Business Insider: US Allies say riot had tacit support from US gov't agencies

ChristianProgressive · 7th January 2021, 03:27 PM

https://www.businessinsider.com/trum...2fLH_WEdmKuzgc

All this could have been avoided if Obama had the spine to arrest his Treasonous ass back in 2016...smh...

Segnosaur · 7th January 2021, 04:51 PM

Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive

Business Insider: US Allies say riot had tacit support from US gov't agencies

Great... now American allies will be wary of any sort of co-operation with the U.S. law enforcement, because they won't know if the officers involved supported the riots (and overthrowing the government) or not.

Skeptic Ginger · 7th January 2021, 04:56 PM

No evidence. Only speculation by people outside the US who otherwise did not even admit to insider information, just "this looks like it to us."

That's some really irresponsible reporting.

Quote:

Insider spoke with three officials on Thursday morning: a French police official responsible for public security in a key section of central Paris, and two intelligence officials from NATO countries who directly work in counterterrorism and counterintelligence operations involving the US, terrorism, and Russia.

They said the circumstantial evidence available pointed to what would be openly called a coup attempt in any other nation....

While they did not furnish evidence that federal agency officials facilitated the chaos, ...

Their observations are the same thing we all saw:

Quote:

"The defeated president gives a speech to a group of supporters where he tells them he was robbed of the election, denounces his own administration's members and party as traitors, and tells his supporters to storm the building where the voting is being held," the NATO intelligence official said.

"The supporters, many dressed in military attire and waving revolutionary-style flags, then storm the building where the federal law-enforcement agencies controlled by the current president do not establish a security cordon, and the protesters quickly overwhelm the last line of police.

"The president then makes a public statement to the supporters attacking the Capitol that he loves them but doesn't really tell them to stop," the official said. "Today I am briefing my government that we believe with a reasonable level of certainty that Donald Trump attempted a coup that failed when the system did not buckle.

I get where they are coming from. But there are many things wrong with their conclusions, mainly because of the first things reported in the article: No actual evidence.

Now this assessment is probably correct, but not for the reasons being stated:

Quote:

A law-enforcement official who trains with US forces believes someone interfered with the proper deployment of officers around Congress

Incompetence and wrongly believing the right-wingers were friends of the police is a better explanation than someone actually planning to interfere with a response.

This story belongs in the CT forum: it claims there was some kind of planning when there is no evidence of any such thing.

dudalb · 7th January 2021, 06:04 PM

Not nealry enough evidence.

Checkmite · 7th January 2021, 06:37 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Their observations are the same thing we all saw:I get where they are coming from. But there are many things wrong with their conclusions, mainly because of the first things reported in the article: No actual evidence.

There's no evidence of deliberate coordination with federal law enforcement agencies.

But the visual evidence that it was a coup attempt is that it looked exactly like what a coup attempt looks like and did not look like anything else. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, leaves droppings that are identical to duck droppings, etc.

Most of your objections can be summarized as "it wasn't successful", which doesn't mean it wasn't a coup. The rest of your objects (like "the military wasn't involved") are irrelevant because they're not necessary elements of a coup. Meanwhile, actual intelligence officials who deal with terrorism and things like coups as their area of expertise agree that it can be credibly called a failed coup attempt, and at least one of the sources reported that he was, in fact, briefing his government that it was exactly such a thing.

Checkmite · 7th January 2021, 08:11 PM

Pentagon leaders installed as part of Trump purge last month blocked DC National Guard from getting riot gear and ammunition as protesters descended on Capitol.

Segnosaur · 7th January 2021, 08:39 PM

Originally Posted by Checkmite

Pentagon leaders installed as part of Trump purge last month blocked DC National Guard from getting riot gear and ammunition as protesters descended on Capitol.

I am not trying to absolve the Pentagon (or the Trump-installed leaders), but this part of the article stuck out to me:

In memos issued Monday and Tuesday in response to a request from the D.C. mayor, the Pentagon prohibited the District’s guardsmen from receiving ammunition or riot gear, interacting with protesters unless necessary for self-defense, sharing equipment with local law enforcement, or using Guard surveillance and air assets without the defense secretary’s explicit sign-off, according to officials familiar with the orders. The limits were established because the Guard hadn’t been asked to assist with crowd or riot control.
...
The Capitol Police, the law enforcement force that reports to Congress and protects the House and Senate, hadn’t requested help from the Guard ahead of Wednesday’s events.

The pentagon may deserve much of the blame, but it looks like the Capitol police were also partly at fault. (They could have asked for help prior to Wednesday.)

timhau · 7th January 2021, 09:57 PM

Originally Posted by Segnosaur

I am not trying to absolve the Pentagon (or the Trump-installed leaders), but this part of the article stuck out to me:

In memos issued Monday and Tuesday in response to a request from the D.C. mayor, the Pentagon prohibited the District’s guardsmen from receiving ammunition or riot gear, interacting with protesters unless necessary for self-defense, sharing equipment with local law enforcement, or using Guard surveillance and air assets without the defense secretary’s explicit sign-off, according to officials familiar with the orders. The limits were established because the Guard hadn’t been asked to assist with crowd or riot control.
...
The Capitol Police, the law enforcement force that reports to Congress and protects the House and Senate, hadn’t requested help from the Guard ahead of Wednesday’s events.

The pentagon may deserve much of the blame, but it looks like the Capitol police were also partly at fault. (They could have asked for help prior to Wednesday.)

I wonder what the normal procedure is. Are te Capitol police used to immediate cooperation?

Checkmite · 7th January 2021, 10:56 PM

Originally Posted by timhau

I wonder what the normal procedure is. Are te Capitol police used to immediate cooperation?

