Continuation Donald Trump has 'dangerous mental illness' say psychiatry experts at Yale... Pt 3

[Masque]

Originally Posted by The Don

No doubt his supporters would say that he wasn't directly advocating injecting cleaning products or placing UV sources in the lungs, he was suggesting that scientists maybe think outside the box and explore ways to directly attack Coronavirus chemically or with radiation.

Chemotherapy and radiotherapy are effective treatments for cancer so why not explore their use in the fight against Coronavirus ?

President Trump is a visionary whose job it is to provide the vital catalyst to the people working to address Coronavirus, not to work through the minutiae of each particular thread. That's not to say that he couldn't do exactly that - after all his uncle was an MIT professor and those around him are continually amazed by his intellect and knowledge - but his responsibilities are so broad that it would be irresponsible for him to concentrate on just one thing.

Brilliantly done!

[xjx388]

Originally Posted by 3point14

Is anybody going to contend that suggesting using disinfectant intraveinously is the act of a sane man?

(this should be good...)

Can we get a full quote of this insanity?

[3point14]

I honestly didn't think anyone would try. Well done for sticking to your guns. I mean, it's bollocks rationalisation, that's clear, but I'm impressed by your refusal to accept reality.

[The Don]

Originally Posted by xjx388

Can we get a full quote of this insanity?

From a BBC article, here are the paragraphs in question.

Quote:

"So, supposing we hit the body with a tremendous - whether it's ultraviolet or just very powerful light," the president said, turning to Dr Deborah Birx, the White House coronavirus response co-ordinator, "and I think you said that hasn't been checked but you're going to test it.

"And then I said, supposing you brought the light inside of the body, which you can do either through the skin or in some other way. And I think you said you're going to test that too. Sounds interesting," the president continued.

Quote:

"And then I see the disinfectant where it knocks it out in a minute. One minute. And is there a way we can do something like that, by injection inside or almost a cleaning?

"So it'd be interesting to check that."

Pointing to his head, Mr Trump went on: "I'm not a doctor. But I'm, like, a person that has a good you-know-what."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52399464

Which is why I have repeatedly said that he didn't explicitly suggest injecting disinfectant.

[3point14]

Originally Posted by xjx388

Can we get a full quote of this insanity?

Probably.

I don't know that it matters though, as is pointed out above, he doesn't actually mean what he says. Except when he does. Although he's a self proclaimed expert in everything.

Can you tell me which bit he means and which he doesn't?

From here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52407177



"So, supposing we hit the body with a tremendous - whether it's ultraviolet or just very powerful light," the president said, turning to Dr Deborah Birx, the White House coronavirus response co-ordinator, "and I think you said that hasn't been checked but you're going to test it.

"And then I said, supposing you brought the light inside of the body, which you can do either through the skin or in some other way. And I think you said you're going to test that too. Sounds interesting," the president continued.
Media captionDonald Trump criticised Georgia’s governor for reopening

"And then I see the disinfectant where it knocks it out in a minute. One minute. And is there a way we can do something like that, by injection inside or almost a cleaning?

"So it'd be interesting to check that."

[3point14]

I must remember to quote stuff.

[LSSBB]

Originally Posted by 3point14

I honestly didn't think anyone would try. Well done for sticking to your guns. I mean, it's bollocks rationalisation, that's clear, but I'm impressed by your refusal to accept reality.

If you mean follow his advice, they would, and I'm guessing Trump got the idea from someone else, and wanted to use it to display his genius.
QAnon-ers’ Magic Cure for Coronavirus: Just Drink Bleach!

[LSSBB]

Narcissism, in combination with enormous power, influence, and political enablement, can indeed be lethal.

[3point14]

Originally Posted by LSSBB

If you mean follow his advice, they would, and I'm guessing Trump got the idea from someone else, and wanted to use it to display his genius.
QAnon-ers’ Magic Cure for Coronavirus: Just Drink Bleach!

No, I didn't mean that. Someone made a post that I responded to without quoting it, then they edited the post before time was up on changing it without a notification. It's probably best just to ignore that post of mine. Sorry.

