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Old 30th December 2020, 01:54 PM   #41
dudalb
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
You can campaign for anything you wish, and I support your democratic right to try, but be prepared for disappointment.

Brexit was never just about the economy, it was about our sovereignty.
THat will be a great line when Scotland leaves the UK.....
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Old 30th December 2020, 05:09 PM   #42
Archie Gemmill Goal
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
THat will be a great line when Scotland leaves the UK.....
Most Brexiteers don't support Scotland's democratic right to leave the UK unfortunately.

It's almost as if they might be liars.
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Old 30th December 2020, 05:53 PM   #43
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I support Scotland's right to leave. But I also think:

A. When a referendum is held, and parties state they will honour the result for ten years / a generation / at least until the result is implemented, then they should keep their promise.

B. If Scotland does get another referendum soon, and votes to leave this time, then I shall wish them good luck, but I expect them to be worse off, and that many will regret their decision.

C. If the SNP get another referendum and lose again, then I fully expect them to request more referendums - regardless of what they say in advance of it - just like they're doing right now. It's almost as if they might be liars.

If other UK countries vote to leave, I wish them well too. I think there is a more compelling case for a united Ireland than an independent Scotland.

Last edited by ceptimus; 30th December 2020 at 05:58 PM.
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Old 30th December 2020, 11:20 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
I support Scotland's right to leave. But I also think:

A. When a referendum is held, and parties state they will honour the result for ten years / a generation / at least until the result is implemented, then they should keep their promise.

B. If Scotland does get another referendum soon, and votes to leave this time, then I shall wish them good luck, but I expect them to be worse off, and that many will regret their decision.

C. If the SNP get another referendum and lose again, then I fully expect them to request more referendums - regardless of what they say in advance of it - just like they're doing right now. It's almost as if they might be liars.

If other UK countries vote to leave, I wish them well too. I think there is a more compelling case for a united Ireland than an independent Scotland.
Re: A, Given that the referendum the Scots got was won on the 'if you leave you'll be out of the EU and we'll veto your ability to join independently' I'd say they are fully in their rights to get another referendum now that the English forced them out of the EU when they did not want to leave.
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Old 30th December 2020, 11:54 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
When a referendum is held, and parties state they will honour the result for ten years / a generation / at least until the result is implemented, then they should keep their promise.

How about if parties said something like, In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way?
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Old 31st December 2020, 01:14 AM   #46
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One element of racism is lumping everyone into a homogeneity defined by a single characteristic. There is no more a 'Scottish' view of Brexit than there is an 'English' view. Both are diverse multiethnic countries with people having differing opinions.

To get back to the topic, rather than derailing into Scottish independence, the best case for Brexin will be made with patience. Starting a campaign now will just appear to be a sore loser. Time will reveal that Brexit was a bad idea (or less likely that the EU runs into increasing economic problems due to a conflict of philosophical purity with reality as happened with the ERM), time will make the case. I will be interested to see given a bit of time to analyse the current deal whether the labour party will enter into a manifesto commitment to enter into a closer relationship with the EU, since realignment will be an essential requirement to re-entry. A referendum is unlikely with a Tory government so those who want Brexin are best to (re) join the labour party and influence its policy; realignment and re-entry. Equally given that the best likelihood of future Westminster government being labour (or labour SNP alliance )is if those who support Brexin oppose the break up of the UK, since Welsh and Scottish MPs are more likely to be members of a socialist party and a labour government is more likely with a UK. Strategically the SNP may be best to support a UK re-entry with a commitment to an independence referendum post re-entry with Scotland having a commitment from the EU that it could remain in the EU as an independent country along with the rest of the UK following re-entry. Scottish re-entry if not accompanied by England would be difficult because of the common border, the EU would require a border infra-structure. So join the labour party, influence policy, oppose the break up of the UK (for now).
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Old 31st December 2020, 02:30 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
One element of racism is lumping everyone into a homogeneity defined by a single characteristic. There is no more a 'Scottish' view of Brexit than there is an 'English' view. Both are diverse multiethnic countries with people having differing opinions.
Of course, but lumping everyone together is what democratic voting is supposed to achieve. The argument is in danger of labelling democracy as racist.

