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Old 26th December 2020, 08:59 AM   #1
Darat
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BritIn - how to start the ball rolling

Now that the brexiters have got everything* they wanted and were promised isn’t it time to kick off the campaign to join the EU?

How do we start the ball rolling? Think a lot has to be aimed at the under 35s, so that as they move into positions of influence they’ll start to build the framework.

Could we see a new referendum within the next 10 years?







*Some promises not fulfilled, we lied, you should have known we would, so what you gonna do about it?
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Old 26th December 2020, 09:13 AM   #2
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The remainers won the first EU referendum, and the leavers had to wait forty years for the second one, which they won.

Forty years would seem a fair interval before another referendum on the same subject - assuming for a moment that the EU, and the UK still exist by then.

In my opinion, it's more likely we'll get a united Ireland first - and what is currently Northern Ireland will then be back in the EU.
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Old 26th December 2020, 09:14 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
The remainers won the first EU referendum, and the leavers had to wait forty years for the second one, which they won.

Forty years would seem a fair interval before another referendum on the same subject - assuming for a moment that the EU, and the UK still exist by then.

In my opinion, it's more likely we'll get a united Ireland first - and what is currently Northern Ireland will then be back in the EU.
Why?
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Old 26th December 2020, 09:23 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Why?
Because the Brexiteers don't want to accept the lies and failure of their stupidity and feel that inflicting the consequences of said lies and failures on a new generation is fine.

But before BritIn comes ScotIn...
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Old 26th December 2020, 09:46 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Why?
Why was forty years a suitable interval between the first two EU referendums? Perhaps you think it wasn't, but that's how long we had to wait last time.
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Old 26th December 2020, 09:51 AM   #6
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Assuming one was held ten years from now, and we voted to rejoin, I wonder if the EU would want to allow us back in, given that after another ten years, it would be time for us to vote again...
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Old 26th December 2020, 12:37 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Assuming one was held ten years from now, and we voted to rejoin, I wonder if the EU would want to allow us back in, given that after another ten years, it would be time for us to vote again...
I think Keir Starmer wants a law passed to stop any future referendum from happening.
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Old 26th December 2020, 12:44 PM   #8
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Make it Engfand in since Scotland and Wales will be long gone before the campaign makes any speed.
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Old 26th December 2020, 12:45 PM   #9
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Probably the sooner the better. It's a fair probability that the EU has not even closed the books and accounts for the UK yet. They know full well that the whole Brexit thing was the result of some football hooligans getting a temporary modicum of political power by accident. And that the real UK will be much more amenable to a face-saving revision of their EU status some time in the near future when Boris becomes but a bad memory.
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Old 26th December 2020, 01:16 PM   #10
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I suspect we will have to be as economically broken as we were in the 70's before we go crawling back. It's ironic that the economic recovery EU membership brought about made the UK strong enough to indulge in delusions of going it alone once more.
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Old 26th December 2020, 01:51 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Why was forty years a suitable interval between the first two EU referendums? Perhaps you think it wasn't, but that's how long we had to wait last time.
No why do you think it should be 40 years?
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Old 26th December 2020, 01:52 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I think Keir Starmer wants a law passed to stop any future referendum from happening.
Can’t do that.
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Old 26th December 2020, 02:36 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Can’t do that.
I think it can be done for show, can't it? It can't be binding.
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Old 26th December 2020, 03:41 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
No why do you think it should be 40 years?
To make it fair. Leavers had to wait forty years before they got another go, so remainers should have to wait the same period.

Last edited by ceptimus; 26th December 2020 at 03:42 PM.
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Old 26th December 2020, 06:02 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
The remainers won the first EU referendum, and the leavers had to wait forty years for the second one, which they won.

Forty years would seem a fair interval before another referendum on the same subject - assuming for a moment that the EU, and the UK still exist by then.

In my opinion, it's more likely we'll get a united Ireland first - and what is currently Northern Ireland will then be back in the EU.
OOooh! There's an idea. Can the UK join Ireland?
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Old 26th December 2020, 06:06 PM   #16
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To be honest, the whole EU in or out thing has been idiotic from start to finish.

The question should not be based on the position of in or out, it should be based on what the UK and the EU want from membership.

If it is the four freedoms of movement of people, goods, capital and services then start a campaign to negotiate that deal.

Essentially try to win back the things that were lost without starting up some divisive argument about membership of the EU.

If the UK ends up like Switzerland or Norway, I think most people who want in will be happy, and most people who want out won't notice.
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Old 27th December 2020, 01:27 AM   #17
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When we joined, what Britain wanted was mostly free trade, aka, "common market."

