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Old 27th November 2019, 09:23 AM   #81
Archie Gemmill Goal
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
They were both planned. Just that one society had limited knowledge and mobility. Seriously, stop implying that early human settlers had no agency. It's demeaning and infantilizing to them.

Now, can you state why you think there is a moral difference between claiming unoccupied land after travelling on foot versus claiming unoccupied land after travelling by boat?
Did you get bored halfway through my sentence and stop reading or are you just being dishonest?

Hint: It's not the planned part that is the issue. It's the systemic colonisation of swathes of territory for expansion of your empire and economic benefit.

I'll give you one last chance to respond sensibly.
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Old 27th November 2019, 09:33 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post

Hint: It's not the planned part that is the issue. It's the systemic colonisation of swathes of territory for expansion of your empire and economic benefit.
So the peaceful settling of first peoples on the falklands is tainted by the activities of Britain in other parts of the world? Personally, i'd view british activity in the falklands in 1840 differently to british activity in india in the 1840s.

Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post

I'll give you one last chance to respond sensibly.
Well, look who's planting their flag over this thread. I assume you were the first poster?
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Old 27th November 2019, 09:36 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Do you honestly think there is no difference between what happened and the King of Norway sending out a military expedition to claim the land and then settling it with Norwegians and claiming it as part of Norway?
No, as you can tell by my continual comments that there are similarities. But I see it as a much less significant difference than that between settling on a patch of land that has nobody living on it, and settling on a patch of land by virtue of enslaving or otherwise dispossessing the people already living on it; and equating the two situations by referring to both as "colonisation" seems to me more than a little misleading.

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Old 27th November 2019, 09:40 AM   #84
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I think the thing I'm struggling to understand is, why should today's Falkland islanders have no right to have their property and their way of life defended from theft?
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Old 27th November 2019, 09:46 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
So the peaceful settling of first peoples on the falklands is tainted by the activities of Britain in other parts of the world? Personally, i'd view british activity in the falklands in 1840 differently to british activity in india in the 1840s.
Of course it is. It's all part of the same thing. it's only 'peaceful' because nobody put up a fight.

I mean you can view thing X and thing Y differently. You can view Hitler's annexation of the Sudetenland differently than his invasion of Poland. It doesn't make either of them OK.
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Old 27th November 2019, 09:50 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Of course it is. It's all part of the same thing. it's only 'peaceful' because nobody put up a fight.

I mean you can view thing X and thing Y differently. You can view Hitler's annexation of the Sudetenland differently than his invasion of Poland. It doesn't make either of them OK.
It also doesn't make either of them analogous to the settlement of the Falklands.
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Old 27th November 2019, 09:53 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Of course it is. It's all part of the same thing. it's only 'peaceful' because nobody put up a fight.

I mean you can view thing X and thing Y differently. You can view Hitler's annexation of the Sudetenland differently than his invasion of Poland. It doesn't make either of them OK.
There was no one in the Falklands! No one was dispossessed, or colonized, or invaded. (As opposed to British India, or Germany in Poland etc etc).
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Old 27th November 2019, 09:55 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
It also doesn't make either of them analogous to the settlement of the Falklands.
I don't think I ever said it did. But I would argue that the 'peaceful settling' of the Sudetenland is definitely tainted by the bigger picture of the activities of Nazi Germany in other areas.
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Old 27th November 2019, 10:00 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I think the thing I'm struggling to understand is, why should today's Falkland islanders have no right to have their property and their way of life defended from theft?

Colonist bastards, displacing all those penguin.
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Old 27th November 2019, 10:01 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I think the thing I'm struggling to understand is, why should today's Falkland islanders have no right to have their property and their way of life defended from theft?
You would have to ask someone who argued that.

Of course had Argentina won the battle and taken over then there wouldn't really have been much room for those defending colonisation to complain since apparently having the resources to take over and defend a territory is apparently sufficient to establish ownership.
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Old 27th November 2019, 10:02 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Colonist bastards, displacing all those penguin.
But what if they were Emperor penguins?
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Old 27th November 2019, 10:04 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Colonist bastards, displacing all those penguin.

Plenty penguins still there mate. The colonialist bastards positively encourage them to come up and pose nicely with the tourists.
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Old 27th November 2019, 10:16 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
No, as you can tell by my continual comments that there are similarities. But I see it as a much less significant difference than that between settling on a patch of land that has nobody living on it, and settling on a patch of land by virtue of enslaving or otherwise dispossessing the people already living on it; and equating the two situations by referring to both as "colonisation" seems to me more than a little misleading.

Dave
Fair enough I can see your point but still disagree. I would say that they are both colonisation because they were done by the same system with the same intent and with the same methods. And that's why they are the same thing.

Specifically on the Falklands that was a territory that was in dispute for centuries prior to the permanent settlement by Britain. Its not as if Britain just came across it one day and suddenly a boat load of people moved there to start farming.

Had the Spanish been in the stronger position to claim it and defend it and it had ended up part of Argentina then it would have been equally illegitimate but possibly less obviously ridiculous.

