ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Trials and Errors
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags jeremy bamber , Julie Mugford , murder cases , Nevill Bamber , Sheila Bamber

Reply
Old 21st September 2015, 12:50 PM   #41
MikeG
Now. Do it now.
 
MikeG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 24,804
Originally Posted by Desert Fox View Post
Might I ask what the most common use of shotguns are in the UK countryside?
Mostly, this is just curiosity.........
Shooting pheasants for sport. This is massive, with some farmers earning more from that than from farming. Shooting rabbits and pigeons, probably the two biggest pests in this arable farming area.

You may be interested to know that it is an offence to travel with them loaded, and that etiquette, strictly adhered to, is that whenever they are not about to be fired, they are opened. Obviously, they have to be stored in a locked gun safe, which can be inspected by the police without notice.
__________________
"The Conservatives want to keep wogs out and march boldly back to the 1950s when Britain still had an Empire and blacks, women, poofs and Irish knew their place." The Don That's what we've sunk to here.

Last edited by MikeG; 21st September 2015 at 12:57 PM.
MikeG is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st September 2015, 01:14 PM   #42
Desert Fox
Philosopher
 
Desert Fox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 6,147
Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Shooting pheasants for sport. This is massive, with some farmers earning more from that than from farming. Shooting rabbits and pigeons, probably the two biggest pests in this arable farming area.

You may be interested to know that it is an offence to travel with them loaded, and that etiquette, strictly adhered to, is that whenever they are not about to be fired, they are opened. Obviously, they have to be stored in a locked gun safe, which can be inspected by the police without notice.
I do not believe that in 1985, the rules were that restrictive in the UK with regards to rifles and shotguns at least.
__________________
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt."
- - - -Bertrand Russell
Desert Fox is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st September 2015, 01:20 PM   #43
anglolawyer
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Guilford
Posts: 13,037
Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Shooting pheasants for sport. This is massive, with some farmers earning more from that than from farming. Shooting rabbits and pigeons, probably the two biggest pests in this arable farming area.

You may be interested to know that it is an offence to travel with them loaded, and that etiquette, strictly adhered to, is that whenever they are not about to be fired, they are opened. Obviously, they have to be stored in a locked gun safe, which can be inspected by the police without notice.
This is an important issue in the Bamber case as Nevill seems to have had guns lying around all over the place, in breach of the terms of his licence. In fact, when he drew a plan of the farmhouse for the tactical firearms people during the 'siege' Bamber included two rifles in the depiction of the kitchen.

Nevill must have taken 2-3 minutes at least calling Bamber when he could instead have defended himself and his family from Sheila with one of the firearms lying around.
anglolawyer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st September 2015, 01:27 PM   #44
MikeG
Now. Do it now.
 
MikeG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 24,804
Originally Posted by Desert Fox View Post
I do not believe that in 1985, the rules were that restrictive in the UK with regards to rifles and shotguns at least.
Yeah they were.

However, enforcement of the rules has always been notoriously slack, at least within the home. In contrast, if you fired a shotgun near a road or public footpath, or were seen driving around with an unsecured gun, the sky would fall in on your head.
__________________
"The Conservatives want to keep wogs out and march boldly back to the 1950s when Britain still had an Empire and blacks, women, poofs and Irish knew their place." The Don That's what we've sunk to here.
MikeG is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st September 2015, 01:29 PM   #45
MikeG
Now. Do it now.
 
MikeG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 24,804
Originally Posted by anglolawyer View Post
......Nevill must have taken 2-3 minutes at least calling Bamber when he could instead have defended himself and his family from Sheila with one of the firearms lying around.
Not if they weren't in his bedroom. If they were only loose in his kitchen maybe that's the reason he headed to the kitchen once injured.
__________________
"The Conservatives want to keep wogs out and march boldly back to the 1950s when Britain still had an Empire and blacks, women, poofs and Irish knew their place." The Don That's what we've sunk to here.
MikeG is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st September 2015, 01:37 PM   #46
anglolawyer
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Guilford
Posts: 13,037
Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Not if they weren't in his bedroom. If they were only loose in his kitchen maybe that's the reason he headed to the kitchen once injured.
We know he made it to the kitchen. He may simply have been trying to escape out the kitchen door. If shot through the jaw, badly smashing his face, and in the left arm and in the back, he probably wasn't in a state to find and fire a gun.

He can't have been injured when he made the supposed call as his speech was normal and there was no blood on the phone. So we have to imagine that he was fit and fully able to defend himself while in the kitchen on Bamber's account. That means he chose to make this bizarre call rather than blaze away with a shotgun or run outside to save himself.
anglolawyer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st September 2015, 01:46 PM   #47
MikeG
Now. Do it now.
 
MikeG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 24,804
I'll certainly concede that this course of action seems odd.

Do we know where he was when he was first shot?
__________________
"The Conservatives want to keep wogs out and march boldly back to the 1950s when Britain still had an Empire and blacks, women, poofs and Irish knew their place." The Don That's what we've sunk to here.
MikeG is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st September 2015, 02:21 PM   #48
MikeG
Now. Do it now.
 
