What Australians Really Think About Religion

arthwollipot · 5th November 2019, 04:33 PM

Disclaimer: this is a journalist's analysis of a self-selected online survey by the ABC. It is intended as a start to a conversation, not as a declaration of absolute fact.

What Australians really think about religion

Read the article for the statistics, but here are some key points. Each of these is a direct copy from the article:

Australians firmly believe that religious people are subjected to discrimination in this country. But all the same, we'd rather the godly kept their views to themselves.
Australia is not a country in which religious belief is the dominant determinant of identity, social status or indeed even social activity.
Intermingling between religious groups is commonplace in Australia; 84 per cent of respondents said they mixed socially with people of different beliefs to themselves. But there are some subjects probably best avoided at such ecclesiastically-mixed gatherings.
Overall, Australians are not looking for more religion. Only 15 per cent of respondents thought the country would be better off if more people were religious. And one of the survey's most striking findings is the poor esteem in which religious leaders are held.

Discuss.

theprestige · 5th November 2019, 04:36 PM

Thanks for the well summarized first post.

Thor 2 · 5th November 2019, 05:40 PM

Yes I read that article earlier this morning, and was disappointed that no detail was given about how, and in what way specifically, religious people were discriminated against.

I think some just hear stuff on the news about some politician or another, (who happens to be religious), sounding off about the subject and form an opinion based on that. Some detail would be helpful.

Norman Alexander · 5th November 2019, 05:48 PM

The most prominent religious discrimination is probably all the local yokels and Pauline Hansen mouthing off about "all them Mussies and Hindoos invading our country by the boatload, wearing their religious headscarves and turbans and trying to impose Sharia law", etc. The thin-skinned Christians who think they are being hard done by having to let other religions exist here are also big complainers.

arthwollipot · 5th November 2019, 05:53 PM

Originally Posted by Thor 2

Yes I read that article earlier this morning, and was disappointed that no detail was given about how, and in what way specifically, religious people were discriminated against.

I did the survey myself, and that question was not asked. It was literally "Do you believe that religious people are discriminated against?". Strongly agree, agree, neutral, disagree, strongly disagree.

Thor 2 · 7th November 2019, 08:25 PM

Well here may be a case of religious discrimination in the making

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-11-...ments/11684978

Quote:

US rapper TI has provoked outrage by saying he forces his 18-year-old daughter to undergo an annual "virginity test" at the gynaecologist.
The Grammy-winning musician told a podcast he escorted Deyjah Harris to the doctor's office after each birthday to "check her hymen."

There is no mention of religion in the article but what else would encourage this kind of abuse? I hope this turd gets kicked off the stage. The gyno should lose his licence as well.

Gord_in_Toronto · 7th November 2019, 09:01 PM

Originally Posted by Thor 2

Well here may be a case of religious discrimination in the making

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-11-...ments/11684978

There is no mention of religion in the article but what else would encourage this kind of abuse? I hope this turd gets kicked off the stage. The gyno should lose his licence as well.

Amusingly enough (much depending on how easily one is amused of course) I attended this lecture by Jen Gunter here in TO a week ago: "A History of Hymens".

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

There really are a lot of stupid people in this world!

arthwollipot · 7th November 2019, 09:10 PM

She's 18, legally an adult. He no longer has the authority to force her to do jack.

psionl0 · 7th November 2019, 09:28 PM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

I did the survey myself, and that question was not asked. It was literally "Do you believe that religious people are discriminated against?". Strongly agree, agree, neutral, disagree, strongly disagree.

I'm guessing that Margaret Court would strongly agree.

arthwollipot · 7th November 2019, 09:33 PM

Originally Posted by psionl0

I'm guessing that Margaret Court would strongly agree.

Quite a few people agree, as it turns out.

Robin · 8th November 2019, 05:28 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

I'm guessing that Margaret Court would strongly agree.

Certainly. It is a terrible oppression that some people are less enthusiastic about her sporting achievements than she would like them to be.

And a few people voiced the opinion that the arena named for her should be renamed.

And all based on nothing at all except the fact that she is religious.

I am certainly glad I never faced that kind of discrimination in my life.

rjh01 · 8th November 2019, 01:39 PM

Originally Posted by Robin

Certainly. It is a terrible oppression that some people are less enthusiastic about her sporting achievements than she would like them to be.

And a few people voiced the opinion that the arena named for her should be renamed.

And all based on nothing at all except the fact that she is religious.

I am certainly glad I never faced that kind of discrimination in my life.

This is so far wrong as to be offensive. She expressed certain points of view that were very unhealthy. Something like "go kill yourself." Not what most people would want to be associated with.

psionl0 · 8th November 2019, 02:24 PM

Originally Posted by rjh01

This is so far wrong as to be offensive. She expressed certain points of view that were very unhealthy. Something like "go kill yourself." Not what most people would want to be associated with.

