[Ed] General Israel/Palestine discussion thread - Part 3 - Page 54

Michel H · 4th October 2021, 11:24 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Maybe he's honestly ignorant to the depths of hatred and antisemitism in which Palestinians are indoctrinated.

See post #2119 about alleged antisemitism among Palestinians.

Ziggurat · 4th October 2021, 12:34 PM

Originally Posted by Michel H

See post #2119 about alleged antisemitism among Palestinians.

And the rubes self-identify.

The rampant antisemitism among Palestinians isn't "alleged". It's demonstrated. Public opinion polling shows it regularly. Palestinian school curricula regularly indoctrinate students with it. Palestinian TV shows are filled with it. The fact that a politician will deny it when speaking to the west isn't something you should actually put any weight on.

Quote:

Keeping the settlers in Palestine could be very interesting for the Palestinians, because they (the Palestinians) would benefit from their economic talents (of the settlers), and they would also be good taxpayers.

You are analyzing the situation as if you were in their shoes. But they are not you. They regularly do things which, from a Western perspective, are self-defeating and counter-productive. Why? Because their goals are not the goals that you or I would have in their place.

The economic benefits of Jewish residents are not something Hamas, for example, would care about. The extremists within the Palestinian population have the power, what the majority want doesn't even matter.

Michel H · 4th October 2021, 01:49 PM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

And the rubes self-identify.

The rampant antisemitism among Palestinians isn't "alleged". It's demonstrated. Public opinion polling shows it regularly. Palestinian school curricula regularly indoctrinate students with it. Palestinian TV shows are filled with it. The fact that a politician will deny it when speaking to the west isn't something you should actually put any weight on.

You are analyzing the situation as if you were in their shoes. But they are not you. They regularly do things which, from a Western perspective, are self-defeating and counter-productive. Why? Because their goals are not the goals that you or I would have in their place.

The economic benefits of Jewish residents are not something Hamas, for example, would care about. The extremists within the Palestinian population have the power, what the majority want doesn't even matter.

I think that you are demonizing Hamas. This is a recent text from them (with a nice picture):

Quote:

Head of Hamas Political Bureau Ismail Haniyeh has said that the heroic confrontations with Israeli occupation forces at Beita town emphasize that the Palestinian people cannot accept the existence of the Israeli occupation on their land.

Hundreds of Palestinian people have been protesting at Beita town to restore some plots of lands confiscated recently by Israeli occupation authorities. They also protest the establishment of new colonial settlements in the area.

Israeli occupation forces killed Palestinian civilian Mohammed Ali Khabisa on Friday, which led to fierce confrontations with unarmed Palestinian protesters at the town.

In a phone call with the martyr’s father, the Hamas chief said that the movement sent its regards to the protesters at Beita town and wished a speedy recovery for the wounded.

Haniyeh also extended his condolences to Khabisa’s family.

The killing of Khabisa indicated the Palestinian people are united behind the option of resistance, said the Hamas top official.

Confirming that the resistance will remain the protective shield for the Palestinian people, Haniyeh also pointed out that Hamas is keen on preserving this unity in the face of the Israeli occupation forces.

(https://hamas.ps/en/post/3633/Hamas-...-at-Beita-town).

Note how polite it is.

webfusion · 4th October 2021, 02:16 PM

MichelH, the antisemitism is so deep, so well-rooted, that I have no faith whatsoever that Hamas can go in any other direction. It's ingrained in their core raison-d'etre.

Meanwhile, at the UNHRC, when it's pointed out that antisemitism is rampant, the President of United Nations Human Rights Council (UNHRC) Nazhat Shameem Khan cut off UN Watch NGO during a UNHRC session on Friday after the NGO began quoting antisemitic posts by UN Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) teachers
https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/un...eachers-680891

You keep defending the indefensible. and it's quite a sight to see, from Belgium, is it?

Michel H · 4th October 2021, 02:39 PM

Originally Posted by webfusion

MichelH, the antisemitism is so deep, so well-rooted, that I have no faith whatsoever that Hamas can go in any other direction. It's ingrained in their core raison-d'etre.

Meanwhile, at the UNHRC, when it's pointed out that antisemitism is rampant, the President of United Nations Human Rights Council (UNHRC) Nazhat Shameem Khan cut off UN Watch NGO during a UNHRC session on Friday after the NGO began quoting antisemitic posts by UN Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) teachers
https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/un...eachers-680891

You keep defending the indefensible. and it's quite a sight to see, from Belgium, is it?

Belgium is certainly not an antisemitic country, and I am not antisemitic myself.

In fact, I don't like any religion, and Islam is the (monotheistic) religion that I dislike the most, followed by Judaism and Christianity.

When I was a young student, I had a good friend who was half-Jew. One of his friends (whom I knew too) went to Israel to do his military service, and my friend's sister joked that he was "a real Jew".

I don't think I have expressed extreme views. I believe in the right of Israelis to live in peace within their legal borders, not to make conquests and to humiliate people.

One of the possible consequences of unethical behavior by the Israel - U.S. axis could be an unethical behavior by China, they could decide to conquer (or try to conquer) Taiwan, and take control of the local computer chip makers, whose sales to communist China has been banned by Trump (and this doesn't seem to have been changed by Biden). This could even lead to a n. war, with millions of deaths.

Ziggurat · 4th October 2021, 02:51 PM

Originally Posted by Michel H

I think that you are demonizing Hamas. This is a recent text from them (with a nice picture):

You really are a sucker for propaganda.

Michel H · 4th October 2021, 03:10 PM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

You really are a sucker for propaganda.

Did you even bother to read the statement by Hamas I posted above?

Is there any part in particular you disagree with, from a Palestinian perspective?

Or do you (like webfusion perhaps) just want to close your eyes when you see anything by Hamas?

Ziggurat · 4th October 2021, 08:38 PM

Originally Posted by Michel H

Did you even bother to read the statement by Hamas I posted above?

Is there any part in particular you disagree with, from a Palestinian perspective?

Or do you (like webfusion perhaps) just want to close your eyes when you see anything by Hamas?

You are consuming the information about Hamas that Hamas wants you to see. You are ignoring the information about what they actually do.. I’m not the one with his eyes closed. Blindly believing propaganda doesn’t make one open minded, it makes one a fool.

Allen773 · 4th October 2021, 09:40 PM

The whole point of denying the Palestinians a state is to make any remote act of self-defense or resistance to violence and brutalization at the hands of Israeli military and security forces (along with the fanatics in the settler community, of course) illegitimate. It also gives the Israelis a neat excuse for collective punishment. All Palestinians are civilians because they have no real government, let alone a military.

State actors can be violent, nonstate actors can't be - terrorists or "unlawful enemy combatants," in other words. So giving the Palestinians the power to have a real state would be in opposition to Israel's policy of permanent subjugation of the Palestinians.

