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Old 12th February 2022, 11:11 AM   #1
bruto
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Money/inequalities - Part 4

I think perhaps our far-flung correspondent does not understand entirely what constitutes a "non profit organization." Plenty of such organizations include the kind of people he doesn't like, and plenty pay their participants very well. A non-profit organization simply does not send its proceeds to an owner, but either holds them, pays it all out to its employees, or (in the best case) increases the scope of its services. Many non profits invest their proceeds in profit-making enterprises, and use the income therefrom to fund their operations. A church can use it to buy golden candlesticks.

Non profit organizations are very good, and I do not want to disparage the good ones in any way. Outfits like Doctors Without Borders and Direct Relief really do what they say they're doing. But "non profit" is largely a matter of how an organization is or is not taxed.

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Old 12th February 2022, 11:35 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I think perhaps our far-flung correspondent does not understand entirely what constitutes a "non profit organization." Plenty of such organizations include the kind of people he doesn't like, and plenty pay their participants very well. A non-profit organization simply does not send its proceeds to an owner, but either holds them, pays it all out to its employees, or (in the best case) increases the scope of its services. Many non profits invest their proceeds in profit-making enterprises, and use the income therefrom to fund their operations. A church can use it to buy golden candlesticks.

Non profit organizations are very good, and I do not want to disparage the good ones in any way. Outfits like Doctors Without Borders and Direct Relief really do what they say they're doing. But "non profit" is largely a matter of how an organization is or is not taxed.
Heck, some of the stuff his herbalist or naturalist give him may be produced by the pharmaceutical companies he thinks is poisoning everyone.

Many herbal products made by Big Pharma


The Link Between Big Pharma and the Supplement Industry
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Old 15th February 2022, 11:47 PM   #3
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Oh, by the way, too late to edit, I made an error in my guinea worm post above. It appears that only about three and a half million people per year got guinea worm disease in 1986, not ten million.

The disease is relatively short term, as it involves a worm that embeds itself in one's body but eventually, we hope, emerges, but the consequences can be debilitating, especially from infection, which has historically led to the death of about one percent of people who get it. And I bet the best treatment for that infection is something a bit more than a vitamin pill.
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Old 17th February 2022, 04:01 AM   #4
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Mod Warning
This thread is in Economics, Business and Finance, and according to the OP is supposed to be about money.

That means the economic considerations about money - NOT the religious considerations, which belong in Religion and Philosophy

It has nothing to do with Covid-19 vaccinations

It has nothing to do with claims that the CIA controls everything, which would belong in Conspiracy Theories

Posts on these subjects are likely to be off-topic and rule 11 violations. And if posted in this thread will end up belonging in AAH

Edited by jimbob:  We'll be clearing up this thread shortly

Responding to this mod box in thread will be off topic Posted By:jimbob
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Old 17th February 2022, 09:43 AM   #5
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Right. So, back to money. How, o wise one, will the necessities of international trade be accomplished without some token of value (what we call money) to avoid the unimaginable complexity of free, local exchange.

Back we go to the real world. Here in the real world, I have a car. My car, made in Korea out of a huge number of individual parts by a large number of people, needs new brake rotors. Well, actually it doesn't any more, because like the capitalist fool I am, i went to the auto parts store and took some money out of my wallet and bought them. This seemed like a more efficient and more likely-to-succeed strategy, rather than telling the people in the store that they should give me the rotors, and trust that someone else will bring them supper, and someone else will pump out their septic tanks gratis, etc.

They, in turn, paid money to the distributor, rather than expecting the distributor to hand them over, trusting that someone, somewhere, would out of the goodness of their heart, feed their employees, and fill the delivery driver's van with free fuel, etc.

The distributor paid money to the shipper, rather than expecting that the shipper would find that the Panama Canal had become free, and the usual million dollar fee for his container ship waived, because people come to the canal to drive the locomotives and pull the cables and run the locks trusting that someone, somewhere, will pay their rent and feed their children and teach them to read, etc. etc.