I know that Margaret Court set herself at odds when she claimed that homosexuality was a choice but I have never seen anything like that reported.

Have you got a source for that or are you making it up?

rjh01 · 8th November 2019, 05:03 PM

Originally Posted by psionl0

I know that Margaret Court set herself at odds when she claimed that homosexuality was a choice but I have never seen anything like that reported.

Have you got a source for that or are you making it up?

I must admit I have reworded what she said. But that is what it amounted to. Discrimination against minority groups, like what she did, is telling people they should not exist.

psionl0 · 8th November 2019, 06:23 PM

Originally Posted by rjh01

I must admit I have reworded what she said. But that is what it amounted to. Discrimination against minority groups, like what she did, is telling people they should not exist.

Not even close. Your emotions really ran away with you on this one.

She is quoted as saying “I have gay people in the church. It is nothing against the people themselves, I just said what the Bible said. If I can’t say what the Bible says, there is something wrong.” (https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/spo...06-p53821.html). It's a little bit more than that, it is her claim that homosexuality is a choice that marks her as controversial. However, that is still a long way from "telling people they should not exist".

If her views are costing Tennis Australia money then they have a right to refuse to honour her grand slam year and even rename her stadium. Otherwise, they are putting political correctness over profits.

rjh01 · 8th November 2019, 08:20 PM

Originally Posted by psionl0

Not even close. Your emotions really ran away with you on this one.

She is quoted as saying “I have gay people in the church. It is nothing against the people themselves, I just said what the Bible said. If I can’t say what the Bible says, there is something wrong.” (https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/spo...06-p53821.html). It's a little bit more than that, it is her claim that homosexuality is a choice that marks her as controversial. However, that is still a long way from "telling people they should not exist".

If her views are costing Tennis Australia money then they have a right to refuse to honour her grand slam year and even rename her stadium. Otherwise, they are putting political correctness over profits.

That is not even close
https://www.smh.com.au/sport/tennis/...31-gwhfbj.html

This quote compares homosexuals with people who are child abusers.

Quote:

In the face of polls that show 65 per cent of Australians support gay marriage, Court said: "We know the statistics are very, very wrong. They're after our young ones, that's what they're after."

Had a bit of difficulty selecting the right quote. Plenty more I could have chosen. It is not even as if it was a once off statement. I did a simple google search and found plenty of choice with a variety of dates. I selected this one at random.
It is this sort of thing that caused homosexuals to call suicide hotlines. I say if one person says something to another person that causes them to get suicidal then it might as well be 'go kill yourself'.

But maybe I did allow my emotions to run away.

Edit. Just read your link. It appears that she has backed off a lot since my link was written.

Robin · 8th November 2019, 10:14 PM

How did it not come across that I was being sarcastic about Court facing discrimination?

Of course that wasn't discrimination. Some people criticised her. Some people talked about the stadium named after her being renamed. And some people are not as enthusiastic about her sporting achievements as she would like them to be.

She does not even have the faintest clue what it is to face discrimination.

psionl0 · 8th November 2019, 10:18 PM

Originally Posted by rjh01

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/tennis/...31-gwhfbj.html

This quote compares homosexuals with people who are child abusers.

Quote:

In the face of polls that show 65 per cent of Australians support gay marriage, Court said: "We know the statistics are very, very wrong. They're after our young ones, that's what they're after."

When you quote something out of context you can get a very different conclusion.

Here is a more complete quote:

Quote:

"That's what Hitler did. That's what communism did," Court said, "get in the minds of the children. There's a whole plot in our nation and in the nations of the world to get in the minds of the children."

In the face of polls that show 65 per cent of Australians support gay marriage, Court said: "We know the statistics are very, very wrong. They're after our young ones, that's what they're after."

She is talking about conditioning children to accept non-biblical values and not claiming that homosexuals are pedophiles.

rjh01 · 8th November 2019, 10:26 PM

Originally Posted by psionl0

When you quote something out of context you can get a very different conclusion.

Here is a more complete quote:

She is talking about conditioning children to accept non-biblical values and not claiming that homosexuals are pedophiles.

What is written is capable of many interpretations. Yours is a very generous one. Saying that what they are doing is similar to what communists and Hitler did. Therefore it is wrong.

lionking · 8th November 2019, 10:27 PM

Originally Posted by psionl0

Here is a more complete quote:

She is talking about conditioning children to accept non-biblical values and not claiming that homosexuals are pedophiles.

Do you really think the complete quote makes Court look better?

psionl0 · 8th November 2019, 10:36 PM

Originally Posted by lionking

Do you really think the complete quote makes Court look better?

Not much but twisting Court's words to mean that homosexuals are seeking to have sex with children is not just hyperbole or a strawman, it is a lie.