Allen773 · 4th October 2021, 09:41 PM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Maybe he knows but is indifferent to such an outcome. Maybe he figures that at least the Palestinians will settle down once they've driven off/killed all the Jews, and that's the important part. A small price to pay for peace, and after all, he's not paying it.

Or maybe he doesn't know. Maybe he's honestly ignorant to the depths of hatred and antisemitism in which Palestinians are indoctrinated. Maybe he really thinks that the whole world can sing Kumbaya. Maybe he's the type who would still be singing Stalin's praises as the purge lined him up against the wall, convinced to the end that it was all a mistake and surely it would get sorted out.

I honestly can't tell what he knows, and I'm not even sure which possibility is worse.

Do you not think Israelis aren't also indoctrinated with hatred of Arabs and Muslims?

webfusion · 5th October 2021, 05:05 AM

Originally Posted by Allen773

Do you not think Israelis aren't also indoctrinated with hatred of Arabs and Muslims?

Indoctrinated? As a matter of policy? Or as a function of the Government/Educational institutions? Or as a society-wide phenonema? No, to all three.

Israelis are quite tolerant and even friendly, regarding our neighbors, be they Egyptians, Jordanians, Lebanese, or even Syrians (a nation with which we are still officially at war).
We are forging ties and cooperation with Gulf Arabs, and I see no hatred evinced towards them. When Saudi Arabia gets into that mix, Israelis will provide them with all due consideration and respect.

No, Allen773, the 'question' you posed (it's kinda in the form of a statement, disguised as a question) perhaps refers to Israelis who grafitti "Death to Arabs" on walls of Hebron and elsewhere across the landscape? Is that evidence of Israelis being indoctrinated to hate Arabs? I think not. It is rather, it appears, as evidence of some Israelis who are sick and tired of terror attacks emanating from the Arab population against their Jewish neighbors.

When we go to war against Gazan Arabs, it is not a result of indoctrination or animosity, or training or propaganda to cause us to "hate" them.
It is based soley on military considerations, to protect ourselves from assaults and clear and present dangers.

webfusion · 5th October 2021, 05:39 AM

MichelH: inter-alia -- (Israel should remain) within their legal borders

Israel does remain within our legal borders.
There are still some very minor disputed salients with Lebanon (Shebaa Farms and the village of Ghajar) after the total withdrawal per UN 1701 and there's been a boundary survey meticulously conducted regarding the Blue Line.
United Nations forces continue to be present in Lebanon to supervise. (UNIFIL)

The boundary with Syria is clearly designated on maps while UN forces patrol and maintain the separation of two enemy armies. (UNDOF)

The International Border between Israel and Egypt is quite well-known; in fact, Israel went through binding arbitration process regarding a salient at Taba. The result of that was Israel relinquished a very profitable and desirable location for tourists -- the Hilton Resort & Casino.
However, there are still International forces in Sinai, under the terms of the two nations' Protocol to the Treaty of Peace. (MFO)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multin..._and_Observers

With Jordan, our border is very specific. Very.
We maintain International crossings for both foot traffic and vehicular movement.

OK, that covers North, East, South. West is pretty obvious, the waters of the Mediterranean; and even there, we are in ongoing (third-party mediated, not direct) negotiations regarding the maritime boundaries out to sea.

Gaza? A border fence exists. Everyone knows where it is.

That leaves the so-called West Bank. The operative documents regarding those lands remain the 1949 Rhodes Armistice Agreements.
No other legal paperwork exists. (UN Resolutions nothwithstanding).

webfusion · 5th October 2021, 05:54 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

You really are a sucker for propaganda.

Hanan Ashrawi is one of the best at her job --- she has been the public face of Palestinian propaganda for decades (since the Madrid Peace Conference of 1991).
She is active in such groups as "Palestinian Initiative for the Promotion of Global Dialogue and Democracy" and "National Coalition for Accountability and Integrity" (nice-sounding names, right?)

Ms. Ashrawi is the recipient of numerous awards from all over the world, including the distinguished French decoration, “d'Officier de l'Ordre National de la Légion d'Honneur” in 2006; the 2005 Mahatma Gandhi International Award for Peace and Reconciliation; the 2003 Sydney Peace Prize; the 2002 Olof Palme Prize; the 1999 International Women of Hope “Bread and Roses”; the Defender of Democracy Award – Parliamentarians for Global Action; the 50 Women of the Century; the 1996 Jane Addams International Women’s Leadership Award; the Pearl S. Buck Foundation Women’s Award; the 1994 Pio Manzu Gold Medal Peace Award; and the 1992 Marissa Bellisario International Peace Award.

Here we are, 2022 headed towards us like a freight train, and Ashrawi remains an apologist for Islamic terror against the Jewish State. IMO.

Ziggurat · 5th October 2021, 06:41 AM

Originally Posted by Allen773

Do you not think Israelis aren't also indoctrinated with hatred of Arabs and Muslims?

Israeli children are not regularly taught in school that it's a good thing to kill Palestinians. So no, there really isn't a symmetry to the situation, at all.

webfusion · 5th October 2021, 07:06 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Israeli children are not regularly taught in school that it's a good thing to kill Palestinians. So no, there really isn't a symmetry to the situation, at all.

I found it fascinating (to put it charitably) that Allen773 posed such a question, without even bothering to produce any fair reason to suppose such a thing as he insinuated.

https://www.israelnationalnews.com/N...ws.aspx/314465
"Palestine" territory is mostly described as from the “river to the sea” -- without Israel existing.
A tenth grade textbook presents Jihad “for the liberation of Palestine” as a “private obligation for every Muslim” ... etc. etc. etc.

Ziggurat · 5th October 2021, 07:19 AM

Originally Posted by webfusion

I found it fascinating (to put it charitably) that Allen773 posed such a question, without even bothering to produce any fair reason to suppose such a thing as he insinuated.

In certain circles, these things are just assumed to be true, no evidence needed.

Yet they will swear they aren't antisemitic. It's just "legitimate" criticism of Israel.

Allen773 · 5th October 2021, 08:38 AM

Originally Posted by webfusion

Indoctrinated? As a matter of policy? Or as a function of the Government/Educational institutions? Or as a society-wide phenonema? No, to all three.

Israelis are quite tolerant and even friendly, regarding our neighbors, be they Egyptians, Jordanians, Lebanese, or even Syrians (a nation with which we are still officially at war).
We are forging ties and cooperation with Gulf Arabs, and I see no hatred evinced towards them. When Saudi Arabia gets into that mix, Israelis will provide them with all due consideration and respect.

