IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Non-USA & General Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags china , China issues

Reply
Old 24th December 2020, 10:31 PM   #1
Orphia Nay
Penguilicious Spodmaster.
Tagger
 
Orphia Nay's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Ponylandistan Presidential Palace (above the Spods' stables).
Posts: 38,745
China

We don't seem to have a thread on China.

People in the USA, and the older generation seem pretty scared of China, in my experience.

Yet I know people who visit there regularly, or have visited there, or live there, and they've loved it.

Is this an East/West thing that is outdated?

I have a theory that the more people in high-income countries talk as if they're scared, the more China might want to impose tariffs (for example) on the USA or UK or Australia.

Kind of like the fear reaps fear, though there should be no reason for fear.

China might be afraid the US is so afraid they will harm them, and vice versa.

Can't we all get along?

Happy Christmas, BTW.
__________________
"We stigmatize and send to the margins
people who trigger in us the feelings we want to avoid"
- Melinda Gates, "The Moment of Lift".
Orphia Nay is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th December 2020, 11:16 PM   #2
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 86,986
I'm not aware of anyone in the US that fears China. Perhaps you could elaborate on what you mean.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th December 2020, 11:27 PM   #3
cullennz
Suspended
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: NZ
Posts: 19,832
Have no issue with China, but if it helps, at least from a NZ point of view, it tends to be the left of politics that a scared and go on about them.

Work with Chinese people. All seem cool. One was a bit defensive when talking their history, but probably my fault for mentioning it.
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th December 2020, 11:29 PM   #4
Venom
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 4,901
I don't like the way they treat cats and dogs.

I don't like their atrocious record on human rights and the way they hand out death sentences and do executions.

As a Southeast Asian I sort of understand how so much of the population in these countries are attracted to strongmen and dictators---seems to be just what they're used to. But China's modern development is special. It's a peg short of superpower, and it still behaves like a forgettable third-rate dictatorship in many ways.
Venom is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th December 2020, 12:19 AM   #5
cullennz
Suspended
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: NZ
Posts: 19,832
Plenty of countries eat dogs.


Plenty of countries won't eat pigs for some stupid religious reason


Personally think you are doing a disservice saying China isn't a superpower. When you have a country like the US owing you 1.17 trillion dollars, you could probably claim to have a bit of clout.

Not that the US will probably bother paying it back.
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th December 2020, 01:49 AM   #6
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
 
The Atheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 28,319
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I'm not aware of anyone in the US that fears China. Perhaps you could elaborate on what you mean.
Wow, you need to get out more. One of the main planks used against Biden was that only Trump is willing to stand up to China.

Take a short look at Skeptical Community and you'll find a nice pocket of Sinophobes.

Originally Posted by Venom View Post
I don't like their atrocious record on human rights and the way they hand out death sentences and do executions.
Not just their record, the arrogance with which they do it is astonishing. They're aware of their economic clout and use it willingly and corruptly.

I'm not even going to bother with their record on women's rights, but if you can find a woman in the CCP leadership let me know.

Originally Posted by Venom View Post
It's a peg short of superpower, and it still behaves like a forgettable third-rate dictatorship in many ways.
Exactly that.
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.
The Atheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th December 2020, 04:26 AM   #7
Shadowdweller
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,015
China is filled with dirty, nasty commies that secretly control all the (liberal) politicians we don't like. And are the real ones trying to hack American elections and put bounties on the heads of American soldiers, despite what all the treasonous intelligence agencies say. Except when it comes to trade deals, then they're good people.
Shadowdweller is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th December 2020, 05:47 AM   #8
Delphic Oracle
Philosopher
 
Delphic Oracle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 5,361
Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Plenty of countries eat dogs.





Plenty of countries won't eat pigs for some stupid religious reason





Personally think you are doing a disservice saying China isn't a superpower. When you have a country like the US owing you 1.17 trillion dollars, you could probably claim to have a bit of clout.



Not that the US will probably bother paying it back.
We have been, are currently, and will continue to pay the full amount due on every U.S. Treasury bond that matures.

