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Old 30th November 2019, 01:12 PM   #561
theprestige
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I think most people don't understand how big and diverse America really is. Perhaps the Russians and the Chinese have an inkling. It's fairly obvious that the average European has zero context.
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Old 30th November 2019, 02:00 PM   #562
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
You make tea in a coffee maker? It can't steep.
Back in the 1880s a gentleman named Sir Tetley Lipton Tea-Bagg invented a method of tea-making where you put the tea into a cup of hot water. He was of course rewarded by the Queen for his services, she made him Duke of Canada and also a vampire. Today he's a hardboiled detective taking on the cases even the cops won't touch. When Santa Claus was murdered over a drug debt who took the case? When the Spice Girls lost their amulets and the whole Earth was threatened by Queen Beryl who saved the day? When Jesus attempted to return who prevented him using only a safety pin, chewing gum, and a rubber band? That's right: Sherlock Holmes, Star Princess Megumi-Chan Robo Super Plus, and MacGuyver, respectively, but still the most common method for tea in America is individual tea bags in the cup or mug.
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Old 30th November 2019, 02:02 PM   #563
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I didn't know that. I had heard differently. I wonder why Americans are so resistant to the things?

I think it all boils down to not drinking much tea.
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Old 30th November 2019, 02:13 PM   #564
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
I think the post you're responding to was 'Poorsplaining'.


If you mean that I was poor once, then sure. Kettles don’t really apply but substitute any convenience appliance: microwave, VCR, coffeemaker, ...

I think it’s just pure logic. If you can’t afford the item, you figure out how to work around it. Kettles seem to be a peculiarly UK/European thing but no less “necessary and efficient” than any of the other things I named. My wife and I didn’t have any of those things for the early part of our adult life and they were ubiquitous, “can’t-live-without” items. We did without. I just don’t believe that being poor means you necessarily somehow end up spending more money.
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Old 30th November 2019, 02:49 PM   #565
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I know electric kettles are relatively common in my part of Canada. They're certainly available in the shops. However I have a very small social circle, so I can't estimate what percentage of the population that has one in their kitchen.
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Old 30th November 2019, 03:38 PM   #566
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
If you mean that I was poor once, then sure. Kettles don’t really apply but substitute any convenience appliance: microwave, VCR, coffeemaker, ...

I think it’s just pure logic. If you can’t afford the item, you figure out how to work around it. Kettles seem to be a peculiarly UK/European thing but no less “necessary and efficient” than any of the other things I named. My wife and I didn’t have any of those things for the early part of our adult life and they were ubiquitous, “can’t-live-without” items. We did without. I just don’t believe that being poor means you necessarily somehow end up spending more money.
Not really, your counter to the point that people on low incomes have to use less efficient workarounds that end up costing them more in the long run than the options that are open to people with greater resources is that people without sufficient resources should find a less efficient workaround. As rebuttals go it's hardly a great one.

(BTW: Over here, the cheaper alternative to a coffee maker is a kettle)
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Old 30th November 2019, 03:43 PM   #567
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Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
I know electric kettles are relatively common in my part of Canada. They're certainly available in the shops. However I have a very small social circle, so I can't estimate what percentage of the population that has one in their kitchen.
I'm very unusual in the UK as a rarely use a kettle and don't drink a lot of hot drinks, but I'd find the absence of a kettle strange. Over here they're as close to universal as any electrical appliance beyond the light bulb.
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Old 30th November 2019, 03:54 PM   #568
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Back in the 1880s a gentleman named Sir Tetley Lipton Tea-Bagg invented a method of tea-making where you put the tea into a cup of hot water. He was of course rewarded by the Queen for his services, she made him Duke of Canada and also a vampire. Today he's a hardboiled detective taking on the cases even the cops won't touch. When Santa Claus was murdered over a drug debt who took the case? When the Spice Girls lost their amulets and the whole Earth was threatened by Queen Beryl who saved the day? When Jesus attempted to return who prevented him using only a safety pin, chewing gum, and a rubber band? That's right: Sherlock Holmes, Star Princess Megumi-Chan Robo Super Plus, and MacGuyver, respectively, but still the most common method for tea in America is individual tea bags in the cup or mug.
That's a lot of words to not answer the question.

We put a tea bag in a mug then fill it with boiling water from a kettle, oddly we in the UK have heard of both cups and tea bags (containing tea in paper pouches dates back to the Tang dynasty in China). This great bit of sarcasm doesn't actually explain how you make a decent cup of tea with a coffee maker since coffee makers heat the water in a slow stream of not quite boiling water passing through the coffee grounds as that's a good way to make coffee. Tea on the other hand needs to be steeped in a larger quantity of water that has literally just come off the boil and has not been allowed to cool.