MikeG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 24,804
I guess the single most often (in the pub) cited piece of questioning of the verdict revolves around the death of Sheila. I've seen this re-enacted by the not-quite-sober more than once: how do you kill someone using a rifle in such a way as for it to appear to be suicide?
__________________
"The Conservatives want to keep wogs out and march boldly back to the 1950s when Britain still had an Empire and blacks, women, poofs and Irish knew their place." The Don That's what we've sunk to here.
MikeG is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st September 2015, 02:38 PM   #49
Desert Fox
Philosopher
 
Desert Fox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 6,147
Originally Posted by anglolawyer View Post
This is an important issue in the Bamber case as Nevill seems to have had guns lying around all over the place, in breach of the terms of his licence. In fact, when he drew a plan of the farmhouse for the tactical firearms people during the 'siege' Bamber included two rifles in the depiction of the kitchen.

Nevill must have taken 2-3 minutes at least calling Bamber when he could instead have defended himself and his family from Sheila with one of the firearms lying around.
Except he probably did not want to shoot her but instead calm her down

Edit: Think of it this way - imagine your daughter going crazy, can you kill her? One of the classic rules of firearms is that once you pull a firearm, you better be prepared to use it.
__________________
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt."
- - - -Bertrand Russell

Last edited by Desert Fox; 21st September 2015 at 02:50 PM.
Desert Fox is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st September 2015, 02:42 PM   #50
Samson
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 8,518
Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
I guess the single most often (in the pub) cited piece of questioning of the verdict revolves around the death of Sheila. I've seen this re-enacted by the not-quite-sober more than once: how do you kill someone using a rifle in such a way as for it to appear to be suicide?
I see the only way for this to work was to shoot her first. He could enter silently, and if she woke up, abort the mission. But Catsmate says she slept through it. What sort of a plan would have that as a realistic expectation?

ETA But this would seem to have its own problems, why two shots? If the first shot was only a wound, she would immediately be out of position for the killing shot, and if the first shot killed, why risk the plan by making it an unlikely two shot suicide?

Last edited by Samson; 21st September 2015 at 02:47 PM.
Samson is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2015, 02:13 AM   #51
anglolawyer
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Guilford
Posts: 13,037
Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
I'll certainly concede that this course of action seems odd.

Do we know where he was when he was first shot?
The hypothesis is that he was in the bedroom but because the cops stripped all the bloodied wallpaper and carpets the next day (can you believe that?) it ceased to be possible to distinguish his blood from anyone else's.

Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
I guess the single most often (in the pub) cited piece of questioning of the verdict revolves around the death of Sheila. I've seen this re-enacted by the not-quite-sober more than once: how do you kill someone using a rifle in such a way as for it to appear to be suicide?
Easy. Well, sort of. I figure it this way. Bamber points the rifle at her and tells her to do as he says and she will be safe. She complies. He orders her into the master bedroom and tells her to close her eyes. When she does he fires upward through her throat. That first shot went up and back so one can imagine the rifle was angled a bit. She fell to the floor, probably crumpled. He straightened her out, noticing she wasn't dead, and put a second bullet into her this time holding the rifle horizontally.

This business of straightening her out is important. She was found straight. That's not how she would have fallen. At the 2002 appeal the prosecution wanted to introduce evidence of its own from a Dr Ismail. This evidence purported to prove her body had been pulled by the feet once on the floor. Supposedly it meant suicide was impossible. The funny thing is, there is a pair of photographs which seem to show she was moved in that fashion after the police had control of the crime scene.

It would be awesome to see that report. The appeal judges did not allow it to be used although they evidently found it telling. Very, very mysterious.
anglolawyer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2015, 02:16 AM   #52
anglolawyer
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Guilford
Posts: 13,037
Originally Posted by Desert Fox View Post
Except he probably did not want to shoot her but instead calm her down

Edit: Think of it this way - imagine your daughter going crazy, can you kill her? One of the classic rules of firearms is that once you pull a firearm, you better be prepared to use it.
Well, if she is threatening you, your wife and your grandchildren I would think it a distinct possibility, but not a certainty, you're right. However, I find the phone call to Bamber vastly less credible both in practical and logical terms.
anglolawyer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2015, 02:17 AM   #53
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 21,328
Originally Posted by Desert Fox View Post
Congratulations, you just demonstrated Moving the Goalposts.
Nope.

Originally Posted by Desert Fox View Post
The articles argued that simply time or movement can destroy gunshot residue which would already be minimal from a .22 rifle.
And I pointed out that Sheila, should one accept the ludicrous theory that she was the killer, fired 25 shots. Even if one was to accept the idea that all the powder residue from the four murders disappeared somehow, the final two shots would have been fired by her while hugging the rifle. After that there'd be little movement from Sheila...