My impression was that the various individual law enforcement agencies across DC had some kind of arrangement or rules in place where calls for assistance could be made and responded to very quickly if a situation suddenly developed. I mean, that's just common sense.

But either I'm wrong, OR the sudden limitations on the National Guard were an abnormal change of policy.

The Great Zaganza · 7th January 2021, 10:58 PM

it's another case of people in government being conditioned over the last four years not to do anything that would put them in direct opposition to 45.

Hlafordlaes · 7th January 2021, 11:58 PM

Infinite lollipops for Whine boys, forever and ever more, thank White Jesus. That's all you need to explain today's GOP, US "conservative" "culture", the Confederacy then and now, and the near-immediate attempt today to blame the destruction evidently and openly caused by Whine boys on Jan 6... on others. I mean, how lame and spineless can you get?

Momma's skirt, please house the Proud Boys until this blows over. Po' little patriots just wanted to save their divine right to a leg up, c'mon.

ChristianProgressive · 8th January 2021, 01:46 AM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

This story belongs in the CT forum: it claims there was some kind of planning when there is no evidence of any such thing.

Oh, really?

https://www.propublica.org/article/c...=pocket-newtab

Like one of the (French, IIRC) Sources from the original article said, this isn't rocket science. and it isn't the Captal Police's first rodeo, as the BLM protests proved. There's also the issue of why the early requests for the NG were denied at high levels.

Is there smoking gun proof? Arguably not. But there IS plenty of evidence and the conclusions in the original article are valid ones for any observer to draw, esp intel observers.

You're making the same "mistake" that the Left and the rest of the nation did prior to Jan.6. Refusing to see the signs until it was almost too late.

ChristianProgressive · 8th January 2021, 01:48 AM

Originally Posted by timhau

I wonder what the normal procedure is. Are te Capitol police used to immediate cooperation?

Look at what happened at the BLM protests. Look at what happened at Lafeyette Park just before the photo op. Look at what happened in cities all over the US all summer.

The notion that the government capable of pulling off a show of force that well put together suddenly botched it? Laughable.

The Great Zaganza · 8th January 2021, 01:57 AM

Until I see evidence to the contrary, I assume that the Capitol Police deliberately let the puschists through to frightened the incoming Administration into denouncing efforts to Defund the Police and instead increase their funding.
They probably didn't think it would go that far, but they sure were intentionally not doing their job.

uke2se · 8th January 2021, 06:12 AM

Add it to the list of things to investigate once the Fascists are out of power. Should probably be a priority, though.

Hlafordlaes · 8th January 2021, 02:03 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

... This story belongs in the CT forum: it claims there was some kind of planning when there is no evidence of any such thing.

The most damning claim I see in the article is this, from a French official:

Quote:

"You cannot tell me I don't know what they should have done. I can fly to Washington tomorrow and do that job, just as any police official in Washington can fly to Paris and do mine," the official said. The official directs public security in a central Paris police district filled with government buildings and tourist sites.

"These are not subtle principles" for managing demonstrations, "and they transfer to every situation," the official said. "This is why we train alongside the US federal law enforcement to handle these very matters, and it's obvious that large parts of any successful plan were just ignored."

Italics mine.

Even to the untrained eye, there was a very noticeable lack of any sort of credible protection for foreseeable circumstances. The claim is that there are standard protocols that others can see were not followed, ones that they also train with US personnel in performing, so ignorance cannot be claimed, only failure to implement.

I smell a rat, call it conspiracy or not, but something isn't right. That some Capitol Police were reportedly allowing themselves to appear in selfies inside the building with the terrorists would be at minimum an indication there were no standing orders for the protest in place. It would also seem to indicate there were no protocols for handling unauthorized personnel in the building, which is a known falsehood. Therefore, somebody stood down. Purposefully.

Lone rat? A few rats, here and there? Any Big Cheeses? We shall see.

Skeptic Ginger · 8th January 2021, 05:00 PM

Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes

The most damning claim I see in the article is this, from a French official:

Italics mine.

Even to the untrained eye, there was a very noticeable lack of any sort of credible protection for foreseeable circumstances. The claim is that there are standard protocols that others can see were not followed, ones that they also train with US personnel in performing, so ignorance cannot be claimed, only failure to implement.

I smell a rat, call it conspiracy or not, but something isn't right. That some Capitol Police were reportedly allowing themselves to appear in selfies inside the building with the terrorists would be at minimum an indication there were no standing orders for the protest in place. It would also seem to indicate there were no protocols for handling unauthorized personnel in the building, which is a known falsehood. Therefore, somebody stood down. Purposefully.

Lone rat? A few rats, here and there? Any Big Cheeses? We shall see.

Do we have any evidence yet there was any kind of central planning here? It is not contained in the article I responded to. NONE!

Since that time articles have surfaced that riot equipment was denied to the DC National Guard by the civilian leaders of the Pentagon.

We need some more pieces here. When was that denial: for this event or close to it? Because all national guard troops aren't given a lot of weapons? Months ago because ignorant Trump has slashed budgets right and left?

Is there any evidence anything was coordinated? Not yet.

Are Trump and these Pentagon decision makers interacting with the 4Chan, Parler or whichever relevant sites?

Why no whistleblowers? Surely there is someone who would report this, like the men/women on the front lines? A call to the papers, "Hey, we are expecting a potentially dangerous Trump supporter rally and our bosses aren't giving us what we need"?

This is where the thread starts belonging over in the CT subforum. What is a classic deficiency in a lot of these CTs: No way it could have happened without lots and lots of people knowing about it. And if a lot of people knew about it, how is it no one has blown the whistle?

OTOH, incompetence and racism underestimating the 'police-friendly" rioters does check all the boxes.

Yes, we will see.

Mader Levap · 8th January 2021, 05:02 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

OTOH, incompetence underestimating the 'police-friendly" rioters does check all the boxes.