Democracy works best when the losing side accepts that it lost and tries to make the best of the decision. Democracy suffers when the losing side refuses to accept the result, and instead attempts to label those on the other side of the vote as liars, racists, or worse.

Last edited by ceptimus; 31st December 2020 at 02:31 AM.
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Old 31st December 2020, 03:28 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post

Brexit was never just about the economy, it was about our sovereignty.
Wait, what? We always had sovereignty. We could veto just about anything we didn't like. We where a part of making EU legislation.

I thought this sovereignty nonsense died about the time people realised Project Fear was actually Project Reality.
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Old 31st December 2020, 03:31 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Democracy works best when the losing side accepts that it lost and tries to make the best of the decision. Democracy suffers when the losing side refuses to accept the result, and instead attempts to label those on the other side of the vote as liars, racists, or worse.
Democracy works best when it takes into account the will of the majority. It is obvious most people in the UK now want to remain in the EU.

Our young shouldn't be held to, and made to suffer for, the myopic, racist decisions of their soon to be six feet under elders.
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Old 31st December 2020, 04:12 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
It is obvious most people in the UK now want to remain in the EU.

No. It isn't.


Quote:
Our young shouldn't be held to, and made to suffer for, the myopic, racist decisions of their soon to be six feet under elders.


There you go, insulting the other side again. Why is it these days that the losers in democratic elections are so childish that they resort to insulting the other side rather than trying to understand why they lost? We've seen this lately with:
  • Trump and his supporters in the USA election.
  • The Remainers in the Brexit vote.
  • The Scottish Nationalists in the Scottish Independence referendum.
Some privileged people just can't accept they were on the losing side - they have a huge blind spot - they're arrogant enough to believe that they're always right. When they lose, they accuse the other side of cheating, stupidity, racism, lying, and so on. One wonders why, when they're so clever, they repeatedly lose against people they think are stupid racist cheating liars.
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Old 31st December 2020, 04:17 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
No. It isn't.






There you go, insulting the other side again. Why is it these days that the losers in democratic elections are so childish that they resort to insulting the other side rather than trying to understand why they lost? We've seen this lately with:
  • Trump and his supporters in the USA election.
  • The Remainers in the Brexit vote.
  • The Scottish Nationalists in the Scottish Independence referendum.
Some privileged people just can't accept they were on the losing side - they have a huge blind spot - they're arrogant enough to believe that they're always right. When they lose, they accuse the other side of cheating, stupidity, racism, lying, and so on. One wonders why, when they're so clever, they repeatedly lose against people they think are stupid racist cheating liars.
Who lost repeatedly? Or are the SNP, Remainers and Donald Trump all one nefarious entity?
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Old 31st December 2020, 04:27 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Guybrush Threepwood View Post
Who lost repeatedly? Or are the SNP, Remainers and Donald Trump all one nefarious entity?
The remainers lost repeatedly. There have been many elections in addition to the referendum and each time, the remain-supporting side lost:
  • Multiple EU elections where UKIP or the Brexit party won.
  • The Tories gaining a majority because they promised an in-out referendum.
  • The referendum itself.
  • The two General elections since the referendum. Remain supporting parties, which stood in constituencies across the whole country, lost out, and the most vehemently remain-supporting parties lost the most.
It's interesting that the only remain supporting parties that did well - the Scottish and Welsh nationalists, are those parties that exist mainly because they want to break away from the larger political entity their countries belong to. They want to break away from their Union, but strangely wished that union to remain part of an even larger, less democratic, union. But of course, those parties only campaign within their own areas: that's perhaps why they have a blinkered view and think their view is the majority one, when clearly it isn't.