The shipper paid money to the manufacturer in China, who used it to insure that someone would actually make and deliver the hugely expensive milling machines required to do the job, and that the person who runs those machines will turn up in the morning, and so on and so on.

So now: let us imagine that all these things could be done, in an ideal world, without money. Just with everybody trusting everybody else on the entire earth to provide all we need fairly and promptly. Let us, no matter how silly that is, stipulate that for the moment.

The big question now is: how long do you realistically expect such a transition to take, and what does one do in the mean time to prevent holdouts, contrarians, unbelievers and just plain criminals and rat-bastard egotists, from messing it up and causing mass shortages and starvation?

This is a question you've been put to before, with little satisfaction. Let's reset. Try again. Forget for the moment whether what you propose has merit in the abstract. Let us pretend it does. How do you make it work? Don't go off on a tangent about the philosophical rightness of it, or the corruption of current ways, or any of that stuff. Stick to the single question:

HOW DO YOU MAKE IT WORK?
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Old 23rd February 2022, 03:12 PM   #6
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I should point out, by the way, that any non-monetary solution to the problem must address the issue of economy of scale.

The system whereby something like those brake rotors can be delivered to my local store for $30 apiece depends mightily on an economy of scale that cannot be duplicated by another system. In theory it might be duplicated by making everything free, but it would break down critically if any one of its components were to go awry. The system still has to work. A dramatic demonstration of this is the degree to which the supply chain of the whole world was messed up by the grounding of single ship in the Suez canal, and again by the dearth of dock workers during the Covid pandemic.

That ship that pays a million dollars to pass through the Panama Canal can do so because it has mind-bogglingly huge cargo. The cost per item is negligible. You can buy a DVD Player at Wal-mart for pocket change, because every cost in its passage from China to here is fractionalized by bulk. It seems incredible that it should cost that much to run a container ship from China through the Canal to Georgia or wherever. But the cost of doing this for each individual item is pennies. You can't do this any other way.

It's not enough to philosophize about how wonderful things would be if we didn't need money. It might well be, but it cannot be done in a hunter-gatherer economy. It has to work for the way things are right now.
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Old 23rd February 2022, 03:46 PM   #7
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Thanks Bruto.

There might actually be mileage in this topic after all
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OECD healthcare spending
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https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt

Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK
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Old 1st May 2022, 07:12 PM   #8
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Money is a tool of the devil because all human beings want to be paid the highest price for their work and to pay the lowest possible price for the work of others. To be fair is to do to others what you want them to do to you is to love your neighbor as yourself, so if you are just you should pay the maximum for the work of others and be paid the minimum for your work, it is in this sense that I say that money is the tool of the devil because it puts you in a situation of injustice, it is tempting. To abolish money is to take away a tool from the devil, it is to take away the weapon from the killer.
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Old 1st May 2022, 11:19 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Money is a tool of the devil because all human beings want to be paid the highest price for their work and to pay the lowest possible price for the work of others. To be fair is to do to others what you want them to do to you is to love your neighbor as yourself, so if you are just you should pay the maximum for the work of others and be paid the minimum for your work, it is in this sense that I say that money is the tool of the devil because it puts you in a situation of injustice, it is tempting. To abolish money is to take away a tool from the devil, it is to take away the weapon from the killer.
So off we go on the expected reset, right to the beginning again. If what you say about human nature is true, the abolition of money will have the opposite effect. A person who wants the maximum reward for work and the minimum price for goods will be greedy with or without money. Without the need for money, there is no incentive for giving away work. The person you hypothesize as a representative of human nature will demand maximum service and provide minimum service in exchange. That's the human nature you yourself picture. It's the economy not of peace and cooperation, but of warlords and slaves. We have had warlords and slaves throughout much of our history and even today, but we have not all had to be one or the other.

Money, or some equivalent of it, does the exact opposite of reinforcing that evil behavior. The person who wishes to extract the maximum from others while providing nothing in return cannot do so. Sure, there are inequalities and problems in this as in all economic systems. But essentially this is a problem not of money but of human nature and of how money is made and distributed, not of what it is.