There is no special "we don't actually pay these back" stack of bonds and banks don't join in some act of nationalist solidarity and look the other way when a creditor stiffs a bank that happens to be foreign.
Delphic Oracle is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th December 2020, 06:05 AM   #9
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,605
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Wow, you need to get out more. One of the main planks used against Biden was that only Trump is willing to stand up to China.

Take a short look at Skeptical Community and you'll find a nice pocket of Sinophobes.
Saying that a country or a group of people is awfully dangerous is not necessarily indicative of fear: See Cuba or Antifa.

Quote:
Not just their record, the arrogance with which they do it is astonishing. They're aware of their economic clout and use it willingly and corruptly.

I'm not even going to bother with their record on women's rights, but if you can find a woman in the CCP leadership let me know.
Women appear to be a minority, but there are some women: 19th Central Committee of the Chinese Communist Party: Members (Wikipedia)
"♀ Indicates that the individual is female."
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th December 2020, 07:25 AM   #10
MRC_Hans
Penultimate Amazing
 
MRC_Hans's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 23,500
China is a fantastic country, but it is also scary in many ways.
However, let me say that any statement about China shorter than an entire book is bound to be oversimplified. It is a huge and diverse country with several thousand years of history.

Hans
__________________
Experience is an excellent teacher, but she sends large bills.
MRC_Hans is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th December 2020, 08:19 AM   #11
Bikewer
Penultimate Amazing
 
Bikewer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: St. Louis, Mo.
Posts: 12,888
That China is a threat is a major talking point on the right. They do make some points...
China has been busily improving their military capabilities, and seem intent on using those capabilities to expand their influence in the region.
They have also been expanding their influence worldwide, especially in “developing” countries in Africa and South America, often spending heavily on infrastructure and such. Of course, the US did exactly the same thing before retreating to insularity....

Their business practices are pretty awful according to US firms that have tried building/marketing there. The standard approach appears to be to demand “sharing” technology, and then blatantly stealing it and not allowing the widgets made in the US factories to be sold in China. The same widgets, copied exactly, are marketed domestically by the Chinese “mirror” factories.

And of course ongoing hacking attacks against US technologies...

Some see this as a road towards “world domination”... Whatever that might mean, while others simply see China’s efforts as dragging what was a 3rd-world country into the mainstream and achieving prosperity for it’s (very many) citizens.
Bikewer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th December 2020, 08:39 AM   #12
Arcade22
Philosopher
 
Arcade22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 6,781
Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
Can't we all get along?
You should see the way the Chinese ambassador to Sweden acts. Smug self-righteous chauvinist is a very accurate description of how he has behaved in a professional capacity, with the apparent blessing of his employers. It's no wonder that Swedish public opinion on China has dropped so much recently when their chief apologist only makes their country come off even worse.
__________________
We would be a lot safer if the Government would take its money out of science and put it into astrology and the reading of palms. Only in superstition is there hope. - Kurt Vonnegut Jr

And no, Cuba is not a brutal and corrupt dictatorship, and it's definitely less so than Sweden. - dann
Arcade22 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th December 2020, 09:20 AM   #13
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 97,067
Originally Posted by Bikewer View Post
...snip...

Some see this as a road towards “world domination”... Whatever that might mean, while others simply see China’s efforts as dragging what was a 3rd-world country into the mainstream and achieving prosperity for it’s (very many) citizens.
Compared to how other superpowers (of their time) came to be superpowers the Chinese seem about on par.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th December 2020, 10:52 AM   #14
Modified
Philosopher
 
Modified's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,892
Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Plenty of countries eat dogs.

They don't eat many in China - estimated at about one per 100 people per year, compared to one per 250 people per year in the US. It's only popular in a very small region of China.
Modified is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th December 2020, 11:13 AM   #15
Delphic Oracle
Philosopher
 
Delphic Oracle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 5,361
Originally Posted by Bikewer View Post
That China is a threat is a major talking point on the right. They do make some points...
China has been busily improving their military capabilities, and seem intent on using those capabilities to expand their influence in the region.
They have also been expanding their influence worldwide, especially in “developing” countries in Africa and South America, often spending heavily on infrastructure and such. Of course, the US did exactly the same thing before retreating to insularity....

