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Tags jeremy bamber , Julie Mugford , murder cases , Nevill Bamber , Sheila Bamber

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Old 25th October 2019, 02:14 AM   #361
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Originally Posted by Fixit View Post
"Recent twin studies show persuasive evidence that both genetic and environmental factors contribute to antisocial behaviour. However the genetic evidence indicates that there is no single gene, or even a small number of genes, that predict an increased risk of antisocial behaviour.Nov 9, 2017"

Fortunately the Court won't speculate if Jeremy achieves a new appeal. On the face of it he has strong evidence as to the probability of a 2nd call - so his account becomes more credible. There is also fresh forensic evidence, or I should say freshly understood.

When police make accusations about staged crime scenes in cases of false convictions it is to explain evidence pointing away from an accused. The falsely accused get blamed in every way possible - just like you and a rogue criminal gene you imagined.
You could say the converse, that the dead woman is falsely accused of the murder by Bamber defenders for having had mental health issues, which had no correlation to the likelihood of being a murderer, who would kill her own two eight-year old twins and her adopted parents, and then kill herself. It is possible she suffered severe depression that might have unbalanced her in such a manner. However, AIUI the issues surrounding the silencer tends to rule out suicide by Sheila Cafell.
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Old 25th October 2019, 02:57 AM   #362
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
You could say the converse, that the dead woman is falsely accused of the murder by Bamber defenders for having had mental health issues, which had no correlation to the likelihood of being a murderer, who would kill her own two eight-year old twins and her adopted parents, and then kill herself. It is possible she suffered severe depression that might have unbalanced her in such a manner. However, AIUI the issues surrounding the silencer tends to rule out suicide by Sheila Cafell.
This is an unusual case, the scratches under the mantle piece allegedly by a silencer in a struggle are not possible in a struggle. Police crime scene photos on the day show an umblemished underside to the mantlepiece.
As Sherlock Holmes would say eliminate the imposssible, whatever is left no matter how unlikely is the solution.
This is that the mantlepiece was deliberately scratched with the silencer in the days after, almost certainly by family members who knew that Jeremy Bamber had them over a barrel and their tenure on the land was over. No pun intended.
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Old 26th October 2019, 10:30 PM   #363
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
You could say the converse, that the dead woman is falsely accused of the murder by Bamber defenders for having had mental health issues, which had no correlation to the likelihood of being a murderer, who would kill her own two eight-year old twins and her adopted parents, and then kill herself. It is possible she suffered severe depression that might have unbalanced her in such a manner. However, AIUI the issues surrounding the silencer tends to rule out suicide by Sheila Cafell.
No, the point is what the new evidence presents. It fits together with Jeremy's account, the 2nd phone call the Judge told the Jury to ignore. I put the previous evidence and the new evidence from the article in continuity to show it's a complete defense the Jury did not hear.

"Bamber had argued two calls were made to police on the night of the murders, one from himself and another from his father, but the prosecution at his trial had alleged there was only one which was made by Bamber at 3.26am from the scene."

"His legal team argue it shows Bamber could not have made a 3.26am call from the farm and returned to his home 3.5 miles away in Goldhanger to make the second call, the Daily Mirror reported."

"The new note is said to refer to a call, timed at "approximately 3.37am", from Bamber."

"The jury at his Chelmsford Crown Court trial were directed to disregard Bamber's claims that he had called police from his home."

The solicitors have said it is a complex case. Part of that complexity is the forensics, including hopefully the trajectory of the shots which killed Nevill - all of which adds to the weight that a fresh Jury could attach to proof from the files that there was a 2nd call.

Essex police well understood that a 2nd call was not helpful to the case so the details of it got lost. If Jeremy knew there was no 2nd call he would not have claimed so. Unfortunately for him police 'lost it' to damage his credibility on that issue and therefore enhanced the case against him.

From what I recall about the case from a lot of reading around 4 years ago according to my notes, the evidence is weak, particularly around the 'secret' silencer, the wounds to Nevill, June and Sheila. These details of a potential recorded 2nd call - just like Jeremy said, weaken it further. It will be great if this case is given a full analysis again - as science has jumped forward in its understanding of forensics. It also comes back to me that first shot to Sheila was not immediately fatal according to a forensic pathologists and would not have prevented her shooting herself again.
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Old 26th October 2019, 11:28 PM   #364
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Originally Posted by Fixit View Post
No, the point is what the new evidence presents. It fits together with Jeremy's account, the 2nd phone call the Judge told the Jury to ignore. I put the previous evidence and the new evidence from the article in continuity to show it's a complete defense the Jury did not hear.

