Ouija boards-the final word!

[Azrael 5]

Im currently in discussion on Supernatural world forum regarding Ouija boards(URL at the end)and I wondered if any claims had ever been tested scientifically.Or a test set up and results published.
I would have thought it would be so easy to do,that someone must have done it.

ouija

[Meffy]

Don't know about any scientific tests, but my mate likes to tell of a "séance" her family held in the 1960s. Her sister's query concerned whether to buy some rock album or other. The board unerringly spelled out "saveyourmoney," clearly demonstrating that living spirits can affect the planchette as well as the deceased -- maybe better, even.

BTW, I believe the final word on Ouija would be at the bottom center of the commonest modern variety board, right beneath the digits...







"goodbye" =^_^=

[gtgauvin]

Penn and Teller did a nice little trial on their Showtime program "Bullsh!t", where the subjects tried the board out once. They tried it a second time, blindfolding the subjects and, unbeknownst to the would-be diviners, turning the board upside-down. It was a great illustration of the psychological fmechanisms behind this phenomenon.

[Overmannr]

I saw the penn and teller show where they debunked the board and I thought they did a piss poor job at it. the weirdos that they got to endorse the board said speciffically that the spirits must channel through the host people so their ability to communicate (i would think) would be based on the perceptiions and senses of the hosts.
a much better test would have been to give the spirit a pop quiz and see how they do. I have seen similar tests done on a randi endorsed show where a psychic went into a house and made contact with a ghost of a house that has been noted as haunted by a speciffic spirit. he had to guess the name, sex, way of death and give some sort of insight to the spirit. all psychics failed miserably

[Anti_Hypeman]

I tried one once many years ago with a few people including a wiccan. Nothing happened at all the thing didnt move 1 centemeter. Even after I removed my hand and left only true believers at the helm nothing moved.

My studies show that spirit boards fail 100% of the time.

[Thomas]

I tried one as well when I was a kid. Of course, nothing happened at all. This despite the fact that several adults told me not to tamper with the spirits, woooooooh!. Too bad, a chat with Elvis or Hitler would've been worth the wood of the board, but as things turned out it seemed more suited for firewood on a rainy day.

[JR "BOB" Dobbs]

...fun for superstitious kids (scared my sister pretty bad with it once when we were quite young), but I haven't found them (with my limited experience) to have any truth at all.

[Azrael 5]

I posed the question on another forum,that seeing as though a ouija board is a man made object then why can't we contact spirits via leather jacket or wardrobe!! Reasonable I thought.
Didnt go go down too well.

[kip]

reasonable? What did you think was reasonable about it? If you are going to pose a question or challenge, at least be thoughtful and intelligent about it. Otherwise you make it easy for the believers to debunk you!

Quote:

My studies show that spirit boards fail 100% of the time.

What would those studies entail? Any evidentiary proof?

[Moondragon69]

they always worked for us, you unbelievers!!

you aren't the proper conduit obviously...

oh, and a side note...I'm convinced my little wild-eyed Jehova Witness friend was pushing the damn thing around.

We were both about 13.

[Thurkon]

Quote:

Originally posted by Moondragon69
they always worked for us, you unbelievers!!

you aren't the proper conduit obviously...

oh, and a side note...I'm convinced my little wild-eyed Jehova Witness friend was pushing the damn thing around.

We were both about 13.

My brother and I tried one when I was about 10. Didn’t move at all. We sat there despondent for weeks while the pointer gave us nothing. Then, a friend from next door, who had done it successfully with his buddy, came by.

Presto. Instant spirits. That pointer was zipping around like a live wire.

[JPK]

Good morning.

I am hoping to use one in an upcoming seance I plan on doing for fun. Does anyone who has gotten results with one, have a suggestion on the type of board to use for the best results? In the Darren Brown seance show he used a board with lettered cards in a circle and a overturned wine glass. Will this move as easily as a regular out of the box ouija board bought from a toy store? Does the look that the plain board with cards add to the feeling and atmosphere? To me it looked more impressive but I'm not the one who will need to believe in it.

JPK

[Azrael 5]

How to tell the difference between a human moving it and a spirit(according to SNW member)Quote]When spirits move glass it glides,when human moves it..it moves![/quote]
Who needs science?
Incidentally I cant seem to find an impartial site anywhere that debunks Ouija board or has done any double blind type tests on it.Most sites from Google tend to give both sides of argument.Not much use.