Their business practices are pretty awful according to US firms that have tried building/marketing there. The standard approach appears to be to demand “sharing” technology, and then blatantly stealing it and not allowing the widgets made in the US factories to be sold in China. The same widgets, copied exactly, are marketed domestically by the Chinese “mirror” factories.

And of course ongoing hacking attacks against US technologies...

Some see this as a road towards “world domination”... Whatever that might mean, while others simply see China’s efforts as dragging what was a 3rd-world country into the mainstream and achieving prosperity for it’s (very many) citizens.
Companies operating in China with such agreements...er...agreed to those terms.

That isn't some magical "gotcha" that was invisible at signing by using disappearing-reappearing ink.

That was the deal. They agreed to it.

Let's also recall that before Beijing started to assert itself this way with a "what's in it for us?" policy, its not like China was an ideal model of benevolent corporate responsibility.
Delphic Oracle is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th December 2020, 11:27 AM   #16
Doubt
Philosopher
 
Doubt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 7,156
China is playing games to collect resources. It is like a smarter version of what Japan was doing up to world war 2. They understand that they don't need to directly control land to control resources. They don't understand that at some point their neighbors are going to be sick of their crap and cut them off as a group. They are exposed to a world wide embargo and their best counter is the economic damage it would do to countries like the US.

That said, Trump's efforts were nothing better than flailing around and making noise. Without help from China's other trade partners there was nothing to gain and a lot to lose.

The Democrats being in bed with China is just a manufactured concept needed to vilify them.

In the long run the best way to counter China is to undermine their economy by building up other countries that could do low wage manufacturing. This means more business for South and South East Asia along with whatever parts of Africa are stable enough. That has to be done in a way that keeps China out of those places.
__________________
45 es un titere
Doubt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th December 2020, 11:42 AM   #17
trustbutverify
Philosopher
 
trustbutverify's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 8,885
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I'm not aware of anyone in the US that fears China. Perhaps you could elaborate on what you mean.
??
__________________
"To me, Hitler is the greatest man who ever lived. He truly is without fault, so simple and at the same time possessed of masculine strength"
-Leni Riefenstahl
Wollen owns the stage
trustbutverify is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th December 2020, 12:16 PM   #18
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 86,986
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Wow, you need to get out more. One of the main planks used against Biden was that only Trump is willing to stand up to China....
Maybe you should visit us. Just because Trump has a gaslight propaganda campaign doesn't mean people are afraid of China.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th December 2020, 12:17 PM   #19
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 86,986
Originally Posted by Shadowdweller View Post
China is filled with dirty, nasty commies that secretly control all the (liberal) politicians we don't like. And are the real ones trying to hack American elections and put bounties on the heads of American soldiers, despite what all the treasonous intelligence agencies say. Except when it comes to trade deals, then they're good people.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th December 2020, 01:51 PM   #20
MRC_Hans
Penultimate Amazing
 
MRC_Hans's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 23,500
Originally Posted by Bikewer View Post
That China is a threat is a major talking point on the right. They do make some points...
China has been busily improving their military capabilities, and seem intent on using those capabilities to expand their influence in the region.
That may eventually be a matter of concern. So far, however, China is still quite weak, militarily.

Quote:
They have also been expanding their influence worldwide, especially in “developing” countries in Africa and South America, often spending heavily on infrastructure and such. Of course, the US did exactly the same thing before retreating to insularity...
In these areas, China has the "advantage" of not being too preoccupied with human rights.

Quote:
Their business practices are pretty awful according to US firms that have tried building/marketing there. The standard approach appears to be to demand “sharing” technology, and then blatantly stealing it and not allowing the widgets made in the US factories to be sold in China. The same widgets, copied exactly, are marketed domestically by the Chinese “mirror” factories.
I have been heavily involved in transferring production to China. Yes, they are quite eager to avoid just being a source of cheap labor. However, it is quite possible to set up production in China and make it profitable. If you make a fuzz about it, the Chinese authorities will try to crack down on copy production.