As the EU developed into a political union, with the aim of becoming the United States of Europe - with shared laws, no borders, a common currency, harmonized taxes, the aim of an EU army, etc., many Brits became increasingly unhappy with the direction of travel - and that unhappiness culminated in Brexit.

It will be interesting to see if the EU continues along the same road, or whether it begins to fragment and become increasingly irrelevant, as the power, prosperity, and dominance of the Asian countries increase.
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Old 27th December 2020, 01:53 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
No why do you think it should be 40 years?
I suppose you need to give politicians time to build careers demanding BritIn, so they can be utterly unprepared when it actually happens.
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Old 27th December 2020, 02:09 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
When we joined, what Britain wanted was mostly free trade, aka, "common market."

As the EU developed into a political union, with the aim of becoming the United States of Europe - with shared laws, no borders, a common currency, harmonized taxes, the aim of an EU army, etc., many Brits became increasingly unhappy with the direction of travel - and that unhappiness culminated in Brexit.

It will be interesting to see if the EU continues along the same road, or whether it begins to fragment and become increasingly irrelevant, as the power, prosperity, and dominance of the Asian countries increase.
Seems to me that the increasing power, prosperity, and dominance of Asian countries will make the EU more relevant for European countries...
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Old 27th December 2020, 02:17 AM   #20
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The Brexiteers' plan is to bankrupt the UK, destroy the economy and become the weakest of the European Economies.
Then they will get to rejoin the EU under very favorable conditions as a goodwill case.
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Old 27th December 2020, 03:16 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
The Brexiteers' plan is to bankrupt the UK, destroy the economy and become the weakest of the European Economies.
Then they will get to rejoin the EU under very favorable conditions as a goodwill case.
Huh? Weak countries don’t get those kind of concessions. Only strong countries do and the UK had a lot going their own way in the EU before they left. Those favourable situations are unlikely to be on offer when and if they choose to rejoin.
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Old 27th December 2020, 03:28 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
To make it fair. Leavers had to wait forty years before they got another go, so remainers should have to wait the same period.
If you are using the past as a measure of “fairness” that would mean the BritIn referendum would be next year or the year after....
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Old 27th December 2020, 05:37 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Darat
If you are using the past as a measure of “fairness” that would mean the BritIn referendum would be next year or the year after....
I don't understand what you're saying here. Can you explain?


The two EU referendums, so far, were on 5 June 1975 and 23 June 2016. Where did you conjure your 2021 or 2022 date from?
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Old 27th December 2020, 06:05 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
I don't understand what you're saying here. Can you explain?


The two EU referendums, so far, were on 5 June 1975 and 23 June 2016. Where did you conjure your 2021 or 2022 date from?
We entered in 1973, we were asked if we wanted to stay in 2 years later. We’ve left so according to your “fairness” it is only fair that we should be asked do we want to stay out 2 years later, which is either next year if you include the transition year or the year after if you don’t.

But you do know how utterly childish your view is in regarding to when to have referendum? Most of us stopped that kid of childish petulance by the time we entered junior school.
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Old 27th December 2020, 06:29 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Darat
utterly childish your view is

No need for insults. Please remember the forum rules.


Your argument doesn't make sense. We weren't asked when we entered, and were asked to 'confirm' that decision by referendum a couple of years later. Then there was a forty-one year interval before the next referendum. Yet you claim an interval of just five or six years would be appropriate this time. You've already been asking for a second go for the last four years - and that's before the democratic decision made by the country had even been implemented. That's because you were on the losing side this time - when a decision goes against your own views you want to reverse it as soon as possible. When the decision goes your way, you think it should stand forever.

Last edited by ceptimus; 27th December 2020 at 06:36 AM.
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Old 27th December 2020, 08:52 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
No need for insults. Please remember the forum rules.

...childish nonsense snipped...
I said your views on when another referendum were childish, and that is because they are, they are an “argument” that belongs in the playground when playing tag.
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Old 27th December 2020, 09:39 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
OOooh! There's an idea. Can the UK join Ireland?
No. Definitely not.
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Old 27th December 2020, 09:41 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Your argument doesn't make sense. We weren't asked when we entered, and were asked to 'confirm' that decision by referendum a couple of years later. Then there was a forty-one year interval before the next referendum. Yet you claim an interval of just five or six years would be appropriate this time. You've already been asking for a second go for the last four years - and that's before the democratic decision made by the country had even been implemented. That's because you were on the losing side this time - when a decision goes against your own views you want to reverse it as soon as possible. When the decision goes your way, you think it should stand forever.
The timing of elections and referendums doesn't work that way.