[Kopji]

Might look for some experiments under 'ideomotor effect'.

http://skepdic.com/ideomotor.html

[kip]

Quote:

Most sites from Google tend to give both sides of argument.Not much use.

So Azrael I find your comment a bit odd. Don't you WANT both sides to an argument? It sounds like all you want to do is find a site that supports YOUR beliefs....hmmmmnnnn doesn't sound very fair or objective to me......

[Azrael 5]

Quote:

Originally posted by kip
So Azrael I find your comment a bit odd. Don't you WANT both sides to an argument? It sounds like all you want to do is find a site that supports YOUR beliefs....hmmmmnnnn doesn't sound very fair or objective to me......

Scientific evidence is what I want,Kip not tall stories.There is no evidence offered for believers point of view,only accounts of what supposedly happens.

kopji how can I read the actual papers/tests listed on that link?

[jambo372]

But the ideomotor effect can't always be what moves the tumbler/planchette.

What about when the tumbler moves about and no-one is touching it ?

[Azrael 5]

Quote:

Originally posted by jambo372
But the ideomotor effect can't always be what moves the tumbler/planchette.

What about when the tumbler moves about and no-one is touching it ?

mayday and jambo back on forum! Must be Xmas! The tumbler moves on its own? When did you see this? Wasnt Eugene Burger's show was it?

[jambo372]

Quote:

Originally posted by Azrael 5
mayday and jambo back on forum! Must be Xmas! The tumbler moves on its own? When did you see this? Wasnt Eugene Burger's show was it?

Somebody I know made a Ouija board of their own about 30 years ago and the tumbler went flying off the unit and smashed against the wall. There was a group of 3 and no-one touched it.

[Azrael 5]

Quote:

Originally posted by jambo372
Somebody I know made a Ouija board of their own about 30 years ago and the tumbler went flying off the unit and smashed against the wall. There was a group of 3 and no-one touched it.

So its anecdotal.You weren't even there.Next!

[jambo372]

Quote:

Originally posted by Azrael 5
So its anecdotal.You weren't even there.Next!

They never lie.

Of course I wasn't there - you'd have to be insane to ***** around with one of those things.

[Azrael 5]

Quote:

Originally posted by jambo372
They never lie.

Of course I wasn't there - you'd have to be insane to ***** around with one of those things.

What brings you to that conclusion?

[Ashles]

Quote:

Originally posted by jambo372
They never lie.

Of course I wasn't there - you'd have to be insane to ***** around with one of those things.

Jambo - I thought you'd got bored with trolling here?

You're a bit out of practise. That anecdote of an anecdote is far too weak. It's just going to be rejected without any particular interest. Come on, we know you can do better than that.

Remember the heady days of the dirty and dangerous children's centre story? Thhat was you on top form. I enjoyed that one.

[jambo372]

Quote:

Originally posted by Azrael 5
What brings you to that conclusion?

I know them very well.

Using a Ouija Board is like a game of Russian Roulette with your soul.

When you see a powerful Spiritualist Medium, you KNOW precisely what spirits you're speaking with. The medium has control over the spirits. She can be selective about what spirits she allows in and which she doesn't. The medium can use their psychic faculties to manipulate the evil spirits and send them back to the higher side of life and permit only their good counterparts access to live people on the earth plane.

When you use a Ouija Board it's reversed. The spirits now have you under their control ... not vice-versa as is the case with a medium. The spirit will be able to deceive you at will and you cannot be sure who's moving that tumbler ... it could be anyone from dead relatives and friends to spirit guides to satan himself. Despite popular superstition smashing the tumbler after finishing the seance with the spirit board will not ward off any lingering spirits.

Ouija Boards have lead to mental illness and even demonic oppression. I had an acquintance who was taught at high school by an Irish priest who went through hell exorcising someone in Dublin who was exposed to the Devil. It eventually worked.

[Ashles]

Quote:

Originally posted by jambo372
Ouija Boards have lead to mental illness and even demonic oppression. I had an acquintance who was taught at high school by an Irish priest who went through hell exorcising someone in Dublin who was exposed to the Devil. It eventually worked.

Of course Jambo. You have a friend/acquaintace who has experienced every paranormal event imaginable.

[luchog]

Quote:

Originally posted by jambo372
you'd have to be insane to ***** around with one of those things.