No, Allen773, the 'question' you posed (it's kinda in the form of a statement, disguised as a question) perhaps refers to Israelis who grafitti "Death to Arabs" on walls of Hebron and elsewhere across the landscape? Is that evidence of Israelis being indoctrinated to hate Arabs? I think not. It is rather, it appears, as evidence of some Israelis who are sick and tired of terror attacks emanating from the Arab population against their Jewish neighbors.

When we go to war against Gazan Arabs, it is not a result of indoctrination or animosity, or training or propaganda to cause us to "hate" them.
It is based soley on military considerations, to protect ourselves from assaults and clear and present dangers.

Those repressive Arab dictatorships =/= Arabs in general, or Palestinians in particular. Try again.

Allen773 · 5th October 2021, 08:38 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

In certain circles, these things are just assumed to be true, no evidence needed.

Yet they will swear they aren't antisemitic. It's just "legitimate" criticism of Israel.

What is your opinion of George Soros and his work?

Allen773 · 5th October 2021, 08:45 AM

The Islamophobia industry

Quote:

The prevalence of Islamophobia in liberal discourse is part of the mainstreaming of anti-Muslim, anti-refugee and anti-migrant racism that many believe to be the territory of the far right.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/can...obia-industry/

Donors to the Islamophobia network

Quote:

A small group of conservative foundations and wealthy donors are the lifeblood of the Islamophobia network in America. They provide critical funding to a clutch of right-wing think tanks and misinformation experts who peddle hate and fear of Muslims and Islam—in the form of books, reports, websites, blogs, and carefully crafted talking points, which dedicated anti-Islam grassroots organizations and some right-wing religious groups use as propaganda for their constituency. These foundations and wealthy donors also provide direct funding to anti-Islam grass- roots groups.

https://cdn.americanprogress.org/wp-...773.1633448436

Allen773 · 5th October 2021, 08:48 AM

Right-wingers have some nerve in pretending to care about anti-Semitism. The political Right have always been the most vicious anti-Semites — with the right-wing Germans of the 1930s-1945 and their collaborators across Europe and in the US being the most infamous and murderous, of course.

webfusion · 5th October 2021, 08:53 AM

Allen773, you specifically said "indoctrinated with hatred of Arabs and Muslims?"

If you have evidence, produce it.

Ziggurat · 5th October 2021, 11:03 AM

Originally Posted by Allen773

Right-wingers have some nerve in pretending to care about anti-Semitism. The political Right have always been the most vicious anti-Semites — with the right-wing Germans of the 1930s-1945 and their collaborators across Europe and in the US being the most infamous and murderous, of course.

Perhaps that's the case in Europe today, and that may have been true in the US decades ago. But in the US today, antisemitism is primarily found on the left. Anyone who doesn't recognize that is either clueless or in denial.

Aridas · 5th October 2021, 12:02 PM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Perhaps that's the case in Europe today, and that may have been true in the US decades ago. But in the US today, antisemitism is primarily found on the left. Anyone who doesn't recognize that is either clueless or in denial.

That's a more complicated issue than you'd like to believe, honestly.

For example, deadly terrorist attacks with notable political influence on Jews in the US, for example, have been almost completely done by right-wingers, at last check. White supremacists, in particular, have a long history of antisemitism and violence - and the Republican Party is both overwhelmingly their party of choice and they hold significant power and influence in it. Similarly, the antisemitic CT scene has been largely claimed by the right-wing. Going further, support for Israel in the US by the right is underpinned by some less pleasant drivers, at last check, not least being religion-related apocalypse courting.

There's certainly anti-Israel sentiment (which is really not the same thing as antisemitism - hard right governments are generally not that popular with the left, after all) on the left and the left is much more welcoming towards Muslims in general, with a side of compassion for the decidedly unpleasant situation that the Palestinians are in. It's also true that it looks like left-wing antisemitism is on the rise in direct relation to growing sympathy for the situation that Palestinians are in.

Personally, my assessment is that the balance still weighs notably more heavily toward the right's antisemitism being much more dangerous all around, though it doesn't outweigh the antisemitism on the left as much as it used to outweigh it. I'd also add that it's never been solely a right or left thing and that the right's long been very eager to point fingers at the left as they try to mislead.

Michel H · 5th October 2021, 12:05 PM

Originally Posted by webfusion

...
That leaves the so-called West Bank. The operative documents regarding those lands remain the 1949 Rhodes Armistice Agreements.
No other legal paperwork exists. (UN Resolutions nothwithstanding).

You seem to have forgotten East Jerusalem (and also the occupied Golan Heights).

What exactly do you mean with your sentence:

Quote:

No other legal paperwork exists. (UN Resolutions nothwithstanding)

, webfusion?

That (in your opinion) all U.N. Security Council resolutions pertaining to the Israel-Palestine conflict have no legal value?

Michel H · 5th October 2021, 12:33 PM

Originally Posted by webfusion

I found it fascinating (to put it charitably) that Allen773 posed such a question, without even bothering to produce any fair reason to suppose such a thing as he insinuated.

https://www.israelnationalnews.com/N...ws.aspx/314465
"Palestine" territory is mostly described as from the “river to the sea” -- without Israel existing.
A tenth grade textbook presents Jihad “for the liberation of Palestine” as a “private obligation for every Muslim” ... etc. etc. etc.

I also find the lack of objectivity and honesty in Palestinian textbooks for children concerning.

However, this is perhaps a reaction to Israeli (and U.S.) persecutions. Perhaps they feel it's all they have got.

Many will probably learn the truth once they gain access to the Internet.

Ziggurat · 5th October 2021, 12:41 PM

Originally Posted by Michel H

I also find the lack of objectivity and honesty in Palestinian textbooks for children concerning.

However, this is perhaps a reaction to Israeli (and U.S.) persecutions. Perhaps they feel it's all they have got.

Many will probably learn the truth once they gain access to the Internet.

You're making excuses for terrorism, and the glorification of terrorism. Stop stanning for suicide bombers. It's pathetic.

You're also naive about what exposure to the internet will do. There is hardly a shortage of antisemitic content on the internet, particularly in Arabic.

Michel H · 5th October 2021, 12:59 PM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

You're making excuses for terrorism, and the glorification of terrorism. Stop stanning for suicide bombers. It's pathetic.

You're also naive about what exposure to the internet will do. There is hardly a shortage of antisemitic content on the internet, particularly in Arabic.

People looking for antisemitic content on the Internet will probably be able to find some, but people really looking for the truth will probably be able to find it too (wikipedia, BBC in Arabic and so on). Difficult to imagine that Palestinian adults don't know that Israel does exist as a country.

I also think that there may be a right to resistance for invaded and humiliated people (even by citizens). I see no reason why U.S. crime and stupidity should rule the world.

webfusion · 5th October 2021, 12:59 PM

MichelH, The State of Israel has lawfully extended our sovereignty to the Golan Heights (December 14, 1981) and unified the entire Jerusalem municipality.