"Bamber had argued two calls were made to police on the night of the murders, one from himself and another from his father, but the prosecution at his trial had alleged there was only one which was made by Bamber at 3.26am from the scene."

"His legal team argue it shows Bamber could not have made a 3.26am call from the farm and returned to his home 3.5 miles away in Goldhanger to make the second call, the Daily Mirror reported."

"The new note is said to refer to a call, timed at "approximately 3.37am", from Bamber."

"The jury at his Chelmsford Crown Court trial were directed to disregard Bamber's claims that he had called police from his home."

The solicitors have said it is a complex case. Part of that complexity is the forensics, including hopefully the trajectory of the shots which killed Nevill - all of which adds to the weight that a fresh Jury could attach to proof from the files that there was a 2nd call.

Essex police well understood that a 2nd call was not helpful to the case so the details of it got lost. If Jeremy knew there was no 2nd call he would not have claimed so. Unfortunately for him police 'lost it' to damage his credibility on that issue and therefore enhanced the case against him.

From what I recall about the case from a lot of reading around 4 years ago according to my notes, the evidence is weak, particularly around the 'secret' silencer, the wounds to Nevill, June and Sheila. These details of a potential recorded 2nd call - just like Jeremy said, weaken it further. It will be great if this case is given a full analysis again - as science has jumped forward in its understanding of forensics. It also comes back to me that first shot to Sheila was not immediately fatal according to a forensic pathologists and would not have prevented her shooting herself again.
"approximately 3.37am" tends to suggest whoever wrote it did not have a watch, hence the estimate.
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Old 27th October 2019, 01:26 AM   #365
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Originally Posted by Fixit View Post

"Bamber had argued two calls were made to police on the night of the murders, one from himself and another from his father, but the prosecution at his trial had alleged there was only one which was made by Bamber at 3.26am from the scene."

"His legal team argue it shows Bamber could not have made a 3.26am call from the farm and returned to his home 3.5 miles away in Goldhanger to make the second call, the Daily Mirror reported."
Whatís the reason that he couldnít have travelled three and a half miles in (approximately) 11 minutes?
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Old 27th October 2019, 04:22 AM   #366
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
What’s the reason that he couldn’t have travelled three and a half miles in (approximately) 11 minutes?


And that's precisely what Bamber obviously did do.

He reasoned that if, as the very last thing he did after the murders, he placed a call to his own house from the farm - which he'd claim was his father calling him in a panic - then immediately left and cycled at highest speed back to his house before immediately calling the police upon his arrival home, he could blur the lines and make it seem difficult for him to have done things in this manner. And he'd thus have reasoned that if he could pull that trick off, it would - in and of itself - tend to strongly support his version of events (i.e. that he was contacted by his father in panic in the middle of the night saying that Sheila was going to kill them all, and that this in turn prompted him to call the police).

Of course, one of the (many) elephants in the room here is quite why Bamber - assuming for a moment that one believed his version of events - waited those 11-odd minutes within his house before calling the police. If your father called you in a panic to say your sister was going crazy with a rifle and trying to kill everyone in the house, I'd say you'd call 999 immediately the call with your father terminated. Why on Earth, in that scenario, would you effectively do nothing for those 11 minutes before alerting the authorities? And what's more, I believe that when Bamber did call the police, he phoned the local station and not the emergency 999 number.


Look: this case has become a little opaque because of the low quality of the police response on the night and their subsequent investigation. But there's still more than enough reliable evidence, taken as a whole, to safely convict Bamber BARD.
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Old 27th October 2019, 06:18 AM   #367
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
"approximately 3.37am" tends to suggest whoever wrote it did not have a watch, hence the estimate.
It may also mean that they only recorded hours and minutes and not seconds. Therefore it would be inaccurate to say it was 03:37:00 exactly. It might be 03:36:31 to 03:37:29 or 03:37:00 to 03:37:59 depending on local practice.
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Old 27th October 2019, 02:46 PM   #368
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
And that's precisely what Bamber obviously did do.

He reasoned that if, as the very last thing he did after the murders, he placed a call to his own house from the farm - which he'd claim was his father calling him in a panic - then immediately left and cycled at highest speed back to his house before immediately calling the police upon his arrival home, he could blur the lines and make it seem difficult for him to have done things in this manner. And he'd thus have reasoned that if he could pull that trick off, it would - in and of itself - tend to strongly support his version of events (i.e. that he was contacted by his father in panic in the middle of the night saying that Sheila was going to kill them all, and that this in turn prompted him to call the police).