I don't have a great deal of sympathy for Margaret Court myself but that doesn't mean that we should put words in her mouth in an attempt to stir up even greater hatred for her.

Darat · 9th November 2019, 04:47 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

When you quote something out of context you can get a very different conclusion.

Here is a more complete quote:

She is talking about conditioning children to accept non-biblical values and not claiming that homosexuals are pedophiles.

That tends to be called "projection", she is a accusing others of what she is trying to do.

psionl0 · 9th November 2019, 01:43 PM

Originally Posted by Darat

That tends to be called "projection", she is a accusing others of what she is trying to do.

I thought CT myself.

Robin · 9th November 2019, 03:39 PM

Originally Posted by psionl0

Not much but twisting Court's words to mean that homosexuals are seeking to have sex with children is not just hyperbole or a strawman, it is a lie.

I don't have a great deal of sympathy for Margaret Court myself but that doesn't mean that we should put words in her mouth in an attempt to stir up even greater hatred for her.

I agree. In the full quote she is obviously struggling to get across her ideas, live interviews being very difficult at the best of times.

But the various paraphrases in the media have been very misleading.

I wouldn't say I am happy with what she did say but I am not going to condemn her for that.

I have much loved older family members who have similar attitudes.

More of an occasion for eye rolling than cancelling.

My only point was that what she is facing could hardly be called discrimination.

Robin · 9th November 2019, 03:52 PM

Originally Posted by Darat

That tends to be called "projection", she is a accusing others of what she is trying to do.

I thought that too. The various religions have always used the tactic of indoctrination at a very young age. I bet her church does it too.

rockinkt · 9th November 2019, 04:31 PM

Originally Posted by Robin

I agree. In the full quote she is obviously struggling to get across her ideas, live interviews being very difficult at the best of times.

But the various paraphrases in the media have been very misleading.

I wouldn't say I am happy with what she did say but I am not going to condemn her for that.

I have much loved older family members who have similar attitudes.

More of an occasion for eye rolling than cancelling.

My only point was that what she is facing could hardly be called discrimination.

The difference is your "much loved older family members" just pollute the rooms they are in or those within hearing distance with their hateful and horrible comments. Court's words - because she is a nationally recognized celebrity - pollute the entire continent.

psionl0 · 9th November 2019, 06:12 PM

Originally Posted by rockinkt

The difference is your "much loved older family members" just pollute the rooms they are in or those within hearing distance with their hateful and horrible comments. Court's words - because she is a nationally recognized celebrity - pollute the entire continent.

Which "hateful and horrible comments" are you referring to?

rockinkt · 10th November 2019, 03:01 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

Which "hateful and horrible comments" are you referring to?

Court's words and sentiments are hateful and horrible so if your family members have similar attitudes (as you posted), then their words and sentiments on the subject are obviously hateful and horrible as well.
Pretty simple really.

Robin · 10th November 2019, 12:49 PM

Court's words were misrepresented, but what she did say still might be categorised as horrible and hateful.

If a tennis player had said that tennis was full of Jews or that Jews had a disproportionate influence in tennis and that an anti semitism resource for schools was the work of the devil and compared it to the tactics of Nazism and said 'they are after our kids' I doubt that anyone would question that those comments were horrible and hateful.

So, yes, 'horrible and hateful' is a fair categorisation of her words.

I still say they are more an occasion for eye rolling than cancelling.

Thor 2 · 10th November 2019, 01:02 PM

This is what Court said according to the Daily Telegraph:

"FORMER tennis champion Margaret Court has told a Christian radio station that “tennis is full of lesbians” and transgender children are influenced by the Devil and are part of a mind control plot as seen in Nazi Germany."

Pretty hateful I reckon, but then again these are views inspired by religious faith so she gets a free pass I suppose.

Thor 2 · 10th November 2019, 01:14 PM

Oh, a few more gems from Margaret:

“Your thoughts — even medically they’re knowing now — the mind is a battlefield and that’s why I wrote that book Train Your Brain because the mind is, it’s all in the Bible."

“God’s got so much in there about the mind how it affects us, affects our emotions, our feelings, you can think ‘oh I’m a boy’ and it’ll affect your emotions and feelings, and everything else and so that’s all the Devil."

Good thing for her that she could hit a tennis ball - an intellectual giant she is not. As I have said before - "Why do so many treasure the words of celebrities. Just admire their tennis ball hitting, bowling, batting, etc, and leave their intellectual forays alone."

psionl0 · 10th November 2019, 02:31 PM

Originally Posted by rockinkt

Court's words and sentiments are hateful and horrible so if your family members have similar attitudes (as you posted), then their words and sentiments on the subject are obviously hateful and horrible as well.
Pretty simple really.

