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Tags Black Panthers , Bradley Schlozman , department of justice , Eric Holder , J. Christian Adams , Malik Zulu Shabazz , minutemen , racism charges , voter intimidation

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Old 8th July 2010, 08:42 PM   #161
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While I don't think it's a big deal in the grand scheme of things, and the republicans are trying to make a much bigger issue out of it than it merits, they probably shouldn't have dropped the charges. If there's not enough evidence, let a judge decide that.

But it's not something I'll lose a second of sleep over. It's not like they actually attacked anyone or actually prevented anyone from voting, or even tried to. The guy had a weapon where he shouldn't have had a weapon. It's like speeding or running a red light, which I don't condone, but it's not the worst crime in the world. When the police told him to leave, he left.
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Old 8th July 2010, 08:51 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
While I don't think it's a big deal in the grand scheme of things, and the republicans are trying to make a much bigger issue out of it than it merits, they probably shouldn't have dropped the charges. If there's not enough evidence, let a judge decide that.

But it's not something I'll lose a second of sleep over. It's not like they actually attacked anyone or actually prevented anyone from voting, or even tried to. The guy had a weapon where he shouldn't have had a weapon. It's like speeding or running a red light, which I don't condone, but it's not the worst crime in the world. When the police told him to leave, he left.
I wouldn't minimize it like that, but then I think posing aggressively in public with a weapon is kind of a big deal. It probably doesn't rise to the level of voter intimidation, given that from what I can tell its not a commonly available charge, but I don't think it's comparable to a traffic violation.
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Old 8th July 2010, 09:47 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by joobz View Post
Why is equivalent treatment under the law considered "payback".
Then David should be more concerned about the "low standards" of the law than the "low standards" of the Politics forum.
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Old 8th July 2010, 10:03 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
Wow, that is pretty weak even by the low standards of the Politics forum.
Hey what can I say, weak posts get weak retorts.
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Old 9th July 2010, 12:56 AM   #165
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Prosecutors make decisions on whether to bring charges based on evidence all the time. It's kinda their job. They don't just bring everything in front of a judge and ask "is this enough now?"
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Old 9th July 2010, 03:38 AM   #166
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Oh, a sane discussion. Thank you.

Originally Posted by Travis View Post
Prosecutors make decisions on whether to bring charges based on evidence all the time.
...based on evidence, time, and money.

I don't know which factors were at play here, but there is nothing inherently nefarious about not prosecuting a particular case.

Besides, it has to be hard to prove voter intimidation when the video evidence shows people freely walking in and out of the polling place.
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Old 9th July 2010, 04:00 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by BeAChooser View Post
Then David should be more concerned about the "low standards" of the law than the "low standards" of the Politics forum.
This is in no way a logical response to my statement.

Why is equivalent treatment under the law considered "payback"?
DO you believe Bush's DoJ were being racist by not seeking criminal action?
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Old 9th July 2010, 04:02 AM   #168
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Um charges were not dismissed against Samir Shabazz, the case was not outright dismissed. And the other thread has much relevant discussion in and amongst the usual Politics forum nonsense.

Part of the issue is the actual statute has no interpretive values of what consititutes intimidation and historically a high bar has been set.

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At the outset, let me emphasize with respect to Section 11(b) decisions that these are hard cases. Very few such cases have been brought. In fact, we can find records of only three cases filed by the government under Section 11(b) since its inception.
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Last edited by Dancing David; 9th July 2010 at 04:08 AM.
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Old 9th July 2010, 04:14 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
Does it merit further investigation?
I still don't know if they should have dropped charges. The claim is that past precedent makes the cases hard to prosecute. However, I do not know how true that is.

In either Case, The King guy is a little...off kilter.
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Malik Zulu Shabazz: Beck has had me on before, I’ve been on Sean Hannity about 20 times, he’s under orders not to have me on, Bill O’Reilly’s under orders not to have me on. This is all a conspiracy. I would say a Zionist conspiracy, but you would say “He’s too conspiratorial.”

But it’s some kind of conspiracy going on, to keep the truth out, and to keep us off the airwaves, to keep talking about us, but not talk to us. So we’ll see Glenn Beck live in person. I don’t think his rally should be allowed to happen
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Old 9th July 2010, 05:05 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by joobz View Post
This is in no way a logical response to my statement.
Welcome to futility.
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Old 9th July 2010, 05:20 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by joobz View Post
In either Case, The King guy is a little...off kilter.
Man, those Zionists are busy!
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Old 9th July 2010, 05:51 AM   #172
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Of those witnesses identified whom I have been able to research at all, none of them strike me as entirely credible. As soon as i hear one of them slip in something to the effect of "ACORN! Squawk!" I am out of there and not looking back.