Of course, one of the (many) elephants in the room here is quite why Bamber - assuming for a moment that one believed his version of events - waited those 11-odd minutes within his house before calling the police. If your father called you in a panic to say your sister was going crazy with a rifle and trying to kill everyone in the house, I'd say you'd call 999 immediately the call with your father terminated. Why on Earth, in that scenario, would you effectively do nothing for those 11 minutes before alerting the authorities? And what's more, I believe that when Bamber did call the police, he phoned the local station and not the emergency 999 number.


Look: this case has become a little opaque because of the low quality of the police response on the night and their subsequent investigation. But there's still more than enough reliable evidence, taken as a whole, to safely convict Bamber BARD.
Except he wasn't there. MikeG made a brave attempt at constructing how Neville received 8 bullets from Jeremy and in that process proved conclusively that it was impossible. Holly Goodhead on the other hand has deconstructed the trajectories and bullet casings conclusively showing it was Sheila. But judges are far too obsessed with law to use common sense. The case is a 32 year obscenity.

Last edited by Samson; 27th October 2019 at 03:17 PM. Reason: corrected spelling of obscenity
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Old 27th October 2019, 02:48 PM   #369
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
And that's precisely what Bamber obviously did do.

He reasoned that if, as the very last thing he did after the murders, he placed a call to his own house from the farm - which he'd claim was his father calling him in a panic - then immediately left and cycled at highest speed back to his house before immediately calling the police upon his arrival home.
Weren't both calls to the police?
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Old 27th October 2019, 09:07 PM   #370
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
"approximately 3.37am" tends to suggest whoever wrote it did not have a watch, hence the estimate.
Or equally, did have a watch but did not record the exact time. However, it's the 2nd call where formerly, apart from Jeremy - there was said to be only one.
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Old 27th October 2019, 09:12 PM   #371
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Whatís the reason that he couldnít have travelled three and a half miles in (approximately) 11 minutes?

Don't remember at the moment sorry. Possibly without a car because there was mentioned made of a bike but Jeremy when arriving after police was in a car. One of the buffs will recall the details.
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Old 27th October 2019, 09:28 PM   #372
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
And that's precisely what Bamber obviously did do.

He reasoned that if, as the very last thing he did after the murders, he placed a call to his own house from the farm - which he'd claim was his father calling him in a panic - then immediately left and cycled at highest speed back to his house before immediately calling the police upon his arrival home, he could blur the lines and make it seem difficult for him to have done things in this manner. And he'd thus have reasoned that if he could pull that trick off, it would - in and of itself - tend to strongly support his version of events (i.e. that he was contacted by his father in panic in the middle of the night saying that Sheila was going to kill them all, and that this in turn prompted him to call the police).

Of course, one of the (many) elephants in the room here is quite why Bamber - assuming for a moment that one believed his version of events - waited those 11-odd minutes within his house before calling the police. If your father called you in a panic to say your sister was going crazy with a rifle and trying to kill everyone in the house, I'd say you'd call 999 immediately the call with your father terminated. Why on Earth, in that scenario, would you effectively do nothing for those 11 minutes before alerting the authorities? And what's more, I believe that when Bamber did call the police, he phoned the local station and not the emergency 999 number.


Look: this case has become a little opaque because of the low quality of the police response on the night and their subsequent investigation. But there's still more than enough reliable evidence, taken as a whole, to safely convict Bamber BARD.
2 things there. A call in the small hours may not elicit a sharply thought out response. On reflection what he may have first dismissed may have made reconsider. I can't speculate on how many calls are made to local police stations in those time rather than to the emergency number. But overall there was no evidence of a 2nd call, apart from Jeremy's claim - and now there is.
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Old 27th October 2019, 09:30 PM   #373
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Except he wasn't there. MikeG made a brave attempt at constructing how Neville received 8 bullets from Jeremy and in that process proved conclusively that it was impossible. Holly Goodhead on the other hand has deconstructed the trajectories and bullet casings conclusively showing it was Sheila. But judges are far too obsessed with law to use common sense. The case is a 32 year obscenity.
You're a little confused about that conversation as to the stairs, go back and read.
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Old 28th October 2019, 05:02 AM   #374
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Originally Posted by Fixit View Post
Don't remember at the moment sorry. Possibly without a car because there was mentioned made of a bike but Jeremy when arriving after police was in a car. One of the buffs will recall the details.
Depends on the roads, but an average of 20mph is not impossible on a bike, especially if fueled by adrenaline.
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Old 29th October 2019, 12:24 AM   #375
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Depends on the roads, but an average of 20mph is not impossible on a bike, especially if fueled by adrenaline.
That shouldn't be an issue for the Court. The issue is whether the evidence of a 2nd call denied by the Crown, and in fact the Court, would be material to a Jury. That it was denied by the Crown, and there were instructions from the Court to ignore it, is in favor of Jeremy. Then there is the fresh purchase on the forensics, including trajectory of rifle shots and a very plausible reason that the scratch said to be caused by the rifle being swung at Nevill in the kitchen could not have happened, another discovery a few years ago.