Originally Posted by Desert Fox View Post
By the way, a standard .22 LR has only 1.25 grains or something like .08 grams of powder using modern smokeless powders. It is minuscule and if they were using subsonic, it would probably be less.
But still a detectable amount. There's also the lead residue, or rather the lack of it, from reloading at least twice.
And 25 shots, even with 1.25gr each, is equivalent to six or seven 9x19mm shots, would you dismiss such a discharge?

Originally Posted by anglolawyer View Post
Well, I'm lining up with Catsmate. Guilty. As I'm already discussing this in two other places I'm not sure I want to get too involved here.
Really? Wow it does seem a popular topic. Really it's not like there's a huge amount of doubt in the conviction.

Originally Posted by anglolawyer View Post
My position is highly provisional as there is much I don't know about the case but essentially:

1 I believe Julie Mugford, and
2 I completely fail to buy the three phone calls:
(a) Nevill to Bamber
(b) Bamber to Julie, and
(c) Bamber to the cops

(c) and (b) may be in the wrong order but that's Bamber's fault as he contradicted himself about who he called first.
Plus there's no evidence that (a) ever happened. Rather damning that.

Originally Posted by anglolawyer View Post
That said, the case was submerged beneath an all but impenetrable blanker of police incompetence certainly and perhaps, as some argue, corruption, so getting to the bottom of it is far from easy.
Oh hell yes. A complete mess, especially from the golf playing DCI Jones who bought Bamber's lies until his subordinates starting showing him the problems.
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2015, 02:26 AM   #54
anglolawyer
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Guilford
Posts: 13,037
I'm nothing like as strident about this one as you, Catsmate. There's a lot of dodgy stuff here and plenty to argue about. Indeed, I reserve the right to wobble back and forth in a decidedly feeble fashion. However, for the moment, I'm PPG (provisionally pro-guilt).
anglolawyer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2015, 02:30 AM   #55
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 21,328
Originally Posted by anglolawyer View Post
Nevill must have taken 2-3 minutes at least calling Bamber when he could instead have defended himself and his family from Sheila with one of the firearms lying around.
Or overpowered her. Even after the first shots he was still far bigger and should have prevailed in a fight.
Of course in reality Nevill and Sheila never struggled; there were no injuries on her, or damage to her clothes, from such a struggle.

Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Not if they weren't in his bedroom. If they were only loose in his kitchen maybe that's the reason he headed to the kitchen once injured.
It's likely he was trying to telephone for help.
Oddly the phone that was normally in his bedroom had been removed and plugged into the socket in the kitchen while the kitchen phone had been removed and hidden.
Not something can could be reasonably attributed to Sheila acting impulsively.
But quite in keeping with Bamber's planned murders.

Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
I guess the single most often (in the pub) cited piece of questioning of the verdict revolves around the death of Sheila. I've seen this re-enacted by the not-quite-sober more than once: how do you kill someone using a rifle in such a way as for it to appear to be suicide?
She was under the influence of haloperidol, this may have slowed her.
The PM indicates that she was sitting when the shots were fired, it's possible that she was taken unawares and killed quickly and then moved to the master bedroom. Or forced by Bamber at gunpoint or by threat to her children. The pathologist was unable to say conclusively if her death was murder or suicide based purely on her body.
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2015, 02:45 AM   #56
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 21,328
Originally Posted by Samson View Post
I see the only way for this to work was to shoot her first. He could enter silently, and if she woke up, abort the mission. But Catsmate says she slept through it. What sort of a plan would have that as a realistic expectation?
No I didn't.

Originally Posted by Samson View Post
ETA But this would seem to have its own problems, why two shots? If the first shot was only a wound, she would immediately be out of position for the killing shot, and if the first shot killed, why risk the plan by making it an unlikely two shot suicide?
The first wound, to her throat, would have killed her fairly quickly, within minutes. The second was almost immediately fatal.

Originally Posted by anglolawyer View Post
Well, if she is threatening you, your wife and your grandchildren I would think it a distinct possibility, but not a certainty, you're right. However, I find the phone call to Bamber vastly less credible both in practical and logical terms.
But if Sheila was threatening Nevill the kids weren't there. And if she'd killed June already then Neill would have known that he life was in immediate danger.

Originally Posted by anglolawyer View Post
I'm nothing like as strident about this one as you, Catsmate.
I find it annoying how many seemingly rational people fall for Bamber's self-serving lies and are perfectly happy to slander Sheila Caffell in the process.
And then there are the truly ludicrous theories about a police conspiracy with Boutflour/Eaton.