[jimbob]

And he actually managed to make it worse. In the video, he certainly seemed to think that he was trying to help. Which simply says he's unaware of his limitations.

He's now claimed that was sarcastic. Which is obviously untrue, and if it were, it would have been utterly inappropriate. But it does show how utterly fragile his ego is.


But further from this.

Originally Posted by Lurch

Really? That there are the voices there are causes you no impulse to consider that there may be reason for concern?

How many such voices would you require? Would more folk raising alarums result in your resetting your expectations for yet more?

Consider for a moment those 1000 prosecutors who signed a letter stating that they considered evidence against Trump sufficient to warrant indictment. After the impeachment saga result, it's clear Republicans will not let such competent opinion sway them.

If but a fraction of what is written and said by *professionals* on Trump would have been directed at Obama, how would your tune have sounded? We can be sure Republicans and their supporters would have collectively screeched and howled.

Originally Posted by jimbob

And it's getting to be a moot point.

The OP in this thread was claiming out that Trump has a mental condition would lead him to act in a way that's dangerous.

His response to COVID-19 has certainly demonstrated some really bizarre behaviour and also some actions that have made the situation worse, which will lead to the needlessly avoidable deaths of thousands of Americans.

Without his bizarre behaviour, it might be difficult to claim he wasn't just utterly callous. With it, the simplest explanation is some form of mental illness. I'm going for some type of dementia, on top of almost textbook NPD.

XJX388, is there any behaviour that a POTUS would display that would make you say that the 25th Amendment should be invoked? At the moment, I'm struggling to see what more he could do to demonstrate his complete unfitness for office on grounds of mental incapacity.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Evidence of his pathologic behavior: watch how many of his proclamations and crazy ideas correlate with his imaginary world where the virus magically disappears (because he wants that to be real), and/or a magic bullet is found (because he wants that to be real). and/or the virus simply goes away in the summer (because he wants that to be real), and 'his' greatest economy in the history of the world (because he believes that fantasy) will simply start running full speed again in a few months (because he wants that to be real), and anything or person that exposes these fantasies are a plot/plotter against him personally (because he believes that fantasy).

That is all part of his pathology. And as we have seen over the last 3+ years, he cannot help himself.

[p0lka]

Originally Posted by 3point14

Is anybody going to contend that suggesting using disinfectant intraveinously is the act of a sane man?

(this should be good...)

I'm no fan of trump, but to be fair he was asking the scientists if they could look into his stupid idea,
he wasn't advocating people do it themselves.

[LSSBB]

Originally Posted by p0lka

I'm no fan of trump, but to be fair he was asking the scientists if they could look into his stupid idea,
he wasn't advocating people do it themselves.

"The sentence "It'd be interesting to check that" is not directed at any scientists explicitly. Saying it is there is supplying your own interpretation. Resorting on followers who believe his every word, many who do not trust scientists, is dangerous. The "bleach" proponents who fed him the idea a few days earlier certainly don't trust scientists.

[bruto]

Originally Posted by p0lka

I'm no fan of trump, but to be fair he was asking the scientists if they could look into his stupid idea,
he wasn't advocating people do it themselves.

That seems to be so, but I think given Trump's history of espousing stupid theories, of believing he's smarter than everyone else, and the history of those who follow him and believe him, it was at the very least recklessly, cluelessly stupid.

If he actually wanted scientists to look into his wacky and dangerous theories, he could, of course, have asked them off camera. I mean, I don't think it would be too hard to ask one of the many medical experts who are, one hopes, on tap during this crisis: "Hey, what would happen if you injected yourself with bleach?" But no, he chose to do it on camera for a nationwide audience, with the implication that he'd thought of something ingenious that they had not.

If that is not crazily megalomaniacal, it's outrageously (some might well say unforgiveably) stupid. As usual, the only way it seems possible to justify Trump's crazy behavior is to characterize him as too stupid to pass for crazy. Quite a choice.

[Stacyhs]

Originally Posted by The Don

I'll bite.....

He's not insane, just ignorant.