Deny, minimize.

You know you are rubbing elbows with cool crowd, right?

PhantomWolf · 8th January 2021, 05:56 PM

Originally Posted by Mader Levap

Deny, minimize.

You know you are rubbing elbows with cool crowd, right?

You know that this is supposed to be a Skeptic's Forum right? Allegation without evidence were once frown on here, as were Appeals to Authority.

Mumbles · 8th January 2021, 07:35 PM

Please.

The women's march, like most others, were warned not to bring signs on posts, due to the potential of them being confused for weapons.

Racism can explain the wild overreaction we often see to black people protesting nonviolently, but it definitely does *not* explain flatly ignoring the white, wealthy goons openly planning violence on common internet platforms - especially when even a hotel said "Yeah, we're closed for this event, we don't need you knuckleheads staying here again, like you did twice since the election. Get out."

enough competent pros involved have said "We asked for more security, upper levels denied it" to tell you that someone was, at best, gleefully and willfully negligent.

ChristianProgressive · 8th January 2021, 08:50 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Why no whistleblowers? Surely there is someone who would report this, like the men/women on the front lines? A call to the papers, "Hey, we are expecting a potentially dangerous Trump supporter rally and our bosses aren't giving us what we need"?

1) Arugument from Credulity fallacy.

2) People keep secrets all the time. Especially in organizations with a strong component of secrecy Whistleblowing is actually quite rare. That's why we had to pass special laws to encourage and protect those who do. And even then "snitching" or "ratting" carries a high price. Just ask people like Vinderman, or the woman in Florida who exposed Gov. DeSatan's cooking of the COVID data. Or the women who came forward and talked about ICE's Crimes Against Humanity in their concentration camps.

ChristianProgressive · 8th January 2021, 08:53 PM

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf

You know that this is supposed to be a Skeptic's Forum right? Allegation without evidence were once frown on here, as were Appeals to Authority.

Since there is plenty of evidence, that's not a problem.

PhantomWolf · 8th January 2021, 09:21 PM

Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive

Since there is plenty of evidence, that's not a problem.

So far I have seen more evidence that the Democrats stole the Election than I have that this was a coordinated coup attempt involving federal departments.

Hlafordlaes · 8th January 2021, 10:53 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Do we have any evidence yet there was any kind of central planning here? It is not contained in the article I responded to. NONE!

I did not claim that. The article did not claim that. Yet some form of like-minded reaction occurred which cannot be dismissed by hand-waving. A thorough and proper investigation is needed (i.e., no ring-kissing Republicans defending royal whim).

Bold and highlights are no substitute for rational argument.

Hlafordlaes · 8th January 2021, 10:55 PM

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf

So far I have seen more evidence that the Democrats stole the Election than I have that this was a coordinated coup attempt involving federal departments.

So far, no investigation, so duh. But the quisling attempt at yet establishing some form of equivalence is noted.

Kaylee · 9th January 2021, 01:22 AM

I'm surprised and disappointed that this thread was moved to the Conspiracy forum. The article seems credible and the Business Insider has a
high factual reporting score per mediabiascheckfacts.com.

Recall that less than 2 weeks after the presidential election Trump "carried out sweeping changes atop the Defense Department's civilian leadership structure, removing several of its most senior officials and replacing them with perceived loyalists to the President."

It was reported on the 6th that help did not arrive until more than 2 hours after it was requested by the US Capital Police and the help was delayed by the Pentagon.

IMHO, the fact that Trump changed the leadership structure in the Pentagon in November helps prove premeditation to commit sedition. Any other president upon losing reelection would be focused on tying up loose ends, not thinking about replacing key staff at the Pentagon.

Links for the above are in a similar post I wrote in another thread.

ChristianProgressive · 9th January 2021, 06:00 AM

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf

So far I have seen more evidence that the Democrats stole the Election than I have that this was a coordinated coup attempt involving federal departments.

Additional evidence has surfaced and been documented, such as photos of "rioters" with large bundles of police-grade flex cuffs. This was planned and at least elements of the government were in on it.

ChristianProgressive · 9th January 2021, 06:01 AM

Originally Posted by Kaylee

I'm surprised and disappointed that this thread was moved to the Conspiracy forum. The article seems credible and the Business Insider has a
high factual reporting score per mediabiascheckfacts.com.

I'm sad too. This board has it's biases though, and you get used to it, I suppose after awhile.

Wolrab · 9th January 2021, 07:38 AM

Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive

Additional evidence has surfaced and been documented, such as photos of "rioters" with large bundles of police-grade flex cuffs. This was planned and at least elements of the government were in on it.

Damn, smoking gun! Unless there was a sale: https://www.handcuffwarehouse.com/di...le-restraints/

Mader Levap · 9th January 2021, 09:29 AM

Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive

Additional evidence has surfaced and been documented, such as photos of "rioters" with large bundles of police-grade flex cuffs. This was planned

Yes...

Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive

and at least elements of the government were in on it.

...but you can get this equipment elsewhere. So no, merely having cuffs is not evidence you need.

Axxman300 · 9th January 2021, 01:34 PM

Okay, for those new to the Conspiracy Theories section; welcome.

This is everybody's chance to watch Conspiracy Theories take shape in the public consciences in real-time.

We are only 3 days out from the event. The reports are coming in every hour, and it takes time to verify them to weed out inaccuracies, place them in context, and toss out mis-information (and there is a lot of that right now). Extremists on both sides are working overtime to control the narrative so on top of everything else the truth is cloudy at best.

Keep this in mind: Things reported today could very well be proven wrong tomorrow. CTists will hold onto every wrong report as if it was always true.

The event is being investigated by dozens of Federal agencies at this moment. Nothing is set in stone as far as chain of events, and if any single entity was behind this, or if many entities coordinated to pull this off. We will have to wait a while due to the change of Presidential Administrations which will effect every government agency including those currently investigating 1/6/21.

