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Old 30th November 2019, 04:14 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Lots of criticism that the attacker had a terror conviction and was released on licence;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-50610215

But, one of the people who helped stop the attack, was also apparently a murderer released on licence!

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/104544...terror-attack/
That's going to cause headaches for the likes of the Daily Mail.
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Old 30th November 2019, 04:20 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
That's going to cause headaches for the likes of the Daily Mail.
The DM has an article about it and it looks, for a change, like a neutral and fact based article with no opinion.

They will just gloss over what has happened, as will the rest of the lock em up and throw away the key brigade.

Ironically, this new fame is going to mean it will be harder for James Ford to be released further on licence, since anonymity is an important part of being able to go out and rebuild a new life.
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Old 30th November 2019, 05:34 AM   #43
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Remember up thread I asked if the citizens were veterans or off duty cops? They turn out be violent prone in other ways.

Seems to me it's the violent people who are the heroes. Cops on the streets, soldiers in combat.

Now I have to ask whether the zero tolerance of violence policies are paying any dividends? Less street crime? Fewer mass attacks?
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Old 30th November 2019, 05:56 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Remember up thread I asked if the citizens were veterans or off duty cops? They turn out be violent prone in other ways.

Seems to me it's the violent people who are the heroes. Cops on the streets, soldiers in combat.
You extrapolate that from a single member of the public amongst a number who subdued the terrorist?

Quote:
Now I have to ask whether the zero tolerance of violence policies are paying any dividends? Less street crime?
What "policies" would they be?

Quote:
Fewer mass attacks?
Fewer than hardly ever isn't a particularly useful metric.
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Old 30th November 2019, 06:13 AM   #45
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Anyone planning a public space terrorist attack in the UK, will know that there is a long history of the public fighting back.
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Old 30th November 2019, 06:15 AM   #46
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Remember the terrorist attack at Glasgow airport? A baggage handler broke his ankle (I think - broke something anyway) attacking the terrorist. (Not the baggage handler who was later lionised, he only gave a gung-ho interview afterwards and quite possibly wasn't one of the ones who piled in. The guy who was actually injured was in hospital by that time.)
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Old 30th November 2019, 06:33 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
You extrapolate that from a single member of the public amongst a number who subdued the terrorist?
b) there were 4 cons on leave involved.

A) it's called"intelligence"



Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
What "policies" would they be?
The schools in America are rife with such policies.

Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Fewer than hardly ever isn't a particularly useful metric.
Yeah, tough to extrapolate the "rate". But I gave you other examples, why seize on that one?
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Old 30th November 2019, 10:20 AM   #48
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CT alert. There's now a video going around purporting to show the terrorist getting up after being shot. "Presumably he was getting tired of playing dead." It shows a man lying on the pavement for a bit, unattended, then apparently starting to get up before freezing on a very odd frame. I can't be bothered picking it apart, I'm sure someone will debunk it soon.
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Old 30th November 2019, 10:27 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
CT alert. There's now a video going around purporting to show the terrorist getting up after being shot. "Presumably he was getting tired of playing dead." It shows a man lying on the pavement for a bit, unattended, then apparently starting to get up before freezing on a very odd frame. I can't be bothered picking it apart, I'm sure someone will debunk it soon.
As always, they would've gotten away with it if only it wasn't for those meddling tinfoilhat wearing and basement dwelling neckbeards. They never learn do they?
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Old 30th November 2019, 10:38 AM   #50
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I should note here that it's quite questionable to instantly make the case that, because someone who was released from prison (whatever crimes they were convicted of) committed another crime (no matter which one), that there's nessecerily something wrong with the decision to release them in the first place.

How many people who have been convicted of terrorism related offences and have been released from prison have subsequently committed, or been caught attempting/preparing to commit, acts of terrorism?

I should note here that it's very easy for them to attack people with simple and easy to get tools like hammers or knives or even cars. So it's not like it's a question of them being incapable of committing acts of terrorism.
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Old 30th November 2019, 10:45 AM   #51
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Operation Kratos,

http://policeauthority.org/metropoli...tos-attach.pdf

"We must stress that these tactics have been developed after much research, planning and consultation. Officers have visited counterparts around the world, learning and taking on best practice..."

2 options:-
1. If 100% sure head Shot
2. If not sure, challenge from a position of safety. Officers to react dependant upon the suspect's reaction - in accordance with their training from the ACPO firearms manual of guidance."

