What Australians Really Think About Religion - Page 3

dann · 17th November 2019, 06:08 AM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

And one of the survey's most striking findings is the poor esteem in which religious leaders are held.

Why are they in such poor esteem in general? (I can see why Court is!)
In Denmark, I doubt that religious leaders are in any kind of esteem because they tend to be very inconspicuous.

Thor 2 · 17th November 2019, 01:59 PM

Originally Posted by dann

Why are they in such poor esteem in general? (I can see why Court is!)
In Denmark, I doubt that religious leaders are in any kind of esteem because they tend to be very inconspicuous.

Well child molesting and the covering up of same by church leaders would have a lot to do with it. The consistent negative attitude towards LGBT by a large (largest?) number of church leaders is another. When a church leader is exposed as a closet homosexual, it doesn't enhance his credibility much either.

psionl0 · 17th November 2019, 06:03 PM

Originally Posted by dann

Why are they in such poor esteem in general? (I can see why Court is!)
In Denmark, I doubt that religious leaders are in any kind of esteem because they tend to be very inconspicuous.

Royal Commissions and other inquiries have uncovered numerous cases of child sex abuse and cover ups by the clergy. Allegations have even ensnared George Pell who was one of the top ranking Vatican officials. He is now serving 6 years in prison. There is a thread about it (http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=321082).

Revelations of child sex abuse have received so much publicity that in the eyes of many, to be a member of the clergy is to automatically be a child sex abuser.

dann · 18th November 2019, 05:23 AM

I remember only one Danish case in recent years: The vicar from Tømmerup has been sentenced to 10 years in jail after several cases of sexual abuse of children (TV2, Aug. 28, 2018)
And I don't think that anybody in the clergy tried to defend him. If that had been the case, I guess that people here would also have been more likely to blame the whole church.

Thor 2 · 18th November 2019, 01:28 PM

Originally Posted by psionl0

Revelations of child sex abuse have received so much publicity that in the eyes of many, to be a member of the clergy is to automatically be a child sex abuser.

Originally Posted by dann

I remember only one Danish case in recent years: The vicar from Tømmerup has been sentenced to 10 years in jail after several cases of sexual abuse of children (TV2, Aug. 28, 2018)
And I don't think that anybody in the clergy tried to defend him. If that had been the case, I guess that people here would also have been more likely to blame the whole church.

Remarkable there have been so few cases in Denmark dann.

Mind you psion's remark is somewhat over the top. Unusual for someone who just sticks to the facts as stated in other threads.

arthwollipot · 18th November 2019, 08:10 PM

Originally Posted by Thor 2

Well child molesting and the covering up of same by church leaders would have a lot to do with it. The consistent negative attitude towards LGBT by a large (largest?) number of church leaders is another. When a church leader is exposed as a closet homosexual, it doesn't enhance his credibility much either.

LGBT acceptance by churches is still in a minority, so "largest" would be the appropriate term.

BadBoy · 29th November 2019, 12:07 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

I'm actually with Roger on this one.

Homophobia is not just confined to religion. It is just that those homophobes who are also religious will use their religion to justify their homophobia.

I'm not sure I do. As with most things like this there is probably a mixture. I am sure some churches have members who are homophobic and others that are not.

However, ideas have consequences and to suggest religious dogma has no affect on it's flock is I think wishful thinking.

People don't blow themselves up because they are fed up with living and so the religion just happened to give them an excuse to do it. You generally don't hear Muslims complain about stem cell research because their common view is that souls don't exist until 120 days after conception, plus some other B#$#it rules.

Religion quite obviously instructs various religious groups on their ethics and morals and unfortunately much of it comes from a time when peoples idea of morality was pretty bad.

The late great Christopher Hitchens once recounted a story of how a priest posed a question to him that went something like:
"If you were walking down a dark street in a city you were unfamiliar and noticed large group of men walking towards you, would you not feel better if you knew they had just come from a religious service of some denomination?"

His reply was something like:
"No and I have been in that situation, in Bagdad, Beirut, Belfast, Bosnia, " etc etc.

rjh01 · 29th November 2019, 04:09 AM

Here are Australians voting with their feet on religion. The % of people who get married by a minister of religion has gone down a lot.
1998 - 50.5% were performed by Ministers of religion
2008 - 35.0% were performed by Ministers of religion
2018 - 20.3% were performed by Ministers of religion
The alternative is Civil Celebrants.

Ref: https://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/mf/3310.0

Looks like in 2028 only 5% would be performed by Ministers of religion!

Thor 2 · 29th November 2019, 01:26 PM

Originally Posted by rjh01

Here are Australians voting with their feet on religion. The % of people who get married by a minister of religion has gone down a lot.
1998 - 50.5% were performed by Ministers of religion
2008 - 35.0% were performed by Ministers of religion
2018 - 20.3% were performed by Ministers of religion
The alternative is Civil Celebrants.

Ref: https://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/mf/3310.0

Looks like in 2028 only 5% would be performed by Ministers of religion!