Originally Posted by anglolawyer View Post
There's a lot of dodgy stuff here and plenty to argue about. Indeed, I reserve the right to wobble back and forth in a decidedly feeble fashion. However, for the moment, I'm PPG (provisionally pro-guilt).
Wobble all you like (just not fatally). There were a lot of mistakes made in the investigation.
However one of the factors that causes me to dismiss the idea of police misconduct (rather than stupidity) is the lack of motivation for such. The White House Farm murders just don't match the typical cases; while there was immense public and media interest the police had a ready-made solution in the form of Bamber's lies about his sister and the press lapped it up. The pressure on the police to solve the case simply wasn't there.
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2015, 02:46 AM   #57
Samson
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 8,518
Originally Posted by anglolawyer View Post
The hypothesis is that he was in the bedroom but because the cops stripped all the bloodied wallpaper and carpets the next day (can you believe that?) it ceased to be possible to distinguish his blood from anyone else's.


Easy. Well, sort of. I figure it this way. Bamber points the rifle at her and tells her to do as he says and she will be safe. She complies. He orders her into the master bedroom and tells her to close her eyes. When she does he fires upward through her throat. That first shot went up and back so one can imagine the rifle was angled a bit. She fell to the floor, probably crumpled. He straightened her out, noticing she wasn't dead, and put a second bullet into her this time holding the rifle horizontally.

This business of straightening her out is important. She was found straight. That's not how she would have fallen. At the 2002 appeal the prosecution wanted to introduce evidence of its own from a Dr Ismail. This evidence purported to prove her body had been pulled by the feet once on the floor. Supposedly it meant suicide was impossible. The funny thing is, there is a pair of photographs which seem to show she was moved in that fashion after the police had control of the crime scene.

It would be awesome to see that report. The appeal judges did not allow it to be used although they evidently found it telling. Very, very mysterious.
It is absolutely amazing how form trumps function to keep people in jail in these cases. Constrain the pursuit of truth to legal protocols, and it does everything for the system, and nothing for justice.
This will change with the internet age, but there is a lead time we are engaging with.
Samson is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2015, 03:41 AM   #58
MikeG
Now. Do it now.
 
MikeG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 24,804
Another detail which has intrigued me is the report from one of the first officers to look into the kitchen that there were TWO bodies there......Neville & Sheila. Jeremy, of course, had been with the police continuously for about 4 hours, and indeed, the police had reported hearing and seeing movement from within the house during this period. Yet, when they eventually gained entry to the house, there was only one body in the kitchen, and Sheila was upstairs, dead, but with still-flowing blood (this shows quite clearly in the police photos). That needs explaining before Jeremy is guilty.
__________________
"The Conservatives want to keep wogs out and march boldly back to the 1950s when Britain still had an Empire and blacks, women, poofs and Irish knew their place." The Don That's what we've sunk to here.
MikeG is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2015, 05:20 AM   #59
Samson
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 8,518
Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Another detail which has intrigued me is the report from one of the first officers to look into the kitchen that there were TWO bodies there......Neville & Sheila. Jeremy, of course, had been with the police continuously for about 4 hours, and indeed, the police had reported hearing and seeing movement from within the house during this period. Yet, when they eventually gained entry to the house, there was only one body in the kitchen, and Sheila was upstairs, dead, but with still-flowing blood (this shows quite clearly in the police photos). That needs explaining before Jeremy is guilty.
It seems to turn on 20 year old Julie Mugford's very detailed statement. She is specific about times of a great number of events post the homicides. There is no chance they are contained within spontaneous testimony. All the times are specified, for days and weeks in 10 minute rounded notation. It is suggested on IA that and elsewhere that she was coached.
Can a 20 year old be coached as jilted lover to create the villain of English history?
Hell, I don't know.
Samson is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2015, 05:36 AM   #60
anglolawyer
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Guilford
Posts: 13,037
Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Another detail which has intrigued me is the report from one of the first officers to look into the kitchen that there were TWO bodies there......Neville & Sheila. Jeremy, of course, had been with the police continuously for about 4 hours, and indeed, the police had reported hearing and seeing movement from within the house during this period. Yet, when they eventually gained entry to the house, there was only one body in the kitchen, and Sheila was upstairs, dead, but with still-flowing blood (this shows quite clearly in the police photos). That needs explaining before Jeremy is guilty.
That's an easy one . When they looked through the window they thought they saw a female body but when they entered they realised it was male. Back at the note-taking end they recorded one female and one male. Those who wish to argue that Sheila was dead on the kitchen floor but the cops thought it would be a spiffing wheeze to lug her upstairs are welcome to indulge their fantasies. I could use a larf.
anglolawyer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2015, 05:49 AM   #61
MikeG
Now. Do it now.
 
MikeG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 24,804
Well, indeed. Further, she contradicted herself, and may well not have written all of her statement herself. She was in the pay of the News of the World before, during and after the trial, and had 32 interviews with the police. Most disturbing of all is that she continued to live with JB after the murders. Now, if you knew that someone had slaughtered their family, would this be a sensible course of action?
__________________
"The Conservatives want to keep wogs out and march boldly back to the 1950s when Britain still had an Empire and blacks, women, poofs and Irish knew their place." The Don That's what we've sunk to here.
MikeG is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2015, 05:49 AM   #62
anglolawyer
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Guilford
Posts: 13,037
Catsmate - the whole phone mystery is a red herring, probably (with an interesting twist - see below). There were normally four phones at the farm, all sharing off one line. There was an office phone, which we can forget about, a kitchen phone, a cordless phone and an old fashioned rotary phone which was usually in the master bedroom.