Last edited by ceptimus; 31st December 2020 at 04:42 AM.
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Old 31st December 2020, 06:00 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
I thought this sovereignty nonsense died about the time people realised Project Fear was actually Project Reality.
Inappropriate use of the past tense.

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Old 31st December 2020, 08:12 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
I support Scotland's right to leave. But I also think:

A. When a referendum is held, and parties state they will honour the result for ten years / a generation / at least until the result is implemented, then they should keep their promise.
The problem is that you selectively chose what promises you assert "must be kept" and which ones don't matter at all. No one is going to take claims like you are making here seriously if you apply this type of a double standard.

IMO referendums are all just show anyway. Scotland should just skip the referendum and go straight to leaving the UK so it can rejoin the EU. Ideally this should be the subject of an election campaign though.
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Old 31st December 2020, 08:22 AM   #55
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Scotland wouldn't meet the EU's rules on deficits (the deficit has to be less than 3% of GDP) and therefore would struggle to join.

Barring treaty change, Scotland would be required to join the Euro.
Do you really think they want to ?

Scotland exports 16.1bn to the EU whilst it exports 51.2bn to the rest of the UK, source:
https://www.gov.scot/publications/ex...scotland-2018/

Non tariff barriers and customs checks will exist between the EU and UK from 1st January (tomorrow), they would exist between the rest of the UK and Scotland.

The SNP continually get fewer votes than the NO campaign got in 2014.

Opinion polls cannot be trusted.

The "once in a lifetime" referendum vote was not dependent on Scotland remaining in the EU.
The SNP's inability to tell Scots what currency they'd be using once out of the UK was a big factor in their 2014 defeat.
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Old 31st December 2020, 08:24 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Of course, but lumping everyone together is what democratic voting is supposed to achieve. The argument is in danger of labelling democracy as racist.

Democracy works best when the losing side accepts that it lost and tries to make the best of the decision. Democracy suffers when the losing side refuses to accept the result, and instead attempts to label those on the other side of the vote as liars, racists, or worse.
Maybe if the winning side does what they said they would do, but if they don't then all bets are off. This is WHY Parliament not being bound to rulings of previous Parliaments is the cornerstone of British Democracy.

If you supported real democracy you would acknowledge this, but the reality is that Brexit itself is just a step in process of foisting things on the UK that the people don't want and would never vote for if it were laid out clearly and cleanly. The EU was standing in the way of this type of deception so the UK needed to leave the EU before the suppression of democracy in the UK could be completed.
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Old 31st December 2020, 08:40 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
The problem is that you selectively chose what promises you assert "must be kept" and which ones don't matter at all.
Promises like, "We will honour the referendum result" were always capable of being kept, and should have been kept.

On the other hand, promises such as, "We will negotiate a cracking deal", or "You will be richer / poorer if you vote for this", were dependent on things the promisers had no control over: the position the EU would adopt in negotiations, and future events that could only be predicted by unreliable models. These second type of promises were rightly treated with suspicion by intelligent voters - when you hear this sort of thing, you know that it's just campaigning blather and will likely never happen.
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Old 31st December 2020, 08:47 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Promises like, "We will honour the referendum result" were always capable of being kept, and should have been kept.
Promises that can't be kept should never be made in the first place. Votes based on such promises CANNOT be binding if you want a real democracy.
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Old 31st December 2020, 08:58 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
The remainers lost repeatedly. There have been many elections in addition to the referendum and each time, the remain-supporting side lost:
  • Multiple EU elections where UKIP or the Brexit party won.
  • The Tories gaining a majority because they promised an in-out referendum.
  • The referendum itself.
  • The two General elections since the referendum. Remain supporting parties, which stood in constituencies across the whole country, lost out, and the most vehemently remain-supporting parties lost the most.
It's interesting that the only remain supporting parties that did well - the Scottish and Welsh nationalists, are those parties that exist mainly because they want to break away from the larger political entity their countries belong to. They want to break away from their Union, but strangely wished that union to remain part of an even larger, less democratic, union. But of course, those parties only campaign within their own areas: that's perhaps why they have a blinkered view and think their view is the majority one, when clearly it isn't.