Boy I'll say.

An old punk friend of mine once used a Ouija board to try and contact the spirit of Sid Viscious. He'd been trying on an off for a couple days, when suddenly, his classic Rickenbacker bass flew up and smashed into his practice amp. Cost him nearly $3000 to replace the gear. Seriously. I saw the remains of the guitar and amp the next day; and the stale beer stench in the room was awful. Terrible tragedy.

And worse, the only message the board ever spelled out was "Sod off, wanker".

[Ducky]

Quote:

Originally posted by jambo372
I know them very well.

Using a Ouija Board is like a game of Russian Roulette with your soul.

When you see a powerful Spiritualist Medium, you KNOW precisely what spirits you're speaking with. The medium has control over the spirits. She can be selective about what spirits she allows in and which she doesn't. The medium can use their psychic faculties to manipulate the evil spirits and send them back to the higher side of life and permit only their good counterparts access to live people on the earth plane.

When you use a Ouija Board it's reversed. The spirits now have you under their control ... not vice-versa as is the case with a medium. The spirit will be able to deceive you at will and you cannot be sure who's moving that tumbler ... it could be anyone from dead relatives and friends to spirit guides to satan himself. Despite popular superstition smashing the tumbler after finishing the seance with the spirit board will not ward off any lingering spirits.

Ouija Boards have lead to mental illness and even demonic oppression. I had an acquintance who was taught at high school by an Irish priest who went through hell exorcising someone in Dublin who was exposed to the Devil. It eventually worked.

Either that is a very amusing parody, or you are the most deluded fool on the planet.


I'm going with fool.

[Kopji]

Quote:

Originally posted by Azrael 5
Scientific evidence is what I want,Kip not tall stories.There is no evidence offered for believers point of view,only accounts of what supposedly happens.

kopji how can I read the actual papers/tests listed on that link?

hi Azrael,
A couple of the books look like they might be good.
Research papers usually require a small fee to download.

There is a fairly long list of studies and papers here:

http://www.percepp.demon.co.uk/idmoimac.htm

[JPK]

Good evening.

I just purchased a ouija board for a seance I plan on performing ( yes it's a show, and yes they will know!) I had a hard time dertermining what kind of board to go with. My first reaction was to go with something that had very plain and easy to understand letters and symbols. But I also thought that something that looked old and might have some mystical property to it, would add to the effect.
I am lost here here as this will be my first attempt at a dinner/seance. I have time. Any advice?

JPK.

[luchog]

Edited because I accidentally responded to the wrong message; and it won't let me delete.

[pjh]

Jambo is correct, the ouija board has little or nothing to do with the ideomotor effect. Nice examples of the ideomotor effect are the way a pendulum will change its alignment when swinging and dowsing.

The force needed to move the pointer (plus everyone elses hands/fingers) is far to big to be explained by this.

Another hint as to what's going on is that dowsing and pendulum divining work with only one person (and that person appears to be able to genuinely deceive themself).

The ouija board has a far more prosaic explanation, one (or more) of the participants is conciously moving it around, and the rest are amazed.

[Azrael 5]

Its still some part Ideomotor effect pjh.

Quote:

Ouija Boards have lead to mental illness and even demonic oppression. I had an acquintance who was taught at high school by an Irish priest who went through hell exorcising someone in Dublin who was exposed to the Devil. It eventually worked

I had had a friend of friend who knew someone whose Dad worked with someone whose brother's next door neighbour's auntie once lost her purse in the supermarket!
Don't know how she survived.

[mgdwcb]

I used to be able to perform the Ouija by myself with a coin and home-made board. It did seem that a `force' was leading my finger. The ideomotor effect surely? And I recieved some strange replies to questions (my subconscious mind was having a field day!).

I can't seem to do it any more, my finger just rests on the coin unless I `think' the coin to move to a certain letter while relaxing my finger totally. Perhaps my subconscious knows I am more sceptical these days.

I also tried the Ouija with a pendulum, too - strange phenomena, as the pendulum (for me anyway) was flying around spelling out words and replies really fast! Again I can't seem to do it any more...

As for `entities' (ouija always seems like another `person' is replying) the subconscious can come up with multiple personalities. Might be an interesting study for psychologists.

[mgdwcb]

Quote:

Originally posted by pjh
Jambo is correct, the ouija board has little or nothing to do with the ideomotor effect. Nice examples of the ideomotor effect are the way a pendulum will change its alignment when swinging and dowsing.