He sees that disinfectant is effective at killing Coronavirus. People with Coronavirus need to have it killed so why not see whether "disinfectant" can be introduced into the human body.

Maybe it's not literally a name-brand disinfectant but maybe some medically-safe substance that does a similar job. Maybe he's just suggesting that the scientific Poindexters take a lead from a real-world can-do guy like himself and investigate some out of the box alternatives because whatever they're doing isn't working fast enough for the Great American People.

I can see, many months or years down the road, that there possibly may be a treatment for Coronavirus which chemically attacks the Coronavirus in-situ, a bit like a disinfectant. President Trump will proudly proclaim that it's his brilliant idea and that he has the greatest mind of all time ignoring the minor details that:

• The treatment was under development months before his ridiculous utterances
• The treatment isn't a disinfectant, it's a poorly chosen analogy to try and educate the scientifically illiterate and hard of understanding - like President Trump
• It isn't injected, it's administered by other means
• The development of, testing of and distribution of the treatment wasn't inspired or helped by President Trump in any way, shape or form

That statement was not ignorant, it was stupid. Big difference.

I agree Trump isn't insane, but he is mentally ill. The two are not synonymous.

[xjx388]

Originally Posted by jimbob

And he actually managed to make it worse. In the video, he certainly seemed to think that he was trying to help. Which simply says he's unaware of his limitations.

He's now claimed that was sarcastic. Which is obviously untrue, and if it were, it would have been utterly inappropriate. But it does show how utterly fragile his ego is.


But further from this.





XJX388, is there any behaviour that a POTUS would display that would make you say that the 25th Amendment should be invoked? At the moment, I'm struggling to see what more he could do to demonstrate his complete unfitness for office on grounds of mental incapacity.

You are questioning me about something irrelevant to what I’ve been saying. I wouldn’t object if the VP or the Cabinet initiated 25th amendment proceedings to have him removed just based on his utter cluelessness, demonstrated incompetence and public inanity.

That has nothing to do with my argument here. I’m objecting to medical professionals issuing public diagnoses/evaluations for which there is no basis according to the ethics and standards of their professions. I’m objecting to “professional opinions” that are not based on professional practice.

I’ve made my layperson opinion about Trump very clear. I have no objection to lay opinions or if medical professionals would speak out as citizens and not medical professionals.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by p0lka

I'm no fan of trump, but to be fair he was asking the scientists if they could look into his stupid idea,
he wasn't advocating people do it themselves.

So asking scientists to try injecting disinfectants?

Asking scientists to do anything, Trump is a Dufus. Does he believe his passing on some ignorant suggestion to doctors is a useful thing to do?

Trump is asking doctors and scientists to do X because in Trump's pathologic fantasy, these ideas of magical cures are real.

[xjx388]

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

That statement was not ignorant, it was stupid. Big difference.

I agree Trump isn't insane, but he is mentally ill. The two are not synonymous.

I wonder if you can elucidate what you see as the difference. “Dangerously mentally ill,” is a pretty good shorthand for “insane” in a clinical sense.

[xjx388]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

So asking scientists to try injecting disinfectants?

Asking scientists to do anything, Trump is a Dufus. Does he believe his passing on some ignorant suggestion to doctors is a useful thing to do?

Trump is asking doctors and scientists to do X because in Trump's pathologic fantasy, these ideas of magical cures are real.

Trump is ignorant and he thinks he is smarter than he really is. No argument. He engaged in some ignorant speculation. He’s dumb and dumb is dangerous in a POTUS.

Pathology is not a necessary ingredient in the **** salad Trump is serving us.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by xjx388

...
That has nothing to do with my argument here. I’m objecting to medical professionals issuing public diagnoses/evaluations for which there is no basis according to the ethics and standards of their professions. I’m objecting to “professional opinions” that are not based on professional practice.
I’ve made my layperson opinion about Trump very clear. I have no objection to lay opinions or if medical professionals would speak out as citizens and not medical professionals.

Do you not see any contradiction in those words?

Should medical professionals observing the obvious not voice their professional predictions as to how Trump's pathology is guiding his actions?