Given that Ministers of religion are not considered to be trustworthy may have some bearing on this I imagine.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-11-...-most/11725448

Celebrities come out at the very bottom according to the survey so I imagine a lay preacher football celebrity like Israel Folau would not score well.

psionl0 · 29th November 2019, 05:26 PM

Originally Posted by BadBoy

I'm not sure I do. As with most things like this there is probably a mixture. I am sure some churches have members who are homophobic and others that are not.

However, ideas have consequences and to suggest religious dogma has no affect on it's flock is I think wishful thinking.

The context of my remark was whether comments by the likes of Israel Folau would make people homophobic.

People who have been indoctrinated since birth by a religious sect are a different category. Even then, the religious homophobics are more often than not using their religion to justify their actions even though their religion does not preach bullying homosexuals.

Thor 2 · 29th November 2019, 05:50 PM

Originally Posted by psionl0

The context of my remark was whether comments by the likes of Israel Folau would make people homophobic.

People who have been indoctrinated since birth by a religious sect are a different category. Even then, the religious homophobics are more often than not using their religion to justify their actions even though their religion does not preach bullying homosexuals.

Huh?

No, no bullying preached, just kill them.

Quote:

Leviticus 20:13 New International Version (NIV)

13 “‘If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

BadBoy · 29th November 2019, 05:59 PM

Originally Posted by psionl0

The context of my remark was whether comments by the likes of Israel Folau would make people homophobic.

People who have been indoctrinated since birth by a religious sect are a different category. Even then, the religious homophobics are more often than not using their religion to justify their actions even though their religion does not preach bullying homosexuals.

Israel Folau IS a product of his religion, thats the whole point. He may or may not convince others to become more homophobic, there is quite clearly no way to tell on that one - I suspect people are arn't will probably just think of him as a bigot.

In your last paragraph your first sentence contradicts your last sentence and you last point flys in the face of evidence much of the time. At the very least I dont think you could support your clain there with actual evidence.

I work with a guy, a very nice guy who happens to be catholic. I recently discovered he is anti homosexual. For him its a point of principle quite obviouly driven from his faith. He is not homophobic, he just think its wrong or "not natural". He hs tried to defend abstenance of the use of condoms in Africa and where morailty comes form. It is ALL informed by his religion.

I suggest, though I cannot prove it, there are many many many people jut like him.

psionl0 · 29th November 2019, 06:27 PM

Originally Posted by Thor 2

Huh?

No, no bullying preached, just kill them.

Is that what Folau is preaching?

psionl0 · 29th November 2019, 06:36 PM

Originally Posted by BadBoy

Israel Folau IS a product of his religion, thats the whole point.

Folau acturally grew up as a Mormon. I don't know (or care) what their exact teachings are about homosexuality but it is clear his hard line opinions only came about well after he joined the Assemblies of God in 2011. In fact as recently as 2015, he was claiming that there was no room for homophobia (in the game of rugby).

Originally Posted by BadBoy

In your last paragraph your first sentence contradicts your last sentence and you last point flys in the face of evidence much of the time. At the very least I dont think you could support your clain there with actual evidence.

I don't see any contradiction there. AFAIK no main stream Christian church advocates that their members go out and beat up gays (although some of the smaller religious sects might preach anything).

Originally Posted by BadBoy

I work with a guy, a very nice guy who happens to be catholic. I recently discovered he is anti homosexual. For him its a point of principle quite obviouly driven from his faith. He is not homophobic, he just think its wrong or "not natural". He hs tried to defend abstenance of the use of condoms in Africa and where morailty comes form. It is ALL informed by his religion.

I suggest, though I cannot prove it, there are many many many people jut like him.

You just summarized my position nicely. Christians might believe that homosexuality is "wrong" but that doesn't mean that they are going to bully gays or tell them that they are going to hell.

BadBoy · 29th November 2019, 08:25 PM

Originally Posted by psionl0

Folau acturally grew up as a Mormon. I don't know (or care) what their exact teachings are about homosexuality but it is clear his hard line opinions only came about well after he joined the Assemblies of God in 2011. In fact as recently as 2015, he was claiming that there was no room for homophobia (in the game of rugby).

I don't see any contradiction there. AFAIK no main stream Christian church advocates that their members go out and beat up gays (although some of the smaller religious sects might preach anything).

You just summarized my position nicely. Christians might believe that homosexuality is "wrong" but that doesn't mean that they are going to bully gays or tell them that they are going to hell.

People are being murdered for being Atheist and homosexuals thrown off buildings all driven by peoples religious dogma.

psionl0 · 29th November 2019, 11:49 PM

Originally Posted by BadBoy

People are being murdered for being Atheist and homosexuals thrown off buildings all driven by peoples religious dogma.

How many? Ten?

You have abandoned your previous pretext that "there is probably a mixture". Now it's ALL driven by religion.

Thor 2 · 30th November 2019, 01:11 PM

Originally Posted by psionl0

Is that what Folau is preaching?

Well somewhat worse than that as it seems. He wants to see homosexuals burning in Hell for eternityyyyyyyy.