So be careful about what you choose as your facts.

ChristianProgressive · 9th January 2021, 06:02 PM

Originally Posted by Wolrab

Damn, smoking gun! Unless there was a sale: https://www.handcuffwarehouse.com/di...le-restraints/

Originally Posted by Mader Levap

Yes...

...but you can get this equipment elsewhere. So no, merely having cuffs is not evidence you need.

It's not by itself smoking gun proof, no, but it does show that this was a planned event and people spent time getting ready to do it.

From there you have the additional data points that:

There was open chatter on various fora for weeks planning the action.
People showed up to the event in identity concealing masks/clothes wearing tactical body armor.
The NG was denied authority to gear up and stand by in case of a mass disturbance by their chain of command.
Capital Police utterly failed to provide more than a token cordon around the building where they ringed the place with thousands of heavily armed officers for far less violent BLM protesters just months prior.
Elements of the Capital Police actively stood aside and allowed the rioters through the police lines. Some even posed for selfies with the rioters.
Foreign intelligence officials, who are trained to "read the tea leaves" were so conceerned that they took the nearly unprecidented step of going public with their fears to a major media outlet.

That's a pretty strong case, and it's bullflop to dismiss it as "conspiracy theory".

ChristianProgressive · 9th January 2021, 06:05 PM

Originally Posted by Axxman300

Okay, for those new to the Conspiracy Theories section; welcome.

This is everybody's chance to watch Conspiracy Theories take shape in the public consciences in real-time.

We are only 3 days out from the event. The reports are coming in every hour, and it takes time to verify them to weed out inaccuracies, place them in context, and toss out mis-information (and there is a lot of that right now). Extremists on both sides are working overtime to control the narrative so on top of everything else the truth is cloudy at best.

Keep this in mind: Things reported today could very well be proven wrong tomorrow. CTists will hold onto every wrong report as if it was always true.

The event is being investigated by dozens of Federal agencies at this moment. Nothing is set in stone as far as chain of events, and if any single entity was behind this, or if many entities coordinated to pull this off. We will have to wait a while due to the change of Presidential Administrations which will effect every government agency including those currently investigating 1/6/21.

So be careful about what you choose as your facts.

That's fair. Additional data has come in that at least one state elected official was part of the "riot", and the FBI is investigating whether or not FDNY had current and/or former firefighters participating in the "riot".

Bubba · 9th January 2021, 07:39 PM

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf

You know that this is supposed to be a Skeptic's Forum right? Allegation without evidence were once frown on here, as were Appeals to Authority.

They are starting to eat each other, as predicted and already seen elsewhere.

Bubba · 9th January 2021, 07:41 PM

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

Until I see evidence to the contrary, I assume that the Capitol Police deliberately let the puschists through to frightened the incoming Administration into denouncing efforts to Defund the Police and instead increase their funding.
They probably didn't think it would go that far, but they sure were intentionally not doing their job.

The clueless is strong.

This thread is hilarious.

Y'all have no idea of what it is that you are watching unfold.

ChristianProgressive · 9th January 2021, 10:03 PM

Originally Posted by Bubba

The clueless is strong.

This thread is hilarious.

Y'all have no idea of what it is that you are watching unfold.

Enlighten us, then.

By the way, allegedly off-duty Washington cops and military were among the rioters.

https://news.yahoo.com/off-duty-poli...201522125.html

Resume · 9th January 2021, 10:13 PM

Originally Posted by Bubba

Y'all have no idea of what it is that you are watching unfold.

Yes, we do. Nitwit after nitwit, assorted Q-nuts, Cters, and trumpscum being apprehended, one after the other in glorious fashion. It's especially fun to see their grinning selfies juxtaposed with their mug shots. How stupid does one have to be to give the FBI and the DoJ evidence of your sedition on social media? Well, these folks are indeed as stupid as they look, or in other words, typical Q-nuts, CTers, and trumpscum.

The Great Zaganza · 9th January 2021, 10:33 PM

Originally Posted by Bubba

The clueless is strong.

This thread is hilarious.

Y'all have no idea of what it is that you are watching unfold.

yep.
The Revolution will happen, Trump will win ...

when, exactly?

2028?

Bubba · 9th January 2021, 10:37 PM

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

yep.
The Revolution will happen, Trump will win ...

when, exactly?

2028?

You've been watching and listening to the wrong channels.

Fire them

The Great Zaganza · 9th January 2021, 11:06 PM

Originally Posted by Bubba

You've been watching and listening to the wrong channels.

Fire them

and i'll be left with ... the Epochtimes?

7th January 2021, 03:27 PM	#1
ChristianProgressive Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 2,846	Business Insider: US Allies say riot had tacit support from US gov't agencies https://www.businessinsider.com/trum...2fLH_WEdmKuzgc All this could have been avoided if Obama had the spine to arrest his Treasonous ass back in 2016...smh...
	__________________ Please do your part to control the feral Conservative population. Make sure to always spay or neuter your Republican.