In any case, Palestinians have no interests in the mountains of the Golan, that is between the Syrians and Israel, should Syria ever decide to approach that subject with Israel directly in the context of a peace treaty, but don't hold yer breath. Meanwhile, the border in that district is well-known to all concerned. It is clearly marked and UNDOF patrols it from the Syrian side.

As for the Jerusalem municipal area, I cannot envision any power on earth making any headway in re-dividing our capital city. The best hope for Palestinians is AbuDis as their capital (where a Parliament building sits, uncompleted) and just call it "AlQuds"

The Temple Mount and environs is non-negotiable, no matter what the UN Security Council proclaims. Do you think the UN Security Council is going to send in troops to dislodge this 37-acre public park from Israeli control? Yes? No? Maybe?

Beyond that, can you point to any UNSC Resolution which defines the legal borders of this "State of Palestine" ? I'm curious where you saw that.

webfusion · 5th October 2021, 01:04 PM

MichelH, as you say that "Difficult to imagine that Palestinian adults don't know that Israel does exist as a country." you should have to explain what HAMAS means when they proclaim (in their Sacred Covenant)
"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it"
https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp

Michel H · 5th October 2021, 01:27 PM

Originally Posted by webfusion

MichelH, as you say that "Difficult to imagine that Palestinian adults don't know that Israel does exist as a country." you should have to explain what HAMAS means when they proclaim (in their Sacred Covenant)
"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it"
https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp

I think it's actually up to them to explain it, since it is them who wrote it.

They may have done it to some extent already:

Quote:

Sep 11, 2018
News
Hamas expressed its natural intellectual development over the past 30 years in the Document of Principles and Policies, former Chief of Hamas Political Bureau Khalid Meshal stated.
...
Meshal confirmed that Hamas had not made any concessions regarding the interim Palestinian state on pre-1967 boundaries, but it put forward this proposal to pave the ground for national consensus, noting that the movement had adopted the option of resistance to restore the Palestinian lands and rights.

(https://hamas.ps/en/post/1532/Hamas-...of-development).

I don't rule out a situation where it would be Hamas (not Israel) which should actually be destroyed.

Ziggurat · 5th October 2021, 02:11 PM

Originally Posted by Michel H

People looking for antisemitic content on the Internet will probably be able to find some, but people really looking for the truth will probably be able to find it too (wikipedia, BBC in Arabic and so on). Difficult to imagine that Palestinian adults don't know that Israel does exist as a country.

I also think that there may be a right to resistance for invaded and humiliated people (even by citizens). I see no reason why U.S. crime and stupidity should rule the world.

You went full retard. Never go full retard.

digger · 5th October 2021, 02:37 PM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Israeli children are not regularly taught in school that it's a good thing to kill Palestinians. So no, there really isn't a symmetry to the situation, at all.

Israel occupation of Palestine kills many Palestinians. The justifications for this occupation and the deaths that it causes are taught to Israeli school children. Any who do not strenuously object serve in that army that kills Palestinians regularly as a right of passage.

Can you demonstrate that Palestinian children are taught to kill Israelis, or is that a rumor you heard somewhere?

Ziggurat · 5th October 2021, 02:57 PM

Originally Posted by digger

Israel occupation of Palestine kills many Palestinians.

Not really.

Quote:

Can you demonstrate that Palestinian children are taught to kill Israelis, or is that a rumor you heard somewhere?

Information about this is widely available and easy to find. It's not rumor. For example:

https://www.impact-se.org/wp-content...es_2019-20.pdf

And we haven't even touched on the whole blood libel thing.

Cosmic Yak · 6th October 2021, 07:49 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Perhaps that's the case in Europe today, and that may have been true in the US decades ago. But in the US today, antisemitism is primarily found on the left. Anyone who doesn't recognize that is either clueless or in denial.

In the UK, antisemitism is largely a left-wing issue- look at the Labour Party under Corbyn. The right is more anti-Muslim and anti-immigrant.

Allen773 · 6th October 2021, 10:50 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Perhaps that's the case in Europe today, and that may have been true in the US decades ago. But in the US today, antisemitism is primarily found on the left. Anyone who doesn't recognize that is either clueless or in denial.

“Jews will not replace us.”

Those weren’t left-wingers marching with tiki torches. And leftists aren’t the ones obsessed with George Soros.

Ziggurat · 6th October 2021, 11:59 AM

Originally Posted by Allen773

“Jews will not replace us.”

Those weren’t left-wingers marching with tiki torches. And leftists aren’t the ones obsessed with George Soros.

You seem a lot more obsessed with Soros than I am. And yeah, the left's antisemitism manifests differently than the right's, no surprise. But it's pretty damn common. Perhaps you didn't notice during the George Floyd protests, but there were a whole bunch of claims floating around about how part of the problem with police brutality was that cops were being trained by Israelis. The whole BDS movement is also an animal of the left, not the right. It's leftists on college campuses who harass Jewish groups and Jews who run for student council, not conservatives. And have you forgotten Al Sharpton and his role in Crown Heights riot?

Yak mentioned Corbyn and the Labor party. The same dynamic is at play, though to a lesser degree (so far), among Democrats.

dudalb · 6th October 2021, 12:54 PM

It would be nice if we had less total dogmatism/preaching the party line on this issue from both sides.

dudalb · 6th October 2021, 12:54 PM

Originally Posted by digger

Israel occupation of Palestine kills many Palestinians. The justifications for this occupation and the deaths that it causes are taught to Israeli school children. Any who do not strenuously object serve in that army that kills Palestinians regularly as a right of passage.

Can you demonstrate that Palestinian children are taught to kill Israelis, or is that a rumor you heard somewhere?

Like Hamas controlled schools don't promote hatred of Israelis.....

theprestige · 6th October 2021, 01:11 PM

Originally Posted by Allen773

“Jews will not replace us.”

Those weren’t left-wingers marching with tiki torches. And leftists aren’t the ones obsessed with George Soros.

The conservative/Republican policy has been consistently pro-Israel for decades. Don't let the ranting of a tiny fringe extremist faction distract you from that fact.

You might be better off looking for mainstream Democrat support for Israel.

Allen773 · 6th October 2021, 02:41 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

The conservative/Republican policy has been consistently pro-Israel for decades. Don't let the ranting of a tiny fringe extremist faction distract you from that fact.

You might be better off looking for mainstream Democrat support for Israel.

Pro-Israel =/= pro-Jew.

It's clear that right-wingers fervently believe that Jews' natural home is one small nation-state in the Middle East. Thus, they don't believe Jews belong in the US or anywhere else other than Israel. This is consistent with the very mainstream (within the Republican Party) White Evangelical view of Israel as the place where the End Times will happen and the Jews will be either converted or suffer eternal damnation. From this perspective, the Palestinians are merely in the way.