Quote:
And of course ongoing hacking attacks against US technologies..
A basic problem is that the idea of intellectual property has so far not gained much traction in China. I think that will happen when China begins to have it's own intellectual properties.

Quote:
Some see this as a road towards “world domination”... Whatever that might mean, while others simply see China’s efforts as dragging what was a 3rd-world country into the mainstream and achieving prosperity for it’s (very many) citizens.
The latter is closest to the truth. China has dragged more than half a billion people out of poverty during the last few decades. Some of the methods have been rather ham-fisted, but in general, the population appreciates the effort.

Hans
__________________
Experience is an excellent teacher, but she sends large bills.

Last edited by MRC_Hans; 25th December 2020 at 01:53 PM. Reason: Mainly formats.
MRC_Hans is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th December 2020, 03:06 PM   #21
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 50,334
I don't like authoratarian dictatorships, period, and China certainly qualafies there.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th December 2020, 03:08 PM   #22
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 50,334
Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
That may eventually be a matter of concern. So far, however, China is still quite weak, militarily.



In these areas, China has the "advantage" of not being too preoccupied with human rights.



I have been heavily involved in transferring production to China. Yes, they are quite eager to avoid just being a source of cheap labor. However, it is quite possible to set up production in China and make it profitable. If you make a fuzz about it, the Chinese authorities will try to crack down on copy production.



A basic problem is that the idea of intellectual property has so far not gained much traction in China. I think that will happen when China begins to have it's own intellectual properties.



The latter is closest to the truth. China has dragged more than half a billion people out of poverty during the last few decades. Some of the methods have been rather ham-fisted, but in general, the population appreciates the effort.

Hans

Gee, sounds like what they said about Joe Stalin
Just a varaition on the old "But he made the trains runs on time" and I, frankly have no use for these kind of apologists.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th December 2020, 03:08 PM   #23
Venom
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 4,901
Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Plenty of countries eat dogs.
Yes and where I'm from they do(did) too.

But the conditions they keep the animals in in those wet markets is appalling.
Venom is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th December 2020, 05:16 PM   #24
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
 
The Atheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 28,319
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Maybe you should visit us. Just because Trump has a gaslight propaganda campaign doesn't mean people are afraid of China.
The people being scared of China long predate Trump's presidency.

To some degree, I think China should be feared. They're dangerous imperialist nutters. Their recent history suggests at least a huge amount of caution.

Why are they hacking and interfering with tertiary institutions across NZ and Australia (and many other countries)? Why are they using their "soft" power by helping "former" members of Chinese intelligence apparatus obtain roles of importance across the world?

I'd be prepared to give them a break if they showed signs of change, but I remember Tienanmen Square, along with atrocities back to Mao and it's not letting up in multiple parts of the country.

I'm quite happy for them to play soldiers in the SC Sea, but their projection of power into areas they perceive as "not under our control" is disturbing and needs close watching. What they did the other day with the anti-Australian Tweet was appalling and unbelievably hypocritical. They lie, cheat and throw their weight around just like other superpowers do and have.

Right now, along with wiping out islam, they're indulging in re-writing history on Genghis Khan.
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.
The Atheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th December 2020, 06:50 PM   #25
cullennz
Suspended
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: NZ
Posts: 19,832
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
The people being scared of China long predate Trump's presidency.

To some degree, I think China should be feared. They're dangerous imperialist nutters. Their recent history suggests at least a huge amount of caution.

Why are they hacking and interfering with tertiary institutions across NZ and Australia (and many other countries)? Why are they using their "soft" power by helping "former" members of Chinese intelligence apparatus obtain roles of importance across the world?

I'd be prepared to give them a break if they showed signs of change, but I remember Tienanmen Square, along with atrocities back to Mao and it's not letting up in multiple parts of the country.