7th January 2021, 04:51 PM	#2
Segnosaur Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Canada, eh? Posts: 18,749	Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive Business Insider: US Allies say riot had tacit support from US gov't agencies Great... now American allies will be wary of any sort of co-operation with the U.S. law enforcement, because they won't know if the officers involved supported the riots (and overthrowing the government) or not.
	__________________ Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu We are Groot - Groot

7th January 2021, 04:56 PM	#3
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 92,102	No evidence. Only speculation by people outside the US who otherwise did not even admit to insider information, just "this looks like it to us." That's some really irresponsible reporting. Quote: Insider spoke with three officials on Thursday morning: a French police official responsible for public security in a key section of central Paris, and two intelligence officials from NATO countries who directly work in counterterrorism and counterintelligence operations involving the US, terrorism, and Russia. They said the circumstantial evidence available pointed to what would be openly called a coup attempt in any other nation.... While they did not furnish evidence that federal agency officials facilitated the chaos, ... Their observations are the same thing we all saw: Quote: "The defeated president gives a speech to a group of supporters where he tells them he was robbed of the election, denounces his own administration's members and party as traitors, and tells his supporters to storm the building where the voting is being held," the NATO intelligence official said. "The supporters, many dressed in military attire and waving revolutionary-style flags, then storm the building where the federal law-enforcement agencies controlled by the current president do not establish a security cordon, and the protesters quickly overwhelm the last line of police. "The president then makes a public statement to the supporters attacking the Capitol that he loves them but doesn't really tell them to stop," the official said. "Today I am briefing my government that we believe with a reasonable level of certainty that Donald Trump attempted a coup that failed when the system did not buckle. I get where they are coming from. But there are many things wrong with their conclusions, mainly because of the first things reported in the article: No actual evidence. Now this assessment is probably correct, but not for the reasons being stated: Quote: A law-enforcement official who trains with US forces believes someone interfered with the proper deployment of officers around Congress Incompetence and wrongly believing the right-wingers were friends of the police is a better explanation than someone actually planning to interfere with a response. This story belongs in the CT forum: it claims there was some kind of planning when there is no evidence of any such thing.
	Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 7th January 2021 at 04:58 PM.

7th January 2021, 06:04 PM	#4
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 55,476	Not nealry enough evidence.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

7th January 2021, 06:37 PM	#5
Checkmite Skepticifimisticalationist Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Gulf Coast Posts: 27,669	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger Their observations are the same thing we all saw:I get where they are coming from. But there are many things wrong with their conclusions, mainly because of the first things reported in the article: No actual evidence. There's no evidence of deliberate coordination with federal law enforcement agencies. But the visual evidence that it was a coup attempt is that it looked exactly like what a coup attempt looks like and did not look like anything else. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, leaves droppings that are identical to duck droppings, etc. Most of your objections can be summarized as "it wasn't successful", which doesn't mean it wasn't a coup. The rest of your objects (like "the military wasn't involved") are irrelevant because they're not necessary elements of a coup. Meanwhile, actual intelligence officials who deal with terrorism and things like coups as their area of expertise agree that it can be credibly called a failed coup attempt, and at least one of the sources reported that he was, in fact, briefing his government that it was exactly such a thing.
	__________________ "¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD? ¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?" --- Carlos S., 2002 Last edited by Checkmite; 7th January 2021 at 06:38 PM.

7th January 2021, 08:11 PM	#6
Checkmite Skepticifimisticalationist Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Gulf Coast Posts: 27,669	Pentagon leaders installed as part of Trump purge last month blocked DC National Guard from getting riot gear and ammunition as protesters descended on Capitol.
	__________________ "¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD? ¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?" --- Carlos S., 2002

7th January 2021, 08:39 PM	#7
Segnosaur Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Canada, eh? Posts: 18,749	Originally Posted by Checkmite Pentagon leaders installed as part of Trump purge last month blocked DC National Guard from getting riot gear and ammunition as protesters descended on Capitol. I am not trying to absolve the Pentagon (or the Trump-installed leaders), but this part of the article stuck out to me: In memos issued Monday and Tuesday in response to a request from the D.C. mayor, the Pentagon prohibited the District’s guardsmen from receiving ammunition or riot gear, interacting with protesters unless necessary for self-defense, sharing equipment with local law enforcement, or using Guard surveillance and air assets without the defense secretary’s explicit sign-off, according to officials familiar with the orders. The limits were established because the Guard hadn’t been asked to assist with crowd or riot control. ... The Capitol Police, the law enforcement force that reports to Congress and protects the House and Senate, hadn’t requested help from the Guard ahead of Wednesday’s events. The pentagon may deserve much of the blame, but it looks like the Capitol police were also partly at fault. (They could have asked for help prior to Wednesday.)
	__________________ Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu We are Groot - Groot

7th January 2021, 09:57 PM	#8
timhau NWO Litter Technician Join Date: May 2004 Location: Looks like Finland. Smells like Finland. Quacks like Finland. Where the hell am I? Posts: 14,949	Originally Posted by Segnosaur I am not trying to absolve the Pentagon (or the Trump-installed leaders), but this part of the article stuck out to me: In memos issued Monday and Tuesday in response to a request from the D.C. mayor, the Pentagon prohibited the District’s guardsmen from receiving ammunition or riot gear, interacting with protesters unless necessary for self-defense, sharing equipment with local law enforcement, or using Guard surveillance and air assets without the defense secretary’s explicit sign-off, according to officials familiar with the orders. The limits were established because the Guard hadn’t been asked to assist with crowd or riot control. ... The Capitol Police, the law enforcement force that reports to Congress and protects the House and Senate, hadn’t requested help from the Guard ahead of Wednesday’s events. The pentagon may deserve much of the blame, but it looks like the Capitol police were also partly at fault. (They could have asked for help prior to Wednesday.) I wonder what the normal procedure is. Are te Capitol police used to immediate cooperation?
	__________________ When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord, in his wisdom, doesn't work that way. I just stole one and asked Him to forgive me. - Emo Philips

7th January 2021, 10:56 PM	#9
Checkmite Skepticifimisticalationist Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Gulf Coast Posts: 27,669	Originally Posted by timhau I wonder what the normal procedure is. Are te Capitol police used to immediate cooperation? My impression was that the various individual law enforcement agencies across DC had some kind of arrangement or rules in place where calls for assistance could be made and responded to very quickly if a situation suddenly developed. I mean, that's just common sense. But either I'm wrong, OR the sudden limitations on the National Guard were an abnormal change of policy.
	__________________ "¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD? ¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?" --- Carlos S., 2002

