wondering why the only country to have ever used them [twice] - the country which has caused by far the most planetary damage by testing nukes and which throws it weight around like a schoolyard bully - is the place which gets to have any say on the subject.
Yeah, that's a pretty stupid take. Iran is a signatory to the NPT. That was their choice.

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Meanwhile, you might be able to point me at retaliation by Iran since the murder.
What does that have to do with anything I said?

Oh, that's right. Nothing.

Quote:
We know that America retaliates immediately, or maybe you forgot about the attacks on two non-participating countries in the aftermath of a load of Saudis playing chicken with some buildings in America.
Wow. You really decided to go there. You actually thought this would be a good idea, that it would make you look good.

I don't think I even need to say anything.
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Old 11th December 2020, 02:51 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
That's cool.

Cause a country to become your enemy, then use their enmity as an excuse to attack them at will.
Iran, the poor babies! One little brouhaha, and now they can't help but be homophobic theocratic terrorist douchebags forever! And it's all our fault!

Riddle me this: Why not Japan? We caused them to become our enemy*, then used that as an excuse to kick their ass all the way around the Pacific, to firebomb their cities, to nuke their cities, to invade them, to occupy them, to deprecate their precious god-emperor and subject them to martial law... And yet somehow the Japanese have not turned into theocratic terrorist douchebags at war with the world. Quite the opposite. They're one of America's closest allies and partners for peace in the world.
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Old 11th December 2020, 03:15 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
...everything but evidence removed...
Yep.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Riddle me this: Why not Japan?
Srsly?

https://history.state.gov/milestones...reconstruction
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Old 11th December 2020, 03:29 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Srsly?
But it's not just Japan. Let's look at another example: Vietnam. The Vietnamese government has far more to hate America for than Iran does. Yet... they don't, not really. Why is Vietnam friendlier with the US than Iran is? We actually fought a war on Vientnam territory that killed a **** ton of them. And unlike Japan, we never helped them rebuild. Nothing like that ever happened with Iran. Yet it's Iran that shouts "Death to America", not Vietnam.

And why does Iran have such bad relations with so many of its other neighbors? Why would Iran be mad at Israel for something the US did? Why did Iran bomb a Jewish center in Buenos Aires? Argentina never did anything to Iran. None of your pontificating actually makes sense, none of it makes for a coherent understanding of how Iran, or any country for that matter, behaves.

But then, it's not supposed to actually explain anything. That's not the purpose. The sole purpose is to blame the US. Everything that can be is shoehorned in to fit that picture, and whatever cannot be is simply ignored. So the fact that the mullahs are radical religious zealots, well, never mind, just compare them to Trump somehow, maybe try some equivocation about abortion.

But it all rings hollow. Nobody is actually convinced.
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Old 11th December 2020, 03:31 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
I think I see how we can get ourselves a friendly and peaceful Iran. Should we wait until they bomb Pearl Harbor, or should we just get started right now?
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Old 11th December 2020, 05:48 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
But it's not just Japan.
Ok...

I know, why don't you pick a country that won a war instead of lose? They're totally equivalent, amirite?

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Let's look at another example: Vietnam. The Vietnamese government has far more to hate America for than Iran does.
They kicked your arse - aside from the whole poison and mine the country business they don't have a lot to be pissed off about.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
And why does Iran have such bad relations with so many of its other neighbors?
If you need to ask, you need to study islam a lot first.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Nobody is actually convinced.
I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything - I'm quite happy just deconstructing your ********.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I think I see how we can get ourselves a friendly and peaceful Iran. Should we wait until they bomb Pearl Harbor, or should we just get started right now?
Maybe you could just at the period between 2016 and Trump's withdrawal from the agreement in 2019 and see how many attacks Iran made during that time.

Then compare that period to other periods, like the past 18 months and the prior three years and see if you can spot a pattern.

There's no irony in USA giving Saudi weapons to kill Yemeni non-combatants at the same time as crying about Iran.

At times I wish I could have such an ignorantly simplistic view of the world as some people.
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Old 11th December 2020, 10:23 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
I know, why don't you pick a country that won a war instead of lose? They're totally equivalent, amirite?
The Iranian regime won their revolution, didn't they? So it's a better comparison, isn't it?