It will be very good for this case to have a robust review again.
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Old 29th October 2019, 02:44 AM   #376
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Originally Posted by Fixit View Post
You're a little confused about that conversation as to the stairs, go back and read.
No need to go back and read because this is what happened, I have no doubt I have posted before.
Sheila Caffel retired to bed and found her period had begun.
She went downstairs and made a noise with water, buckets, and a tampon applicator was found in the living room.
Neville came downstairs to confirm the noise was not intruders, and the argument about the care of the twins was reignited.
Jeremy had left the gun loaded in the kitchen, it was seized by Sheila, Neville dialed Jeremy saying Sheila has gone crazy with the gun.
Sheila shot June in bed 5 times so Neville ascended the stairs, Sheila swivelled on the landing and shot Neville twice in the mouth, he turned and fled down the stairs was shot in the shoulder and elbow, finally collapsing in the coal scuttle. Sheila reloaded and shot him four times, returned upstairs to find June had managed to move towards the door, she shot her three more times. The twins slept through. She figured all was lost and they should be despatched and reloaded and shot them multiple times.
Then she washed herself, eventually the police surrounded, and when all was lost she tried to shoot herself leaning against the bedside cabinet, but the angle was wrong and she shot herself through the neck nowhere near the brain. She realigned and shot herself through the brain.

That is what happened.

Then the relatives orchestrated the mantelpiece scratches, they were desperate because the ne'er do well was in control of the farm.
Of course he was not a ne'er do well, he was harvesting grain all day and trying to shoot rabbits later.
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Old 29th October 2019, 08:05 AM   #377
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Originally Posted by Fixit View Post
That shouldn't be an issue for the Court.
No, I wasn't implying it was a factor in whether there were grounds for an appeal, it was a more basic question about the case, as it's not one I've really read much about before.
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Old 30th October 2019, 05:57 AM   #378
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Weren't both calls to the police?


I thought the first (alleged) call was from the farmhouse to Bamber's house. This was the pretext for Bamber to become concerned and to then call the police. Otherwise, how would he have known (per his version of events) that "Sheila was going berserk"? And how/why would Bamber have called the police at all that night, if he hadn't "found out" about what was happening at the farm? The police didn't call Bamber - he called them.

I think Bamber may well have thought about, and discounted, the idea of doing the shootings then just going quickly home and doing absolutely nothing until the next morning, whereupon, on the pretext of trundling over to the farm on a routine daytime casual visit, he would come upon the bloody scene. And I think he may have discounted that option on the grounds that this would be a more reasonable suspect, whereas if he called the police in "panic" and "concern" on the night he reasoned (IMO) that the police would probably never suspect that the true killer would have acted in that way.

IIRC there was also the matter of the phone being off the hook in the farmhouse, and Bamber telling police that his father either dropped the phone or had it knocked out of his hand, and after a while Bamber terminated the call at his end. But (again, if the above is correct) analogue residential lines at that time were controlled by the caller. If the caller neglected to terminate the call, the line to the called party stayed open, and there was nothing that the called party could do about it. The called party could not get a dial tone - they would have stayed connected to the calling party.

So if Bamber's version of events in respect of his father's phone call was to be believed, he should not have been able to make another outgoing call to the police 11-12 minutes later. What I think actually happened was that after placing the call to his own house from within the farmhouse (after having finished the murders, and on his way out), he put the phone handset back down onto the base (thus closing the line), but then thought it might look more authentic and dramatic if the phone were hanging off the hook, as if his father had had the phone knocked from his hand in a struggle.