If you can't answer a question then just admit it. Repeating the question and abusing the questioner just makes you look bad.

Robin · 10th November 2019, 03:24 PM

Here is as full a transcript I can find of part of it:

Quote:

“The gay lobby is behind that bullying programme in the schools. And, you know, children not knowing … they’re taking out ‘he’ and ‘she’ and you become an ‘it’ and a ‘we’ and a ‘they’. And, you know, if you feel like being a girl you can dress like a girl if you’re a boy. And if you’re a boy … uh, I think what confusion for a child. I get confused just talking about it.

“When I was little, I was very much a tomboy. My mum used to say to me, ‘you should have been a boy’. I could kick the football better than anybody, play cricket. But you know what? I always knew I was a girl. And I was conscious and I was brought up like that. And I liked wearing shorts but I liked wearing dresses. And there was never any other thought that was ever said.

“But with the literature, the bullying, the stuff that’s put out today into children’s minds, I tell you what, if you haven’t got parents who bring you up that way, and you’ve got parents who don’t care and you’re hurt and offended by somebody saying something to you or … I tell you a child can just start to think well, maybe I am a girl, when they’re a boy. Or maybe I am a girl, when I’m a boy. Your thoughts, and even medically they’re knowing now, they say the mind is a battlefield.

“That’s why I wrote that book, ‘Train Your Brain’… it’s all in the Bible. God’s got so much in there about the mind, how it affects us, affects our emotions, our feelings. You can think, ‘I’m a boy’ and it’ll affect your emotions and feelings and everything else. That’s all the Devil. That’s what Hitler did and that’s what Communism did: got the minds of the children. And there’s a whole plot in our nation and in the nations of the world to get the minds of the children.”

As I said before if that had begun "The Jewish lobby ..." and had been about a schools resource which was intended to counter anti-semitism then there would be no question about these words being hateful or horrible.

Again,

Quote:

“Tennis is full of lesbians because even when I was playing, there was only a couple there, but those couple that led took young ones into parties and things.”

Robin · 10th November 2019, 04:00 PM

Just in the interests of giving Margaret Court her own words rather than paraphrase, here is a letter she sent to a newspaper criticising fellow tennis player Casey Dellacqua's family.

http://newsweekly.com.au/article.php?id=56354

Again, free speech and all, but why is criticism of Court supposed to be out of bounds?

Thor 2 · 10th November 2019, 04:36 PM

Originally Posted by rockinkt

Court's words and sentiments are hateful and horrible so if your family members have similar attitudes (as you posted), then their words and sentiments on the subject are obviously hateful and horrible as well.
Pretty simple really.

Originally Posted by psionl0

If you can't answer a question then just admit it. Repeating the question and abusing the questioner just makes you look bad.

Abusing the questioner - that would be you psion?

Funny but I can't see rockinkt doing that. Are you using your finely tuned reading between the lines and mind reading skills again psion? A formidable talent used against myself before as I recall.

psionl0 · 10th November 2019, 07:46 PM

Originally Posted by Robin

Again, free speech and all, but why is criticism of Court supposed to be out of bounds?

She is not. There is much to criticize her about. Just do it on what she is saying and not put words in her mouth (I know you are not doing this).

Cris · 11th November 2019, 02:34 PM

I know many atheists who have no prejudice against theists

arthwollipot · 11th November 2019, 05:51 PM

Originally Posted by Cris

I know many atheists who have no prejudice against theists

I would have said that the majority of us hold no prejudice against theists.

Some of them would say that they hate the religion but not the religious people, but I have argued that it amounts to the same thing. There is disagreement.

Cris · 11th November 2019, 05:57 PM

Agnostic
An individual who neither believes nor denies the existence of God

psionl0 · 12th November 2019, 01:23 AM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

I would have said that the majority of us hold no prejudice against theists.

Considering the resounding voices of disapproval against Margaret Court and Israel Folau simply because of the religious views that they express, I'm not so sure.

5th November 2019, 04:33 PM	#1
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Location, Location Posts: 64,621	What Australians Really Think About Religion Disclaimer: this is a journalist's analysis of a self-selected online survey by the ABC. It is intended as a start to a conversation, not as a declaration of absolute fact. What Australians really think about religion Read the article for the statistics, but here are some key points. Each of these is a direct copy from the article: Australians firmly believe that religious people are subjected to discrimination in this country. But all the same, we'd rather the godly kept their views to themselves. Australia is not a country in which religious belief is the dominant determinant of identity, social status or indeed even social activity. Intermingling between religious groups is commonplace in Australia; 84 per cent of respondents said they mixed socially with people of different beliefs to themselves. But there are some subjects probably best avoided at such ecclesiastically-mixed gatherings. Overall, Australians are not looking for more religion. Only 15 per cent of respondents thought the country would be better off if more people were religious. And one of the survey's most striking findings is the poor esteem in which religious leaders are held. Discuss.
	__________________ Self-described nerd. Pronouns: He/Him My mom told me she tries never to make fun of people for not knowing something. - Randall Munroe

5th November 2019, 05:40 PM	#3
Thor 2 Philosopher Join Date: May 2016 Location: Brisbane, Aust. Posts: 5,700	Yes I read that article earlier this morning, and was disappointed that no detail was given about how, and in what way specifically, religious people were discriminated against. I think some just hear stuff on the news about some politician or another, (who happens to be religious), sounding off about the subject and form an opinion based on that. Some detail would be helpful.
	__________________ Thinking is a faith hazard.