I don't even drink tea but I know that really hot water is essential if you don't want to end up a cup of tepid slightly brown water.
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Old 30th November 2019, 04:09 PM   #569
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Best Buy is a nationwide American chain of home electronics stores. They sell 52 different electric kettles which are typically used to heat water for tea. Usually there are around a half dozen kinds stocked in the stores.

At their website: Best Buy --> Small Kitchen Appliances --> Coffee, Tea & Espresso --> Tea Kettles --> Electric Tea Kettles
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Old 30th November 2019, 04:12 PM   #570
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Electric kettles have gotten a bit more uptake the past year or so as people got into the classic pour-over coffee-brewing method. It's handy for Luchog as they were able to get one with programmable water temperatures for all the different types of tea (white, green, oolong, black, pu-erh etc) when the one my daughter had sent from Canada gave up the ghost.
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Old 30th November 2019, 04:28 PM   #571
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I think most people don't understand how big and diverse America really is. Perhaps the Russians and the Chinese have an inkling. It's fairly obvious that the average European has zero context.
Good point, Europe is so much smaller, less diverse and has fewer people than the US.

Derp.
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Old 30th November 2019, 04:38 PM   #572
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
That's a lot of words to not answer the question.

We put a tea bag in a mug then fill it with boiling water from a kettle, oddly we in the UK have heard of both cups and tea bags (containing tea in paper pouches dates back to the Tang dynasty in China). This great bit of sarcasm doesn't actually explain how you make a decent cup of tea with a coffee maker since coffee makers heat the water in a slow stream of not quite boiling water passing through the coffee grounds as that's a good way to make coffee. Tea on the other hand needs to be steeped in a larger quantity of water that has literally just come off the boil and has not been allowed to cool.

I don't even drink tea but I know that really hot water is essential if you don't want to end up a cup of tepid slightly brown water.

The household coffeemakers I'm familiar with heat up water. It doesn't matter whether it does it slowly pouring or not because when you're just heating up water you don't put a coffee filter or coffee in it: you just let the water heat up and fall into the glass thingy. Then you pour that into a cup with a teabag. It works just fine.
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Old 30th November 2019, 05:04 PM   #573
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
The household coffeemakers I'm familiar with heat up water. It doesn't matter whether it does it slowly pouring or not because when you're just heating up water you don't put a coffee filter or coffee in it: you just let the water heat up and fall into the glass thingy. Then you pour that into a cup with a teabag. It works just fine.
Well that would depend on how slowly, the drip coffee makers I've owned would were slow enough to allow the water to cool too much to make good tea and the hotplate doesn't keep water close enough to boiling, but thank you, that answers the question I asked.
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Old 30th November 2019, 05:12 PM   #574
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
Well that would depend on how slowly, the drip coffee makers I've owned would were slow enough to allow the water to cool too much to make good tea and the hotplate doesn't keep water close enough to boiling, but thank you, that answers the question I asked.
There's usually a hot plate beneath the glass bit, that keeps the water hot after it's dripped in.
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Old 30th November 2019, 05:17 PM   #575
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
Well that would depend on how slowly, the drip coffee makers I've owned would were slow enough to allow the water to cool too much to make good tea and the hotplate doesn't keep water close enough to boiling, but thank you, that answers the question I asked.
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
There's usually a hot plate beneath the glass bit, that keeps the water hot after it's dripped in.
Already considered.
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Old 30th November 2019, 05:36 PM   #576
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
I think it all boils down to not drinking much tea.

That may be the answer. Certainly I find the kettle handy because if I want one cup of tea (tea bag) by the time I have put the tea bag and the sugar in the cup, the kettle has boiled sufficient water to do the job.

Same for instant coffee actually, but I do realise this is probably philistinism beyond tolerance.
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Old 30th November 2019, 05:39 PM   #577
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How about we do a UKCM -- everyone gets a free kettle and a free coffee maker -- instead of this apparently contentious UBI idea?

Infants can be covered under a UMB scheme, and graduate to the UKCM when they're a bit older.

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Old 30th November 2019, 06:12 PM   #578
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Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
How about we do a UKCM -- everyone gets a free kettle and a free coffee maker -- instead of this apparently contentious UBI idea?

Infants can be covered under a UMB scheme, and graduate to the UKCM when they're a bit older.
If you give everyone a free kettle and a free coffee maker, they will try to live off tea and coffee for ever and make no effort to acquire any other kitchen appliances.
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Old 30th November 2019, 09:02 PM   #579
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
If you mean that I was poor once, then sure. Kettles don’t really apply but substitute any convenience appliance: microwave, VCR, coffeemaker, ...