Quote:
If you need to ask, you need to study islam a lot first.
Oh, so you knew that Iran's misbehavior wasn't all the US's fault. But you pretended it was anyways.

It's also strange that you can recognize the role Islam plays in Iran's dealings with its neighbors, but not with us.

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At times I wish I could have such an ignorantly simplistic view of the world as some people.
The thing is, you haven't actually pointed to anything I said that's over-simplified. In fact, every attempt by you to refute me has consistent in over-simplifying the situation.
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Old 12th December 2020, 02:24 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That's an ironic metaphor to use in defense of a country which literally executes people by throwing stones.
In defense of who?

Another shining example of the great American education system here. Perhaps if you guys spent less time pledging allegiance to cloth and more time learning to read?
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Old 12th December 2020, 02:32 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The Iranian regime won their revolution, didn't they? So it's a better comparison, isn't it?
Nope. A war is not the same as a puppet dictatorship.

I note you haven't bothered trying to counter my point about Iran's attacks and terrorist activity during the currency of the agreement and removal of sanctions.

Nice.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Oh, so you knew that Iran's misbehavior wasn't all the US's fault. But you pretended it was anyways.
Except that's not what you asked, or what I said.

You asked why they don't get on with other ME states, even though you knew the answer. What happens between Sunni and Shia is an entirely different question, and you may not have noticed that neither Israel nor USA is majority muslim.
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Old 12th December 2020, 02:32 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
So the fact that the mullahs are radical religious zealots.
It's the dripping racism in stuff like this that annoys me. Their leaders are radical religious zealots 'our' leaders are cuddly little bunnies who just want to usher in the end times so the rapture can come. And then you double down with the 'with us or against us' bullcrap that pointing this out is anti-American and pro-Iran. Maybe just maybe they are BOTH radical religious zealots who shouldn't be anywhere near leading anything more important that a school trip to the park?

Same thing with the 'we can't trust brown people to have nukes because they will only start trouble' racist nonsense. Complete lack of self-awareness. I think they teach Americans that as kids.

Nobody except the deplorables buys into your Captain America - Defender of Freedom crap any more.
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Old 12th December 2020, 02:35 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
It's the dripping racism in stuff like this that annoys me. Their leaders are radical religious zealots 'our' leaders are cuddly little bunnies who just want to usher in the end times so the rapture can come. And then you double down with the 'with us or against us' bullcrap that pointing this out is anti-American and pro-Iran. Maybe just maybe they are BOTH radical religious zealots who shouldn't be anywhere near leading anything more important that a school trip to the park?

Same thing with the 'we can't trust brown people to have nukes because they will only start trouble' racist nonsense. Complete lack of self-awareness. I think they teach Americans that as kids.

Nobody except the deplorables buys into your Captain America - Defender of Freedom crap any more.
10/10.
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Old 12th December 2020, 02:55 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
It's the dripping racism in stuff like this that annoys me. Their leaders are radical religious zealots 'our' leaders are cuddly little bunnies who just want to usher in the end times so the rapture can come. And then you double down with the 'with us or against us' bullcrap that pointing this out is anti-American and pro-Iran. Maybe just maybe they are BOTH radical religious zealots who shouldn't be anywhere near leading anything more important that a school trip to the park?

Same thing with the 'we can't trust brown people to have nukes because they will only start trouble' racist nonsense. Complete lack of self-awareness. I think they teach Americans that as kids.

Nobody except the deplorables buys into your Captain America - Defender of Freedom crap any more.



Its worth pointing out that in all of history, the only people who have ever nuked other people were white Americans.
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Old 12th December 2020, 06:14 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
It's the dripping racism in stuff like this that annoys me. Their leaders are radical religious zealots 'our' leaders are cuddly little bunnies who just want to usher in the end times so the rapture can come.
You call it racism, but really, you're the one being racist by applying radically different standards based on race. There really is no equivalency between the mullahs and US politicians.