Again, I really resent the idea that being pro-Israel is the same as being pro-Jewish. By this standard, all American, European, or any other Jewish people anywhere are just agents of a foreign power, ie. Israel. Dual loyalties...

4th October 2021, 12:34 PM	#2122
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 51,713	Originally Posted by Michel H See post #2119 about alleged antisemitism among Palestinians. And the rubes self-identify. The rampant antisemitism among Palestinians isn't "alleged". It's demonstrated. Public opinion polling shows it regularly. Palestinian school curricula regularly indoctrinate students with it. Palestinian TV shows are filled with it. The fact that a politician will deny it when speaking to the west isn't something you should actually put any weight on. Quote: Keeping the settlers in Palestine could be very interesting for the Palestinians, because they (the Palestinians) would benefit from their economic talents (of the settlers), and they would also be good taxpayers. You are analyzing the situation as if you were in their shoes. But they are not you. They regularly do things which, from a Western perspective, are self-defeating and counter-productive. Why? Because their goals are not the goals that you or I would have in their place. The economic benefits of Jewish residents are not something Hamas, for example, would care about. The extremists within the Palestinian population have the power, what the majority want doesn't even matter.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

4th October 2021, 02:16 PM	#2124
webfusion Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 7,009	MichelH, the antisemitism is so deep, so well-rooted, that I have no faith whatsoever that Hamas can go in any other direction. It's ingrained in their core raison-d'etre. Meanwhile, at the UNHRC, when it's pointed out that antisemitism is rampant, the President of United Nations Human Rights Council (UNHRC) Nazhat Shameem Khan cut off UN Watch NGO during a UNHRC session on Friday after the NGO began quoting antisemitic posts by UN Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) teachers https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/un...eachers-680891 You keep defending the indefensible. and it's quite a sight to see, from Belgium, is it?
webfusion Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 7,009

4th October 2021, 02:51 PM	#2126
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 51,713	Originally Posted by Michel H I think that you are demonizing Hamas. This is a recent text from them (with a nice picture): You really are a sucker for propaganda.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

4th October 2021, 08:38 PM	#2128
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 51,713	Originally Posted by Michel H Did you even bother to read the statement by Hamas I posted above? Is there any part in particular you disagree with, from a Palestinian perspective? Or do you (like webfusion perhaps) just want to close your eyes when you see anything by Hamas? You are consuming the information about Hamas that Hamas wants you to see. You are ignoring the information about what they actually do.. I’m not the one with his eyes closed. Blindly believing propaganda doesn’t make one open minded, it makes one a fool.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

5th October 2021, 05:05 AM	#2131
webfusion Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 7,009	Originally Posted by Allen773 Do you not think Israelis aren't also indoctrinated with hatred of Arabs and Muslims? Indoctrinated? As a matter of policy? Or as a function of the Government/Educational institutions? Or as a society-wide phenonema? No, to all three. Israelis are quite tolerant and even friendly, regarding our neighbors, be they Egyptians, Jordanians, Lebanese, or even Syrians (a nation with which we are still officially at war). We are forging ties and cooperation with Gulf Arabs, and I see no hatred evinced towards them. When Saudi Arabia gets into that mix, Israelis will provide them with all due consideration and respect. No, Allen773, the 'question' you posed (it's kinda in the form of a statement, disguised as a question) perhaps refers to Israelis who grafitti "Death to Arabs" on walls of Hebron and elsewhere across the landscape? Is that evidence of Israelis being indoctrinated to hate Arabs? I think not. It is rather, it appears, as evidence of some Israelis who are sick and tired of terror attacks emanating from the Arab population against their Jewish neighbors. When we go to war against Gazan Arabs, it is not a result of indoctrination or animosity, or training or propaganda to cause us to "hate" them. It is based soley on military considerations, to protect ourselves from assaults and clear and present dangers.
webfusion Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 7,009

4th October 2021, 11:24 AM	#2121
Michel H Master Poster Join Date: May 2012 Location: Belgium Posts: 2,815	Originally Posted by Ziggurat Maybe he's honestly ignorant to the depths of hatred and antisemitism in which Palestinians are indoctrinated. See post #2119 about alleged antisemitism among Palestinians.

4th October 2021, 01:49 PM	#2123
Michel H Master Poster Join Date: May 2012 Location: Belgium Posts: 2,815	Originally Posted by Ziggurat And the rubes self-identify. The rampant antisemitism among Palestinians isn't "alleged". It's demonstrated. Public opinion polling shows it regularly. Palestinian school curricula regularly indoctrinate students with it. Palestinian TV shows are filled with it. The fact that a politician will deny it when speaking to the west isn't something you should actually put any weight on. You are analyzing the situation as if you were in their shoes. But they are not you. They regularly do things which, from a Western perspective, are self-defeating and counter-productive. Why? Because their goals are not the goals that you or I would have in their place. The economic benefits of Jewish residents are not something Hamas, for example, would care about. The extremists within the Palestinian population have the power, what the majority want doesn't even matter. I think that you are demonizing Hamas. This is a recent text from them (with a nice picture): Quote: Head of Hamas Political Bureau Ismail Haniyeh has said that the heroic confrontations with Israeli occupation forces at Beita town emphasize that the Palestinian people cannot accept the existence of the Israeli occupation on their land. Hundreds of Palestinian people have been protesting at Beita town to restore some plots of lands confiscated recently by Israeli occupation authorities. They also protest the establishment of new colonial settlements in the area. Israeli occupation forces killed Palestinian civilian Mohammed Ali Khabisa on Friday, which led to fierce confrontations with unarmed Palestinian protesters at the town. In a phone call with the martyr’s father, the Hamas chief said that the movement sent its regards to the protesters at Beita town and wished a speedy recovery for the wounded. Haniyeh also extended his condolences to Khabisa’s family. The killing of Khabisa indicated the Palestinian people are united behind the option of resistance, said the Hamas top official. Confirming that the resistance will remain the protective shield for the Palestinian people, Haniyeh also pointed out that Hamas is keen on preserving this unity in the face of the Israeli occupation forces. (https://hamas.ps/en/post/3633/Hamas-...-at-Beita-town). Note how polite it is.