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by xjx388

Trump is ignorant and he thinks he is smarter than he really is. No argument. He engaged in some ignorant speculation. He’s dumb and dumb is dangerous in a POTUS.

Pathology is not a necessary ingredient in the **** salad Trump is serving us.

It is when you observe he cannot behave any other way.

[xjx388]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Do you not see any contradiction in those words?

Should medical professionals observing the obvious not voice their professional predictions as to how Trump's pathology is guiding his actions?

No, they shouldn’t. They should talk about his actual actions, statements and policies and maybe give us an educated opinion about what the likely outcome is in their experience. They should not diagnose him, say he’s mentally ill or otherwise wear their white coat when doing so. They should also preface their commentary with something like, “I have not personally examined Trump so this isn’t a professional opinion...”

IOW, their professional status should not be used to lend undue weight to their opinions.

[xjx388]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

It is when you observe he cannot behave any other way.

How does “pathology” change the flavor of the salad, so to speak? There is still **** in the salad either way.

[Stacyhs]

Originally Posted by xjx388

I wonder if you can elucidate what you see as the difference. “Dangerously mentally ill,” is a pretty good shorthand for “insane” in a clinical sense.

Not really. There is no medical definition for 'insane'; it's only a legal definition:

Quote:

Insanity is now a purely legal term, denoting a condition due to which a person lacks criminal responsibility for a crime and therefore cannot be convicted of it.

However, in past medical usage 'insanity' referred to severe mental disorders such as bi-polar, schizophrenia and other psychoses where the person was not rational or living in reality.
On the other hand, mental illness runs from mild to severe. OCD is a mental illness but can be mild or severe depending on how negatively it impacts a person's life.

Trump isn't insane, but he does have NPD which is a mental disorder.

[p0lka]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

So asking scientists to try injecting disinfectants?

SEW you could watch the vid to find the answer yourself.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Asking scientists to do anything, Trump is a Dufus. Does he believe his passing on some ignorant suggestion to doctors is a useful thing to do?

It's his attempt to look smart for the audience.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Trump is asking doctors and scientists to do X because in Trump's pathologic fantasy, these ideas of magical cures are real.

You gotta be more skeptical, Trumps main concern is looking smart, I doubt he's got so far as having an opinion one way or the other, he'll just follow his nose.

[Lurch]

Originally Posted by xjx388

You are questioning me about something irrelevant to what I’ve been saying. I wouldn’t object if the VP or the Cabinet initiated 25th amendment proceedings to have him removed just based on his utter cluelessness, demonstrated incompetence and public inanity.

That has nothing to do with my argument here. I’m objecting to medical professionals issuing public diagnoses/evaluations for which there is no basis according to the ethics and standards of their professions. I’m objecting to “professional opinions” that are not based on professional practice.

I’ve made my layperson opinion about Trump very clear. I have no objection to lay opinions or if medical professionals would speak out as citizens and not medical professionals.

You would support the VP and the Cabinet were they to make the determination to remove the POTUS, even though they are not mental health professionals. (Or at least you say so, safely knowing full well such will never occur.)

But you steadfastly rail against the warnings of professionals who see, with decades to draw upon, *not so very much less* than the people in Trump's orbit.

Your argument seems almost to be predicated on the notion that Trump just 'yesterday', figuratively speaking, sprung up out of the ground. We all have available to us a remarkably detailed history of this man, what with his need for attention.

Why so wedded to the notion that a professional should never exercise a duty to warn? With a cabal of enablers, opportunists and lackeys who will not take Trump to task, and indeed who actively work to keep him installed in power, then even the last resort of an election may fail.

And knowing Trump would never submit to examination, that only demands a 'remote' assessment, for lack of the preferred mode.

[xjx388]

Originally Posted by Lurch

You would support the VP and the Cabinet were they to make the determination to remove the POTUS, even though they are not mental health professionals. (Or at least you say so, safely knowing full well such will never occur.)

I would support that. Removal is a political process. There is no existing mechanism to remove a President because he is “obviously mentally ill.” Mental illness is not a criteria for either disqualifying a candidate OR removing an elected official.