You cannot use General Elections as a metric. Sensible people realise there are a multitude of other things to consider when voting in a GE.

Myopic, racist Brexiters simply didn't/don't care about the damage done to the country, they just voted en masse for the Tories, determined to deliver Brexit. The Remain vote was split. IIRC, if we totalled all the votes, the parties supporting another referendum or re-joining got more than the Leavers.

I will continue to insult racist, myopic Brexiters because that is all they deserve. They where prepared to throw the current young generation to the wolves simply to fulfil their racist, myopic dream.
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Old 31st December 2020, 09:22 AM   #60
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Calling all Brexiteers racist is myopic and prejudiced.
There are some remainers who are racist.
Oswald Mosley campaigned to remain in the EEC in 1975.
Should I judge you all as being the same ? No.

Do not call this democratic exercise "racism".

Start examining why you lost.

Try to realise that by insulting people and calling them racist, those of you who used the tactic pushed them away and got them to stop listening to you.
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Old 31st December 2020, 09:29 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
Calling all Brexiteers racist is myopic and prejudiced.
There are some remainers who are racist.
Oswald Mosley campaigned to remain in the EEC in 1975.
Should I judge you all as being the same ? No.

Do not call this democratic exercise "racism".

Start examining why you lost.

Try to realise that by insulting people and calling them racist, those of you who used the tactic pushed them away and got them to stop listening to you.
Yeah don't call a racist a racist or he might just act racist in response..
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Old 31st December 2020, 09:33 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
Calling all Brexiteers racist is myopic and prejudiced.
There are some remainers who are racist.
Oswald Mosley campaigned to remain in the EEC in 1975.
Should I judge you all as being the same ? No.

Do not call this democratic exercise "racism".

Start examining why you lost.

Try to realise that by insulting people and calling them racist, those of you who used the tactic pushed them away and got them to stop listening to you.

The best i heard on this was 'Not all who voted for Brexit are racist, but all racists voted for Brexit.
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Old 31st December 2020, 09:56 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Promises that can't be kept should never be made in the first place.
Of course those promises could have been kept.
And there were many ways in which to keep the promises.
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Old 31st December 2020, 09:57 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by KarlG View Post
The best i heard on this was 'Not all who voted for Brexit are racist, but all racists voted for Brexit.
Not all remainers are racist but all racists voted for EU membership.

Like that ?

It's just as true and offensive as your false statement.

It's delusionally bigoted and ridiculous to blanket tar an entire demographic.
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Old 31st December 2020, 10:00 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
Yeah don't call a racist a racist or he might just act racist in response..
Your argument is just as bigoted ignorant and prejudiced as any racist.

Utterly devoid of any critical thinking whatsoever.
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Old 31st December 2020, 10:01 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Most Brexiteers don't support Scotland's democratic right to leave the UK unfortunately.

It's almost as if they might be liars.
I supported Scotland's democratic right to leave the UK, but Scotland voted not to.
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Old 31st December 2020, 10:55 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
You cannot use General Elections as a metric. Sensible people realise there are a multitude of other things to consider when voting in a GE.
Yes, but all the parties said that Brexit would be the MAIN issue, in both elections, and spent the majority of their campaign time, and campaign funds, on that issue.

If you want a pure, single-issue vote, then you have the referendum itself - but you always wanted to reject that result, didn't you?

Last edited by ceptimus; 31st December 2020 at 11:01 AM.
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Old 31st December 2020, 11:01 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
Of course those promises could have been kept.
And there were many ways in which to keep the promises.
The promises made by the leave campaign fall into 2 categories.
1) the ones that could have been kept but were blatantly ignored
2) the ones that were impossible to keep in the first place.