No messing about, too high risk due the danger of explosives and the determination of the attacker, anyone in a vest who is actively attacking others will be shot in the head.
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Old 30th November 2019, 11:18 AM   #52
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And now Boris Johnston tweeted about the attack six hours before it happened. According to a screenshot taken by someone who wasn't logged in to Twitter at the time, so his time zone defaulted to US Pacific time, where Twitter's HQ is.
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Old 30th November 2019, 11:19 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
CT alert. There's now a video going around purporting to show the terrorist getting up after being shot.
I did hear/see a report he was shot again, some time afterward, presumably only a few seconds, but in any case no corroboration of that.
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Old 30th November 2019, 11:43 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
b) there were 4 cons on leave involved.

A) it's called"intelligence"
You mean the ones who were attending the very same conference the assailant was, and where he started his attack? Any evidence that they all followed him onto the Bridge and were the only people subduing him there?

Quote:
The schools in America are rife with such policies.
So utterly irrelevant to an event the UK, then.

Quote:
Yeah, tough to extrapolate the "rate". But I gave you other examples, why seize on that one?
What other examples of "mass attacks" in the UK did you give? I can't see that you did.
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Old 30th November 2019, 03:00 PM   #55
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The people who died, and, I think, those injured were all at the same conference as the attacker. Do we know for sure that terrorism was the motive and not something specific to the conference?

ETA: Ah, where he could go was limited by the terms of his release, and monitored by his ankle tag. So, it could be that this was the first occasion he could get somewhere high profile like London.
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Old 30th November 2019, 03:00 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
How many people who have been convicted of terrorism related offences and have been released from prison have subsequently committed, or been caught attempting/preparing to commit, acts of terrorism?
Something like 30% of Guantanamo inmates who have been released returned to combat. Percentages of Brits convicted domestically who will reoffend may be different, but this certainly suggests recidivism is a major problem with terrorists. Which shouldn't surprise anyone.
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Old 30th November 2019, 03:11 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
The people who died, and, I think, those injured were all at the same conference as the attacker. Do we know for sure that terrorism was the motive and not something specific to the conference?

ETA: Ah, where he could go was limited by the terms of his release, and monitored by his ankle tag. So, it could be that this was the first occasion he could get somewhere high profile like London.
Bomb vest certainly hints at it.
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Old 30th November 2019, 03:25 PM   #58
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ISIS has now claimed responsability for the London bridge attack:
Quote:
The group, however, did not provide any evidence this is the case as it made the claim through its news agency.

It added that the attack was made in response to Islamic State calls to target countries that have been part of a coalition fighting the jihadist group.

'The person who carried out the London attack... was a fighter from the Islamic State, and did so in response to calls to target citizens of coalition countries,' IS said, referring to a multi-country alliance against the group.
(https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...onference.html)

Perhaps Britain should stop its military operations against the "Islamic State" to keep its citizens safe.

But this, of course, would require a minimum of intelligence and decency from its leaders. Perhaps this is asking way too much ... .

Last edited by Michel H; 30th November 2019 at 04:57 PM.
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Old 30th November 2019, 03:31 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
ISIS has now claimed responsability for the London bridge attack:

(https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...onference.html )

Perhaps Britain should stop its military operations against the "Islamic State" to keep its citizens safe.

But this, of course, would require a minimum of intelligence and decency from its leaders. Perhaps this is asking way too much ... .

Well, we're way past expecting decency from the current incumbent of No. 10, but I'm not sure what that has to do with combating ISIS.
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Old 30th November 2019, 03:32 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Bomb vest certainly hints at it.
Good point, also the detail I only just saw that he had apparently taped a knife to each hand (not sure I'd manage to get the second knife attached without severing something vital).
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Old 30th November 2019, 04:07 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Operation Kratos,

http://policeauthority.org/metropoli...tos-attach.pdf

"We must stress that these tactics have been developed after much research, planning and consultation. Officers have visited counterparts around the world, learning and taking on best practice..."

2 options:-
1. If 100% sure head Shot
2. If not sure, challenge from a position of safety. Officers to react dependant upon the suspect's reaction - in accordance with their training from the ACPO firearms manual of guidance."

No messing about, too high risk due the danger of explosives and the determination of the attacker, anyone in a vest who is actively attacking others will be shot in the head.
I'm not going to say that the police officers act improperly, given that they likely lacked sufficient information to make a informed decision and had to act on routines, but given that he hadn't blown himself up at the event where he killed two people, it seems unlikely he would blow up when they arrived on scene.

Shooting him seems just so lazy when they could just have switched places with the guys who were pushing him down.
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Old 30th November 2019, 04:20 PM   #62
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Narwhal tusks and fire extinguishers v terrorist, brilliant!
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Old 30th November 2019, 05:05 PM   #63
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Never bring a knife to a narwhal tusk fight.

https://www.liveleak.com/view?t=CIAIO_1575110623
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Old 1st December 2019, 12:06 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
I'm not going to say that the police officers act improperly, given that they likely lacked sufficient information to make a informed decision and had to act on routines, but given that he hadn't blown himself up at the event where he killed two people, it seems unlikely he would blow up when they arrived on scene.