The family mostly used the cordless and, according to Barbara Wilson, Nevill's secretary, they occasionally used that one in the kitchen when the cordless one was not available. They didn't like using the kitchen phone.

When the bodies were found, the kitchen phone was found to be 'hidden' under a pile of magazines in the kitchen, the bedroom phone was plugged into the kitchen socket, the cordless phone was out for repair and the office phone was in the office (I said forget the office phone). The handset was off the rotary phone.

This led to speculation that Bamber had pulled some stunt with the phones, switching things around, 'hiding' the kitchen phone etc but the truth is likely more banal (except for one thing).

The cordless phone, it so happens, had been sent for repair a couple of days before and so it seems likely, as they had before, that they had simply brought the bedroom phone downstairs. The kitchen phone was not 'hidden' under magazines. It was just under magazines. They didn't like using it. End of.

But, there are two things I find interesting about all this. One is the fact that the cordless phone stopped working only two days before. Did Bamber do that, knowing the bedroom phone would be brought down (or bringing it down himself) and thus ensuring no 999 call could be made from the bedroom as he trudged across the gravel with the dogs barking (a labrador called Bruno which slept in the barn and a rat like crapulous little ****** Shitzu piece of crap dog that slept in the kitchen and yapped a lot)? I think maybe.

The other thing is that in the version of the plan he imparted to Julie, he told her the hitman he had hired had been told to use the cordless phones memory function to call Bamber so there would be a preserved record of the fact of the call. I don't know when he told her this but I'm thinking this was plan A but he switched to plan B without telling her.

Last edited by anglolawyer; 22nd September 2015 at 05:51 AM.
anglolawyer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2015, 05:52 AM   #63
anglolawyer
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Guilford
Posts: 13,037
Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Well, indeed. Further, she contradicted herself, and may well not have written all of her statement herself. She was in the pay of the News of the World before, during and after the trial, and had 32 interviews with the police. Most disturbing of all is that she continued to live with JB after the murders. Now, if you knew that someone had slaughtered their family, would this be a sensible course of action?
Yes, if you were in on the whole thing and expecting your share.
anglolawyer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2015, 05:52 AM   #64
MikeG
Now. Do it now.
 
MikeG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 24,804
Originally Posted by anglolawyer View Post
That's an easy one . When they looked through the window they thought they saw a female body but when they entered they realised it was male. Back at the note-taking end they recorded one female and one male. Those who wish to argue that Sheila was dead on the kitchen floor but the cops thought it would be a spiffing wheeze to lug her upstairs are welcome to indulge their fantasies. I could use a larf.
Her first wound was declared by an expert at the trial not to have even severely incapacitated her. There is no need for the police to have lugged her body upstairs if she walked upstairs and shot herself again. Further, the police report wasn't 2 different people, one mistaking the body of Neville for a female......it was two officers (I think) each saying they saw two bodies in the kitchen.
__________________
"The Conservatives want to keep wogs out and march boldly back to the 1950s when Britain still had an Empire and blacks, women, poofs and Irish knew their place." The Don That's what we've sunk to here.
MikeG is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2015, 05:54 AM   #65
anglolawyer
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Guilford
Posts: 13,037
Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Her first wound was declared by an expert at the trial not to have even severely incapacitated her. There is no need for the police to have lugged her body upstairs if she walked upstairs and shot herself again. Further, the police report wasn't 2 different people, one mistaking the body of Neville for a female......it was two officers (I think) each saying they saw two bodies in the kitchen.
Citation please ...
anglolawyer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2015, 06:08 AM   #66
MikeG
Now. Do it now.
 
MikeG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 24,804
Originally Posted by anglolawyer View Post
Citation please ...
I read it yesterday evening. I'll come back to this later, when I've got a moment.
__________________
"The Conservatives want to keep wogs out and march boldly back to the 1950s when Britain still had an Empire and blacks, women, poofs and Irish knew their place." The Don That's what we've sunk to here.
MikeG is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2015, 06:09 AM   #67
anglolawyer
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Guilford
Posts: 13,037
Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
I read it yesterday evening. I'll come back to this later, when I've got a moment.
I think you heard it in the pub
anglolawyer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2015, 07:40 AM   #68
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 21,328
Originally Posted by Samson View Post
It is absolutely amazing how form trumps function to keep people in jail in these cases. Constrain the pursuit of truth to legal protocols, and it does everything for the system, and nothing for justice.
This will change with the internet age, but there is a lead time we are engaging with.
Yet you've failed to address the evidence for Bamber's guilt. Try dealing with that 'function'.

Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Another detail which has intrigued me is the report from one of the first officers to look into the kitchen that there were TWO bodies there......Neville & Sheila. <snip>
That needs explaining before Jeremy is guilty.
And it was explained, in some detail, at the CCRC hearing. One of the responding officers looked through the window and say Nevill's body but, as he had only a partial view, believed the body was female and reporting seeing a female body. When the kitchen door was forced the officers saw Nevill's body and reported that fact, stating that a male body had been found. In the CAD room the two reports were conflated and it was believed that two bodies were in the kitchen. No-one at the scene reported seeing two bodies in the kitchen.

From such molehills doth spring mountains...

And BTW the conjecture that the mythical "second body" was Sheilas is rubbish; if she'd been walking around after the first gunshot wound (medically possible) there would have been far more blood on her nightdress. Plus the timeline doesn't make sense.

Originally Posted by Samson View Post
It seems to turn on 20 year old Julie Mugford's very detailed statement.
And the evidence of course.
Originally Posted by Samson View Post
She is specific about times of a great number of events post the homicides.
Yes, and?

Originally Posted by Samson View Post
There is no chance they are contained within spontaneous testimony.
Unsupported assertion.

Originally Posted by Samson View Post
All the times are specified, for days and weeks in 10 minute rounded notation. It is suggested on IA that and elsewhere that she was coached.
Can a 20 year old be coached as jilted lover to create the villain of English history?
Hell, I don't know.
And the conspiratorial nonsense bubbles forth.
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2015, 07:47 AM   #69
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 21,328
Originally Posted by anglolawyer View Post
That's an easy one . When they looked through the window they thought they saw a female body but when they entered they realised it was male. Back at the note-taking end they recorded one female and one male. Those who wish to argue that Sheila was dead on the kitchen floor but the cops thought it would be a spiffing wheeze to lug her upstairs are welcome to indulge their fantasies. I could use a larf.
I believe some of Bamber's apologists maintain that Sheila was still alive, got up and went to the mater bedroom and then shot herself for the second time there, while the police were entering the house

Originally Posted by anglolawyer View Post
Catsmate - the whole phone mystery is a red herring, probably (with an interesting twist - see below). <snip>
Yep, I'm familiar with the phone saga.

Originally Posted by anglolawyer View Post
The handset was off the rotary phone.
That interests me, some have suggested that Bamber did this to prevent a call for help from the other handsets.

Originally Posted by anglolawyer View Post
This led to speculation that Bamber had pulled some stunt with the phones, switching things around, 'hiding' the kitchen phone etc but the truth is likely more banal (except for one thing).
Well the kitchen phone was in working order (it was tested a few days later) so perhaps something had been done. Or it could be one of those odd little details that mean nothing.

Originally Posted by anglolawyer View Post
But, there are two things I find interesting about all this. One is the fact that the cordless phone stopped working only two days before. Did Bamber do that, knowing the bedroom phone would be brought down (or bringing it down himself) and thus ensuring no 999 call could be made from the bedroom as he trudged across the gravel with the dogs barking (a labrador called Bruno which slept in the barn and a rat like crapulous little ****** Shitzu piece of crap dog that slept in the kitchen and yapped a lot)? I think maybe.
Interesting, I was aware the cordless phone was being repaired but sabotage hadn't occurred to me.
Though I doubt that the Bambers would have phoned the police over an unexpected visitor, and would the dogs have reacted that much to him? Surely they'd be used to him, but I'm a cat person (obviously).

Originally Posted by anglolawyer View Post
The other thing is that in the version of the plan he imparted to Julie, he told her the hitman he had hired had been told to use the cordless phones memory function to call Bamber so there would be a preserved record of the fact of the call. I don't know when he told her this but I'm thinking this was plan A but he switched to plan B without telling her.
Quite possible.
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2015, 07:54 AM   #70
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 21,328
Originally Posted by anglolawyer View Post
Yes, if you were in on the whole thing and expecting your share.
AH, now that is an interesting idea. And eminently possible too.

Originally Posted by anglolawyer View Post
Citation please ...
It's in the path report by Dr. Peter Vanezis, page 5.

Quote:
The lower mound had caused substantial haemorrhage into soft tissues of the neck, principally from the eight external jugular vein. In my view this injury, although life threatening, would not have caused rapid death as in the other wound.
He goes on to state, and reiterated at the trial, that the wound would not necessarily have caused rapid unconsciousness and the Sheila might have been able to walk after sustaining it. Though there's no evidence to support her doing so.
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2015, 08:26 AM   #71
Desert Fox
Philosopher
 
Desert Fox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 6,147
Originally Posted by anglolawyer View Post
The hypothesis is that he was in the bedroom but because the cops stripped all the bloodied wallpaper and carpets the next day (can you believe that?) it ceased to be possible to distinguish his blood from anyone else's.
I assume that they could tell who go shot where by at least documenting the shell casings.