It is generally also futile to prosecute a schizo, and there are signs that Shabazz may be kind of unravelling at the edges.

He's known by how many self-selected names?
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Old 9th July 2010, 06:28 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by BeAChooser View Post
What can be the problem with the evidence in this case? There is a sworn affidavit by a highly regarded democrat who observed what happened, is knowledgeable about what constitutes voter intimidation, and who says this was a very serious case of intimidation.
There is also a link in another thread to a video of him babbling about ACORN as though they were evil incarnate. Whether or not he was at one time a "highly respected Democrat," he has clearly gone over to the dark side now, or may be losing his marbles. That is the defect in the evidence.

Quote:
And there is a video to prove that the men were there, were brandishing a night stick, were dressed in paramiltitary garb and were standing right in from of the polling place doors.
Get your facts straight. ONE of them was and he is a known nut job.

Quote:
Now why would they not contest the charges unless they felt they had another way of getting off? Which suggests we probe whether these defendants or anyone representing them had behind the scenes contacts with any members of the Obama administration.
Totally speculative and inadmissible.

Quote:
How can you settle the debate on whether DOJ officials made a racist decision per Adam's claims, if you aren't willing to even investigate the matter or take sworn statements from the parties involved? What I see going on is a whitewash by the Obama administration and his supporters at JREF. So much for hope and change.
Given the fact that it is nearly impossible to get any action on more blatant attempts at voter intimidation and disenfranchisement, this case is only worth the expense from the point of view of the lunatic right.
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Old 9th July 2010, 07:08 AM   #174
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I would prefer the administration be a bit tougher on these violations. That they have not been so in the past nor in the present won't really keep me up at night. Very isolated incidents, while regrettable, have no impact. If it became more systematic or widespread then I would have a bit more trouble sleeping and would start agitating for action.
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Old 9th July 2010, 07:14 AM   #175
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Before a penny is thrownm down the rat hole trying to get a felony conviction agaisnt an obviously mentally ill person, there are voting irregularities of far greater consequence with which the government should deal.

Like how does a space case who nobody heard of beat a sitting government official in votes counted on an unreadable electronic voting system but get his butt handed to him on paper ballots? That warrants an investigation.

Shabazz is just a shiney thing that the rightwhackers are waving right now to deflect attention from real oddities like South Carolina.
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Old 9th July 2010, 07:30 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
Man, those Zionists are busy!
On that, it seems, MagZ and Shabazz agree.
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Old 9th July 2010, 08:11 AM   #177
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One part of the job of a prosecutor is to only bring charges where he reasonably expects conviction. It is NOT to just bring charges everywhere and "let the courts sort it out". If they did that, our courts would teem with frivolous charges brought by prosecutors looking to cover their asses. After all, no one can get in trouble for just filing charges and letting the judge hear it out. That's awful public policy!

If the Bush DOJ declined to bring these charges, you can reasonably assume a conviction would have been unlikely. When you look at the precedent of the statute, this is borne out. So yes, charges should not have been filed in this case under this statute.
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Old 9th July 2010, 04:48 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Welcome to futility.
Says the poster who for all intents and purposes called Bartle Bull a liar.

And I asked you whether you'd find three Ku Klux Klan members in their uniforms, with nightsticks (or even without), standing in front of a polling place, menacing.

But you didn't respond.

Was that a futile query on my part, Upchurch?
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Old 9th July 2010, 04:49 PM   #179
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Yeah, I wish the DOJ had done more to go after these Black Panther members. They don't seem much different than the Klan in reverse.

http://michellemalkin.com/2010/07/09...-black-racism/
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Old 9th July 2010, 05:01 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by NoScotsman View Post
Watching that video I had two thoughts: 1. The Black Panthers still exist???
They don't. The "New Black Panther Party" started as a split from the Nation of Islam by some of its crazier (!) members. They've been consistently denounced by the living ex-Panthers, and IIRC Bobby Seale even tried suing them a few years ago for their use of the name.
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Old 9th July 2010, 05:28 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by BeAChooser View Post
Says the poster who for all intents and purposes called Bartle Bull a liar.
Bull shot himself in the foot when he was taped whining about ACORN. He's gone over to the dark side.

Quote:
And I asked you whether you'd find three Ku Klux Klan members in their uniforms, with nightsticks (or even without), standing in front of a polling place, menacing.
I assume, then, that you would be cool with rounding up and disarming all the unofficial militias.
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Old 9th July 2010, 05:44 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by leftysergeant View Post
There is also a link in another thread to a video of him babbling about ACORN as though they were evil incarnate.
Yes, lefty, we know you think ACORN is a fine, respectable organization that can do no wrong.