4th October 2021, 02:39 PM	#2125
Michel H Master Poster Join Date: May 2012 Location: Belgium Posts: 2,815	Originally Posted by webfusion MichelH, the antisemitism is so deep, so well-rooted, that I have no faith whatsoever that Hamas can go in any other direction. It's ingrained in their core raison-d'etre. Meanwhile, at the UNHRC, when it's pointed out that antisemitism is rampant, the President of United Nations Human Rights Council (UNHRC) Nazhat Shameem Khan cut off UN Watch NGO during a UNHRC session on Friday after the NGO began quoting antisemitic posts by UN Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) teachers https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/un...eachers-680891 You keep defending the indefensible. and it's quite a sight to see, from Belgium, is it? Belgium is certainly not an antisemitic country, and I am not antisemitic myself. In fact, I don't like any religion, and Islam is the (monotheistic) religion that I dislike the most, followed by Judaism and Christianity. When I was a young student, I had a good friend who was half-Jew. One of his friends (whom I knew too) went to Israel to do his military service, and my friend's sister joked that he was "a real Jew". I don't think I have expressed extreme views. I believe in the right of Israelis to live in peace within their legal borders, not to make conquests and to humiliate people. One of the possible consequences of unethical behavior by the Israel - U.S. axis could be an unethical behavior by China, they could decide to conquer (or try to conquer) Taiwan, and take control of the local computer chip makers, whose sales to communist China has been banned by Trump (and this doesn't seem to have been changed by Biden). This could even lead to a n. war, with millions of deaths.

4th October 2021, 03:10 PM	#2127
Michel H Master Poster Join Date: May 2012 Location: Belgium Posts: 2,815	Originally Posted by Ziggurat You really are a sucker for propaganda. Did you even bother to read the statement by Hamas I posted above? Is there any part in particular you disagree with, from a Palestinian perspective? Or do you (like webfusion perhaps) just want to close your eyes when you see anything by Hamas?

4th October 2021, 09:40 PM	#2129
Allen773 Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Cali Four Neea Posts: 1,567	The whole point of denying the Palestinians a state is to make any remote act of self-defense or resistance to violence and brutalization at the hands of Israeli military and security forces (along with the fanatics in the settler community, of course) illegitimate. It also gives the Israelis a neat excuse for collective punishment. All Palestinians are civilians because they have no real government, let alone a military. State actors can be violent, nonstate actors can't be - terrorists or "unlawful enemy combatants," in other words. So giving the Palestinians the power to have a real state would be in opposition to Israel's policy of permanent subjugation of the Palestinians.

4th October 2021, 09:41 PM	#2130
Allen773 Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Cali Four Neea Posts: 1,567	Originally Posted by Ziggurat Maybe he knows but is indifferent to such an outcome. Maybe he figures that at least the Palestinians will settle down once they've driven off/killed all the Jews, and that's the important part. A small price to pay for peace, and after all, he's not paying it. Or maybe he doesn't know. Maybe he's honestly ignorant to the depths of hatred and antisemitism in which Palestinians are indoctrinated. Maybe he really thinks that the whole world can sing Kumbaya. Maybe he's the type who would still be singing Stalin's praises as the purge lined him up against the wall, convinced to the end that it was all a mistake and surely it would get sorted out. I honestly can't tell what he knows, and I'm not even sure which possibility is worse. Do you not think Israelis aren't also indoctrinated with hatred of Arabs and Muslims?

5th October 2021, 05:39 AM	#2132
webfusion Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 7,009	Borders in all directions MichelH: inter-alia -- (Israel should remain) within their legal borders Israel does remain within our legal borders. There are still some very minor disputed salients with Lebanon (Shebaa Farms and the village of Ghajar) after the total withdrawal per UN 1701 and there's been a boundary survey meticulously conducted regarding the Blue Line. United Nations forces continue to be present in Lebanon to supervise. (UNIFIL) The boundary with Syria is clearly designated on maps while UN forces patrol and maintain the separation of two enemy armies. (UNDOF) The International Border between Israel and Egypt is quite well-known; in fact, Israel went through binding arbitration process regarding a salient at Taba. The result of that was Israel relinquished a very profitable and desirable location for tourists -- the Hilton Resort & Casino. However, there are still International forces in Sinai, under the terms of the two nations' Protocol to the Treaty of Peace. (MFO) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multin..._and_Observers With Jordan, our border is very specific. Very. We maintain International crossings for both foot traffic and vehicular movement. OK, that covers North, East, South. West is pretty obvious, the waters of the Mediterranean; and even there, we are in ongoing (third-party mediated, not direct) negotiations regarding the maritime boundaries out to sea. Gaza? A border fence exists. Everyone knows where it is. That leaves the so-called West Bank. The operative documents regarding those lands remain the 1949 Rhodes Armistice Agreements. No other legal paperwork exists. (UN Resolutions nothwithstanding).
webfusion Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 7,009	Last edited by webfusion; 5th October 2021 at 05:40 AM.

5th October 2021, 05:54 AM	#2133
webfusion Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 7,009	Originally Posted by Ziggurat You really are a sucker for propaganda. Hanan Ashrawi is one of the best at her job --- she has been the public face of Palestinian propaganda for decades (since the Madrid Peace Conference of 1991). She is active in such groups as "Palestinian Initiative for the Promotion of Global Dialogue and Democracy" and "National Coalition for Accountability and Integrity" (nice-sounding names, right?) Ms. Ashrawi is the recipient of numerous awards from all over the world, including the distinguished French decoration, “d'Officier de l'Ordre National de la Légion d'Honneur” in 2006; the 2005 Mahatma Gandhi International Award for Peace and Reconciliation; the 2003 Sydney Peace Prize; the 2002 Olof Palme Prize; the 1999 International Women of Hope “Bread and Roses”; the Defender of Democracy Award – Parliamentarians for Global Action; the 50 Women of the Century; the 1996 Jane Addams International Women’s Leadership Award; the Pearl S. Buck Foundation Women’s Award; the 1994 Pio Manzu Gold Medal Peace Award; and the 1992 Marissa Bellisario International Peace Award. Here we are, 2022 headed towards us like a freight train, and Ashrawi remains an apologist for Islamic terror against the Jewish State. IMO.
webfusion Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 7,009

5th October 2021, 06:41 AM	#2134
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 51,713	Originally Posted by Allen773 Do you not think Israelis aren't also indoctrinated with hatred of Arabs and Muslims? Israeli children are not regularly taught in school that it's a good thing to kill Palestinians. So no, there really isn't a symmetry to the situation, at all.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

5th October 2021, 07:06 AM	#2135
webfusion Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 7,009	Originally Posted by Ziggurat Israeli children are not regularly taught in school that it's a good thing to kill Palestinians. So no, there really isn't a symmetry to the situation, at all. I found it fascinating (to put it charitably) that Allen773 posed such a question, without even bothering to produce any fair reason to suppose such a thing as he insinuated. https://www.israelnationalnews.com/N...ws.aspx/314465 "Palestine" territory is mostly described as from the “river to the sea” -- without Israel existing. A tenth grade textbook presents Jihad “for the liberation of Palestine” as a “private obligation for every Muslim” ... etc. etc. etc.
webfusion Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 7,009