Thor 2 · 30th November 2019, 01:24 PM

Originally Posted by BadBoy

Israel Folau IS a product of his religion, thats the whole point. He may or may not convince others to become more homophobic, there is quite clearly no way to tell on that one - I suspect people are arn't will probably just think of him as a bigot.

In your last paragraph your first sentence contradicts your last sentence and you last point flys in the face of evidence much of the time. At the very least I dont think you could support your clain there with actual evidence.

I work with a guy, a very nice guy who happens to be catholic. I recently discovered he is anti homosexual. For him its a point of principle quite obviouly driven from his faith. He is not homophobic, he just think its wrong or "not natural". He hs tried to defend abstenance of the use of condoms in Africa and where morailty comes form. It is ALL informed by his religion.

I suggest, though I cannot prove it, there are many many many people jut like him.

Yes that not natural thing seems a common mindset among the faithful. Stems from a conviction about God not being the author of things screwed up I think. I have some in my extended family who see demons as the explanation of this. Homosexual = someone possessed by a demon.

Any talk of the many animals who exhibit homosexual behaviour is just waved of.

Thor 2 · 30th November 2019, 02:34 PM

@ psion

I thought it more appropriate to post this here than on the other Scomo thread which is derailed enough already.

To prob you further on the question of religious faith guiding ones beliefs, I invite your comment about the following statement by Margaret Court, when justifying her boycotting of Qantas:

Quote:

The 76-year-old wrote that she believed in the traditional definition of marriage as stated in the Bible and that the airline had left her "no option but to use other airlines [where] possible for my extensive travelling".

Did religion have anything at all to do with her action in your opinion?

psionl0 · 1st December 2019, 05:48 PM

Originally Posted by Thor 2

Did religion have anything at all to do with her action in your opinion?

Are you asking me if religion has anything to do with somebody being religious?

Whatever you think you have proven about Margaret Court is only about Margaret Court. It doesn't prove anything about anybody else.

Thor 2 · 1st December 2019, 06:12 PM

Originally Posted by psionl0

Are you asking me if religion has anything to do with somebody being religious?

Whatever you think you have proven about Margaret Court is only about Margaret Court. It doesn't prove anything about anybody else.

Is what I am saying so hard to grasp or are you being deliberately obtuse?

Margaret Court boycotted Qantas as a direct result of her religious convictions. An action as a result of religious belief.

Given that you accept this you must concede that others, including Scomo, may take actions as a result of their religious convictions.

arthwollipot · 1st December 2019, 06:17 PM

If a celebrity makes a homophobic statement in public, other people see it and start to think that making such statements is okay.

That's how Folau makes people more homophobic. His publicly homophobic statements give people permission to make their own.

BadBoy · 1st December 2019, 06:39 PM

Originally Posted by psionl0

I don't see any contradiction there. AFAIK no main stream Christian church advocates that their members go out and beat up gays (although some of the smaller religious sects might preach anything).

You just summarized my position nicely. Christians might believe that homosexuality is "wrong" but that doesn't mean that they are going to bully gays or tell them that they are going to hell.

Happens all the time.

So would you say, in your opinion, if the Bible and Christianity stipulated that Homosexual people are all gods children should be allowed to marry within the Church, Lets say the second commandment was "Doeth no wrong to a man who loves and sleeps with another man, or a woman who loves and sleepeth with another woman as they are all gods children." and lets say it's been like that for 2000 years that the world in which Homosexuals live would be exactly the same?

To suggest that religion doesn't motivate some religious people to do and say bad things is a bit dumb. What was the quote, something like "good people do good things, bad people do bad things, but for a good person to do a bad thing, that takes religion.

psionl0 · 1st December 2019, 09:58 PM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

If a celebrity makes a homophobic statement in public, other people see it and start to think that making such statements is okay.

That's how Folau makes people more homophobic. His publicly homophobic statements give people permission to make their own.

And if somebody condemns homophobia it has no effect?

psionl0 · 1st December 2019, 10:00 PM

Originally Posted by Thor 2

Is what I am saying so hard to grasp or are you being deliberately obtuse?

Margaret Court boycotted Qantas as a direct result of her religious convictions. An action as a result of religious belief.

Given that you accept this you must concede that others, including Scomo, may take actions as a result of their religious convictions.

Why? Does Margaret Court control Scott Morrison?

arthwollipot · 1st December 2019, 10:01 PM

Originally Posted by psionl0

And if somebody condemns homophobia it has no effect?

Did I say that?

Norman Alexander · 1st December 2019, 10:04 PM

Originally Posted by psionl0

Why? Does Margaret Court control Scott Morrison?

No. Scott Morrison controls our government. And his religion controls him. A religion of mindless money-grubbing profit-driven submission to control-freaks. You may accept that. Others won't.

psionl0 · 2nd December 2019, 05:13 AM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Did I say that?

No, you haven't considered non-religious remarks made by non-religious public figures at all.

It's as if you believe that religious figures have a special magical power of influence that the others don't.

psionl0 · 2nd December 2019, 05:15 AM

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander

No. Scott Morrison controls our government. And his religion controls him. A religion of mindless money-grubbing profit-driven submission to control-freaks. You may accept that. Others won't.