In either case the fact that the promises were not kept is more than sufficient reason to invalidate the referendum. Not that it needed to be invalidated, because one of the promises that has been blatantly ignored is that the referendum was non-binding. There was never any principle of democracy that ever required it to be acted on.
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Old 31st December 2020, 11:04 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
Wait, what? We always had sovereignty. We could veto just about anything we didn't like. We where a part of making EU legislation.

I thought this sovereignty nonsense died about the time people realised Project Fear was actually Project Reality.
Not to Brexiteers, they're still denying awkward realities.

Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
Democracy works best when it takes into account the will of the majority. It is obvious most people in the UK now want to remain in the EU.

Our young shouldn't be held to, and made to suffer for, the myopic, racist decisions of their soon to be six feet under elders.
Now why would anyone want to listen to the young?

And as far as the Brexiteers are concerned once they've won there can be no more referenda that might allow reconsideration of the folly.
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Old 31st December 2020, 11:14 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
The promises made by the leave campaign fall into 2 categories.
1) the ones that could have been kept but were blatantly ignored
2) the ones that were impossible to keep in the first place.

In either case the fact that the promises were not kept is more than sufficient reason to invalidate the referendum. Not that it needed to be invalidated, because one of the promises that has been blatantly ignored is that the referendum was non-binding. There was never any principle of democracy that ever required it to be acted on.
There is something in that.

The Vote Leave campaign reassured the voters that what they were voting for was a safe option because we'd still be in a pan-European free trade area and we'd get a new deal between the UK and EU sorted out in advance, before we began the process of leaving.

e.g. Here:


The voters made their choice in, as you rightly point out, a non-binding referendum, but then it soon became clear that the promise of negotiating a new deal before triggering Article 50 could not be delivered.

There's a case there for saying sorry, we can't deliver what you asked for, and ending the process.

Instead we got crashing ahead with empty bluster and blandishments about how easy it was going to be in the hope that people would soon forget whatever it was they thought they had asked for.
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Old 31st December 2020, 11:43 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
And as far as the Brexiteers are concerned once they've won there can be no more referenda that might allow reconsideration of the folly.
I don't think anyone's advocating that. Of course there can be another referendum eventually - assuming that the EU still exists, would allow the UK to rejoin, and that opinion polls show that a majority of Brits consistently want such a referendum.

But you have to implement the result of the first referendum first - and allow a reasonable period of time for people to see how it turns out.
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Old 31st December 2020, 01:29 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Yes, but all the parties said that Brexit would be the MAIN issue, in both elections, and spent the majority of their campaign time, and campaign funds, on that issue.

If you want a pure, single-issue vote, then you have the referendum itself - but you always wanted to reject that result, didn't you?
No-one has rejected the result. We have left the EU. Being a main issue of many issues is not the same as being a single issue. That's the difference.

Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
I don't think anyone's advocating that. Of course there can be another referendum eventually - assuming that the EU still exists, would allow the UK to rejoin, and that opinion polls show that a majority of Brits consistently want such a referendum.

But you have to implement the result of the first referendum first - and allow a reasonable period of time for people to see how it turns out.
The referendum has been implemented. It would have been implemented ages before it was if Brexit supporting MP's hadn't held the process up.

Opinion polls already show a majority of Brits wanting to remain:

https://www.businessinsider.com/brex...20-6?r=US&IR=T

"There has been a surge in support for European Union membership among the British public since the Brexit referendum, a major new survey found.

The European Social Survey, conducted every two years, found that support for the EU had risen across the continent and in Britain.

The survey, completed in 2019 and released this week, found that 57% of Brits said they would vote to be inside the EU, compared with 50% who said the same in the previous survey, released in 2018.

By contrast, just 35% said they would vote to be outside the EU, compared with the 52% of people who voted to leave in 2016."

I see no reason to wait and see the folly fully realised.
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Old 31st December 2020, 01:35 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
And as far as the Brexiteers are concerned once they've won there can be no more referenda that might allow reconsideration of the folly.
I seem to recall a certain man who got beaten by a dolphin proclaiming if Remain had won by a small margin he would have immediately started campaigning for a second referendum. Yet when Leave won by a small majority he started screeching "no backsies".
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Old 31st December 2020, 01:38 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
The promises made by the leave campaign fall into 2 categories.
I didn't vote because of the leave campaign or the remain campaign, I voted to leave the EU because I believe in democracy.