7th January 2021, 10:58 PM	#10
The Great Zaganza Maledictorian Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 18,040	it's another case of people in government being conditioned over the last four years not to do anything that would put them in direct opposition to 45.
	__________________ "When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me." - Emo Philips

7th January 2021, 11:58 PM	#11
Hlafordlaes Disorder of Kilopi Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: State of Flux Posts: 16,858	Infinite lollipops for Whine boys, forever and ever more, thank White Jesus. That's all you need to explain today's GOP, US "conservative" "culture", the Confederacy then and now, and the near-immediate attempt today to blame the destruction evidently and openly caused by Whine boys on Jan 6... on others. I mean, how lame and spineless can you get? Momma's skirt, please house the Proud Boys until this blows over. Po' little patriots just wanted to save their divine right to a leg up, c'mon.
	__________________ His real name is Count Douchenozzle von Stenchfahrter und Lichtendicks. - shemp

8th January 2021, 01:46 AM	#12
ChristianProgressive Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 2,846	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger This story belongs in the CT forum: it claims there was some kind of planning when there is no evidence of any such thing. Oh, really? https://www.propublica.org/article/c...=pocket-newtab Like one of the (French, IIRC) Sources from the original article said, this isn't rocket science. and it isn't the Captal Police's first rodeo, as the BLM protests proved. There's also the issue of why the early requests for the NG were denied at high levels. Is there smoking gun proof? Arguably not. But there IS plenty of evidence and the conclusions in the original article are valid ones for any observer to draw, esp intel observers. You're making the same "mistake" that the Left and the rest of the nation did prior to Jan.6. Refusing to see the signs until it was almost too late.
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8th January 2021, 01:48 AM	#13
ChristianProgressive Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 2,846	Originally Posted by timhau I wonder what the normal procedure is. Are te Capitol police used to immediate cooperation? Look at what happened at the BLM protests. Look at what happened at Lafeyette Park just before the photo op. Look at what happened in cities all over the US all summer. The notion that the government capable of pulling off a show of force that well put together suddenly botched it? Laughable.
	__________________ Please do your part to control the feral Conservative population. Make sure to always spay or neuter your Republican.

8th January 2021, 01:57 AM	#14
The Great Zaganza Maledictorian Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 18,040	Until I see evidence to the contrary, I assume that the Capitol Police deliberately let the puschists through to frightened the incoming Administration into denouncing efforts to Defund the Police and instead increase their funding. They probably didn't think it would go that far, but they sure were intentionally not doing their job.
	__________________ "When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me." - Emo Philips

8th January 2021, 06:12 AM	#15
uke2se Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 14,240	Add it to the list of things to investigate once the Fascists are out of power. Should probably be a priority, though.
	__________________ Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list. "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1

8th January 2021, 02:03 PM	#16
Hlafordlaes Disorder of Kilopi Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: State of Flux Posts: 16,858	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger ... This story belongs in the CT forum: it claims there was some kind of planning when there is no evidence of any such thing. The most damning claim I see in the article is this, from a French official: Quote: "You cannot tell me I don't know what they should have done. I can fly to Washington tomorrow and do that job, just as any police official in Washington can fly to Paris and do mine," the official said. The official directs public security in a central Paris police district filled with government buildings and tourist sites. "These are not subtle principles" for managing demonstrations, "and they transfer to every situation," the official said. "This is why we train alongside the US federal law enforcement to handle these very matters, and it's obvious that large parts of any successful plan were just ignored." Italics mine. Even to the untrained eye, there was a very noticeable lack of any sort of credible protection for foreseeable circumstances. The claim is that there are standard protocols that others can see were not followed, ones that they also train with US personnel in performing, so ignorance cannot be claimed, only failure to implement. I smell a rat, call it conspiracy or not, but something isn't right. That some Capitol Police were reportedly allowing themselves to appear in selfies inside the building with the terrorists would be at minimum an indication there were no standing orders for the protest in place. It would also seem to indicate there were no protocols for handling unauthorized personnel in the building, which is a known falsehood. Therefore, somebody stood down. Purposefully. Lone rat? A few rats, here and there? Any Big Cheeses? We shall see.
	__________________ His real name is Count Douchenozzle von Stenchfahrter und Lichtendicks. - shemp

8th January 2021, 05:00 PM	#17
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 92,102	Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes The most damning claim I see in the article is this, from a French official: Italics mine. Even to the untrained eye, there was a very noticeable lack of any sort of credible protection for foreseeable circumstances. The claim is that there are standard protocols that others can see were not followed, ones that they also train with US personnel in performing, so ignorance cannot be claimed, only failure to implement. I smell a rat, call it conspiracy or not, but something isn't right. That some Capitol Police were reportedly allowing themselves to appear in selfies inside the building with the terrorists would be at minimum an indication there were no standing orders for the protest in place. It would also seem to indicate there were no protocols for handling unauthorized personnel in the building, which is a known falsehood. Therefore, somebody stood down. Purposefully. Lone rat? A few rats, here and there? Any Big Cheeses? We shall see. Do we have any evidence yet there was any kind of central planning here? It is not contained in the article I responded to. NONE! Since that time articles have surfaced that riot equipment was denied to the DC National Guard by the civilian leaders of the Pentagon. We need some more pieces here. When was that denial: for this event or close to it? Because all national guard troops aren't given a lot of weapons? Months ago because ignorant Trump has slashed budgets right and left? Is there any evidence anything was coordinated? Not yet. Are Trump and these Pentagon decision makers interacting with the 4Chan, Parler or whichever relevant sites? Why no whistleblowers? Surely there is someone who would report this, like the men/women on the front lines? A call to the papers, "Hey, we are expecting a potentially dangerous Trump supporter rally and our bosses aren't giving us what we need"? This is where the thread starts belonging over in the CT subforum. What is a classic deficiency in a lot of these CTs: No way it could have happened without lots and lots of people knowing about it. And if a lot of people knew about it, how is it no one has blown the whistle? OTOH, incompetence and racism underestimating the 'police-friendly" rioters does check all the boxes. Yes, we will see.
	Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 8th January 2021 at 05:02 PM.