As usual, a statement made without a skerrick of evidence.
- There is no evidence whatsoever that ScoMo's religion influences his actions as a politician.
- Even if it did, there is no way of knowing which beliefs influence him nor how they modify his actions.

All you have is pure CT.

Thor 2 · 2nd December 2019, 02:20 PM

Originally Posted by psionl0

Why? Does Margaret Court control Scott Morrison?

Your dodging the clearly asked question and deliberate obfuscation is so obvious your credibility is zero.

arthwollipot · 2nd December 2019, 04:25 PM

Originally Posted by psionl0

No, you haven't considered non-religious remarks made by non-religious public figures at all.

It's as if you believe that religious figures have a special magical power of influence that the others don't.

If you have a look at another thread, you will see that I have been talking about the power and influence that Greta Thunberg has had. The reason I haven't been doing so here is that it is not relevant.

Robin · 3rd December 2019, 11:33 PM

Originally Posted by psionl0

Are you asking me if religion has anything to do with somebody being religious?

Whatever you think you have proven about Margaret Court is only about Margaret Court. It doesn't prove anything about anybody else.

If someone said they wanted to have sex with a nine year old and happened to be a Muslim would you describe that as merely "being religious"?

Tassman · 4th December 2019, 12:02 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

As usual, a statement made without a skerrick of evidence.
- There is no evidence whatsoever that ScoMo's religion influences his actions as a politician.
- Even if it did, there is no way of knowing which beliefs influence him nor how they modify his actions.

All you have is pure CT.

He is a Pentecostal and regular churchgoer. My understanding is that the religious beliefs of such people are meant to influence their actions in ALL areas of life. Are you suggesting that he's merely a nominal Pentecostal?

psionl0 · 4th December 2019, 04:47 AM

Originally Posted by Robin

If someone said they wanted to have sex with a nine year old and happened to be a Muslim would you describe that as merely "being religious"?

Somebody indoctrinated by their religion to believe that sex with 9 year olds is ok (even ordained) then states that they want to have sex with a 9 year old.

How is that even remotely similar to Scott Morrison? That's crazy!

psionl0 · 4th December 2019, 04:50 AM

Originally Posted by Tassman

He is a Pentecostal and regular churchgoer. My understanding is that the religious beliefs of such people are meant to influence their actions in ALL areas of life. Are you suggesting that he's merely a nominal Pentecostal?

My understanding is that most church goers don't apply everything they have learned in a church to all areas of their life.

See how that works? Somebody's "understanding" isn't evidence of anything.

Thor 2 · 4th December 2019, 02:43 PM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

If you have a look at another thread, you will see that I have been talking about the power and influence that Greta Thunberg has had. The reason I haven't been doing so here is that it is not relevant.

The irrelevancy is irrelevant according to psion. You will have to try another tack. The colour of Scomo's underwear might have some mileage in it.

arthwollipot · 4th December 2019, 05:19 PM

Originally Posted by psionl0

My understanding is that most church goers don't apply everything they have learned in a church to all areas of their life.

See how that works? Somebody's "understanding" isn't evidence of anything.

I have expended great effort in sharing my personal lived experience as a member of a Pentecostal church. It's not my "understanding", it's my experience.

But you're right. Most churchgoers don't apply everything they have learned in a church to all areas of their life. Pentecostals do. They're unusual like that.

Robin · 4th December 2019, 06:01 PM

Originally Posted by psionl0

Somebody ~~indoctrinated by their religion to believe that sex with 9 year olds is ok (even ordained)~~ reads in their holy book that sex with 9 year olds is ok then states that they want to have sex with a 9 year old.

How is that even remotely similar to ~~Scott Morrison~~ Margaret Court? That's crazy!

FTFY

Your post that I was responding to was about Margaret Court, not Scott Morrison.

How is it similar? Margaret Court and others with similar opinion say that they were simply saying what was in their holy book.

Does any opinion or act become "practising religion" simply because it is in a holy book?

psionl0 · 4th December 2019, 06:39 PM

Originally Posted by Robin

FTFY

Your post that I was responding to was about Margaret Court, not Scott Morrison.

How is it similar? Margaret Court and others with similar opinion say that they were simply saying what was in their holy book.

Does any opinion or act become "practising religion" simply because it is in a holy book?

And the post your were responding to was in response to the claim that Margaret Courts acts (or preaches) according to her beliefs therefore Scott Morrison does. Hence my confusion.

Even so, this "sex with 9 year olds" analogy is still ridiculous. You should know that the bible is full of contradictory passages. Atheists here have even quoted passages that say there is no god. Many people pick and choose which which passages they want to believe or leave that up to their pastor.

Any similarity between Margaret Court's beliefs and those of a child molester are coincidental.

arthwollipot · 4th December 2019, 06:41 PM

For the record, I don't know whether Margaret Court is a Pentecostal.