I think it’s just pure logic. If you can’t afford the item, you figure out how to work around it. Kettles seem to be a peculiarly UK/European thing but no less “necessary and efficient” than any of the other things I named. My wife and I didn’t have any of those things for the early part of our adult life and they were ubiquitous, “can’t-live-without” items. We did without. I just don’t believe that being poor means you necessarily somehow end up spending more money.
The point isn't that you end up spending more money, it's that you end up spending more money per unit of goods that you are buying. If you can afford to buy in bulk, you can get a discount. If you can afford to buy higher quality items, at least some times those things last longer and you end up saving money in the long term. If you can afford to buy a car instead of leasing, you end up spending less on the car even though in the short term the person on a lease is spending less.

What it really comes down to is that capital can be invested, and that pays off over the long term. This shouldn't be controversial.
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Old 1st December 2019, 09:52 AM   #580
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Poor person: It costs more for me to have the same things a rich person has because my lack of funds preclude me from optimal economic behavior. For, example, I can't afford a good electric kettle to make tea so I end up replacing it and spending more in the long run. There are other examples.

Rich Person: WTF are you doing drinking tea if you are so poor? Maybe if you didn't drink tea you would be able to buy a better kettle.
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Old 1st December 2019, 10:32 AM   #581
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
I think it’s just pure logic. If you can’t afford the item, you figure out how to work around it. Kettles seem to be a peculiarly UK/European thing but no less “necessary and efficient” than any of the other things I named. My wife and I didn’t have any of those things for the early part of our adult life and they were ubiquitous, “can’t-live-without” items. We did without. I just don’t believe that being poor means you necessarily somehow end up spending more money.
I must admit that I am a little skeptical about the extent of how much poverty costs money.

Sure, if it means constantly getting pay day loans or having to constantly negotiate with creditors to defer bills then this will be very costly. OTOH with a little budgeting you can easily avoid these debt traps.

The idea that buying in bulk necessarily saves money is also simplistic. Spoilage becomes a big factor when you buy a lot more of something than you need.

A big part of the cost of furniture and white goods is depreciation. You can get second hand items for as little as a tenth of the cost of the new item (especially if you hunt flea markets etc) and still last a reasonable length of time. I know, I have had times when second hand was my only option.
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Old 1st December 2019, 11:46 AM   #582
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Kettles etc are small potatoes. The real economic difference between well-off and poor is retirement. Those who make enough income to save and invest are going to have a radically different lifestyle in old age than those who will be totally reliant on Social Security in old age...and the amount you get from SS depends on how much your income was when you were working. Some people will never be able to retire. Others will live even better than they did while working.
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Old 1st December 2019, 08:24 PM   #583
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Kettles etc are small potatoes. The real economic difference between well-off and poor is retirement. Those who make enough income to save and invest are going to have a radically different lifestyle in old age than those who will be totally reliant on Social Security in old age...and the amount you get from SS depends on how much your income was when you were working. Some people will never be able to retire. Others will live even better than they did while working.
All of these terms like "well off" are super vague.

Most people living in the USA are well off by any reasonable global standard.

Wealthy people have yachts and fly around in private jets.
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Old 1st December 2019, 08:47 PM   #584
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Originally Posted by NewtonTrino View Post
All of these terms like "well off" are super vague.

Most people living in the USA are well off by any reasonable global standard.

Wealthy people have yachts and fly around in private jets.
Are you arguing that people too poor to retire should consider themselves well off?
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Old 2nd December 2019, 03:24 AM   #585
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NVM
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Old 2nd December 2019, 05:37 AM   #586
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Are you arguing that people too poor to retire should consider themselves well off?
Dunno about him, but I might.
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Old 2nd December 2019, 06:03 AM   #587
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Dunno about him, but I might.
Is that based on the popular internet theory "someone else has it worse so you aren't allowed to complain about anything?"
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Old 2nd December 2019, 08:40 AM   #588
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UBI might not work mainly the money is too low to get into apt as you generally need 2x income per person to qualify so the theory that 5 people living on UBI can get into an apt is false because they would need 10k month income not 5k. They would have to move into at least a 3 bedroom too
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Old 2nd December 2019, 08:49 AM   #589
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Is that based on the popular internet theory "someone else has it worse so you aren't allowed to complain about anything?"
It is not. That's a stupid theory and I wouldn't base an argument on it.
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Old 2nd December 2019, 11:28 AM   #590
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Originally Posted by NewtonTrino View Post
All of these terms like "well off" are super vague.

Most people living in the USA are well off by any reasonable global standard.