People being what they are, things will never be perfect or even that close. But fungible means of exchange (aka money) provide a way for commerce to become more than the local transactions of hunter-gatherer societies. If people of my tribe need arrowheads that cannot be made locally, they buy them from someone who makes them, and they do not need to trust them or know them, or break bread, nor do they have to provide the exact thing the flint miners might need. They pay, and the thing that is trusted is the medium, not the messenger. The flint miners might not need what my tribe can offer, but rather the tools that another tribe makes, and they pay with the money we provided. The tool makers might then take that money and buy grain from my tribe, and so forth. Any economy that goes much beyond that of a troop of baboons needs a fungible means of exchange.

In the absence of money or its equivalent, power will simply accrue to the strongest and meanest rather than to the richest. For any economy to work in a reliable way there must be not only some means of balancing consumption and production, but of insuring that it happens in a timely way.

Even if you were right in your basic philosophy, and even if somehow eventually it could be made to work it would be useless if billions of people starved to death while the kinks were being worked out.

Your idea is pie in the sky, an idea that requires, essentially, a reset of history itself, back to the paleolithic age, where the wise sage Gaetan says "now don't be tempted to invent money." It's too late. It's been around too long. You can invent, or propose, all sorts of better ways to do things, and God knows there's plenty of call for that, but you can't reboot the story of mankind.
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Old 2nd May 2022, 08:01 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Money is a tool of the devil because all human beings want to be paid the highest price for their work and to pay the lowest possible price for the work of others.
Again, simply not true for "all human beings", as many here have already related. That it is evidently what you want just makes you "a tool of the devil" and not money or, necessarily, anyone else.


Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
To be fair is to do to others what you want them to do to you is to love your neighbor as yourself,
I simply want a prevailing wage, so by paying a prevailing wage I'm fair by your stated standard.

Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
so if you are just you should pay the maximum for the work of others and be paid the minimum for your work,
That's not "just" that's just expressing your same unfair expectation above with you getting paid the minimum and your neighbor the maximum. Since even you are someone's neighbor it is the same as the unfair above. With someone getting the maximum and their neighbor getting the minimum. So if this is "just", as you assert, then your above "tool of the devil because all human beings want" assertion is likewise "just" in that same regard.


Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
it is in this sense that I say that money is the tool of the devil because it puts you in a situation of injustice, it is tempting. To abolish money is to take away a tool from the devil, it is to take away the weapon from the killer.
As shown above the injustice is simply yours. If you think getting rid of money will change you then stop using it. However, since greed and injustice aren't inherently an aspects of money or even some people, the source then of your greed and injustice, as asserted above, can only be you.
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Old 2nd May 2022, 01:09 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Money is a tool of the devil because all human beings want to be paid the highest price for their work and to pay the lowest possible price for the work of others. To be fair is to do to others what you want them to do to you is to love your neighbor as yourself, so if you are just you should pay the maximum for the work of others and be paid the minimum for your work, it is in this sense that I say that money is the tool of the devil because it puts you in a situation of injustice, it is tempting. To abolish money is to take away a tool from the devil, it is to take away the weapon from the killer.
Wibbly bibbly, bipperty boo.
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Old 2nd May 2022, 03:18 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by The Man View Post
Again, simply not true for "all human beings", as many here have already related. That it is evidently what you want just makes you "a tool of the devil" and not money or, necessarily, anyone else.




I simply want a prevailing wage, so by paying a prevailing wage I'm fair by your stated standard.



That's not "just" that's just expressing your same unfair expectation above with you getting paid the minimum and your neighbor the maximum. Since even you are someone's neighbor it is the same as the unfair above. With someone getting the maximum and their neighbor getting the minimum. So if this is "just", as you assert, then your above "tool of the devil because all human beings want" assertion is likewise "just" in that same regard.