It's clearly better that there wasn't an indigenous population to displace but I don't think that is the be all and end all. It's a mere accident that this is the case. The reason why the Falklands is British is because Britain had an empire gained by the sword that exploited its colonies for economic benefit. This gave it the economic and military might to take control of and hold onto whichever bits of land they saw fit to take. The whole damn lot of it is tainted in my book.
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Old 27th November 2019, 10:33 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Specifically on the Falklands that was a territory that was in dispute for centuries prior to the permanent settlement by Britain. Its not as if Britain just came across it one day and suddenly a boat load of people moved there to start farming.
Actually, that's pretty much what did happen originally. France did the same thing about the same time. Spain then chucked both groups out by force, and that's where the dispute began.

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Old 27th November 2019, 10:47 AM   #95
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The Falklands had no permanent settlement until fairly recent history. It's not hard to see why. They're very far from the mainland and the land is challenging to farm. Indeed, it's much more suitable for livestock farming than for crop cultivation. A few settlers dropping off in a coracle isn't going to happen. It's going to take a lot of effort to get there and a lot more to get the resources there that you'll need to get a self-sustaining colony started. If it was even possible, nobody thought it was worth the effort.

Then in the end it happened. There are people there now who were born there like their parents before them. They own land, they have a government and laws and currency and an economy. The islands have become their home and they have become the islands' first true inhabitants.

Why should they have no right to assistance to defend their property from theft?
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Old 27th November 2019, 11:10 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Actually, that's pretty much what did happen originally. France did the same thing about the same time. Spain then chucked both groups out by force, and that's where the dispute began.

Dave
I think this discussion has run its course. I disagree with your view. You disagree with mine. We haven't been able to convince each other and I don't think we ever will. I at least appreciate that you were able to discuss it in good faith.
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Old 27th November 2019, 11:15 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Why should they have no right to assistance to defend their property from theft?
Whether or not they have a right to assistance when threatened is a different question than whether the UK has a rightful claim on the territory or whether 4 generations of living there gives you ownership.

Although I am tempted to say 'live by the sword, die by the sword' I don't think that would be fair to the current inhabitants.
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Old 27th November 2019, 11:17 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Whether or not they have a right to assistance when threatened is a different question than whether the UK has a rightful claim on the territory or whether 4 generations of living there gives you ownership.

Although I am tempted to say 'live by the sword, die by the sword' I don't think that would be fair to the current inhabitants.
They have four Typhoons based there.
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Old 27th November 2019, 11:34 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Claiming the Falklands is part of the UK and, even sillier, part of the European Union is a nonsense.
They've never been either.
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Old 27th November 2019, 11:46 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I think it is irrelevant whether you call them "indigenous" or not. Frankly, does "indigenous" actually accord anyone a greater right than a non-indigenous person?
Somewhat ironically, the Chagossians have been mentioned in this thread as a group whose rights need defending/reasserting, even though they were just as much a transplanted population as the Falklands Islanders, just about 50 years earlier. If we believe - as I think most here would - that the Chagossians should be allowed to return and reclaim Diego Garcia, then the same applies to the Falklanders in situ.

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Old 27th November 2019, 12:01 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Whether or not they have a right to assistance when threatened is a different question than whether the UK has a rightful claim on the territory or whether 4 generations of living there gives you ownership.

Although I am tempted to say 'live by the sword, die by the sword' I don't think that would be fair to the current inhabitants.

The question has always been whether the population should be defended from a foreign invader.
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Old 27th November 2019, 12:05 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
The question has always been whether the population should be defended from a foreign invader.

Yes, they should (but only if one is in a precarious position with regard to the next election and one needs a rousing victory to get reelected and so have slowly reduced the defence cover in the area over a few years to attempt to induce an invasion in the hopes of remaining PM)
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Old 27th November 2019, 12:19 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Yes, they should (but only if one is in a precarious position with regard to the next election and one needs a rousing victory to get reelected and so have slowly reduced the defence cover in the area over a few years to attempt to induce an invasion in the hopes of remaining PM)

I did cover that in a previous post. I think the islanders were lucky that Argentina moved when it did. Another ten or twenty years and the outcome might have been very different.

The precarious nature of their existence was something that struck me while I was there. (By the way, I mistook the population by a factor of ten. It's about 3,400, not 30,000 as I typed.) If Argentina wasn't a threat they'd be fine. It's a small population but they work together (and they have a tremendous work ethic) and their economy washes its face. They can afford stuff, including 50,000 to fly someone to Santiago in a medical emergency that their own hospital can't cope with.

But Argentina is the wolf at the door. The islanders need a knight in shining armour. Archie thinks that they shouldn't get that because he suspects the motives of the knight in shining armour. I see Argentina, and then a few days later I pitch up at Port Stanley, and my sympathies are with the islanders.

But the knight in shining armour is busy cutting its own throat. It's downgrading its economy and its status in the world. It may easily come to the point when it decides that whatever advantage there might have been to keeping the Falklands as a protectorate is no longer worth the expense. In which case, poor islanders.
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Old 27th November 2019, 12:45 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
They've never been either.
You are correct. I mis-spoke there and stand corrected. I had googled something earlier that said Overseas Territories were part of the EU but I see on further digging that they are not.