5th October 2021, 07:19 AM	#2136
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 51,713	Originally Posted by webfusion I found it fascinating (to put it charitably) that Allen773 posed such a question, without even bothering to produce any fair reason to suppose such a thing as he insinuated. In certain circles, these things are just assumed to be true, no evidence needed. Yet they will swear they aren't antisemitic. It's just "legitimate" criticism of Israel.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

5th October 2021, 08:38 AM	#2137
Allen773 Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Cali Four Neea Posts: 1,567	Originally Posted by webfusion Indoctrinated? As a matter of policy? Or as a function of the Government/Educational institutions? Or as a society-wide phenonema? No, to all three. Israelis are quite tolerant and even friendly, regarding our neighbors, be they Egyptians, Jordanians, Lebanese, or even Syrians (a nation with which we are still officially at war). We are forging ties and cooperation with Gulf Arabs, and I see no hatred evinced towards them. When Saudi Arabia gets into that mix, Israelis will provide them with all due consideration and respect. No, Allen773, the 'question' you posed (it's kinda in the form of a statement, disguised as a question) perhaps refers to Israelis who grafitti "Death to Arabs" on walls of Hebron and elsewhere across the landscape? Is that evidence of Israelis being indoctrinated to hate Arabs? I think not. It is rather, it appears, as evidence of some Israelis who are sick and tired of terror attacks emanating from the Arab population against their Jewish neighbors. When we go to war against Gazan Arabs, it is not a result of indoctrination or animosity, or training or propaganda to cause us to "hate" them. It is based soley on military considerations, to protect ourselves from assaults and clear and present dangers. Those repressive Arab dictatorships =/= Arabs in general, or Palestinians in particular. Try again.

5th October 2021, 08:38 AM	#2138
Allen773 Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Cali Four Neea Posts: 1,567	Originally Posted by Ziggurat In certain circles, these things are just assumed to be true, no evidence needed. Yet they will swear they aren't antisemitic. It's just "legitimate" criticism of Israel. What is your opinion of George Soros and his work?

5th October 2021, 08:45 AM	#2139
Allen773 Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Cali Four Neea Posts: 1,567	The Islamophobia industry Quote: The prevalence of Islamophobia in liberal discourse is part of the mainstreaming of anti-Muslim, anti-refugee and anti-migrant racism that many believe to be the territory of the far right. https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/can...obia-industry/ Donors to the Islamophobia network Quote: A small group of conservative foundations and wealthy donors are the lifeblood of the Islamophobia network in America. They provide critical funding to a clutch of right-wing think tanks and misinformation experts who peddle hate and fear of Muslims and Islam—in the form of books, reports, websites, blogs, and carefully crafted talking points, which dedicated anti-Islam grassroots organizations and some right-wing religious groups use as propaganda for their constituency. These foundations and wealthy donors also provide direct funding to anti-Islam grass- roots groups. https://cdn.americanprogress.org/wp-...773.1633448436

5th October 2021, 08:48 AM	#2140
Allen773 Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Cali Four Neea Posts: 1,567	Right-wingers have some nerve in pretending to care about anti-Semitism. The political Right have always been the most vicious anti-Semites — with the right-wing Germans of the 1930s-1945 and their collaborators across Europe and in the US being the most infamous and murderous, of course.

5th October 2021, 08:53 AM	#2141
webfusion Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 7,009	Allen773, you specifically said "indoctrinated with hatred of Arabs and Muslims?" If you have evidence, produce it.
webfusion Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 7,009

5th October 2021, 11:03 AM	#2142
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 51,713	Originally Posted by Allen773 Right-wingers have some nerve in pretending to care about anti-Semitism. The political Right have always been the most vicious anti-Semites — with the right-wing Germans of the 1930s-1945 and their collaborators across Europe and in the US being the most infamous and murderous, of course. Perhaps that's the case in Europe today, and that may have been true in the US decades ago. But in the US today, antisemitism is primarily found on the left. Anyone who doesn't recognize that is either clueless or in denial.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

5th October 2021, 12:02 PM	#2143
Aridas Crazy Little Green Dragon Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: East Coast, US Posts: 8,971	Originally Posted by Ziggurat Perhaps that's the case in Europe today, and that may have been true in the US decades ago. But in the US today, antisemitism is primarily found on the left. Anyone who doesn't recognize that is either clueless or in denial. That's a more complicated issue than you'd like to believe, honestly. For example, deadly terrorist attacks with notable political influence on Jews in the US, for example, have been almost completely done by right-wingers, at last check. White supremacists, in particular, have a long history of antisemitism and violence - and the Republican Party is both overwhelmingly their party of choice and they hold significant power and influence in it. Similarly, the antisemitic CT scene has been largely claimed by the right-wing. Going further, support for Israel in the US by the right is underpinned by some less pleasant drivers, at last check, not least being religion-related apocalypse courting. There's certainly anti-Israel sentiment (which is really not the same thing as antisemitism - hard right governments are generally not that popular with the left, after all) on the left and the left is much more welcoming towards Muslims in general, with a side of compassion for the decidedly unpleasant situation that the Palestinians are in. It's also true that it looks like left-wing antisemitism is on the rise in direct relation to growing sympathy for the situation that Palestinians are in. Personally, my assessment is that the balance still weighs notably more heavily toward the right's antisemitism being much more dangerous all around, though it doesn't outweigh the antisemitism on the left as much as it used to outweigh it. I'd also add that it's never been solely a right or left thing and that the right's long been very eager to point fingers at the left as they try to mislead.
	__________________ So sayeth the crazy little dragon. Last edited by Aridas; 5th October 2021 at 12:23 PM.

5th October 2021, 12:05 PM	#2144
Michel H Master Poster Join Date: May 2012 Location: Belgium Posts: 2,815	Originally Posted by webfusion ... That leaves the so-called West Bank. The operative documents regarding those lands remain the 1949 Rhodes Armistice Agreements. No other legal paperwork exists. (UN Resolutions nothwithstanding). You seem to have forgotten East Jerusalem (and also the occupied Golan Heights). What exactly do you mean with your sentence: Quote: No other legal paperwork exists. (UN Resolutions nothwithstanding) , webfusion? That (in your opinion) all U.N. Security Council resolutions pertaining to the Israel-Palestine conflict have no legal value?

5th October 2021, 12:33 PM	#2145
Michel H Master Poster Join Date: May 2012 Location: Belgium Posts: 2,815	Originally Posted by webfusion I found it fascinating (to put it charitably) that Allen773 posed such a question, without even bothering to produce any fair reason to suppose such a thing as he insinuated. https://www.israelnationalnews.com/N...ws.aspx/314465 "Palestine" territory is mostly described as from the “river to the sea” -- without Israel existing. A tenth grade textbook presents Jihad “for the liberation of Palestine” as a “private obligation for every Muslim” ... etc. etc. etc. I also find the lack of objectivity and honesty in Palestinian textbooks for children concerning. However, this is perhaps a reaction to Israeli (and U.S.) persecutions. Perhaps they feel it's all they have got. Many will probably learn the truth once they gain access to the Internet.