I'm quite happy for them to play soldiers in the SC Sea, but their projection of power into areas they perceive as "not under our control" is disturbing and needs close watching. What they did the other day with the anti-Australian Tweet was appalling and unbelievably hypocritical. They lie, cheat and throw their weight around just like other superpowers do and have.

Right now, along with wiping out islam, they're indulging in re-writing history on Genghis Khan.
Think you might be confusing scared with paranoid tbh.

I agree the offending Aussie propaganda thing was a bit OTT, but then so was the US's "China virus" thing.

Edit: Should also tack on they are hardly taking over unis
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th December 2020, 07:02 PM   #26
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 86,986
I live here TA, and no, people are not afraid of China anymore than they are afraid of the nebulous deep state.

Are there people who believe that nonsense, sure. There are people who believe the librul red pinko commie socialists have taken over the government. It's not a general consensus.

There was a guy in New Zealand who shot up a couple of mosques because he believed in some threat or another. Would you say New Zealanders are afraid of Muslims?

It would be rather stupid for me to say, people in New Zealand seem pretty scared of Muslims, in my experience. I read it in a magazine so I know.




BTW, we met a gent in New Zealand years back who gave us a ride, we were hitch-hiking. He said he reckoned if it weren't for us yanks they'd be speaking Japanese.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 25th December 2020 at 07:06 PM.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th December 2020, 07:10 PM   #27
cullennz
Suspended
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: NZ
Posts: 19,832
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I live here TA, and no, people are not afraid of China anymore than they are afraid of the nebulous deep state.

Are there people who believe that nonsense, sure. There are people who believe the librul red pinko commie socialists have taken over the government. It's not a general consensus.

There was a guy in New Zealand who shot up a couple of mosques because he believed in some threat or another. Would you say New Zealanders are afraid of Muslims?

It would be rather stupid for me to say, people in New Zealand seem pretty scared of Muslims, in my experience. I read it in a magazine so I know.




BTW, we met a gent in New Zealand years back who gave us a ride, we were hitch-hiking. He said he reckoned if it weren't for us yanks they'd be speaking Japanese.
We would be eating some pretty awesome food though.

cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th December 2020, 07:16 PM   #28
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 59,507
Not the worst Tori Amos song, to be sure, but far from the best, either.
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th December 2020, 07:17 PM   #29
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
 
The Atheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 28,319
Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Think you might be confusing scared with paranoid tbh.
Nope.

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/...om-new-zealand

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/110...ce-in-auckland

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...814_story.html

Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I agree the offending Aussie propaganda thing was a bit OTT, but then so was the US's "China virus" thing.
The Chinese Tweet was pretty minor in the scheme of things - I only mentioned it because of the sheer hypocrisy.

I'm a lot more concerned about their attitude to trade: https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/18/aust...s-in-2020.html

Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Edit: Should also tack on they are hardly taking over unis
Shouldn't have bothered with the edit, because "influence" is nothing to do with "taking over". When someone suggests the latter you can post that again.

[quote=Skeptic Ginger;13337670]Are there people who believe that nonsense, sure. There are people who believe the librul red pinko commie socialists have taken over the government. It's not a general consensus.[/QUOTE

Like Cully, you can save the "general consensus" crap for when someone says that. Two strawmen in two consecutive posts from you and Cully there - nice work.

I didn't say it was a majority, I just refuted your original point (that you confirm in the first sentence quoted above) which was: "I'm not aware of anyone in the US that fears China."

Now you say you are aware of some people that do, so maybe you could decide which you actually believe.
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.
The Atheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th December 2020, 07:42 PM   #30
Orphia Nay
Penguilicious Spodmaster.
Tagger
 
Orphia Nay's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Ponylandistan Presidential Palace (above the Spods' stables).
Posts: 38,745
Originally Posted by Doubt View Post
China is playing games to collect resources. It is like a smarter version of what Japan was doing up to world war 2. They understand that they don't need to directly control land to control resources. They don't understand that at some point their neighbors are going to be sick of their crap and cut them off as a group. They are exposed to a world wide embargo and their best counter is the economic damage it would do to countries like the US.