I believe that the laws which affect this country should be made in this country, by a government we can sack, and that the laws, if we do not like them, can be changed by our democratic votes.

That, is not only POSSIBLE to deliver, but for better or worse economically, easy in principle to deliver.

And if you stopped debating the in / out argument (which incidentally you lost in 2016) and moved on to the what independent policies we can enact, the dialogue would start to get interesting, instead of tedious.
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Old 31st December 2020, 02:05 PM   #75
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Okay; what independent policies should we enact to stop the motor industry, aerospace and banking services drifting away from the UK to relocate inside the EU over the next decade?
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Old 31st December 2020, 02:11 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
I didn't vote because of the leave campaign or the remain campaign, I voted to leave the EU because I believe in democracy
Democracy. The rule of the majority. If it can be shown that the majority of people want to stay in the EU then I take it you will fully support a second referendum?
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Old 31st December 2020, 02:19 PM   #77
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All the majority had to do was vote Lib Dem last year and you'd have got your wish.

But there should be another membership referendum in time.
I would hold it in the year 2036, 16 years from now.

If you think that's a long time, pause for a moment and consider something.

Your side didn't even want us to have the choice of a referendum on the Maastricht treaty.
It took 24 years from ratifying that treaty, to us having a membership referendum.

You lost.
You're going through the five stages of grief and acting like an extremist too I might add.

DENIAL.
ANGER.
BARGAINING.
DEPRESSION.
You need to move to ACCEPTANCE.
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Old 31st December 2020, 08:11 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
All the majority had to do was vote Lib Dem last year and you'd have got your wish.

But there should be another membership referendum in time.
I would hold it in the year 2036, 16 years from now.

If you think that's a long time, pause for a moment and consider something.

Your side didn't even want us to have the choice of a referendum on the Maastricht treaty.
It took 24 years from ratifying that treaty, to us having a membership referendum.

You lost.
You're going through the five stages of grief and acting like an extremist too I might add.

DENIAL.
ANGER.
BARGAINING.
DEPRESSION.
You need to move to ACCEPTANCE.
Spoken like a true Brexiter.

"I believe in Democracy, even though it's clear that the majority want to be in the EU, I don't want them to have their way. When I say I believe in Democracy, I mean I believe in it when I get what I want. Once I get what I want, Democracy should stop for an arbitrary amount of time that I choose.

This is justified because I harbour resentment for decisions made nearly 30 years ago.

I don't care that the young are the ones that will actually suffer, I don't care that I'm the minority, I got what I want. That's enough Democracy for me."

Pathetic.
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Old 31st December 2020, 08:18 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
assuming that the EU still exists,
I missed this. Of course the EU will still exist. It's one of the most powerful trading blocs on the planet. One that is powerful enough that countries like the USA cannot just throw terms at it and expect it to agree.
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Old 1st January 2021, 01:27 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
There is something in that.

The Vote Leave campaign reassured the voters that what they were voting for was a safe option because we'd still be in a pan-European free trade area and we'd get a new deal between the UK and EU sorted out in advance, before we began the process of leaving.
Unfortunately, the EU refuses to negotiate any deal with any existing member - and their self-imposed rule continues to apply even after a country has decided to leave, and is in the process of leaving. One can understand why - they don't want to make it easy for a country to leave, because they fear that lots of countries would then leave.

It's one of the many reasons that Brexit was the long drawn out, tedious and frustrating process that it became. If and when other countries vote to leave, then they'll have the benefit of the Brexit example - they'll know that it's a huge waste of time to allow the EU to string out the negotiations for years: far better to just leave as fast as possible.

Last edited by ceptimus; 1st January 2021 at 01:31 AM.
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