Of course it's possible that, if that was what actually occurred (and presuming for a moment that Sheila was indeed the killer) that Sheila - having knocked the phone from her (much bigger and stronger...) father's hand, had had the wherewithall to depress the hook on the base unit with her hand in order to terminate the call and close the line. But then again, Bamber's version has his mentally-unstable sister going berserk in the house. Would someone in such a state really have been thinking clearly enough to depress the hook (while still not replacing the handset onto the base unit)?
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Old 31st October 2019, 10:29 AM   #379
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
No need to go back and read because this is what happened, I have no doubt I have posted before.
Sheila Caffel retired to bed and found her period had begun.
She went downstairs and made a noise with water, buckets, and a tampon applicator was found in the living room.
Neville came downstairs to confirm the noise was not intruders, and the argument about the care of the twins was reignited.
Jeremy had left the gun loaded in the kitchen, it was seized by Sheila, Neville dialed Jeremy saying Sheila has gone crazy with the gun.
Sheila shot June in bed 5 times so Neville ascended the stairs, Sheila swivelled on the landing and shot Neville twice in the mouth, he turned and fled down the stairs was shot in the shoulder and elbow, finally collapsing in the coal scuttle. Sheila reloaded and shot him four times, returned upstairs to find June had managed to move towards the door, she shot her three more times. The twins slept through. She figured all was lost and they should be despatched and reloaded and shot them multiple times.
Then she washed herself, eventually the police surrounded, and when all was lost she tried to shoot herself leaning against the bedside cabinet, but the angle was wrong and she shot herself through the neck nowhere near the brain. She realigned and shot herself through the brain.

That is what happened.

Then the relatives orchestrated the mantelpiece scratches, they were desperate because the ne'er do well was in control of the farm.
Of course he was not a ne'er do well, he was harvesting grain all day and trying to shoot rabbits later.
That's convenient. Having arrived at a scene of murder and mayhem, the relatives said to each other, 'Looks like Jezza is going to inherit the farm now both the parents are slain. Oh, no. I know, let's put a scratch on the mantlepiece and pin the murders on Jez. I never did like him anyway.'
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Old 31st October 2019, 10:52 AM   #380
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
I thought the first (alleged) call was from the farmhouse to Bamber's house. This was the pretext for Bamber to become concerned and to then call the police. Otherwise, how would he have known (per his version of events) that "Sheila was going berserk"? And how/why would Bamber have called the police at all that night, if he hadn't "found out" about what was happening at the farm? The police didn't call Bamber - he called them.

I was going on what the newspaper article that Fixit referred to said, though they may have been confused, too.

Quote:
"Bamber had argued two calls were made to police on the night of the murders, one from himself and another from his father, but the prosecution at his trial had alleged there was only one which was made by Bamber at 3.26am from the scene."

"His legal team argue it shows Bamber could not have made a 3.26am call from the farm and returned to his home 3.5 miles away in Goldhanger to make the second call, the Daily Mirror reported."
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Old 31st October 2019, 03:35 PM   #381
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It is curious that the case could devolve to matters as banal as phone logs to determine whether Jeremy Bamber engaged on a plan that no thinking man would hope to succeed in. If the phone logs prove he was where the police claim he was at different times there would be no debate, they would be unequivocal.

He didn't do it, he would have to have truly believed he could slaughter his family and then persuade his sister to pose gracefully in a suicide pose as he shot her, with her mother's body 6 feet away, leave no evidence and have not a scratch or forensic trail to implicate him.

It is ridiculous but not uncommon for police and prosecutors to get this sort of thing by dopey jurors and appeal court judges.
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Old 31st October 2019, 03:47 PM   #382
Agatha
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I must say I'm finding all of these possible phone calls confusing.

All, some or none of these might be confirmed by BT records, and the fact that it was possible to make one's own phone ring and answerphones can pick up calls does muddy the waters a lot.

3.00am or thereabouts: Jeremy to Julie Mugford
3.26: farmhouse to Jeremy's house
3.26: farmhouse to emergency services
3.37: Jeremy's house to non-emergency police number

Is that all of the calls that are alleged to have been made? Which if any of these calls are confirmed by BT records?
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Old 2nd November 2019, 05:37 PM   #383
Fixit
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Originally Posted by Agatha View Post
I must say I'm finding all of these possible phone calls confusing.

All, some or none of these might be confirmed by BT records, and the fact that it was possible to make one's own phone ring and answerphones can pick up calls does muddy the waters a lot.