That said, Trump's efforts were nothing better than flailing around and making noise. Without help from China's other trade partners there was nothing to gain and a lot to lose.

The Democrats being in bed with China is just a manufactured concept needed to vilify them.

In the long run the best way to counter China is to undermine their economy by building up other countries that could do low wage manufacturing. This means more business for South and South East Asia along with whatever parts of Africa are stable enough. That has to be done in a way that keeps China out of those places.
China is burdened by its past of being the poor nation providing cheap goods for high-income countries.

Now, it's using education and technology to develop its Belt and Road initiative {Wikipedia} to connect Eurasia and allow easier transport of goods, and less poverty for itself and other countries.
__________________
"We stigmatize and send to the margins
people who trigger in us the feelings we want to avoid"
- Melinda Gates, "The Moment of Lift".
Orphia Nay is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th December 2020, 07:48 PM   #31
Elagabalus
Philosopher
 
Elagabalus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 6,919
Originally Posted by Doubt View Post
China is playing games to collect resources. It is like a smarter version of what Japan was doing up to world war 2. They understand that they don't need to directly control land to control resources. They don't understand that at some point their neighbors are going to be sick of their crap and cut them off as a group. They are exposed to a world wide embargo and their best counter is the economic damage it would do to countries like the US.

That said, Trump's efforts were nothing better than flailing around and making noise. Without help from China's other trade partners there was nothing to gain and a lot to lose.

The Democrats being in bed with China is just a manufactured concept needed to vilify them.

In the long run the best way to counter China is to undermine their economy by building up other countries that could do low wage manufacturing. This means more business for South and South East Asia along with whatever parts of Africa are stable enough. That has to be done in a way that keeps China out of those places.
IOW, Chicom, CCP. deep state, will try to get Briben elected so they can rule the world with their pedo/satanist cohorts.
Elagabalus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th December 2020, 07:52 PM   #32
cullennz
Suspended
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: NZ
Posts: 19,832
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Nope.

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/...om-new-zealand

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/110...ce-in-auckland

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...814_story.html



The Chinese Tweet was pretty minor in the scheme of things - I only mentioned it because of the sheer hypocrisy.

I'm a lot more concerned about their attitude to trade: https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/18/aust...s-in-2020.html



Shouldn't have bothered with the edit, because "influence" is nothing to do with "taking over". When someone suggests the latter you can post that again.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Are there people who believe that nonsense, sure. There are people who believe the librul red pinko commie socialists have taken over the government. It's not a general consensus.
Like Cully, you can save the "general consensus" crap for when someone says that. Two strawmen in two consecutive posts from you and Cully there - nice work.

I didn't say it was a majority, I just refuted your original point (that you confirm in the first sentence quoted above) which was: "I'm not aware of anyone in the US that fears China."

Now you say you are aware of some people that do, so maybe you could decide which you actually believe.
Atheist. I am not denying that the current Chinese international relationship policy is to run/own as much **** as possible to have major influence.

But this is hardly a new concept when it comes to countries like ours.

The US is the same with its past international smash and grab, same as the UK years ago.

How many of our banks and supermarkets (in the supermarket case with their duopoly) are raking in our cash as they are owned by Aussies?

At least **** tends to get done rather than farting round.
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th December 2020, 08:50 PM   #33
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
 
The Atheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 28,319
Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
The US is the same with its past international smash and grab, same as the UK years ago.

How many of our banks and supermarkets (in the supermarket case with their duopoly) are raking in our cash as they are owned by Aussies?
I'm not happy about any of that - it is one of the problems of being a pimple in the ocean on the arse of the planet, but UK, USA & Aussie don't go around assaulting MPs on Parliament grounds, or use trade embargoes and illegal charges on imports on political grounds.