The force needed to move the pointer (plus everyone elses hands/fingers) is far to big to be explained by this.

Another hint as to what's going on is that dowsing and pendulum divining work with only one person (and that person appears to be able to genuinely deceive themself).

The ouija board has a far more prosaic explanation, one (or more) of the participants is conciously moving it around, and the rest are amazed.

Regarding the upturned tumbler version of the Ouija in particular, I don't think the phenomena always needs someone conciously moving the glass around. I once tried an upturned tumbler with my wife, who'd never done it before, and I knew I wasn't deliberately moving it - and could see and feel that my wive wasn't deliberately moving it, as her finger actually lost contact with the glass at certain points. So perhap the ideomotor effect, or something like it, should be considered in these cases.

[Twilek]

My sister has a ouija board and we were playing with it a few years ago. The pointer moved around a lot, sometimes so quickly I could hardly keep up with it. We weren't asking it questions, so it just kinda rambled about, sometimes repeating various number and nonsensical letter combinations. I thought it was pretty neat, and couldn't explain it...after all, it was not me moving it, right?

What really got my interest however was how the thing reacted later on that night after we'd been drinking. It didn't work worth a crap. The pointer barely moved, and when it did it was very sluggish and often simply went right off the side of the board. Hmmmm.... ouija boards don't like drunk participants? I began to have the glimmer of an idea that perhaps we were moving the pointer ourselves, whether it actually "felt" like it or not.

Once I read about the ideomotor effect, it all made sense. Of course it works differently when drunk. Everyone's motor control, ideo or otherwise, is sluggish and difficult to control (such as keeping something between the lines) when intoxicated.

I haven't had the opportunity to try it again now that I know the secret...I also wonder, will it work as well now that I know?

[Bronze Dog]

Welcome to the forum, Twilek.

That's a rather unusual way to get to figuring out the ideomotor reaction, but hey, anything that makes you a more active seeker of the truth is good in my book.

[Twilek]

Heh-heh-heh...thanks, BronzeDog.

[Ashles]

I've done the Ouija board a couple of times.

One time at Uni we asked to speak to Satan. He took an absolute age to spell out his name:
BELZEBUB

I guess he forgot how many Es his name contains.

After some very sluggish and dull answers we were all getting pretty tired. We asked if we could end the session and the glass moved to 'Yes' very quickly.
It was almost as though Satan was every bit as tired as we were.

Pjh - it definitely can be the ideomotor effect which is perfectly strong enough between a couple of people to move a glass.
It starts moving slightly and everyone helps it in that direction without conscious decision.

There isn't a cut-off point of 'force' that the ideomotor effect generates. It's not like an actual force - all it means is that you are moving something, but not deliberately.
So it could certainly move a glass. In theory it could work with just one of you, if you were quite suggestible. You would just ignore any signs that you were pushing the glass.

Funnily I noticed it moved much quicker when we all knew what the answer was going to be.
If you ask "Do you have a message for someone here" the glass will move to "Yes" nice and quickly, as everyone wants that to happen. Everyone is generating a smal amount of force towards the same target.
More complex or unknown answers were often slower - at least for the first few letters.

And everyone always says "I know I wasn't pushing it" - but the whole point is that you don't know that. I have seen the glass tilt before in a way that really looked like it was from pressure from my own finger, but I was sure I wasn't deliberately pushing it.

Of course sometimes is it just one person pushing and having a laugh.

[Twilek]

An even freakier use of the ideomotor effect is table-tilting. I experienced this as a teenager, many years ago. I was completely fascinated and could never explain it. Like the ouija, I would love to try it again with some people now that I know how it works.

Thing is, even though I now know how the trick works, I still find it fascinating. How could it not be, to have this little parlor table bouncing around under one's fingertips? It's neat as hell.

[pjh]

Quote:

Pjh - it definitely can be the ideomotor effect which is perfectly strong enough between a couple of people to move a glass.

Right then, how would you go about proving that, or getting any evidence whatsoever to back up such an outrageous claim?

Let's be clear here what I am saying - if a word is spelled out letter by letter say "Aunt Jessica" this is done by the concious control of one of the participants.

How would you go about providing any evidence for your position, that a word could be spelt without the person haveing any concious knowledge that they were doing it?