As shown above the injustice is simply yours. If you think getting rid of money will change you then stop using it. However, since greed and injustice aren't inherently an aspects of money or even some people, the source then of your greed and injustice, as asserted above, can only be you.
You want to be paid the max for your work and to pay the minimum for the work of your neighbour, to say the opposite is a lie.
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Old 2nd May 2022, 03:22 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
You want to be paid the max for your work and to pay the minimum for the work of your neighbour, to say the opposite is a lie.
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Old 2nd May 2022, 04:38 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
You want to be paid the max for your work and to pay the minimum for the work of your neighbour, to say the opposite is a lie.
No it isn't, heck, I don't even know what the maximum for my line of work is and don't care. As already explained to you, for work I pay for I often pay a premium for premium service and to help support not just the industries I utilize but my community and the people in it. This is often even for work that I can easily do myself. Again, you are the one who want's to be paid the maximum yet pay the minimum. While certainly there may be others like you there are also certainly others like me. As some here have indicated. Why are you so at ease with being, what you claim to be, unjust and expecting all others must be likewise?
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Old 3rd May 2022, 07:52 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by The Man View Post
No it isn't, heck, I don't even know what the maximum for my line of work is and don't care. As already explained to you, for work I paertainly there may be others like you there are also certainly others like me. As some here have indicated. Why are you so at ease with being, what you claim to be, unjust and expecting all others must be likewise?
You work for watching people on discussion forum for your governement, Bush and Obama put your service on line to protect the interest of the richest.

Mod Warning Please desist from chopping other members quotes without indicating you have done so. Especially when the result may be misleading.
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Old 3rd May 2022, 08:16 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
You work for watching people on discussion forum for your governement, Bush and Obama put your service on line to protect the interest of the richest.
Nope, I work in robotics. Automated material handling systems to be specific.

Again, I've actually known rich people, been offered jobs by them, and have no interest in them.

Regardless of where I work I expect a prevailing wage and I pay the (very few) people I have do work for me a prevailing wage or better. You're the one who want's the maximum while paying the minimum.

What work do you do such that you are so at ease with being, what you claim to be, unjust and expecting all others must be likewise?
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Old 3rd May 2022, 01:38 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
You work for watching people on discussion forum for your governement, Bush and Obama put your service on line to protect the interest of the richest.
Bip bip bip bim, poo.
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Old 4th May 2022, 05:26 AM   #18
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Old 6th May 2022, 02:49 PM   #19
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This is obvious nonsense by this point. Either Geatan is a seriously ill individual, and as such we are wasting our time, or he's a particularly elaborate troll, in which case we are wasting our time.

Enjoy yourself in your own paranoid fantasy land Gaetan. We aren't the CIA and you know we aren't.
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Old 6th May 2022, 08:01 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
This is obvious nonsense by this point. Either Geatan is a seriously ill individual, and as such we are wasting our time, or he's a particularly elaborate troll, in which case we are wasting our time.

Enjoy yourself in your own paranoid fantasy land Gaetan. We aren't the CIA and you know we aren't.
the mafia wouldn't make a profit if it didn't have pimps
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Old 6th May 2022, 09:44 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
the mafia wouldn't make a profit if it didn't have pimps
And Putin wouldn't get away with war crimes if he didn't have stooges. No news there.
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Old 7th May 2022, 01:47 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
the mafia wouldn't make a profit if it didn't have pimps
A shingle beach is comfier to walk on than pebbles, but less so than sand.
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Old 7th May 2022, 03:12 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
You want to be paid the max for your work and to pay the minimum for the work of your neighbour, to say the opposite is a lie.
You keep telling us this over and over. You think people just want to take, take, take as much as they can and give nothing in return. And your Big Idea is that we should just let them.