Originally Posted by leftysergeant View Post
Get your facts straight. ONE of them was and he is a known nut job.
My facts were right. I said, A nightstick.

But you are right in calling the man a nut. But if he's known to be one, why is he still a member in good standing of the New Black Party? And just to show how big a menace this man and this organization potentially are to society, check out what Shabazz, the new head of the NBP, said recently about King Samir and what he says the NBP stands for:

http://videos.mediaite.com/video/New...-Chairman-Mali

King Samir talked of killing crackers and "white babies". And Shabazz seemed very hesitant to go on record whether he condoned killing "white babies" and most certainly implied that his organization might approve of killing cops. Why is the Obama administration going out of it's way to protect these two and the NBP?

Originally Posted by leftysergeant View Post
Quote:
Now why would they not contest the charges unless they felt they had another way of getting off? Which suggests we probe whether these defendants or anyone representing them had behind the scenes contacts with any members of the Obama administration.

Totally speculative and inadmissible.
Says lefty the lawyer.
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Old 9th July 2010, 05:47 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by leftysergeant View Post
Before a penny is thrownm down the rat hole trying to get a felony conviction agaisnt an obviously mentally ill person
This mentally ill person was standing in front of a polling place in paramilitary garb threatening people and carrying a nightstick.
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Old 9th July 2010, 06:10 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by leftysergeant View Post
Before a penny is thrownm down the rat hole trying to get a felony conviction agaisnt an obviously mentally ill person ...
Mentally ill people are charged , tried and sentenced to felonies all the time, happened to clients of mine even.

The complaint was filed, redress was given.
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Old 9th July 2010, 06:31 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by BeAChooser View Post
This mentally ill person was standing in front of a polling place in paramilitary garb threatening people and carrying a nightstick.
It's not like he was part of some vast Democratic Party conspiracy to overthrow the Constitution.

It was a case of a nutjob acting out.
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Old 9th July 2010, 08:20 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by BeAChooser View Post
This mentally ill person was standing in front of a polling place in paramilitary garb threatening people and carrying a nightstick.
In fact, he was so threatening, that people are entering and leaving the polling place freely and standing around talking on the phone behind him. And did you see the frightening way they left when the cops asked them to?
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Old 9th July 2010, 09:29 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by BeAChooser View Post
But you didn't respond.
No you didn't respond.
Originally Posted by joobz View Post
This is in no way a logical response to my statement.

Why is equivalent treatment under the law considered "payback"?
Why this case?
Why now?

Actually, don't bother answering. We already know.

Here's your response of why you didn't complain when minutemen were not charged.
Originally Posted by BeAChooser View Post
I'm not here to advocate for your politics, joobz.
partisan politics gussied up as a demand for justice.
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Old 10th July 2010, 01:55 AM   #188
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I'm trying to imagine a world where the prosecutors can't drop charges and every complaint and accusation has to result in a trial.......it would not be pretty.
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Old 10th July 2010, 11:29 AM   #189
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Originally Posted by Unabogie View Post
But hey, Teabaggers aren't known for their intelligence or willingness to think critically, hence they're birthers, goldbugs, etc.
"Poll Finds Tea Party Backers Wealthier and More Educated"

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/15/us...er=rss&emc=rss
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Old 10th July 2010, 12:00 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
In fact, he was so threatening, that people are entering and leaving the polling place freely and standing around talking on the phone behind him. And did you see the frightening way they left when the cops asked them to?
I wonder why the guy tried to conceal the nightstick when the cops arrived on the scene? After all, he said he was "security" for the polling station. Did he think he was doing something illegal?

I wonder how the cops got the idea that these two guys were trying to "stop people from voting?"


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFOKn...eature=related
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Old 10th July 2010, 12:46 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by Cicero View Post
"Poll Finds Tea Party Backers Wealthier and More Educated"

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/15/us...er=rss&emc=rss
that link doesn't contradict Unabogie's statement.
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Old 10th July 2010, 12:51 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by Cicero View Post
I wonder why the guy tried to conceal the nightstick when the cops arrived on the scene? After all, he said he was "security" for the polling station. Did he think he was doing something illegal?
Good point. The guy's a jerk and likely knew he went over the line. It's probably another reason why the indictment on him wasn't dropped.

Of course, he willingly left at the officer's request so....