5th November 2019, 05:48 PM	#4
Norman Alexander Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 6,431	The most prominent religious discrimination is probably all the local yokels and Pauline Hansen mouthing off about "all them Mussies and Hindoos invading our country by the boatload, wearing their religious headscarves and turbans and trying to impose Sharia law", etc. The thin-skinned Christians who think they are being hard done by having to let other religions exist here are also big complainers.
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

5th November 2019, 05:53 PM	#5
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Location, Location Posts: 64,621	Originally Posted by Thor 2 Yes I read that article earlier this morning, and was disappointed that no detail was given about how, and in what way specifically, religious people were discriminated against. I did the survey myself, and that question was not asked. It was literally "Do you believe that religious people are discriminated against?". Strongly agree, agree, neutral, disagree, strongly disagree.
	__________________ Self-described nerd. Pronouns: He/Him My mom told me she tries never to make fun of people for not knowing something. - Randall Munroe

7th November 2019, 08:25 PM	#6
Thor 2 Philosopher Join Date: May 2016 Location: Brisbane, Aust. Posts: 5,700	Well here may be a case of religious discrimination in the making https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-11-...ments/11684978 Quote: US rapper TI has provoked outrage by saying he forces his 18-year-old daughter to undergo an annual "virginity test" at the gynaecologist. The Grammy-winning musician told a podcast he escorted Deyjah Harris to the doctor's office after each birthday to "check her hymen." There is no mention of religion in the article but what else would encourage this kind of abuse? I hope this turd gets kicked off the stage. The gyno should lose his licence as well.
	__________________ Thinking is a faith hazard.

5th November 2019, 04:36 PM	#2
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 39,527	Thanks for the well summarized first post.

7th November 2019, 09:10 PM	#8
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Location, Location Posts: 64,621	She's 18, legally an adult. He no longer has the authority to force her to do jack.
	__________________ Self-described nerd. Pronouns: He/Him My mom told me she tries never to make fun of people for not knowing something. - Randall Munroe

7th November 2019, 09:28 PM	#9
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 15,170	Originally Posted by arthwollipot I did the survey myself, and that question was not asked. It was literally "Do you believe that religious people are discriminated against?". Strongly agree, agree, neutral, disagree, strongly disagree. I'm guessing that Margaret Court would strongly agree.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

7th November 2019, 09:33 PM	#10
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Location, Location Posts: 64,621	Originally Posted by psionl0 I'm guessing that Margaret Court would strongly agree. Quite a few people agree, as it turns out.
	__________________ Self-described nerd. Pronouns: He/Him My mom told me she tries never to make fun of people for not knowing something. - Randall Munroe

8th November 2019, 05:28 AM	#11
Robin Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 11,018	Originally Posted by psionl0 I'm guessing that Margaret Court would strongly agree. Certainly. It is a terrible oppression that some people are less enthusiastic about her sporting achievements than she would like them to be. And a few people voiced the opinion that the arena named for her should be renamed. And all based on nothing at all except the fact that she is religious. I am certainly glad I never faced that kind of discrimination in my life.
	__________________ The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax" Last edited by Robin; 8th November 2019 at 05:31 AM.

8th November 2019, 01:39 PM	#12
rjh01 Gentleman of leisure Tagger Join Date: May 2005 Location: Flying around in the sky Posts: 24,987	Originally Posted by Robin Certainly. It is a terrible oppression that some people are less enthusiastic about her sporting achievements than she would like them to be. And a few people voiced the opinion that the arena named for her should be renamed. And all based on nothing at all except the fact that she is religious. I am certainly glad I never faced that kind of discrimination in my life. This is so far wrong as to be offensive. She expressed certain points of view that were very unhealthy. Something like "go kill yourself." Not what most people would want to be associated with.
	__________________ This signature is for rent.