Shooting him seems just so lazy when they could just have switched places with the guys who were pushing him down.
You must be joking.
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Old 1st December 2019, 01:15 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
I'm not going to say that the police officers act improperly, given that they likely lacked sufficient information to make a informed decision and had to act on routines, but given that he hadn't blown himself up at the event where he killed two people, it seems unlikely he would blow up when they arrived on scene.

Shooting him seems just so lazy when they could just have switched places with the guys who were pushing him down.
I thought that as well, but past experience apparently suggests the appearance of the police makes the triggering of an explosive vest more likely. The tactic is to attack the public till the police arrive and then blown themselves up.

Information on Operation Kratos is limited, since as the report I did find is reluctant to discuss tactics in detail and how the police know what they know. I suspect interviews with terrorists involved in planning attacks, such as Khan himself, is how the police have developed their tactics.

It makes the actions of the police, who went in very close to get the public out of the way and to ensure a head shot as that makes accidental activation far less likely, very brave indeed. They must have known that as they removed the last member of public holding Khan down, that could then be the point he blows himself up.
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Old 1st December 2019, 01:22 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
You must be joking.
Why? I am retired police and I wondered why the police did not arrest. I had to do a bit of research to find out what the reasoning was. I did not know about Operation Kratos. Did you?

What is really sad is that yesterday twitter was full of police officers tweeting sarcastic and abusive comments and joining in with the trolling of those who did ask why the police did not arrest. I could not find a single police account that answered the question.

It is not an unreasonable question to ask, why did the police not formally arrest someone who citizens had already arrested?

I think it is very sad (and it certainly does the police no favours) to pour scorn on those who ask.
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Old 1st December 2019, 04:13 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I get that from the numerous videos of the incident. Members of the public go for the male with a fire extinguisher and what has been described as a narwhal tusk!? They get him on to the ground. Another is seen walking with the knife in his hand, so he appears to have disarmed the male of his knife. There is another who has the male pinned to the ground who the police have to pull off.

They were still struggling, but he was not going anywhere and crucially, his supposed suicide vest had not gone off.

Yet the police just shoot him. They make no attempt to assist with the restraint, using cuffs and fast straps that once applied means the male is not going anywhere and is under full control.

It very much appears that from Jean Charles De Menezes, the instruction for armed police is that if they just think someone maybe has an explosive, do not even try an effect an arrest, shoot them dead.

The public needs to be made fully aware of police tactics and not to tackle those who may have explosives as the police want to shoot them dead asap.
They shouted at him twice to 'stop moving!' and he continued reaching for something which they thought might be a gun or the suicide vest ignition cord/button.
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Old 1st December 2019, 04:17 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The DM has an article about it and it looks, for a change, like a neutral and fact based article with no opinion.

They will just gloss over what has happened, as will the rest of the lock em up and throw away the key brigade.

Ironically, this new fame is going to mean it will be harder for James Ford to be released further on licence, since anonymity is an important part of being able to go out and rebuild a new life.
One thing about James Ford is that although he committed a heinous and barbaric crime in slitting the throat of a learning difficulties young adult, he does seem to have a conscience and to have kep ringing up the Samaritans expressing remorse (which was how he was captured). He was a youth when he committed his crime, he's served the time. He has redeemed himself by an act of great heroism and service to others IMV. He has shown contrition and I doubt he poses a danger any longer.
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Old 1st December 2019, 04:19 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Remember up thread I asked if the citizens were veterans or off duty cops? They turn out be violent prone in other ways.

Seems to me it's the violent people who are the heroes. Cops on the streets, soldiers in combat.

Now I have to ask whether the zero tolerance of violence policies are paying any dividends? Less street crime? Fewer mass attacks?
One was an off-duty British Transport policeman and a couple of others did say they leapt from their private taxis to 'kick his head in'.
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Old 1st December 2019, 04:21 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Remember the terrorist attack at Glasgow airport? A baggage handler broke his ankle (I think - broke something anyway) attacking the terrorist. (Not the baggage handler who was later lionised, he only gave a gung-ho interview afterwards and quite possibly wasn't one of the ones who piled in. The guy who was actually injured was in hospital by that time.)
Here's remembering that brave Spanish guy with his skateboard at the earlier London Bridge stabbings.
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Old 1st December 2019, 04:27 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
I should note here that it's quite questionable to instantly make the case that, because someone who was released from prison (whatever crimes they were convicted of) committed another crime (no matter which one), that there's nessecerily something wrong with the decision to release them in the first place.