17th November 2019, 06:08 AM	#81
dann Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 9,125	Originally Posted by arthwollipot And one of the survey's most striking findings is the poor esteem in which religious leaders are held. Why are they in such poor esteem in general? (I can see why Court is!) In Denmark, I doubt that religious leaders are in any kind of esteem because they tend to be very inconspicuous.
dann Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 9,125	__________________ /dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

17th November 2019, 01:59 PM	#82
Thor 2 Philosopher Join Date: May 2016 Location: Brisbane, Aust. Posts: 5,694	Originally Posted by dann Why are they in such poor esteem in general? (I can see why Court is!) In Denmark, I doubt that religious leaders are in any kind of esteem because they tend to be very inconspicuous. Well child molesting and the covering up of same by church leaders would have a lot to do with it. The consistent negative attitude towards LGBT by a large (largest?) number of church leaders is another. When a church leader is exposed as a closet homosexual, it doesn't enhance his credibility much either.
	__________________ Thinking is a faith hazard.

17th November 2019, 06:03 PM	#83
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 15,166	Originally Posted by dann Why are they in such poor esteem in general? (I can see why Court is!) In Denmark, I doubt that religious leaders are in any kind of esteem because they tend to be very inconspicuous. Royal Commissions and other inquiries have uncovered numerous cases of child sex abuse and cover ups by the clergy. Allegations have even ensnared George Pell who was one of the top ranking Vatican officials. He is now serving 6 years in prison. There is a thread about it (http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=321082). Revelations of child sex abuse have received so much publicity that in the eyes of many, to be a member of the clergy is to automatically be a child sex abuser.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

18th November 2019, 05:23 AM	#84
dann Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 9,125	I remember only one Danish case in recent years: The vicar from Tømmerup has been sentenced to 10 years in jail after several cases of sexual abuse of children (TV2, Aug. 28, 2018) And I don't think that anybody in the clergy tried to defend him. If that had been the case, I guess that people here would also have been more likely to blame the whole church.
dann Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 9,125	__________________ /dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

18th November 2019, 01:28 PM	#85
Thor 2 Philosopher Join Date: May 2016 Location: Brisbane, Aust. Posts: 5,694	Originally Posted by psionl0 Revelations of child sex abuse have received so much publicity that in the eyes of many, to be a member of the clergy is to automatically be a child sex abuser. Originally Posted by dann I remember only one Danish case in recent years: The vicar from Tømmerup has been sentenced to 10 years in jail after several cases of sexual abuse of children (TV2, Aug. 28, 2018) And I don't think that anybody in the clergy tried to defend him. If that had been the case, I guess that people here would also have been more likely to blame the whole church. Remarkable there have been so few cases in Denmark dann. Mind you psion's remark is somewhat over the top. Unusual for someone who just sticks to the facts as stated in other threads.
	__________________ Thinking is a faith hazard.

18th November 2019, 08:10 PM	#86
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Location, Location Posts: 64,605	Originally Posted by Thor 2 Well child molesting and the covering up of same by church leaders would have a lot to do with it. The consistent negative attitude towards LGBT by a large (largest?) number of church leaders is another. When a church leader is exposed as a closet homosexual, it doesn't enhance his credibility much either. LGBT acceptance by churches is still in a minority, so "largest" would be the appropriate term.
	__________________ Self-described nerd. Pronouns: He/Him My mom told me she tries never to make fun of people for not knowing something. - Randall Munroe

29th November 2019, 12:07 AM	#87
BadBoy Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 1,494	Originally Posted by psionl0 I'm actually with Roger on this one. Homophobia is not just confined to religion. It is just that those homophobes who are also religious will use their religion to justify their homophobia. I'm not sure I do. As with most things like this there is probably a mixture. I am sure some churches have members who are homophobic and others that are not. However, ideas have consequences and to suggest religious dogma has no affect on it's flock is I think wishful thinking. People don't blow themselves up because they are fed up with living and so the religion just happened to give them an excuse to do it. You generally don't hear Muslims complain about stem cell research because their common view is that souls don't exist until 120 days after conception, plus some other B#$#it rules. Religion quite obviously instructs various religious groups on their ethics and morals and unfortunately much of it comes from a time when peoples idea of morality was pretty bad. The late great Christopher Hitchens once recounted a story of how a priest posed a question to him that went something like: "If you were walking down a dark street in a city you were unfamiliar and noticed large group of men walking towards you, would you not feel better if you knew they had just come from a religious service of some denomination?" His reply was something like: "No and I have been in that situation, in Bagdad, Beirut, Belfast, Bosnia, " etc etc.
BadBoy Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 1,494	__________________ Go sell crazy someplace else we're all stocked up here Last edited by BadBoy; 29th November 2019 at 12:18 AM.

29th November 2019, 04:09 AM	#88
rjh01 Gentleman of leisure Tagger Join Date: May 2005 Location: Flying around in the sky Posts: 24,983	Here are Australians voting with their feet on religion. The % of people who get married by a minister of religion has gone down a lot. 1998 - 50.5% were performed by Ministers of religion 2008 - 35.0% were performed by Ministers of religion 2018 - 20.3% were performed by Ministers of religion The alternative is Civil Celebrants. Ref: https://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/mf/3310.0 Looks like in 2028 only 5% would be performed by Ministers of religion!
	__________________ This signature is for rent.