8th November 2019, 02:24 PM	#13
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 15,170	Originally Posted by rjh01 This is so far wrong as to be offensive. She expressed certain points of view that were very unhealthy. Something like "go kill yourself." Not what most people would want to be associated with. I know that Margaret Court set herself at odds when she claimed that homosexuality was a choice but I have never seen anything like that reported. Have you got a source for that or are you making it up?
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

8th November 2019, 05:03 PM	#14
rjh01 Gentleman of leisure Tagger Join Date: May 2005 Location: Flying around in the sky Posts: 24,987	Originally Posted by psionl0 I know that Margaret Court set herself at odds when she claimed that homosexuality was a choice but I have never seen anything like that reported. Have you got a source for that or are you making it up? I must admit I have reworded what she said. But that is what it amounted to. Discrimination against minority groups, like what she did, is telling people they should not exist.
	__________________ This signature is for rent.

8th November 2019, 06:23 PM	#15
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 15,170	Originally Posted by rjh01 I must admit I have reworded what she said. But that is what it amounted to. Discrimination against minority groups, like what she did, is telling people they should not exist. Not even close. Your emotions really ran away with you on this one. She is quoted as saying “I have gay people in the church. It is nothing against the people themselves, I just said what the Bible said. If I can’t say what the Bible says, there is something wrong.” (https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/spo...06-p53821.html). It's a little bit more than that, it is her claim that homosexuality is a choice that marks her as controversial. However, that is still a long way from "telling people they should not exist". If her views are costing Tennis Australia money then they have a right to refuse to honour her grand slam year and even rename her stadium. Otherwise, they are putting political correctness over profits.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975 Last edited by psionl0; 8th November 2019 at 07:48 PM.

8th November 2019, 08:20 PM	#16
rjh01 Gentleman of leisure Tagger Join Date: May 2005 Location: Flying around in the sky Posts: 24,987	Originally Posted by psionl0 Not even close. Your emotions really ran away with you on this one. She is quoted as saying “I have gay people in the church. It is nothing against the people themselves, I just said what the Bible said. If I can’t say what the Bible says, there is something wrong.” (https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/spo...06-p53821.html). It's a little bit more than that, it is her claim that homosexuality is a choice that marks her as controversial. However, that is still a long way from "telling people they should not exist". If her views are costing Tennis Australia money then they have a right to refuse to honour her grand slam year and even rename her stadium. Otherwise, they are putting political correctness over profits. That is not even close https://www.smh.com.au/sport/tennis/...31-gwhfbj.html This quote compares homosexuals with people who are child abusers. Quote: In the face of polls that show 65 per cent of Australians support gay marriage, Court said: "We know the statistics are very, very wrong. They're after our young ones, that's what they're after." Had a bit of difficulty selecting the right quote. Plenty more I could have chosen. It is not even as if it was a once off statement. I did a simple google search and found plenty of choice with a variety of dates. I selected this one at random. It is this sort of thing that caused homosexuals to call suicide hotlines. I say if one person says something to another person that causes them to get suicidal then it might as well be 'go kill yourself'. But maybe I did allow my emotions to run away. Edit. Just read your link. It appears that she has backed off a lot since my link was written.
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8th November 2019, 10:14 PM	#17
Robin Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 11,018	How did it not come across that I was being sarcastic about Court facing discrimination? Of course that wasn't discrimination. Some people criticised her. Some people talked about the stadium named after her being renamed. And some people are not as enthusiastic about her sporting achievements as she would like them to be. She does not even have the faintest clue what it is to face discrimination.
	__________________ The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax" Last edited by Robin; 8th November 2019 at 10:15 PM.

8th November 2019, 10:18 PM	#18
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 15,170	Originally Posted by rjh01 https://www.smh.com.au/sport/tennis/...31-gwhfbj.html This quote compares homosexuals with people who are child abusers. Quote: In the face of polls that show 65 per cent of Australians support gay marriage, Court said: "We know the statistics are very, very wrong. They're after our young ones, that's what they're after." When you quote something out of context you can get a very different conclusion. Here is a more complete quote: Quote: "That's what Hitler did. That's what communism did," Court said, "get in the minds of the children. There's a whole plot in our nation and in the nations of the world to get in the minds of the children." In the face of polls that show 65 per cent of Australians support gay marriage, Court said: "We know the statistics are very, very wrong. They're after our young ones, that's what they're after." She is talking about conditioning children to accept non-biblical values and not claiming that homosexuals are pedophiles.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