Wealthy people have yachts and fly around in private jets.
"reasonable" is also pretty vague in that usage.
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Old 2nd December 2019, 11:32 AM   #591
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Originally Posted by NewtonTrino View Post
All of these terms like "well off" are super vague.

Most people living in the USA are well off by any reasonable global standard.

Wealthy people have yachts and fly around in private jets.
Yep. Poor people are poor anywhere. Rich people are rich everywhere. In between are people who are more or less well off depending on their context.
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Old 2nd December 2019, 02:42 PM   #592
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
In between are people who are more or less well off depending on their context.
And I've decided to call them "White Collar," because it doesn't matter what that means to anyone else.

Dave
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Old 2nd December 2019, 02:51 PM   #593
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
And I've decided to call them "White Collar," because it doesn't matter what that means to anyone else.
As long as it means something to someone, and is scrutable from context, I don't mind.
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Old 2nd December 2019, 03:25 PM   #594
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Are you arguing that people too poor to retire should consider themselves well off?
Yes pretty much. Compared to most of the world they indeed are. Compared to most of history they indeed are.

Also, if you get to 65 and you have no savings and you never paid into social security you might have screwed up somewhere along the line.
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Old 2nd December 2019, 04:43 PM   #595
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Originally Posted by NewtonTrino View Post
Yes pretty much. Compared to most of the world they indeed are. Compared to most of history they indeed are.
Which is fine in a sort of appreciation kind of thing if you are in the whole "all existence is pain so any relief from that should be appreciated" Buddhist type stuff. That is, however, a personal choice.

As an excuse to not give a crap about people that could be helped it stinks...
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Also, if you get to 65 and you have no savings and you never paid into social security you might have screwed up somewhere along the line.
...and people are known to look for excuses to do just that.
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Old 2nd December 2019, 05:07 PM   #596
TragicMonkey
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Originally Posted by NewtonTrino View Post
Yes pretty much. Compared to most of the world they indeed are. Compared to most of history they indeed are.
So? Does that improve any situation, to point out that another situation is worse? Does it ease your cancer to hear about MS? Is your dead kid less saddening if someone's twin kids die?

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Also, if you get to 65 and you have no savings and you never paid into social security you might have screwed up somewhere along the line.
I didn't say anything about not paying into SS. Paying into SS isn't going to be enough for many/most people. As for savings, not everyone makes enough money to save anything. Do you really not understand the concept of "working poor"? Do you think every job pays adequately to live well, and retire from?
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Old 3rd December 2019, 06:10 AM   #597
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Kettles etc are small potatoes. The real economic difference between well-off and poor is retirement. Those who make enough income to save and invest are going to have a radically different lifestyle in old age than those who will be totally reliant on Social Security in old age...and the amount you get from SS depends on how much your income was when you were working. Some people will never be able to retire. Others will live even better than they did while working.
Funny, my dad lives better in retirement than he did while working and he never made more than $40k/year(jfor inflation even) in his life. Granted, he's not exactly typical.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 06:15 AM   #598
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey;12910974... As for savings, [i
not everyone makes enough money to save anything[/i]. Do you really not understand the concept of "working poor"? Do you think every job pays adequately to live well, and retire from?
<sarcasm>But then, that's their fault innit? </sarcasm>
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Old 3rd December 2019, 10:49 AM   #599
NewtonTrino
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
So? Does that improve any situation, to point out that another situation is worse? Does it ease your cancer to hear about MS? Is your dead kid less saddening if someone's twin kids die?



I didn't say anything about not paying into SS. Paying into SS isn't going to be enough for many/most people. As for savings, not everyone makes enough money to save anything. Do you really not understand the concept of "working poor"? Do you think every job pays adequately to live well, and retire from?
So this is the opposite of reality. The poorer you are the more you can't afford to not save something! The less you have the more you have to be careful with your limited resources.

I do not accept this idea that people for their entire lives are in an emergency situation that doesn't allow savings. I've seen way too many people turn around their finances with some education.

What you are really saying is people can't afford to save if they want to live a lifestyle that's typically american (e.g. fancier than most people on earth).
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Old 3rd December 2019, 11:16 AM   #600
TragicMonkey
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Originally Posted by NewtonTrino View Post
So this is the opposite of reality. The poorer you are the more you can't afford to not save something! The less you have the more you have to be careful with your limited resources.

I do not accept this idea that people for their entire lives are in an emergency situation that doesn't allow savings. I've seen way too many people turn around their finances with some education.

What you are really saying is people can't afford to save if they want to live a lifestyle that's typically american (e.g. fancier than most people on earth).
What I'm really saying is that one must have resources in excess of needs in order to save. You appear to be incapable of grasping the possibility that not everybody has resources in excess of their needs.
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