3.00am or thereabouts: Jeremy to Julie Mugford
3.26: farmhouse to Jeremy's house
3.26: farmhouse to emergency services
3.37: Jeremy's house to non-emergency police number

Is that all of the calls that are alleged to have been made? Which if any of these calls are confirmed by BT records?
Hi Agatha,
With the reservation of not being entirely sure, I think your list of calls is correct. From the article concerning new proceedings it is revealed above (see my post on the 27th Oct @ 6.30) that the call by Nevill on your list was not made: "Bamber had argued two calls were made to police on the night of the murders, one from himself and another from his father, but the prosecution at his trial had alleged there was only one which was made by Bamber at 3.26am from the scene."
If I have it correct:
3.00 call uncontested
3.26 to farmhouse to cottage made but debated (as being from Jeremy not Nevill)
3.26 to emergency services by Nevill - said not to have happened. Now new evidence showing that it may well have happened.
3.37 No contest but said to be 'suspicious' because to local police.
What some of us are struggling with is whether the 'new' alleged confirmation of the previously denied 3.26 call (Nevill to police) was made points to innocence.
Without trying to be controversial, it suited the Crown case that the 3.26 call was not made - and would be no surprise if some police considered it should be hidden.

Cheers.
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Old 2nd November 2019, 05:50 PM   #384
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
That's convenient. Having arrived at a scene of murder and mayhem, the relatives said to each other, 'Looks like Jezza is going to inherit the farm now both the parents are slain. Oh, no. I know, let's put a scratch on the mantlepiece and pin the murders on Jez. I never did like him anyway.'
Police were first to arrive at the crime scene. Don't think there is any debate about that so no suggestion they set the crime scene. No way of knowing when the scratched arrived, but it can be ascertained not to have happened as the result of the rifle being swung at Nevill as was the Crown's case. The reason for that, and I have seen the photo of the scratch is that the scratch can't have started from an edge in the joinery if swung in an arch. As for the silencer not to have been discovered by police results in requiring a leap of faith.

I'm fixing on points in continuity that are supported by a 2nd call which is how a Court would be expected to look at it - in isolation and then in continuity with other known facts. if the call becomes a likely fact - Jeremy could be declared not guilty BRD by a fresh jury.
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Old 2nd November 2019, 05:59 PM   #385
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
I thought the first (alleged) call was from the farmhouse to Bamber's house. This was the pretext for Bamber to become concerned and to then call the police. Otherwise, how would he have known (per his version of events) that "Sheila was going berserk"? And how/why would Bamber have called the police at all that night, if he hadn't "found out" about what was happening at the farm? The police didn't call Bamber - he called them.

I think Bamber may well have thought about, and discounted, the idea of doing the shootings then just going quickly home and doing absolutely nothing until the next morning, whereupon, on the pretext of trundling over to the farm on a routine daytime casual visit, he would come upon the bloody scene. And I think he may have discounted that option on the grounds that this would be a more reasonable suspect, whereas if he called the police in "panic" and "concern" on the night he reasoned (IMO) that the police would probably never suspect that the true killer would have acted in that way.

IIRC there was also the matter of the phone being off the hook in the farmhouse, and Bamber telling police that his father either dropped the phone or had it knocked out of his hand, and after a while Bamber terminated the call at his end. But (again, if the above is correct) analogue residential lines at that time were controlled by the caller. If the caller neglected to terminate the call, the line to the called party stayed open, and there was nothing that the called party could do about it. The called party could not get a dial tone - they would have stayed connected to the calling party.

So if Bamber's version of events in respect of his father's phone call was to be believed, he should not have been able to make another outgoing call to the police 11-12 minutes later. What I think actually happened was that after placing the call to his own house from within the farmhouse (after having finished the murders, and on his way out), he put the phone handset back down onto the base (thus closing the line), but then thought it might look more authentic and dramatic if the phone were hanging off the hook, as if his father had had the phone knocked from his hand in a struggle.