8th November 2019, 10:26 PM	#19
rjh01 Gentleman of leisure Tagger Join Date: May 2005 Location: Flying around in the sky Posts: 24,987	Originally Posted by psionl0 When you quote something out of context you can get a very different conclusion. Here is a more complete quote: She is talking about conditioning children to accept non-biblical values and not claiming that homosexuals are pedophiles. What is written is capable of many interpretations. Yours is a very generous one. Saying that what they are doing is similar to what communists and Hitler did. Therefore it is wrong.
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8th November 2019, 10:27 PM	#20
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 44,721	Originally Posted by psionl0 Here is a more complete quote: She is talking about conditioning children to accept non-biblical values and not claiming that homosexuals are pedophiles. Do you really think the complete quote makes Court look better?
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8th November 2019, 10:36 PM	#21
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 15,170	Originally Posted by lionking Do you really think the complete quote makes Court look better? Not much but twisting Court's words to mean that homosexuals are seeking to have sex with children is not just hyperbole or a strawman, it is a lie. I don't have a great deal of sympathy for Margaret Court myself but that doesn't mean that we should put words in her mouth in an attempt to stir up even greater hatred for her.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

9th November 2019, 04:47 AM	#22
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 88,426	Originally Posted by psionl0 When you quote something out of context you can get a very different conclusion. Here is a more complete quote: She is talking about conditioning children to accept non-biblical values and not claiming that homosexuals are pedophiles. That tends to be called "projection", she is a accusing others of what she is trying to do.
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9th November 2019, 01:43 PM	#23
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 15,170	Originally Posted by Darat That tends to be called "projection", she is a accusing others of what she is trying to do. I thought CT myself.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

9th November 2019, 03:39 PM	#24
Robin Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 11,018	Originally Posted by psionl0 Not much but twisting Court's words to mean that homosexuals are seeking to have sex with children is not just hyperbole or a strawman, it is a lie. I don't have a great deal of sympathy for Margaret Court myself but that doesn't mean that we should put words in her mouth in an attempt to stir up even greater hatred for her. I agree. In the full quote she is obviously struggling to get across her ideas, live interviews being very difficult at the best of times. But the various paraphrases in the media have been very misleading. I wouldn't say I am happy with what she did say but I am not going to condemn her for that. I have much loved older family members who have similar attitudes. More of an occasion for eye rolling than cancelling. My only point was that what she is facing could hardly be called discrimination.
	__________________ The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"

9th November 2019, 03:52 PM	#25
Robin Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 11,018	Originally Posted by Darat That tends to be called "projection", she is a accusing others of what she is trying to do. I thought that too. The various religions have always used the tactic of indoctrination at a very young age. I bet her church does it too.
	__________________ The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"

9th November 2019, 04:31 PM	#26
rockinkt Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 1,411	Originally Posted by Robin I agree. In the full quote she is obviously struggling to get across her ideas, live interviews being very difficult at the best of times. But the various paraphrases in the media have been very misleading. I wouldn't say I am happy with what she did say but I am not going to condemn her for that. I have much loved older family members who have similar attitudes. More of an occasion for eye rolling than cancelling. My only point was that what she is facing could hardly be called discrimination. The difference is your "much loved older family members" just pollute the rooms they are in or those within hearing distance with their hateful and horrible comments. Court's words - because she is a nationally recognized celebrity - pollute the entire continent.
	__________________ "Townes Van Zandt is the best songwriter in the whole world and I'll stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table in my cowboy boots and say that." *Steve Earle* "I've met Bob Dylan's bodyguards and if Steve Earle thinks he can stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table, he's sadly mistaken." *Townes Van Zandt*

9th November 2019, 06:12 PM	#27
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 15,170	Originally Posted by rockinkt The difference is your "much loved older family members" just pollute the rooms they are in or those within hearing distance with their hateful and horrible comments. Court's words - because she is a nationally recognized celebrity - pollute the entire continent. Which "hateful and horrible comments" are you referring to?
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

10th November 2019, 03:01 AM	#28
rockinkt Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 1,411	Originally Posted by psionl0 Which "hateful and horrible comments" are you referring to? Court's words and sentiments are hateful and horrible so if your family members have similar attitudes (as you posted), then their words and sentiments on the subject are obviously hateful and horrible as well. Pretty simple really.
	__________________ "Townes Van Zandt is the best songwriter in the whole world and I'll stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table in my cowboy boots and say that." *Steve Earle* "I've met Bob Dylan's bodyguards and if Steve Earle thinks he can stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table, he's sadly mistaken." *Townes Van Zandt*

10th November 2019, 12:49 PM	#29
Robin Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 11,018	Court's words were misrepresented, but what she did say still might be categorised as horrible and hateful. If a tennis player had said that tennis was full of Jews or that Jews had a disproportionate influence in tennis and that an anti semitism resource for schools was the work of the devil and compared it to the tactics of Nazism and said 'they are after our kids' I doubt that anyone would question that those comments were horrible and hateful. So, yes, 'horrible and hateful' is a fair categorisation of her words. I still say they are more an occasion for eye rolling than cancelling.
	__________________ The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"

10th November 2019, 01:02 PM	#30
Thor 2 Philosopher Join Date: May 2016 Location: Brisbane, Aust. Posts: 5,700	This is what Court said according to the Daily Telegraph: "FORMER tennis champion Margaret Court has told a Christian radio station that “tennis is full of lesbians” and transgender children are influenced by the Devil and are part of a mind control plot as seen in Nazi Germany." Pretty hateful I reckon, but then again these are views inspired by religious faith so she gets a free pass I suppose.
	__________________ Thinking is a faith hazard.