Let's say a Labour government is two years into its term of office and calls an election, which it loses. Can it demand a new election two years into the term of the new government, on the grounds that it's that long since the new one came in?

If the outgoing government served the full five years, can the new government claim that it's entitled to the same 5 years, no matter what the circumstances?

Sometimes these things reflect the circumstances of the day and are called when appropriate, not according to some formula based on when they're 'due'. The Brexit we're facing is significantly different from the one we were promised and, for my money, the circumstances have already changed. Two years should be plenty enough for the public to make up its mind on the matter (except, of course, the Brexiteers will lie relentlessly just as they did last time).

Anyway, I think the EU would be nuts to let us back in, so it's probably moot.
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Old 27th December 2020, 09:51 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
No. Definitely not.
Not even England bar the south east?
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Old 27th December 2020, 11:43 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Not even England bar the south east?
Look we don't actually want Norn Iron, we certainly don't want the rest of the failed state.
Well except Scotland, we could probably do come sort of 'Celtic Union' once the UK crumbles.
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Old 29th December 2020, 02:38 PM   #31
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You can campaign for anything you wish, and I support your democratic right to try, but be prepared for disappointment.

Brexit was never just about the economy, it was about our sovereignty.
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Old 30th December 2020, 06:50 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
To make it fair. Leavers had to wait forty years before they got another go, so remainers should have to wait the same period.
Leavers could have had their referendum anytime they wanted if they were able to get a government elected who promoted the policy. isn't that how democracy works?

Unlike other parts of the UK the English Nationalists even had the benefit of not having to get the rest of the UK to deign to allow them to have their say.
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Old 30th December 2020, 06:55 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
You can campaign for anything you wish, and I support your democratic right to try, but be prepared for disappointment.

Brexit was never just about the economy, it was about our sovereignty.
Where sovereignty means the right to send brown people back
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Old 30th December 2020, 07:02 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Look we don't actually want Norn Iron, we certainly don't want the rest of the failed state.
Well except Scotland, we could probably do come sort of 'Celtic Union' once the UK crumbles.
Scottish and Irish don’t tend to mix well without the buffer of shared hatred of the English.
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Old 30th December 2020, 07:41 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
OOooh! There's an idea. Can the UK join Ireland?
Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
No. Definitely not.
Okay, well my son and I have Irish citizenship and passports anyway.
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Old 30th December 2020, 07:57 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
The Brexiteers' plan is to bankrupt the UK, destroy the economy and become the weakest of the European Economies.
Then they will get to rejoin the EU under very favorable conditions as a goodwill case.

No, I think it’s just to control immigration. **** the whole place up so that nobody will want to come here.
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Old 30th December 2020, 08:10 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Scottish and Irish don’t tend to mix well without the buffer of shared hatred of the English.
https://www.thejournal.ie/ireland-sc...77490-Nov2019/

No doubt 'hating the English' will be the one and only thing on the list when the report is publish. Yawn.
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Old 30th December 2020, 08:36 AM   #38
catsmate
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
You can campaign for anything you wish, and I support your democratic right to try, but be prepared for disappointment.

Brexit was never just about the economy, it was about our sovereignty.

It was about racism, xenophobia, greed, English exceptionalism and delusions of Imperial entitlement.
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As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
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Old 30th December 2020, 10:12 AM   #39
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The reason the second referendum took 40 years is not that it's a suitable length of time, it's that (despite the constant dripping poison of certain newspapers blaming Barmy Brussels for everything under the sun) people just weren't that bothered. Getting out of the EU was a tiny little-Englander niche of UK politics until the addition of a bunch of Eastern European members suddenly filled the country with Polish plumbers. Even then, that new visible (or rather audible) minority wasn't enough to bump it to the top the political agenda. That took the Syrian civil war and the panic over ISIS-supporting Muslim assylagrants who were clamouring to come over here and murder us all in our beds. And okay they weren't Europeans but it was definitely somehow still the French's fault and they are Europeans.

So, no, I don't think there's anything significant about 40 years. We just need to wait and see how long it takes the country to lose its collective mind again over some half-understood issue.
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Old 30th December 2020, 01:53 PM   #40
dudalb
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I think the Pain has got to set in big time before a rejoin effort will gain momentum.
ANd by that time Scotland, at least, will be gone.
I actually have some sympathy for the view that the EU should stick to economic matters and forget tying to be a "United States Of Europe" but I think that was better fought from within, and the EU's attempts to istick it nose in purely political and legal matters have generally failed.
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Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
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