They don't demand that routes they travel on have all protests hidden, either.
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.
The Atheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th December 2020, 09:01 PM   #34
Orphia Nay
Penguilicious Spodmaster.
Tagger
 
Orphia Nay's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Ponylandistan Presidential Palace (above the Spods' stables).
Posts: 38,745
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
I'm not happy about any of that - it is one of the problems of being a pimple in the ocean on the arse of the planet, but UK, USA & Aussie don't go around assaulting MPs on Parliament grounds, or use trade embargoes and illegal charges on imports on political grounds.
US and Aussie use tariffs on China, and vice versa. Happens all the time.

Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
They don't demand that routes they travel on have all protests hidden, either.
Protests in Europe haven't been hidden, as an example.

Where were you thinking of?
__________________
"We stigmatize and send to the margins
people who trigger in us the feelings we want to avoid"
- Melinda Gates, "The Moment of Lift".
Orphia Nay is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th December 2020, 09:55 PM   #35
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 86,986
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Nope.

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/...om-new-zealand

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/110...ce-in-auckland

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...814_story.html

The Chinese Tweet was pretty minor in the scheme of things - I only mentioned it because of the sheer hypocrisy.

I'm a lot more concerned about their attitude to trade: https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/18/aust...s-in-2020.html

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Are there people who believe that nonsense, sure. There are people who believe the librul red pinko commie socialists have taken over the government. It's not a general consensus.
Like Cully, you can save the "general consensus" crap for when someone says that. Two strawmen in two consecutive posts from you and Cully there - nice work....
Yeah right, you know all about Americans from reading the papers.

And you think I'm the one that doesn't get out enough.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 25th December 2020 at 09:57 PM.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th December 2020, 10:00 PM   #36
cullennz
Suspended
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: NZ
Posts: 19,832
It wasn't that long ago our current govt were going on about the US having too much control over the GCSB.....

...While in the past running the GCSB
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th December 2020, 10:01 PM   #37
cullennz
Suspended
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: NZ
Posts: 19,832
And now running the GCSB
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th December 2020, 10:06 PM   #38
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 86,986
When I went to the Dominican Republic years ago, in my early 20s, people told me it was dangerous. It wasn't, they'd had a revolution a full decade earlier. And everyone in Central America supposedly hated Americans. They didn't. People I met who were headed to FL were worried about all the crime. There wasn't any particular crime wave going on. Traveling around Ecuador (JREF Galapagos Islands side trip I took on my own) people said it was dangerous, crime everywhere. There wasn't.

I have run into trouble in more than one country, none of which anyone warned me about. Most of the time people are people everywhere you go. Bottom line though, you never see what a country or its people are like unless you go there.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 25th December 2020 at 10:13 PM.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th December 2020, 10:10 PM   #39
cullennz
Suspended
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: NZ
Posts: 19,832
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
When I went to the Dominican Republic years ago, in my early 20s, people told me it was dangerous. It wasn't, they'd had a revolution a full decade earlier. And everyone in Central America supposedly hated Americans. They didn't. People I met who were headed to FL were worried about all the crime. There wasn't any particular crime wave going on. Traveling around Ecuador (JREF Galapagos Islands side trip I took on my own) people said it was dangerous, crime everywhere. There wasn't.

I have run into trouble in more than one country, none of which anyone warned me about. Most of the time people are people everywhere you go. Bottom line though, you never see what a country or its people are like unless you go there.
Agree totally.

There might be certain timings where you might want to take odd things into consideration depending on country, but usually everything will be fine.
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th December 2020, 10:17 PM   #40
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 86,986
Political propaganda is not what most people experience in their lives. It's always something they have a nebulous concept of. Trump sycophants might rant and rave about China or librul commies but they are only a small number relative to most people. For example, Trump tried to make everyone believe there were riots all over Seattle. The protests affected a couple square blocks. Only people who spent no time in Seattle believed that crap.

The news media can make something small like that look huge. They make it sound like there are millions who believe the stuff the paper reports about when in reality there might be a couple thousand and more often than not it's a couple hundred.

Yes, a lot of people voted for Trump. That's doesn't make the few who make the papers, examples of what all the rest are like.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Non-USA & General Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:11 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.