Quote:

But you steadfastly rail against the warnings of professionals who see, with decades to draw upon, *not so very much less* than the people in Trump's orbit.

I rail against the misapplication of medical science and the flouting of medical ethics. No more, mo less.

Quote:

Your argument seems almost to be predicated on the notion that Trump just 'yesterday', figuratively speaking, sprung up out of the ground. We all have available to us a remarkably detailed history of this man, what with his need for attention.

Not my position at all. We are all familiar with Trump. The voters had all the information they needed to either vote for him or not. They will again in November. The Yale Group didn’t speak out before the election and their subsequent warnings have largely been ignored. Trump may very well win again, despite actually seeing him in action as POTUS. I am not sure what value there is in warnings from medical professionals who aren’t following professional standards or professional ethics.

Quote:

Why so wedded to the notion that a professional should never exercise a duty to warn?

They should: When they have specific information about a specific, identifiable threat to specific, identifiable individuals. The Yale Group has not provided that. They speak in generalities.

Quote:

With a cabal of enablers, opportunists and lackeys who will not take Trump to task, and indeed who actively work to keep him installed in power, then even the last resort of an election may fail.

This is a political problem, not a medical problem.

Quote:

And knowing Trump would never submit to examination, that only demands a 'remote' assessment, for lack of the preferred mode.

There is no situation in medicine in which you substitute an unproven method for a proven method.

[dann]

Originally Posted by xjx388

I rail against the misapplication of medical science and the flouting of medical ethics.

Do you also rail against the president's misapplication of what he seems to believe is medical science?

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by xjx388

How does “pathology” change the flavor of the salad, so to speak? There is still **** in the salad either way.

He cannot stop, he cannot help himself. When you understand that you can see all his actions are because he's mentally ill.

In all the Trump threads people in this forum are still saying things like he's doing X for his base.

Sometimes that is true like his pandering to the Evangelicals and hugging the flag. His wall and some of his racism is pandering. I say some because some of it is his own racism.

But the majority of the time Trump is only about Trump. There is no more behind his actions than that.

It's absurd to 'not talk about it as a professional'. It would be disengenious.


You need to reassess your heel digging in here.

Dr Lee is very passionate about her obligation to speak out about Trump. Co-authored with Thomas Singer, MD
Mental Health Experts Urge Revision of the Goldwater Rule - Psychiatrists formally propose revising a highly divisive rule.

Quote:

Following a debate at the American College of Psychiatrists’ annual meeting, the audience was provided with four options: retain the Goldwater rule, abandon the Goldwater rule, modify the Goldwater rule, or abstain from voting. A large majority of the audience voted for a modification, overwhelming all three of the other options (Bosworth, 2018). Dr. Steven Sharfstein, a past president of the APA and a paragon of ethics in resisting governmental pressure during the Iraq War to modify ethical guidelines to allow for torture, as the American Psychological Association had done (Ackerman, 2015), was in that majority. A poll by Psychiatric Times specifically addressing the instance of Trump yielded tenuous support for the APA’s position at best (Moffic, 2018).

BTW, this is not about profiting from the book:

Quote:

More than two dozen mental health experts tried to address this issue in a public service book (with all royalties going into a public fund), The Dangerous Case of Donald Trump, which I edited and to which Dr. Thomas Singer contributed. The book arose out of an ethics conference at Yale, with Drs. Robert Jay Lifton, Judith Herman, and James Gilligan, also co-authors, as its principal speakers (Milligan, 2017).

There's more but it will have to wait, I can't keep my eyes open.

[dann]

At this point, all the people who are so insane that they still think Trump isn't should be busy drinking or injecting bleach, trying to come up with ways to expose their lungs to UV light, and maybe topping it off with a bit of hydroxychloroquine for dessert.
However, that appears to be the point where a bit of sanity returns.

[slyjoe]

Trump says he never got out of first grade:

Quote:

"When I look at myself in the first grade and I look at myself now, I’m basically the same. The temperament is not that different."