How many people who have been convicted of terrorism related offences and have been released from prison have subsequently committed, or been caught attempting/preparing to commit, acts of terrorism?

I should note here that it's very easy for them to attack people with simple and easy to get tools like hammers or knives or even cars. So it's not like it's a question of them being incapable of committing acts of terrorism.
People who commit crimes based on ideological agenda, such as the IRA, Al-Bagdadis, Bader-Meinhof, the Symbiotic (Patty Hearst) gang are far more fanatical and convinced of the righteousness of their acts ('the end justifies the means') and in that respect are much more dangerous to the public than random murderers or muggers.

When this current perp, Usman Khan, begged the probabtion services for 'deradicalisation' they should have suspected cunning manipulation because how often do people change their extreme views, be they neo-nazis or republicans?
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Old 1st December 2019, 04:35 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
The people who died, and, I think, those injured were all at the same conference as the attacker. Do we know for sure that terrorism was the motive and not something specific to the conference?

ETA: Ah, where he could go was limited by the terms of his release, and monitored by his ankle tag. So, it could be that this was the first occasion he could get somewhere high profile like London.
I have the greatest of respect and sadness for the conference coordinator who died, Jack Merritt Cambridge law graduate who was dedicated to prisoner rehabilitation work. However, it is concerning that the so-called 'innocence projects' and similar schemes are incredibly naive to think psychopathic killers are the same as the rest of us, capable of empathy, sociability and kindness towards others, together with remorse and a conscience. Truth is borderline personality criminals are not wired like normal people - as the trendy Cambridge criminology group have now learnt - and far from thanking them, the sociopathic terrorist knifed them.
,
So let's put an end to anthropomorphilising these monsters.
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Old 1st December 2019, 04:40 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
I'm not going to say that the police officers act improperly, given that they likely lacked sufficient information to make a informed decision and had to act on routines, but given that he hadn't blown himself up at the event where he killed two people, it seems unlikely he would blow up when they arrived on scene.

Shooting him seems just so lazy when they could just have switched places with the guys who were pushing him down.
The police IMV were clearly extremely well-trained, prompt and effective. They immediately pulled the 'hero' attackers away from the perp and had him surrounded. They warned him. They feared a gun. They saw the contraption around his body. Their response was exactly correct and absolutely unavoidable having put themselves in harm's way.
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Old 1st December 2019, 04:41 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
Narwhal tusks and fire extinguishers v terrorist, brilliant!
I love it. It has to be the video of the year.
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Old 1st December 2019, 04:43 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Never bring a knife to a narwhal tusk fight.

https://www.liveleak.com/view?t=CIAIO_1575110623
That narwhal whale did not die in vain. Fang you.
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Old 1st December 2019, 09:44 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
....
It is not an unreasonable question to ask, why did the police not formally arrest someone who citizens had already arrested?

...
Because one slip and Kaboom! How many could have died?

Related drift: Next thing we know the Brits will be outlawing fire extinguishers and narwal tusks.
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Old 1st December 2019, 09:51 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
One was an off-duty British Transport policeman and a couple of others did say they leapt from their private taxis to 'kick his head in'.
And wasn't it cons who grabbed the tusk and the fire extinguisher?

And once again, you people missed the question in my post. Let me add a preface: {In light of the reaction of the violent populace}

Quote:
Now I have to ask whether the zero tolerance of violence policies are paying any dividends? Less street crime? Fewer mass attacks?
Or will the zero tolerance policies we are using on raising our children mean fewer heroes in the future?
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Old 1st December 2019, 10:07 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
And wasn't it cons who grabbed the tusk and the fire extinguisher?

And once again, you people missed the question in my post. Let me add a preface: {In light of the reaction of the violent populace}



Or will the zero tolerance policies we are using on raising our children mean fewer heroes in the future?
Narwhal tusk man was a Polish kitchen worker - not a delegate - identified only as 'Lukasz'.


Bloody EU citizen confronting our terrorists.
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Old 1st December 2019, 10:14 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Something like 30% of Guantanamo inmates who have been released returned to combat. Percentages of Brits convicted domestically who will reoffend may be different, but this certainly suggests recidivism is a major problem with terrorists. Which shouldn't surprise anyone.
You don't think being banged up somewhere like Guantanamo might just antagonise more than rehabilitate?
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Old 1st December 2019, 10:15 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
ISIS has now claimed responsability for the London bridge attack:
If my toaster caught fire, ISIS would claim responsibility.
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