What part of that idea is not crazy?
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Old 7th May 2022, 08:10 AM   #24
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Yes but you don't want to try new things, let's abolish money durind one year and if it doen't work we'll put the old money system back on. How would you know if we don't try if it doesn't work we can always back off.
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Old 7th May 2022, 09:34 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by The Man View Post
What work do you do such that you are so at ease with being, what you claim to be, unjust and expecting all others must be likewise?
Russian troll bot?
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Old 7th May 2022, 09:56 AM   #26
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Let's just jump off the cliff one time and if it doesn't work out we'll just jump back up again.
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Old 7th May 2022, 02:47 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Yes but you don't want to try new things, let's abolish money durind one year and if it doen't work we'll put the old money system back on. How would you know if we don't try if it doesn't work we can always back off.
That is not a practical idea, and would not be even if your basic idea had merit. This is a hugely complex project that would take many years to perfect. The immediate effect would much more likely be that not only the lazy and criminal elements, but those that have truly been opporessed and marginalized, will see an advantage to taking without giving. You can't back off if the result of the experiment is (as I think most would agree is likely) a worldwide famine and a surge in hoarding, greed, crime and enslavement.

I have a comparable idea. We all know electric cars are the wave of the future and a better idea. So I propose that, starting tomorrow, we ban all gasoline for the next year.
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Old 7th May 2022, 03:12 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Yes but you don't want to try new things, let's abolish money durind one year and if it doen't work we'll put the old money system back on. How would you know if we don't try if it doesn't work we can always back off.
Again, it's not a 'new thing' money didn't exist until people needed it. Indications are that money was used for other things and began being used for commercial trade later and that concepts like credit and debt predate such use of money. Heck, we all start our lives without access or use of money.

Some, as you have asserted, will still want the maximum while giving the minimum. So one's neighbor (or oneself as the neighbor) will still get screwed over, it's just in every other way instead of monetarily. Again, the problem isn't money itself, the problem is just that some people have no qualms about screwing over their neighbor.
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Old 7th May 2022, 03:40 PM   #29
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Quote:
the problem is just that some people have no qualms about screwing over their neighbor.
If you have a system that makes it easy to do that like money it is worse.
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Old 7th May 2022, 03:55 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
If you have a system that makes it easy to do that like money it is worse.
Your idea is a system which *is* worse. Massively worse.

You don't just want to abolish money (making trade horribly inefficient) you want to abolish trade. You want people to just take what they want. Forget property rights. Just take. Take all you want. Give back as much or as little as you want.

That *is* your plan, isn't it? Or have you realised it's nuts?
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Old 7th May 2022, 04:08 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Your idea is a system which *is* worse. Massively worse.

You don't just want to abolish money (making trade horribly inefficient) you want to abolish trade.
I don't abolish trade, it just makes it easy as you don't have a system to track money since it doesn't exist any more.
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Old 7th May 2022, 04:19 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
If you have a system that makes it easy to do that like money it is worse.
Again, it is not the system that makes it easy it is simply the willingness of the people to screw over their neighbors.
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Old 7th May 2022, 04:21 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by The Man View Post
Again, it is not the system that makes it easy it is simply the willingness of the people to screw over their neighbors.
Exactly the system of money is a system to screw your neighbours
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Old 7th May 2022, 04:22 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
I don't abolish trade, it just makes it easy as you don't have a system to track money since it doesn't exist any more.
No, lacking a common system for valuation just makes trade harder and makes it easier for people to get screwed over in such trades.
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Old 7th May 2022, 04:26 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Exactly the system of money is a system to screw your neighbours
Again, it's people that do the screwing over not the system and people can screw each other over in any system. Particularly, not having a system just screws everyone.

ETA: Heck, in another company I worked for, me and another employee each gave up part of our pay to another worker whom we felt wasn't getting a fair shake. Again, it not the system that does the screwing, it's the people.
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Old 8th May 2022, 06:13 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by The Man View Post
Again, it's people that do the screwing over not the system and people can screw each other over in any system.
That's people who screws their neighbour but if you have a system of money that makes it easy it is worse. Who is the judge of the price of goods? As you have wealth and poverty it is a proof of the inequalities of the system and that such system doesn't work. If Gates got billions of dollars, he got it by stealing of customer, the money system is a system that allows it. The system of gift is a better system because it is voluntary, you work on what you want and you benefit of the work your neighbour wanted to do, nobody gets screw up. In a system of money you are a slave, good if you like what you do and make enough money but for the majority of people this is not the case, you do what you can, not what you want.