29th November 2019, 01:26 PM	#89
Thor 2 Philosopher Join Date: May 2016 Location: Brisbane, Aust. Posts: 5,694	Originally Posted by rjh01 Here are Australians voting with their feet on religion. The % of people who get married by a minister of religion has gone down a lot. 1998 - 50.5% were performed by Ministers of religion 2008 - 35.0% were performed by Ministers of religion 2018 - 20.3% were performed by Ministers of religion The alternative is Civil Celebrants. Ref: https://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/mf/3310.0 Looks like in 2028 only 5% would be performed by Ministers of religion! Given that Ministers of religion are not considered to be trustworthy may have some bearing on this I imagine. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-11-...-most/11725448 Celebrities come out at the very bottom according to the survey so I imagine a lay preacher football celebrity like Israel Folau would not score well.
	__________________ Thinking is a faith hazard.

29th November 2019, 05:26 PM	#90
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 15,166	Originally Posted by BadBoy I'm not sure I do. As with most things like this there is probably a mixture. I am sure some churches have members who are homophobic and others that are not. However, ideas have consequences and to suggest religious dogma has no affect on it's flock is I think wishful thinking. The context of my remark was whether comments by the likes of Israel Folau would make people homophobic. People who have been indoctrinated since birth by a religious sect are a different category. Even then, the religious homophobics are more often than not using their religion to justify their actions even though their religion does not preach bullying homosexuals.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975 Last edited by psionl0; 29th November 2019 at 05:28 PM.

29th November 2019, 05:50 PM	#91
Thor 2 Philosopher Join Date: May 2016 Location: Brisbane, Aust. Posts: 5,694	Originally Posted by psionl0 The context of my remark was whether comments by the likes of Israel Folau would make people homophobic. People who have been indoctrinated since birth by a religious sect are a different category. Even then, the religious homophobics are more often than not using their religion to justify their actions even though their religion does not preach bullying homosexuals. Huh? No, no bullying preached, just kill them. Quote: Leviticus 20:13 New International Version (NIV) 13 “‘If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
	__________________ Thinking is a faith hazard.

29th November 2019, 05:59 PM	#92
BadBoy Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 1,494	Originally Posted by psionl0 The context of my remark was whether comments by the likes of Israel Folau would make people homophobic. People who have been indoctrinated since birth by a religious sect are a different category. Even then, the religious homophobics are more often than not using their religion to justify their actions even though their religion does not preach bullying homosexuals. Israel Folau IS a product of his religion, thats the whole point. He may or may not convince others to become more homophobic, there is quite clearly no way to tell on that one - I suspect people are arn't will probably just think of him as a bigot. In your last paragraph your first sentence contradicts your last sentence and you last point flys in the face of evidence much of the time. At the very least I dont think you could support your clain there with actual evidence. I work with a guy, a very nice guy who happens to be catholic. I recently discovered he is anti homosexual. For him its a point of principle quite obviouly driven from his faith. He is not homophobic, he just think its wrong or "not natural". He hs tried to defend abstenance of the use of condoms in Africa and where morailty comes form. It is ALL informed by his religion. I suggest, though I cannot prove it, there are many many many people jut like him.
BadBoy Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 1,494	__________________ Go sell crazy someplace else we're all stocked up here

29th November 2019, 06:27 PM	#93
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 15,166	Originally Posted by Thor 2 Huh? No, no bullying preached, just kill them. Is that what Folau is preaching?
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

29th November 2019, 06:36 PM	#94
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 15,166	Originally Posted by BadBoy Israel Folau IS a product of his religion, thats the whole point. Folau acturally grew up as a Mormon. I don't know (or care) what their exact teachings are about homosexuality but it is clear his hard line opinions only came about well after he joined the Assemblies of God in 2011. In fact as recently as 2015, he was claiming that there was no room for homophobia (in the game of rugby). Originally Posted by BadBoy In your last paragraph your first sentence contradicts your last sentence and you last point flys in the face of evidence much of the time. At the very least I dont think you could support your clain there with actual evidence. I don't see any contradiction there. AFAIK no main stream Christian church advocates that their members go out and beat up gays (although some of the smaller religious sects might preach anything). Originally Posted by BadBoy I work with a guy, a very nice guy who happens to be catholic. I recently discovered he is anti homosexual. For him its a point of principle quite obviouly driven from his faith. He is not homophobic, he just think its wrong or "not natural". He hs tried to defend abstenance of the use of condoms in Africa and where morailty comes form. It is ALL informed by his religion. I suggest, though I cannot prove it, there are many many many people jut like him. You just summarized my position nicely. Christians might believe that homosexuality is "wrong" but that doesn't mean that they are going to bully gays or tell them that they are going to hell.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

29th November 2019, 08:25 PM	#95
BadBoy Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 1,494	Originally Posted by psionl0 Folau acturally grew up as a Mormon. I don't know (or care) what their exact teachings are about homosexuality but it is clear his hard line opinions only came about well after he joined the Assemblies of God in 2011. In fact as recently as 2015, he was claiming that there was no room for homophobia (in the game of rugby). I don't see any contradiction there. AFAIK no main stream Christian church advocates that their members go out and beat up gays (although some of the smaller religious sects might preach anything). You just summarized my position nicely. Christians might believe that homosexuality is "wrong" but that doesn't mean that they are going to bully gays or tell them that they are going to hell. People are being murdered for being Atheist and homosexuals thrown off buildings all driven by peoples religious dogma.
BadBoy Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 1,494	__________________ Go sell crazy someplace else we're all stocked up here