10th November 2019, 01:14 PM	#31
Thor 2 Philosopher Join Date: May 2016 Location: Brisbane, Aust. Posts: 5,700	Oh, a few more gems from Margaret: “Your thoughts — even medically they’re knowing now — the mind is a battlefield and that’s why I wrote that book Train Your Brain because the mind is, it’s all in the Bible." “God’s got so much in there about the mind how it affects us, affects our emotions, our feelings, you can think ‘oh I’m a boy’ and it’ll affect your emotions and feelings, and everything else and so that’s all the Devil." Good thing for her that she could hit a tennis ball - an intellectual giant she is not. As I have said before - "Why do so many treasure the words of celebrities. Just admire their tennis ball hitting, bowling, batting, etc, and leave their intellectual forays alone."
	__________________ Thinking is a faith hazard.

10th November 2019, 02:31 PM	#32
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 15,170	Originally Posted by rockinkt Court's words and sentiments are hateful and horrible so if your family members have similar attitudes (as you posted), then their words and sentiments on the subject are obviously hateful and horrible as well. Pretty simple really. If you can't answer a question then just admit it. Repeating the question and abusing the questioner just makes you look bad.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

10th November 2019, 03:24 PM	#33
Robin Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 11,018	Here is as full a transcript I can find of part of it: Quote: “The gay lobby is behind that bullying programme in the schools. And, you know, children not knowing … they’re taking out ‘he’ and ‘she’ and you become an ‘it’ and a ‘we’ and a ‘they’. And, you know, if you feel like being a girl you can dress like a girl if you’re a boy. And if you’re a boy … uh, I think what confusion for a child. I get confused just talking about it. “When I was little, I was very much a tomboy. My mum used to say to me, ‘you should have been a boy’. I could kick the football better than anybody, play cricket. But you know what? I always knew I was a girl. And I was conscious and I was brought up like that. And I liked wearing shorts but I liked wearing dresses. And there was never any other thought that was ever said. “But with the literature, the bullying, the stuff that’s put out today into children’s minds, I tell you what, if you haven’t got parents who bring you up that way, and you’ve got parents who don’t care and you’re hurt and offended by somebody saying something to you or … I tell you a child can just start to think well, maybe I am a girl, when they’re a boy. Or maybe I am a girl, when I’m a boy. Your thoughts, and even medically they’re knowing now, they say the mind is a battlefield. “That’s why I wrote that book, ‘Train Your Brain’… it’s all in the Bible. God’s got so much in there about the mind, how it affects us, affects our emotions, our feelings. You can think, ‘I’m a boy’ and it’ll affect your emotions and feelings and everything else. That’s all the Devil. That’s what Hitler did and that’s what Communism did: got the minds of the children. And there’s a whole plot in our nation and in the nations of the world to get the minds of the children.” As I said before if that had begun "The Jewish lobby ..." and had been about a schools resource which was intended to counter anti-semitism then there would be no question about these words being hateful or horrible. Again, Quote: “Tennis is full of lesbians because even when I was playing, there was only a couple there, but those couple that led took young ones into parties and things.”
	__________________ The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"

10th November 2019, 04:00 PM	#34
Robin Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 11,018	Just in the interests of giving Margaret Court her own words rather than paraphrase, here is a letter she sent to a newspaper criticising fellow tennis player Casey Dellacqua's family. http://newsweekly.com.au/article.php?id=56354 Again, free speech and all, but why is criticism of Court supposed to be out of bounds?
	__________________ The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"

10th November 2019, 04:36 PM	#35
Thor 2 Philosopher Join Date: May 2016 Location: Brisbane, Aust. Posts: 5,700	Originally Posted by rockinkt Court's words and sentiments are hateful and horrible so if your family members have similar attitudes (as you posted), then their words and sentiments on the subject are obviously hateful and horrible as well. Pretty simple really. Originally Posted by psionl0 If you can't answer a question then just admit it. Repeating the question and abusing the questioner just makes you look bad. Abusing the questioner - that would be you psion? Funny but I can't see rockinkt doing that. Are you using your finely tuned reading between the lines and mind reading skills again psion? A formidable talent used against myself before as I recall.
	__________________ Thinking is a faith hazard.

10th November 2019, 07:46 PM	#36
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 15,170	Originally Posted by Robin Again, free speech and all, but why is criticism of Court supposed to be out of bounds? She is not. There is much to criticize her about. Just do it on what she is saying and not put words in her mouth (I know you are not doing this).
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975