If there is not enough shell casings in the kitchen, then he most likely had been shot elsewhere.
__________________
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt."
- - - -Bertrand Russell
Desert Fox is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2015, 08:37 AM   #72
Desert Fox
Philosopher
 
Desert Fox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 6,147
Originally Posted by anglolawyer View Post
Well, if she is threatening you, your wife and your grandchildren I would think it a distinct possibility, but not a certainty, you're right. However, I find the phone call to Bamber vastly less credible both in practical and logical terms.
I used to live in rural New Hampshire. Interestingly enough, it was in the early to mid 1980s.

The nearest police I believe was a state police station which was 20 to 30 minutes away. There was no 911 in that area at that time so it would have to be a direct dial to that state police station.

Now we had a town local volunteer fire department which would come much quicker but no ambulance, just fire trucks. The nearest ambulance would come from a hospital a town away. I would say that too would take around twenty minutes.

Living in rural areas bred an independence where you did not always think that the first thing you might do is call the police. We had a large extended family living maybe a half mile away for us. Three households with grand parents, parents, and children. I very much imagine them calling each other first.
__________________
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt."
- - - -Bertrand Russell
Desert Fox is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2015, 09:06 AM   #73
Desert Fox
Philosopher
 
Desert Fox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 6,147
Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Her first wound was declared by an expert at the trial not to have even severely incapacitated her. There is no need for the police to have lugged her body upstairs if she walked upstairs and shot herself again. Further, the police report wasn't 2 different people, one mistaking the body of Neville for a female......it was two officers (I think) each saying they saw two bodies in the kitchen.
I have been thinking about the angle of the shot. I believe it is accepted by all sides that the round went upwards as if the rifle is down by her knees. I have a hard time with that position being anything but a suicide.

Additionally, a person will react instinctively to anything pointed at the neck to knock it away. After she had seen everybody else get killed, you would have expected that she knew what was coming and would have fought.
__________________
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt."
- - - -Bertrand Russell
Desert Fox is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2015, 10:03 AM   #74
Desert Fox
Philosopher
 
Desert Fox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 6,147
Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Nope.
You made a statement which was simply wrong. . . . .You stated that a person cannot clean GSR by just washing. I linked to a forensic source which indicates that washing does remove such traces and that simple time and movement can do the same thing.

Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
:
And I pointed out that Sheila, should one accept the ludicrous theory that she was the killer, fired 25 shots. Even if one was to accept the idea that all the powder residue from the four murders disappeared somehow, the final two shots would have been fired by her while hugging the rifle. After that there'd be little movement from Sheila...
The senior officer was treating it as a suicide at first. How much care was taken initially, nobody knows, although likely not the best.

You cannot say that there was no GSR but none was detected. There are very different situations.

Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
But still a detectable amount. There's also the lead residue, or rather the lack of it, from reloading at least twice.
And 25 shots, even with 1.25gr each, is equivalent to six or seven 9x19mm shots, would you dismiss such a discharge?
First off, the ammo which was suppose to have been used was covered with wax. How would that have effected how much lead one gets on their hands.

Second, we are not talking about a 9 mm automatic pistol but a rifle. My .22 Browning is recoil action but I do not believe that most .22 rifles are. I suspect that they are gas action which will further reduce unspent powder. My pistol however is much cleaner even when firing 50 rounds than my .45 is with a single magazine. More of it however seems to collect inside the weapon, likely the results of the gasses not being expelled with much force.

I wanted to explain something. If Shelia washed her hands, I see it as a reaction of remorse or cleansing one's sins. I have read papers where studies have indicated that people feel better after washing one's hands.
__________________
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt."
- - - -Bertrand Russell
Desert Fox is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2015, 11:14 AM   #75
anglolawyer
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Guilford
Posts: 13,037
Julie Mugford

The position of JM is absolutely key to this case. It's perfectly possible and understandable to write off her evidence as that of a woman scorned, but consider when doing so the profound implications - that just because she had been thrown over she would condemn an innocent man to spend the rest of his days in prison and that she would risk her own liberty to do so. Not impossible but is that really likely?

Now consider that she told a version of the truth. A whole lot of things make much more sense if she was not merely in the know but an active party to a conspiracy to murder. That is my suggestion. Her end would be marriage to Bamber, social elevation and financial gain. That's quite something for an unattractive, not very bright woman of limited brains and prospects.

Of her general character, we know she was a burglar, a fraudster and a sly actress - so the profile isn't bad. Let's look at the story she told. She did not claim to have discovered Bamber's plans after the fact. She knew, and admitted she knew, them in advance. She knew from as far back as 1984 when he was planning to put them to sleep and burn the house down with them inside it. She obtained and supplied him with temazapam which, with her knowledge, he tested on himself, reporting that they didn't work.

She knew in advance on the night of the crime what was going down. Bamber called at 10.00 p.m. and told her it was now or never. Did she call the police ... ? He called her after 3.00 a.m. to tell her it was all done. Did she call the police then ... ? No. She went into Sue Battersby's room to talk about the call or, as I think, to make sure Battersby had heard the phone ring and would corroborate Bamber's claim that he had called Julie. Why was this important?