8th January 2021, 05:02 PM	#18
Mader Levap Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 1,576	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger OTOH, incompetence underestimating the 'police-friendly" rioters does check all the boxes. Deny, minimize. You know you are rubbing elbows with cool crowd, right?
	__________________ Sanity is overrated. / Voting for Republicans is morally equivalent to voting for Nazis in early 30's.

8th January 2021, 05:56 PM	#19
PhantomWolf Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 21,203	Originally Posted by Mader Levap Deny, minimize. You know you are rubbing elbows with cool crowd, right? You know that this is supposed to be a Skeptic's Forum right? Allegation without evidence were once frown on here, as were Appeals to Authority.
	__________________ It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)

8th January 2021, 07:35 PM	#20
Mumbles Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 8,726	Please. The women's march, like most others, were warned not to bring signs on posts, due to the potential of them being confused for weapons. Racism can explain the wild overreaction we often see to black people protesting nonviolently, but it definitely does not explain flatly ignoring the white, wealthy goons openly planning violence on common internet platforms - especially when even a hotel said "Yeah, we're closed for this event, we don't need you knuckleheads staying here again, like you did twice since the election. Get out." enough competent pros involved have said "We asked for more security, upper levels denied it" to tell you that someone was, at best, gleefully and willfully negligent.
Mumbles Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 8,726	Last edited by Mumbles; 8th January 2021 at 07:36 PM.

8th January 2021, 08:50 PM	#21
ChristianProgressive Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 2,846	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger Why no whistleblowers? Surely there is someone who would report this, like the men/women on the front lines? A call to the papers, "Hey, we are expecting a potentially dangerous Trump supporter rally and our bosses aren't giving us what we need"? 1) Arugument from Credulity fallacy. 2) People keep secrets all the time. Especially in organizations with a strong component of secrecy Whistleblowing is actually quite rare. That's why we had to pass special laws to encourage and protect those who do. And even then "snitching" or "ratting" carries a high price. Just ask people like Vinderman, or the woman in Florida who exposed Gov. DeSatan's cooking of the COVID data. Or the women who came forward and talked about ICE's Crimes Against Humanity in their concentration camps.
	__________________ Please do your part to control the feral Conservative population. Make sure to always spay or neuter your Republican.

8th January 2021, 08:53 PM	#22
ChristianProgressive Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 2,846	Originally Posted by PhantomWolf You know that this is supposed to be a Skeptic's Forum right? Allegation without evidence were once frown on here, as were Appeals to Authority. Since there is plenty of evidence, that's not a problem.
	__________________ Please do your part to control the feral Conservative population. Make sure to always spay or neuter your Republican.

8th January 2021, 09:21 PM	#23
PhantomWolf Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 21,203	Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive Since there is plenty of evidence, that's not a problem. So far I have seen more evidence that the Democrats stole the Election than I have that this was a coordinated coup attempt involving federal departments.
	__________________ It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)

8th January 2021, 10:53 PM	#24
Hlafordlaes Disorder of Kilopi Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: State of Flux Posts: 16,858	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger Do we have any evidence yet there was any kind of central planning here? It is not contained in the article I responded to. NONE! I did not claim that. The article did not claim that. Yet some form of like-minded reaction occurred which cannot be dismissed by hand-waving. A thorough and proper investigation is needed (i.e., no ring-kissing Republicans defending royal whim). Bold and highlights are no substitute for rational argument.
	__________________ His real name is Count Douchenozzle von Stenchfahrter und Lichtendicks. - shemp

8th January 2021, 10:55 PM	#25
Hlafordlaes Disorder of Kilopi Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: State of Flux Posts: 16,858	Originally Posted by PhantomWolf So far I have seen more evidence that the Democrats stole the Election than I have that this was a coordinated coup attempt involving federal departments. So far, no investigation, so duh. But the quisling attempt at yet establishing some form of equivalence is noted.
	__________________ His real name is Count Douchenozzle von Stenchfahrter und Lichtendicks. - shemp

9th January 2021, 01:22 AM	#26
Kaylee Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 4,280	I'm surprised and disappointed that this thread was moved to the Conspiracy forum. The article seems credible and the Business Insider has a high factual reporting score per mediabiascheckfacts.com. Recall that less than 2 weeks after the presidential election Trump "carried out sweeping changes atop the Defense Department's civilian leadership structure, removing several of its most senior officials and replacing them with perceived loyalists to the President." It was reported on the 6th that help did not arrive until more than 2 hours after it was requested by the US Capital Police and the help was delayed by the Pentagon. IMHO, the fact that Trump changed the leadership structure in the Pentagon in November helps prove premeditation to commit sedition. Any other president upon losing reelection would be focused on tying up loose ends, not thinking about replacing key staff at the Pentagon. Links for the above are in a similar post I wrote in another thread.
Kaylee Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 4,280

9th January 2021, 06:00 AM	#27
ChristianProgressive Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 2,846	Originally Posted by PhantomWolf So far I have seen more evidence that the Democrats stole the Election than I have that this was a coordinated coup attempt involving federal departments. Additional evidence has surfaced and been documented, such as photos of "rioters" with large bundles of police-grade flex cuffs. This was planned and at least elements of the government were in on it.
	__________________ Please do your part to control the feral Conservative population. Make sure to always spay or neuter your Republican.