Now its been a while since I had a child development or abnormal psych class, but this should tell you something.

Quote is from an interview with a biographer in 2015.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by slyjoe

Trump says he never got out of first grade:



Now its been a while since I had a child development or abnormal psych class, but this should tell you something.

Quote is from an interview with a biographer in 2015.

Stable genius.

Actually this fits with his imaginary self: he has always been perfect, fantastic, [fill in more superlatives ad nauseum].

[Stacyhs]

That Trump has a mental illness/disorder is not questionable by anyone who is not deluding himself or just plain stupid. He meets so many of the criteria for NPD that he could be the poster boy for it. We see it on a daily basis. I don't care if he's been formally diagnosed or not because the fact is he would never agree to being evaluated. A doctor doesn't need to SEE a compound fracture in person to diagnose it. All this Goldwater Rule bickering is irrelevant. The man is mentally ill. Period.

[bruto]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Stable genius.

Actually this fits with his imaginary self: he has always been perfect, fantastic, [fill in more superlatives ad nauseum].

I thought Mr. Ed was the stable genius. Trump is back there with the fork.

[Bob001]

Doc Gartner weighs in again:

Quote:

Like in a relationship, Donald Trump is the abuser. He is the husband or father who is abusing his partner or children or other relatives. The American people are like a woman who is leaving her abuser. She tells her abuser, "That's it! I am done with you!" She has her keys in hand and is opening the door of the house or apartment to finally leave. What happens? The democidal maniac Donald Trump will attack us, badly. Make no mistake. Donald Trump is going to find a way to attack and cause great harm to the American people if he believes that he will lose the 2020 election.

https://www.salon.com/2020/04/25/psy...g-in-sabotage/

[Solitaire]

Originally Posted by Bob001

Doc Gartner weighs in again:

https://www.salon.com/2020/04/25/psy...g-in-sabotage/

Wow.

Practically every recession over the past fifty years has occurred during
Republican administrations hints that they do not care about the economy
despite what the article states.

Take this one with a grain of salt.

[Resume]

Look, the nitwit can't even stand in front of the cameras with a sheepish grin on his face and say, "Injecting disinfectant, did I say that out loud? Ooops, don't do that."

Instead, he blames everyone else, lies about what he said, then goes off and pouts like a six-year-old in the middle of a health crisis when the country needs an actual leader.

He's nuts.

[The Don]

Originally Posted by Resume

Look, the nitwit can't even stand in front of the cameras with a sheepish grin on his face and say, "Injecting disinfectant, did I say that out loud? Ooops, don't do that."

Instead, he blames everyone else, lies about what he said, then goes off and pouts like a six-year-old in the middle of a health crisis when the country needs an actual leader.

He's nuts.

He's also the kind of leader that 40%-45% of the US population seem to like and want - even if only a little over half of those can be bothered to vote for him (then again only a little over half bothered to turn out at all).

President Donald Trump didn't appear from nowhere, he's not the cause, he's merely a symptom of what ails the US (and IMO what also ails the UK, Brazil and other countries).

[Safe-Keeper]

Originally Posted by The Don

He's also the kind of leader that 40%-45% of the US population seem to like and want - even if only a little over half of those can be bothered to vote for him (then again only a little over half bothered to turn out at all).

President Donald Trump didn't appear from nowhere, he's not the cause, he's merely a symptom of what ails the US (and IMO what also ails the UK, Brazil and other countries).

"This guy is a complete buffoon, but he hates black people like me, so imma vote for him and damn the consequences."

[xjx388]

Originally Posted by dann

Do you also rail against the president's misapplication of what he seems to believe is medical science?

Sure . . . but he's not a doctor. I don't hold him to their standards. I hold him to the standards of an elected official. I find his behavior is dangerous and unethical because he fails to listen to his medical advisors and incorporate their expertise in his thinking. He thinks he's smarter than them and his word is gold. Even so, there is no real ethical code or standard of practice for elected officials. My analysis is just based on what I think our elected officials should do, whereas my analysis of the doctors is based on the standards and ethics of their profession.