Bamber had a problem. He had to account for the time he spent cycling home from the farm. There was going to be a suspicious gap between Nevill's alleged call to him and his call to the cops as a result. He filled that gap with the call to Julie and by claiming, falsely IMO, to have spent 'ten minutes at the outside' looking up the number for the local force and hanging on to get through, rather than taking 10 seconds to call 999. IIUC he even circled the cops' number in the phone book. How very artful.

Now, consider Julie's position. She backed up his story, which means at the very least she committed the serious offences of impeding police enquiries and perverting the course of justice. At the very least. So she was in it up to her neck. She played her part. The press coverage went well, as did the funeral, but then things started to unravel. Bamber was having too good a time with his rather too close friend, Brett Collins. She could sense she was being edged out. She had taken a huge risk for him but, as they drafted apart, he was threatening her she had to keep quiet or he would take her down with him, all the while playing the field with other women. She said later she was not afraid of him at first but that he started to fear her and that caused her to fear him.

Things came to a head. They had a massive bust up. She was not going to be lady of the manor after all. Bamber tried to fob her off with a paid holiday. She didn't take his money. She told Sue Batterby the whole story. She told another friend and then another. After a few weeks she went to the police.

Consider the risk she took. First, Bamber might make good his threat and take her down with him. She gambled, correctly, that he couldn't do that and she had a fall back position anyway - to call him a liar or to claim coercion. After all, she had not herself shot anybody. Second, the cops might prosecute her for murder, conspiracy or perverting justce. No getting out of that one, unless some kind of deal was done in advance. That's possible but there is no sign of her taking legal advice and I doubt she had the know-how to plot her way through such a deal. Her calculation must have been that since the trail had gone cold her evidence would be so essential to the cops that they would use her rather than accuse her.

And so it panned out. I believe its obvious why nobody focused on this angle. Nobody concerned in the affair had anything to gain by doing so. On the contrary, there was much to lose for everyone. I find it very credible that the DPP authorised some kind of informal deal conferring immunity. There are a few things to be said about that but I will pause at this point for any comment.
anglolawyer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2015, 12:03 PM   #76
Desert Fox
Philosopher
 
Desert Fox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 6,147
Could have started with a more loose story which became more details as the cops coached her. In addition, they potentailly threatened her with being imprisoned for life.

Shades of Charles Erickson / Ryan Ferguson with the case. Struck also by the incredible story which Charles Boney told. Granted that in Boney's case, he was at the crime scene but it does not seem to have gone down as he described.
__________________
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt."
- - - -Bertrand Russell

Last edited by Desert Fox; 22nd September 2015 at 12:31 PM.
Desert Fox is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2015, 12:21 PM   #77
anglolawyer
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Guilford
Posts: 13,037
Originally Posted by Desert Fox View Post
Could have started with a more loose story which became more details as the cops coached her. In addition, they threatened her with being imprisoned for life.

Shades of Charles Erickson / Ryan Ferguson with the case. Struck also by the incredible story which Charles Boney told. Granted that in Boney's case, he was at the crime scene but it does not seem to have gone down as he described.
Are you stating this as fact or surmise?
anglolawyer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2015, 12:31 PM   #78
Desert Fox
Philosopher
 
Desert Fox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 6,147
Originally Posted by anglolawyer View Post
Are you stating this as fact or surmise?
Sorry, it is meant as my personal speculation based on other cases.
__________________
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt."
- - - -Bertrand Russell
Desert Fox is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2015, 12:35 PM   #79
MikeG
Now. Do it now.
 
MikeG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 24,804
Originally Posted by anglolawyer View Post
........Bamber had a problem. He had to account for the time he spent cycling home from the farm..........
I don't suppose anyone ever looked at his bike, did they? No, I thought not. If he had killed 5 people then ridden home, it's hard to see how the bike wouldn't have had some forensic evidence on it.

As for your theory.......hmmm. Dunno. It seems to have a lot to commend it. I am not really sure why JB would need her, though. I can see what might be in it for her, but for him? It's not so clear.
__________________
"The Conservatives want to keep wogs out and march boldly back to the 1950s when Britain still had an Empire and blacks, women, poofs and Irish knew their place." The Don That's what we've sunk to here.
MikeG is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2015, 12:42 PM   #80
anglolawyer
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Guilford
Posts: 13,037
Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
I don't suppose anyone ever looked at his bike, did they? No, I thought not. If he had killed 5 people then ridden home, it's hard to see how the bike wouldn't have had some forensic evidence on it.

As for your theory.......hmmm. Dunno. It seems to have a lot to commend it. I am not really sure why JB would need her, though. I can see what might be in it for her, but for him? It's not so clear.
Such as? They did look at the bike but not for a month.

Well, she was handy for taking his call at 3.00 in the morning but it's a good question, I admit. We know they were lovers and partners in crime. Maybe he just trusted her or thought he could control her and had some uses for her.
anglolawyer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Trials and Errors

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:31 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.