Quote:
Same thing with the 'we can't trust brown people to have nukes because they will only start trouble' racist nonsense.
Yeah, no. Iran's history of exporting terrorism isn't racist nonsense. Your attempts to frame everything in terms of race, though, certainly is.
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Old 12th December 2020, 06:32 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post

If you need to ask, you need to study islam a lot first.
I think I agree with you. Islam is a big problem.
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Old 12th December 2020, 06:36 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Same thing with the 'we can't trust brown people to have nukes because they will only start trouble' racist nonsense. Complete lack of self-awareness. I think they teach Americans that as kids.
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Its worth pointing out that in all of history, the only people who have ever nuked other people were white Americans.
I think this is all very silly.

You do remember that the guy with the nuclear football for eight years was Obama, right?

No doubt some racists didn't like it, but they are racists. It doesn't mean that even under Obama the US had a policy of wanting Iran or North Korea to have nuclear weapons, despite what some racists might tell you.

It's not about black, brown or white.

Most countries want to limit nukes. Most countries want Iran to have no nukes.

Do you want Iran with nukes, or not?
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 12th December 2020, 06:47 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Its worth pointing out that in all of history, the only people who have ever nuked other people were white Americans.
Is it worth it, when you strip it of all historical context?

Depends on your goals, I suppose. It doesn't actually provide any actual insight.
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Old 12th December 2020, 08:10 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
https://www.dropbox.com/s/6qrpvjcoiy...oom2.gif?raw=1


Its worth pointing out that in all of history, the only people who have ever nuked other people were white Americans.
Who are also, ironically, the people who have possessed nuclear weapons without using them longer than anyone else.
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Old 12th December 2020, 10:53 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post

Do you want Iran with nukes, or not?
I don't want Iran or the US or anyone else with nukes. But I don't try to use spurious racist arguments to justify that position.
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Old 12th December 2020, 10:54 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You call it racism, but really, you're the one being racist by applying radically different standards based on race. There really is no equivalency between the mullahs and US politicians.

Yeah, no. Iran's history of exporting terrorism isn't racist nonsense. Your attempts to frame everything in terms of race, though, certainly is.
Doubling down on your racist arguments isn't any more convincing than the first attempt.
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Old 12th December 2020, 11:40 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
https://www.dropbox.com/s/6qrpvjcoiy...oom2.gif?raw=1


Its worth pointing out that in all of history, the only people who have ever nuked other people were white Americans.
And it is worth pointing out that dripping the bomb ended the war quicker then any other method would have, saving many linves, both American and Japanese.
And race had little to do with it. US would have used the bomb on Nazi Germany just as quickly had the circumstances been similiar.
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Old 12th December 2020, 11:42 AM   #114
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Here come the Iranian fanboys.
Amaxzing how a right wing religoius regime has coneed so many on the left into supporting them.
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Old 12th December 2020, 12:00 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
I don't want Iran or the US or anyone else with nukes. But I don't try to use spurious racist arguments to justify that position.
I could see arguments from religious intolerance. I don't think anyone is particularly concerned about the Iranians being Persian. Except maybe the Arabs.

What else you got?
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Old 12th December 2020, 12:01 PM   #116
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You guys really comfortable about supporting a goverement that does this?

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/iran-ex...s-online-work/

But Iran is "anti imperalist" so that makes averything they do excusable.
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Old 12th December 2020, 12:21 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
You guys really comfortable about supporting a goverement that does this?
Yet again you are conflating being anti-extra judicial murder with support.

I do not support the Iranian regime in any way - they're a crazy bunch of islamofascists.

But that doesn't give me, Israel or USA the right to kill them.
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Old 12th December 2020, 01:48 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Doubling down on your racist arguments isn't any more convincing than the first attempt.
Oh, the irony.
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Old 12th December 2020, 01:57 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Oh, the irony.
ah the content free unwillingness to self reflect.... God Bless America
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Old 12th December 2020, 02:05 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Here come the Iranian fanboys.
Amaxzing how a right wing religoius regime has coneed so many on the left into supporting them.
Can you quote the part that you think is support for Iran? Because I'm not seeing it.

As I said, this 'if you aren't with us you are against us' BS doesn't wash.
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