Of course it's possible that, if that was what actually occurred (and presuming for a moment that Sheila was indeed the killer) that Sheila - having knocked the phone from her (much bigger and stronger...) father's hand, had had the wherewithall to depress the hook on the base unit with her hand in order to terminate the call and close the line. But then again, Bamber's version has his mentally-unstable sister going berserk in the house. Would someone in such a state really have been thinking clearly enough to depress the hook (while still not replacing the handset onto the base unit)?
All of this is impacted by the said information found on file of the 2nd 3.26 call. That is why it is important, it requires no assumptions as to what people believe other people thought.
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Old 5th November 2019, 04:40 AM   #386
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
he would have to have truly believed he could slaughter his family and then persuade his sister to pose gracefully in a suicide pose as he shot her, with her mother's body 6 feet away, leave no evidence and have not a scratch or forensic trail to implicate him.
Banner was, and remains, an egotistical psychopath who couldn't believe his plan would fail; he was unable to comprehend that he wasn't as intelligent as he thought. Hence he was caught and convicted.
Even the psychiatrist engaged by Bamberís defence team diagnosed him as a psychopath.

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Old 5th November 2019, 12:21 PM   #387
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Banner was, and remains, an egotistical psychopath who couldn't believe his plan would fail; he was unable to comprehend that he wasn't as intelligent as he thought. Hence he was caught and convicted.
Even the psychiatrist engaged by Bamber’s defence team diagnosed him as a psychopath.


That which is asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.

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Old 6th November 2019, 12:21 AM   #388
Fixit
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Banner was, and remains, an egotistical psychopath who couldn't believe his plan would fail; he was unable to comprehend that he wasn't as intelligent as he thought. Hence he was caught and convicted.
Even the psychiatrist engaged by Bamber’s defence team diagnosed him as a psychopath.

Could I trouble you for that report? We must deal with facts.
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Old 6th November 2019, 04:42 AM   #389
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Originally Posted by Fixit View Post
Hi Agatha,
With the reservation of not being entirely sure, I think your list of calls is correct. From the article concerning new proceedings it is revealed above (see my post on the 27th Oct @ 6.30) that the call by Nevill on your list was not made: "Bamber had argued two calls were made to police on the night of the murders, one from himself and another from his father, but the prosecution at his trial had alleged there was only one which was made by Bamber at 3.26am from the scene."
If I have it correct:
3.00 call uncontested
3.26 to farmhouse to cottage made but debated (as being from Jeremy not Nevill)
3.26 to emergency services by Nevill - said not to have happened. Now new evidence showing that it may well have happened.
3.37 No contest but said to be 'suspicious' because to local police.
What some of us are struggling with is whether the 'new' alleged confirmation of the previously denied 3.26 call (Nevill to police) was made points to innocence.
Without trying to be controversial, it suited the Crown case that the 3.26 call was not made - and would be no surprise if some police considered it should be hidden.

Cheers.
This is roughly the telephone sequence.


3:22am Control room

JB: Youíve got to help me, my father has just phoned me saying Ďplease come over, your
sister has gone crazy and has the guní then the phone went dead. My father sounded
terrified, I donít think he was kidding.

West: Where does your father live?

JB: White House farm Tolleshunt D'arcy.

West: Does your sister have access to any guns?

JB: Yes my father has a collection of 12 bores and 4.10s and .22 rifles. Look my sister has a
history of mental illness. Youíve got to help me.

West: Hold the line please, Iíll contact our information room and find out where the nearest
unit is.


3:26am Information room

"I received a telephone call on the internal line. The officer at the other end announced
himself as PC 1990 at Chelmsford.

Mr Bamber was worried about a phone call that he had received from his father at
Tolleshunt D'arcy. I cannot remember the direct speech that was used but I was informed
that the telephone call had been received from Mr Bamber and that Mr Bamber's daughter
had gone berserk and had taken one of his guns and that the line had gone dead.

PC 1990 also informed me that Mr BAMBER Junior had stated that there was a collection of
guns at the house. I recorded these as being Shotguns and 410's."


3:30am Witham Police Station

"About 03:30 am I was on duty at Witham Police Station in company Police Sergeant 36
BEWS and Police Constable 1509 MYALL. when I received a message over my personal radio,
from Chelmsford Police Station to the effect that a telephone call had been received from a
Mr Jeremy BAMBER, who had said that he had received a telephone call from his father Mr
Neville BAMBER of "White House Farm" Tolleshunt D'Arcy, saying that his sister was going
berserk and that she had a gun."


3:34am Control room

West: Hello

JB: Christ. You took a long time

West: I have contacted my Information room and Witham Police Station and a car is on its way
to your father's address at Tolleshunt D'Arcy. What's your fatherís telephone number?

JB: Maldon 860204

West: How old is your father?

JB: Sixty two

West: Do you know whoís in the house?