Originally Posted by Cicero View Post
I wonder how the cops got the idea that these two guys were trying to "stop people from voting?"
People called in. If I call the police to say that my neighbor's are peeing on my lawn, they will show up, regardless if my complaint is true or not.
The Police's job is to maintain peace. The actual conviction and deciding if wrong doing was going on is up to the courts.
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Old 10th July 2010, 12:54 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by joobz View Post
that link doesn't contradict Unabogie's statement.
Joobz, education is great and valuable except when it's the education of a liberal elitist. Then it's nothing but an ivory tower. Or worse. Like Barack Obama. Who's educated, but none of it means anything because the guy can't even speak without reading off a teleprompter. Or a climate scientist, who only uses his status as a "professor" in order to lie about things for monetary gain and can't even write software.

But when a Teabagger went past high school, it's a sign of great intelligence, notwithstanding his penchant for watching Glen Beck (and taking him seriously) , or his belief that his taxes went up and Barack Obama is a secret Muslim Kenyan Socialist Usurper and over-priced gold is a wise investment.
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Old 10th July 2010, 12:59 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by Cicero View Post
"Poll Finds Tea Party Backers Wealthier and More Educated"

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/15/us...er=rss&emc=rss
They had the money to go to college. Maybe even to a prestigious college. That doesn't mean they are bright. I can think of at least a few drooling morons who managed to attend Ivy League universities, even get elected to high government office, who never spent a day in the same room with an objective fact.
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Old 10th July 2010, 01:05 PM   #195
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Originally Posted by joobz View Post
People called in. If I call the police to say that my neighbor's are peeing on my lawn, they will show up, regardless if my complaint is true or not.
The Police's job is to maintain peace. The actual conviction and deciding if wrong doing was going on is up to the courts.
Does nobody else find it odd that there is video of some rightwhacker standing out in front of the polling place shrieking about being intimidated by the big scary black man, but no video of the black man actually intimidating anyone? This was a Repuiblican activist on camera. The were looking for ways to manufacture outrage all year.

It doesn't smell right.
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Old 10th July 2010, 02:34 PM   #196
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Originally Posted by leftysergeant View Post
They had the money to go to college. Maybe even to a prestigious college. That doesn't mean they are bright. I can think of at least a few drooling morons who managed to attend Ivy League universities, even get elected to high government office, who never spent a day in the same room with an objective fact.

Wow! I never thought I'd see you run down POTUS Obama like that. Don't you think you are being overly harsh?
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Old 10th July 2010, 02:35 PM   #197
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Originally Posted by joobz View Post
that link doesn't contradict Unabogie's statement.
No need. Unabogie is self-contradicting.
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Old 10th July 2010, 02:39 PM   #198
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This is so silly. It reminds of of when Rush Limbaugh tried to blame Obama because some black kids beat up a white kid in a school bus.
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1. He'd never do that. 2. Okay but he's not currently doing it. 3. Okay but he's not currently technically doing it. 4. Okay but everyone does it. 5. He's doing it, we can't stop him, no point in complaining about it. 6. We all knew he was going to do it which... makes it okay somehow. 7. It's perfectly fine that's he's doing it.
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Old 10th July 2010, 02:44 PM   #199
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Originally Posted by joobz View Post
Good point. The guy's a jerk and likely knew he went over the line. It's probably another reason why the indictment on him wasn't dropped.

Of course, he willingly left at the officer's request so....
Well, the cops have side arms; he only had a nightstick. Not to mention both of them knew they were being recorded on video. But why would they resist? They already got the exposure they wanted.


Quote:
People called in. If I call the police to say that my neighbor's are peeing on my lawn, they will show up, regardless if my complaint is true or not.
The Police's job is to maintain peace. The actual conviction and deciding if wrong doing was going on is up to the courts.
Of course they will show up, but they wouldn't go over to your neighbor and say, "You can't pee on his lawn" just because you made a complaint. I imagine they would say your neighbor complained about you peeing on his lawn, unless they actually saw your neighbor, member in hand.
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Old 10th July 2010, 02:56 PM   #200
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Originally Posted by Cicero View Post
Well, the cops have side arms; he only had a nightstick. Not to mention both of them knew they were being recorded on video. But why would they resist? They already got the exposure they wanted.
I agree. Publicity is what they wanted it and conservative news outlets are giving it to them.



Originally Posted by Cicero View Post
Of course they will show up, but they wouldn't go over to your neighbor and say, "You can't pee on his lawn" just because you made a complaint. I imagine they would say your neighbor complained about you peeing on his lawn, unless they actually saw your neighbor, member in hand.
But they will ask my neighbor to leave the property as a measure to keep the peace.
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