29th November 2019, 11:49 PM	#96
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 15,166	Originally Posted by BadBoy People are being murdered for being Atheist and homosexuals thrown off buildings all driven by peoples religious dogma. How many? Ten? You have abandoned your previous pretext that "there is probably a mixture". Now it's ALL driven by religion.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

30th November 2019, 01:11 PM	#97
Thor 2 Philosopher Join Date: May 2016 Location: Brisbane, Aust. Posts: 5,694	Originally Posted by psionl0 Is that what Folau is preaching? Well somewhat worse than that as it seems. He wants to see homosexuals burning in Hell for eternityyyyyyyy.
	__________________ Thinking is a faith hazard.

30th November 2019, 01:24 PM	#98
Thor 2 Philosopher Join Date: May 2016 Location: Brisbane, Aust. Posts: 5,694	Originally Posted by BadBoy Israel Folau IS a product of his religion, thats the whole point. He may or may not convince others to become more homophobic, there is quite clearly no way to tell on that one - I suspect people are arn't will probably just think of him as a bigot. In your last paragraph your first sentence contradicts your last sentence and you last point flys in the face of evidence much of the time. At the very least I dont think you could support your clain there with actual evidence. I work with a guy, a very nice guy who happens to be catholic. I recently discovered he is anti homosexual. For him its a point of principle quite obviouly driven from his faith. He is not homophobic, he just think its wrong or "not natural". He hs tried to defend abstenance of the use of condoms in Africa and where morailty comes form. It is ALL informed by his religion. I suggest, though I cannot prove it, there are many many many people jut like him. Yes that not natural thing seems a common mindset among the faithful. Stems from a conviction about God not being the author of things screwed up I think. I have some in my extended family who see demons as the explanation of this. Homosexual = someone possessed by a demon. Any talk of the many animals who exhibit homosexual behaviour is just waved of.
	__________________ Thinking is a faith hazard.

30th November 2019, 02:34 PM	#99
Thor 2 Philosopher Join Date: May 2016 Location: Brisbane, Aust. Posts: 5,694	@ psion I thought it more appropriate to post this here than on the other Scomo thread which is derailed enough already. To prob you further on the question of religious faith guiding ones beliefs, I invite your comment about the following statement by Margaret Court, when justifying her boycotting of Qantas: Quote: The 76-year-old wrote that she believed in the traditional definition of marriage as stated in the Bible and that the airline had left her "no option but to use other airlines [where] possible for my extensive travelling". Did religion have anything at all to do with her action in your opinion?
	__________________ Thinking is a faith hazard.

1st December 2019, 05:48 PM	#100
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 15,166	Originally Posted by Thor 2 Did religion have anything at all to do with her action in your opinion? Are you asking me if religion has anything to do with somebody being religious? Whatever you think you have proven about Margaret Court is only about Margaret Court. It doesn't prove anything about anybody else.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

1st December 2019, 06:12 PM	#101
Thor 2 Philosopher Join Date: May 2016 Location: Brisbane, Aust. Posts: 5,694	Originally Posted by psionl0 Are you asking me if religion has anything to do with somebody being religious? Whatever you think you have proven about Margaret Court is only about Margaret Court. It doesn't prove anything about anybody else. Is what I am saying so hard to grasp or are you being deliberately obtuse? Margaret Court boycotted Qantas as a direct result of her religious convictions. An action as a result of religious belief. Given that you accept this you must concede that others, including Scomo, may take actions as a result of their religious convictions.
	__________________ Thinking is a faith hazard.

1st December 2019, 06:17 PM	#102
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Location, Location Posts: 64,605	If a celebrity makes a homophobic statement in public, other people see it and start to think that making such statements is okay. That's how Folau makes people more homophobic. His publicly homophobic statements give people permission to make their own.
	__________________ Self-described nerd. Pronouns: He/Him My mom told me she tries never to make fun of people for not knowing something. - Randall Munroe

1st December 2019, 06:39 PM	#103
BadBoy Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 1,494	Originally Posted by psionl0 I don't see any contradiction there. AFAIK no main stream Christian church advocates that their members go out and beat up gays (although some of the smaller religious sects might preach anything). You just summarized my position nicely. Christians might believe that homosexuality is "wrong" but that doesn't mean that they are going to bully gays or tell them that they are going to hell. Happens all the time. So would you say, in your opinion, if the Bible and Christianity stipulated that Homosexual people are all gods children should be allowed to marry within the Church, Lets say the second commandment was "Doeth no wrong to a man who loves and sleeps with another man, or a woman who loves and sleepeth with another woman as they are all gods children." and lets say it's been like that for 2000 years that the world in which Homosexuals live would be exactly the same? To suggest that religion doesn't motivate some religious people to do and say bad things is a bit dumb. What was the quote, something like "good people do good things, bad people do bad things, but for a good person to do a bad thing, that takes religion.
BadBoy Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 1,494	__________________ Go sell crazy someplace else we're all stocked up here Last edited by BadBoy; 1st December 2019 at 06:44 PM.