5th October 2021, 12:41 PM	#2146
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 51,713	Originally Posted by Michel H I also find the lack of objectivity and honesty in Palestinian textbooks for children concerning. However, this is perhaps a reaction to Israeli (and U.S.) persecutions. Perhaps they feel it's all they have got. Many will probably learn the truth once they gain access to the Internet. You're making excuses for terrorism, and the glorification of terrorism. Stop stanning for suicide bombers. It's pathetic. You're also naive about what exposure to the internet will do. There is hardly a shortage of antisemitic content on the internet, particularly in Arabic.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

5th October 2021, 12:59 PM	#2147
Michel H Master Poster Join Date: May 2012 Location: Belgium Posts: 2,815	Originally Posted by Ziggurat You're making excuses for terrorism, and the glorification of terrorism. Stop stanning for suicide bombers. It's pathetic. You're also naive about what exposure to the internet will do. There is hardly a shortage of antisemitic content on the internet, particularly in Arabic. People looking for antisemitic content on the Internet will probably be able to find some, but people really looking for the truth will probably be able to find it too (wikipedia, BBC in Arabic and so on). Difficult to imagine that Palestinian adults don't know that Israel does exist as a country. I also think that there may be a right to resistance for invaded and humiliated people (even by citizens). I see no reason why U.S. crime and stupidity should rule the world.

5th October 2021, 12:59 PM	#2148
webfusion Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 7,009	MichelH, The State of Israel has lawfully extended our sovereignty to the Golan Heights (December 14, 1981) and unified the entire Jerusalem municipality. In any case, Palestinians have no interests in the mountains of the Golan, that is between the Syrians and Israel, should Syria ever decide to approach that subject with Israel directly in the context of a peace treaty, but don't hold yer breath. Meanwhile, the border in that district is well-known to all concerned. It is clearly marked and UNDOF patrols it from the Syrian side. As for the Jerusalem municipal area, I cannot envision any power on earth making any headway in re-dividing our capital city. The best hope for Palestinians is AbuDis as their capital (where a Parliament building sits, uncompleted) and just call it "AlQuds" The Temple Mount and environs is non-negotiable, no matter what the UN Security Council proclaims. Do you think the UN Security Council is going to send in troops to dislodge this 37-acre public park from Israeli control? Yes? No? Maybe? Beyond that, can you point to any UNSC Resolution which defines the legal borders of this "State of Palestine" ? I'm curious where you saw that.
webfusion Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 7,009	Last edited by webfusion; 5th October 2021 at 01:01 PM.

5th October 2021, 01:04 PM	#2149
webfusion Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 7,009	MichelH, as you say that "Difficult to imagine that Palestinian adults don't know that Israel does exist as a country." you should have to explain what HAMAS means when they proclaim (in their Sacred Covenant) "Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp
webfusion Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 7,009

5th October 2021, 01:27 PM	#2150
Michel H Master Poster Join Date: May 2012 Location: Belgium Posts: 2,815	Originally Posted by webfusion MichelH, as you say that "Difficult to imagine that Palestinian adults don't know that Israel does exist as a country." you should have to explain what HAMAS means when they proclaim (in their Sacred Covenant) "Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp I think it's actually up to them to explain it, since it is them who wrote it. They may have done it to some extent already: Quote: Sep 11, 2018 News Hamas expressed its natural intellectual development over the past 30 years in the Document of Principles and Policies, former Chief of Hamas Political Bureau Khalid Meshal stated. ... Meshal confirmed that Hamas had not made any concessions regarding the interim Palestinian state on pre-1967 boundaries, but it put forward this proposal to pave the ground for national consensus, noting that the movement had adopted the option of resistance to restore the Palestinian lands and rights. (https://hamas.ps/en/post/1532/Hamas-...of-development). I don't rule out a situation where it would be Hamas (not Israel) which should actually be destroyed.
	Last edited by Michel H; 5th October 2021 at 02:47 PM.

5th October 2021, 02:11 PM	#2151
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 51,713	Originally Posted by Michel H People looking for antisemitic content on the Internet will probably be able to find some, but people really looking for the truth will probably be able to find it too (wikipedia, BBC in Arabic and so on). Difficult to imagine that Palestinian adults don't know that Israel does exist as a country. I also think that there may be a right to resistance for invaded and humiliated people (even by citizens). I see no reason why U.S. crime and stupidity should rule the world. You went full retard. Never go full retard.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

5th October 2021, 02:37 PM	#2152
digger Thinker Join Date: Oct 2021 Posts: 207	Originally Posted by Ziggurat Israeli children are not regularly taught in school that it's a good thing to kill Palestinians. So no, there really isn't a symmetry to the situation, at all. Israel occupation of Palestine kills many Palestinians. The justifications for this occupation and the deaths that it causes are taught to Israeli school children. Any who do not strenuously object serve in that army that kills Palestinians regularly as a right of passage. Can you demonstrate that Palestinian children are taught to kill Israelis, or is that a rumor you heard somewhere?
digger Thinker Join Date: Oct 2021 Posts: 207

5th October 2021, 02:57 PM	#2153
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 51,713	Originally Posted by digger Israel occupation of Palestine kills many Palestinians. Not really. Quote: Can you demonstrate that Palestinian children are taught to kill Israelis, or is that a rumor you heard somewhere? Information about this is widely available and easy to find. It's not rumor. For example: https://www.impact-se.org/wp-content...es_2019-20.pdf And we haven't even touched on the whole blood libel thing.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

6th October 2021, 07:49 AM	#2154
Cosmic Yak Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: Where there's never a road broader than the back of your hand. Posts: 5,956	Originally Posted by Ziggurat Perhaps that's the case in Europe today, and that may have been true in the US decades ago. But in the US today, antisemitism is primarily found on the left. Anyone who doesn't recognize that is either clueless or in denial. In the UK, antisemitism is largely a left-wing issue- look at the Labour Party under Corbyn. The right is more anti-Muslim and anti-immigrant.
	__________________ Fortuna Faveat Fatuis 'Of course it can be OK to mistreat people.'- shuttlt

6th October 2021, 10:50 AM	#2155
Allen773 Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Cali Four Neea Posts: 1,567	Originally Posted by Ziggurat Perhaps that's the case in Europe today, and that may have been true in the US decades ago. But in the US today, antisemitism is primarily found on the left. Anyone who doesn't recognize that is either clueless or in denial. “Jews will not replace us.” Those weren’t left-wingers marching with tiki torches. And leftists aren’t the ones obsessed with George Soros.