Last edited by Gaetan; 8th May 2022 at 06:28 AM.
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Old 8th May 2022, 07:04 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
That's people who screws their neighbour but if you have a system of money that makes it easy it is worse. Who is the judge of the price of goods? As you have wealth and poverty it is a proof of the inequalities of the system and that such system doesn't work. If Gates got billions of dollars, he got it by stealing of customer, the money system is a system that allows it. The system of gift is a better system because it is voluntary, you work on what you want and you benefit of the work your neighbour wanted to do, nobody gets screw up. In a system of money you are a slave, good if you like what you do and make enough money but for the majority of people this is not the case, you do what you can, not what you want.

So, if I’m understanding this, the basic idea is you can’t lose if no one keeps score?

That’s as bit…ignorant.


No, sorry, that’s a lot ignorant.


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Old 8th May 2022, 07:32 AM   #38
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Your system is just as bad, if not worse. In real life, I need a resource to acquire a $100,000 car. In your fantasy, I don't.
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Old 8th May 2022, 07:44 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
That's people who screws their neighbour but if you have a system of money that makes it easy it is worse. Who is the judge of the price of goods?
Nope. In your system where everything is free, I can simply take all the grain for free, stockpile it, and force you to beg me for it. I can then demand you do what I command. No money involved.

Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
As you have wealth and poverty it is a proof of the inequalities of the system and that such system doesn't work.
It works a lot better than the nonsense you are proposing.
Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
If Gates got billions of dollars, he got it by stealing of customer, the money system is a system that allows it.
If Bill Gates is not getting paid for his products, then he has no customers.

Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
The system of gift is a better system because it is voluntary, you work on what you want and you benefit of the work your neighbour wanted to do, nobody gets screw up.
I volunteer to give no gifts. But I can still take whatever I want in your system.

Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
In a system of money you are a slave, good if you like what you do and make enough money but for the majority of people this is not the case, you do what you can, not what you want.
And what you want is to live in a no money bubble. Go ahead. There is nothing stopping you. Did your hero jebus spend much time complaining that he couldn't abandon money because he needed it to function in the world? Nope. So what are you waiting for?
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Old 8th May 2022, 09:59 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
That's people who screws their neighbour but if you have a system of money that makes it easy it is worse.
Again, it is always easy for some people to screw over their neighbors and your lack of any system whatsoever can't make anything better.


Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Who is the judge of the price of goods?
What people are willing to pay or do for those goods, just as it would be without money. You seem to keep confusing a lack of money with a lack of valuation.


Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
As you have wealth and poverty it is a proof of the inequalities of the system and that such system doesn't work.
No, just proof of the inequalities of people. The system of money doesn't cure the inequities of people, it can't, but it does make them more evident and easier to avoid if possible. Your no system doesn't correct such inequities either it just makes them less obvious and dang near impossible to avoid.

Again, the solution is simple, with or without money, just try not to screw over your neighbors. As your are likewise someone's neighbor as well.



Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
If Gates got billions of dollars, he got it by stealing of customer, the money system is a system that allows it.
No one was or is obligated to buy his products, the purchases of such were already, as you put it below, "voluntary".



Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
The system of gift is a better system because it is voluntary, you work on what you want and you benefit of the work your neighbour wanted to do, nobody gets screw up. In a system of money you are a slave, good if you like what you do and make enough money but for the majority of people this is not the case, you do what you can, not what you want.
That's not a system, that just working and then hoping there might just be some kind of benefit left over from all the people not spending time working some job and just hording stuff. Remember all those people looking to screw over their neighbors? They're still going to be around and you just opened the door for them taking anything and all they want.

For a "majority of people", not liking what they have to do and not getting what they think is their fair share of any benefits, if at all, is still going to be the case. Again, a lack of a system of common valuation combined with no controls on contribution vs extraction essentially guarantees that. You've done nothing to actually solve problems and would actually increase both their likely hood and magnitude. Though this has been explained to you before, along with the fact that a lot of people may not be good at what they want to do as well as too many people wanting to do the same thing.
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