1st December 2019, 09:58 PM	#104
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 15,166	Originally Posted by arthwollipot If a celebrity makes a homophobic statement in public, other people see it and start to think that making such statements is okay. That's how Folau makes people more homophobic. His publicly homophobic statements give people permission to make their own. And if somebody condemns homophobia it has no effect?
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

1st December 2019, 10:00 PM	#105
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 15,166	Originally Posted by Thor 2 Is what I am saying so hard to grasp or are you being deliberately obtuse? Margaret Court boycotted Qantas as a direct result of her religious convictions. An action as a result of religious belief. Given that you accept this you must concede that others, including Scomo, may take actions as a result of their religious convictions. Why? Does Margaret Court control Scott Morrison?
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

1st December 2019, 10:01 PM	#106
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Location, Location Posts: 64,605	Originally Posted by psionl0 And if somebody condemns homophobia it has no effect? Did I say that?
	__________________ Self-described nerd. Pronouns: He/Him My mom told me she tries never to make fun of people for not knowing something. - Randall Munroe

1st December 2019, 10:04 PM	#107
Norman Alexander Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 6,431	Originally Posted by psionl0 Why? Does Margaret Court control Scott Morrison? No. Scott Morrison controls our government. And his religion controls him. A religion of mindless money-grubbing profit-driven submission to control-freaks. You may accept that. Others won't.
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

2nd December 2019, 05:13 AM	#108
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 15,166	Originally Posted by arthwollipot Did I say that? No, you haven't considered non-religious remarks made by non-religious public figures at all. It's as if you believe that religious figures have a special magical power of influence that the others don't.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

2nd December 2019, 05:15 AM	#109
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 15,166	Originally Posted by Norman Alexander No. Scott Morrison controls our government. And his religion controls him. A religion of mindless money-grubbing profit-driven submission to control-freaks. You may accept that. Others won't. As usual, a statement made without a skerrick of evidence. - There is no evidence whatsoever that ScoMo's religion influences his actions as a politician. - Even if it did, there is no way of knowing which beliefs influence him nor how they modify his actions. All you have is pure CT.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

2nd December 2019, 02:20 PM	#110
Thor 2 Philosopher Join Date: May 2016 Location: Brisbane, Aust. Posts: 5,694	Originally Posted by psionl0 Why? Does Margaret Court control Scott Morrison? Your dodging the clearly asked question and deliberate obfuscation is so obvious your credibility is zero.
	__________________ Thinking is a faith hazard.

2nd December 2019, 04:25 PM	#111
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Location, Location Posts: 64,605	Originally Posted by psionl0 No, you haven't considered non-religious remarks made by non-religious public figures at all. It's as if you believe that religious figures have a special magical power of influence that the others don't. If you have a look at another thread, you will see that I have been talking about the power and influence that Greta Thunberg has had. The reason I haven't been doing so here is that it is not relevant.
	__________________ Self-described nerd. Pronouns: He/Him My mom told me she tries never to make fun of people for not knowing something. - Randall Munroe

3rd December 2019, 11:33 PM	#112
Robin Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 11,009	Originally Posted by psionl0 Are you asking me if religion has anything to do with somebody being religious? Whatever you think you have proven about Margaret Court is only about Margaret Court. It doesn't prove anything about anybody else. If someone said they wanted to have sex with a nine year old and happened to be a Muslim would you describe that as merely "being religious"?
	__________________ The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"

4th December 2019, 12:02 AM	#113
Tassman Muse Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 936	Originally Posted by psionl0 As usual, a statement made without a skerrick of evidence. - There is no evidence whatsoever that ScoMo's religion influences his actions as a politician. - Even if it did, there is no way of knowing which beliefs influence him nor how they modify his actions. All you have is pure CT. He is a Pentecostal and regular churchgoer. My understanding is that the religious beliefs of such people are meant to influence their actions in ALL areas of life. Are you suggesting that he's merely a nominal Pentecostal?
Tassman Muse Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 936	__________________ “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” ― Douglas Adams.

4th December 2019, 04:47 AM	#114
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 15,166	Originally Posted by Robin If someone said they wanted to have sex with a nine year old and happened to be a Muslim would you describe that as merely "being religious"? Somebody indoctrinated by their religion to believe that sex with 9 year olds is ok (even ordained) then states that they want to have sex with a 9 year old. How is that even remotely similar to Scott Morrison? That's crazy!
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

4th December 2019, 04:50 AM	#115
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 15,166	Originally Posted by Tassman He is a Pentecostal and regular churchgoer. My understanding is that the religious beliefs of such people are meant to influence their actions in ALL areas of life. Are you suggesting that he's merely a nominal Pentecostal? My understanding is that most church goers don't apply everything they have learned in a church to all areas of their life. See how that works? Somebody's "understanding" isn't evidence of anything.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975