9th January 2021, 06:01 AM	#28
ChristianProgressive Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 2,846	Originally Posted by Kaylee I'm surprised and disappointed that this thread was moved to the Conspiracy forum. The article seems credible and the Business Insider has a high factual reporting score per mediabiascheckfacts.com. I'm sad too. This board has it's biases though, and you get used to it, I suppose after awhile.
	__________________ Please do your part to control the feral Conservative population. Make sure to always spay or neuter your Republican.

9th January 2021, 07:38 AM	#29
Wolrab Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 4,812	Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive Additional evidence has surfaced and been documented, such as photos of "rioters" with large bundles of police-grade flex cuffs. This was planned and at least elements of the government were in on it. Damn, smoking gun! Unless there was a sale: https://www.handcuffwarehouse.com/di...le-restraints/
Wolrab Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 4,812	__________________ "Such reports are usually based on the sighting of something the sighters cannot explain and that they (or someone else on their behalf) explain as representing an interstellar spaceship-often by saying "But what else can it be?" as though thier own ignorance is a decisive factor." Isaac Asimov

9th January 2021, 09:29 AM	#30
Mader Levap Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 1,576	Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive Additional evidence has surfaced and been documented, such as photos of "rioters" with large bundles of police-grade flex cuffs. This was planned Yes... Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive and at least elements of the government were in on it. ...but you can get this equipment elsewhere. So no, merely having cuffs is not evidence you need.
	__________________ Sanity is overrated. / Voting for Republicans is morally equivalent to voting for Nazis in early 30's.

9th January 2021, 01:34 PM	#31
Axxman300 Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Central California Coast Posts: 6,193	Okay, for those new to the Conspiracy Theories section; welcome. This is everybody's chance to watch Conspiracy Theories take shape in the public consciences in real-time. We are only 3 days out from the event. The reports are coming in every hour, and it takes time to verify them to weed out inaccuracies, place them in context, and toss out mis-information (and there is a lot of that right now). Extremists on both sides are working overtime to control the narrative so on top of everything else the truth is cloudy at best. Keep this in mind: Things reported today could very well be proven wrong tomorrow. CTists will hold onto every wrong report as if it was always true. The event is being investigated by dozens of Federal agencies at this moment. Nothing is set in stone as far as chain of events, and if any single entity was behind this, or if many entities coordinated to pull this off. We will have to wait a while due to the change of Presidential Administrations which will effect every government agency including those currently investigating 1/6/21. So be careful about what you choose as your facts.
	__________________ Disingenuous Piranha

9th January 2021, 06:02 PM	#32
ChristianProgressive Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 2,846	Originally Posted by Wolrab Damn, smoking gun! Unless there was a sale: https://www.handcuffwarehouse.com/di...le-restraints/ Originally Posted by Mader Levap Yes... ...but you can get this equipment elsewhere. So no, merely having cuffs is not evidence you need. It's not by itself smoking gun proof, no, but it does show that this was a planned event and people spent time getting ready to do it. From there you have the additional data points that: There was open chatter on various fora for weeks planning the action. People showed up to the event in identity concealing masks/clothes wearing tactical body armor. The NG was denied authority to gear up and stand by in case of a mass disturbance by their chain of command. Capital Police utterly failed to provide more than a token cordon around the building where they ringed the place with thousands of heavily armed officers for far less violent BLM protesters just months prior. Elements of the Capital Police actively stood aside and allowed the rioters through the police lines. Some even posed for selfies with the rioters. Foreign intelligence officials, who are trained to "read the tea leaves" were so conceerned that they took the nearly unprecidented step of going public with their fears to a major media outlet. That's a pretty strong case, and it's bullflop to dismiss it as "conspiracy theory".
	__________________ Please do your part to control the feral Conservative population. Make sure to always spay or neuter your Republican.

9th January 2021, 06:05 PM	#33
ChristianProgressive Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 2,846	Originally Posted by Axxman300 Okay, for those new to the Conspiracy Theories section; welcome. This is everybody's chance to watch Conspiracy Theories take shape in the public consciences in real-time. We are only 3 days out from the event. The reports are coming in every hour, and it takes time to verify them to weed out inaccuracies, place them in context, and toss out mis-information (and there is a lot of that right now). Extremists on both sides are working overtime to control the narrative so on top of everything else the truth is cloudy at best. Keep this in mind: Things reported today could very well be proven wrong tomorrow. CTists will hold onto every wrong report as if it was always true. The event is being investigated by dozens of Federal agencies at this moment. Nothing is set in stone as far as chain of events, and if any single entity was behind this, or if many entities coordinated to pull this off. We will have to wait a while due to the change of Presidential Administrations which will effect every government agency including those currently investigating 1/6/21. So be careful about what you choose as your facts. That's fair. Additional data has come in that at least one state elected official was part of the "riot", and the FBI is investigating whether or not FDNY had current and/or former firefighters participating in the "riot".
	__________________ Please do your part to control the feral Conservative population. Make sure to always spay or neuter your Republican.

9th January 2021, 07:39 PM	#34
Bubba Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2014 Posts: 6,387	Originally Posted by PhantomWolf You know that this is supposed to be a Skeptic's Forum right? Allegation without evidence were once frown on here, as were Appeals to Authority. They are starting to eat each other, as predicted and already seen elsewhere.
Bubba Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2014 Posts: 6,387

9th January 2021, 07:41 PM	#35
Bubba Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2014 Posts: 6,387	Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza Until I see evidence to the contrary, I assume that the Capitol Police deliberately let the puschists through to frightened the incoming Administration into denouncing efforts to Defund the Police and instead increase their funding. They probably didn't think it would go that far, but they sure were intentionally not doing their job. The clueless is strong. This thread is hilarious. Y'all have no idea of what it is that you are watching unfold.
Bubba Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2014 Posts: 6,387