JB: My father obviously , my mother and Sheila. Look, when my father rang me he sounded
terrified, I donít think he's kidding about. I tried ringing him back and I can't get any reply.

West: Will you go to the house and wait for the Police officers and liaise with them there?

JB: Shall I go now?

West: Yes, the car from Witham won't take long. Can I have your telephone number?
JB: Goldhanger 88645


3:39am (or 3:19am)

JB: Thereís something wrong at home. I donít know what to do

Julie: Go to bed. bye honey

JB: I love you lots



3:35 - CA07 leaves Witham
3:41 - Jeremy leaves his house
3:47 - CA07 drives past Jeremy.
3:48 - CA07 arrives at White House Farm. Average journey speed 48mph
3:49 - Jeremy arrives at White House Farm. Average journey speed 31mph
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Old 9th November 2019, 08:12 AM   #390
IsThisTheLife
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Banner was, and remains, an egotistical psychopath who couldn't believe his plan would fail; he was unable to comprehend that he wasn't as intelligent as he thought. Hence he was caught and convicted.
Even the psychiatrist engaged by Bamber’s defence team diagnosed him as a psychopath.

That is, actually, a gratuitous assertion that is the complete opposite of the truth (AKA trolling).

He's been evaluated by at least three different psychologists over the years, one of whom interviewed him for many hours over a period of several weeks (after his conviction) and who came to the unequivocal conclusion that Bamber exhibited no antisocial personality traits whatever [ETA >> as did all the others].
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Old 9th November 2019, 01:32 PM   #391
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catsmate was talking about "Banner", not Bamber.

Probably referring to The Hulk's alter ego.
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Old 9th November 2019, 02:33 PM   #392
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
catsmate was talking about "Banner", not Bamber.

Probably referring to The Hulk's alter ego.
I thought I'd leave that to someone pithier than me.
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Old 9th November 2019, 02:42 PM   #393
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
catsmate was talking about "Banner", not Bamber.

Probably referring to The Hulk's alter ego.

Auto-correct...
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Old 1st December 2019, 11:44 AM   #394
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Does "dropped the ball" now mean "reached a conclusion I don't agree with"?

There was no ball to drop. The crime-scene was probably the most mis-handled one in the history of modern British crime, but even that couldn't disguise Bamber's guilt.
This. Not that his obvious guilt will stop the Usual Suspects from trying to drag their opinion on the imprisonment of the vicious psychopath Banner into this matter.
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Old 1st December 2019, 12:34 PM   #395
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
This. Not that his obvious guilt will stop the Usual Suspects from trying to drag their opinion on the imprisonment of the vicious psychopath Banner into this matter.
The indications are the commission Andrew Little is steering will eliminate the structural flaws built into the English model, that allowed for the atrocious miscarriage in Bamber to perpetuate.
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Old 2nd December 2019, 12:12 PM   #396
LondonJohn
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
The indications are the commission Andrew Little is steering will eliminate the structural flaws built into the English model, that allowed for the atrocious miscarriage in Bamber to perpetuate.


Samson: who in your opinion carried out all the murders in this case? Do you think the murderer also committed suicide within the farmhouse? And if so, how do you propose that this person committed suicide?
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Old 3rd December 2019, 03:53 AM   #397
Samson
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Samson: who in your opinion carried out all the murders in this case? Do you think the murderer also committed suicide within the farmhouse? And if so, how do you propose that this person committed suicide?
Elementary my dear Watson.
I have posted a few times how Sheila Caffell was confronted by June and Neville the simple notion that she should be relieved of all child caring duties.

Then they all ended dead in a few hours.

Just be patient for the perfectly true narrative. Jeremy Bamber is totally innocent and quite patient.

I bet both my arms Jeremy Bamber had nothing to do with these crimes that were capitilised by Anne Eaton.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 09:58 AM   #398
LondonJohn
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Elementary my dear Watson.
I have posted a few times how Sheila Caffell was confronted by June and Neville the simple notion that she should be relieved of all child caring duties.

Then they all ended dead in a few hours.

Just be patient for the perfectly true narrative. Jeremy Bamber is totally innocent and quite patient.

I bet both my arms Jeremy Bamber had nothing to do with these crimes that were capitilised by Anne Eaton.


But you didn't really answer my questions:

1) Who, in your opinion, carried out these killings?

2) If the person in your answer to (1) was one of those found dead within the farmhouse, then exactly how did that person kill himself/herself?
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