I think the UK thing is a bit more of a fudge. Technically they are not part of the UK but the territory is under the sovereignty of the UK.

Further confusing is added by the fact that the people are UK citizens (and therefore by extension EU citizens for the time being)
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Old 27th November 2019, 12:46 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Somewhat ironically, the Chagossians have been mentioned in this thread as a group whose rights need defending/reasserting, even though they were just as much a transplanted population as the Falklands Islanders, just about 50 years earlier. If we believe - as I think most here would - that the Chagossians should be allowed to return and reclaim Diego Garcia, then the same applies to the Falklanders in situ.
I mentioned them earlier, did you disagree with my characterising them as a different case?
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Old 27th November 2019, 12:53 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Somewhat ironically, the Chagossians have been mentioned in this thread as a group whose rights need defending/reasserting, even though they were just as much a transplanted population as the Falklands Islanders, just about 50 years earlier. If we believe - as I think most here would - that the Chagossians should be allowed to return and reclaim Diego Garcia, then the same applies to the Falklanders in situ.

That's been in my mind all through this. The Chagossians are an extremely similar case to the Falkland Islanders, in that they were a small but self-sustaining population on a group of previously uninhabited islands who had been there for at least four generations.

Instead of defending their right to their land and property the British drove them out and eventually forced them out, killing their pets in front of their eyes in a bid to demonstrate how ruthless and determined they were.

Main difference? Skin colour.

I think it's disgusting and one of the most appalling episodes in an admittedly strong field of British Empire atrocities. The more so since it happened in the 1960s, some time after we were all being told about how the benevolent British were voluntarily withdrawing from their empire and handing the land back to the indigenous inhabitants.

I don't think the Falkland Islanders should be treated like the Chagossians though. I think the Chagossians should have been (and still could be) afforded the same rights as the Falkland Islanders.
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Old 27th November 2019, 12:55 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
The question has always been whether the population should be defended from a foreign invader.
No, the question I raised to you was whether being somewhere for 4 generations made you legitimate owners of the territory. And we have spent the last 3 or 4 pages discussing the legitimacy of the claim of the UK on the territory.
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Old 27th November 2019, 12:55 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
(and therefore by extension EU citizens for the time being)

No, I really don't think they are. No more than the citizens of the Channel Isles or the Isle of Man. I may be wrong, but that was my understanding.
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Old 27th November 2019, 12:56 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Archie thinks that they shouldn't get that
Gonnae no dae that? Jist gonnae no.
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Old 27th November 2019, 01:06 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
No, I really don't think they are. No more than the citizens of the Channel Isles or the Isle of Man. I may be wrong, but that was my understanding.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britis...ories_Act_2002

This Act as far as I can tell made them full UK citizens and as such they automatically become EU nationals.

Guernsey and Jersey citizens appear to be EU citizens as well incidentally although not via this act and also with restrictions on FoM
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Old 27th November 2019, 01:09 PM   #111
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It's the "as far as I can tell" part that gets me. I couldn't actually follow from that whether they had right of abode in the UK.
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Old 27th November 2019, 01:20 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
It's the "as far as I can tell" part that gets me. I couldn't actually follow from that whether they had right of abode in the UK.
From the Wiki...

Quote:
This has allowed residents of British Overseas Territories to apply for and travel on a separate British passport describing them as a British citizen, to reside in the UK permanently without being subject to UK immigration control, to join the British armed forces and police forces, and to exercise rights under the Human Rights Act. Although not explicitly stated, the act also granted them EU citizenship through UK's membership in the European Union, which (until UK's withdrawal from the EU is finalized) means that BOTCs with British citizen passports are afforded all rights accorded to EU citizens in any EU country.
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Old 27th November 2019, 01:31 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
I mentioned them earlier, did you disagree with my characterising them as a different case?
Rolfe actually mentioned them first. I don't see their claims to be fundamentally different from the Falkland Islanders, which are primarily about the length of occupation. Originally the islands were found by the Portuguese, and later claimed by the French, then the British. France gave them up after Napoleon's defeat in 1814. Although some of the original inhabitants were slaves brought from Mauritius by the French, by 1840 they were all free, and there were subsequent free arrivals from both Africa and South Asia.
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Old 27th November 2019, 01:32 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
From the Wiki...

Thanks. I think that is possibly a different article from the one I was reading. I remember that Falkland Islanders didn't have the right of abode in 1982.
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Old 27th November 2019, 01:38 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Thanks. I think that is possibly a different article from the one I was reading. I remember that Falkland Islanders didn't have the right of abode in 1982.
Yes, I recall a line in the BBC drama An Ungentlemanly Act, when the Argentine Air Force representative on the Islands before the invasion pointed out that the Islanders had been locked out by changing UK nationality laws, the same as most other Commonwealth citizens.
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Old 27th November 2019, 01:59 PM   #116
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Ironically the Argentine government has handed them (unwanted) full Argentine citizenship, so they (the Argentinians) can claim that the islands are inhabited entirely by Argentinian nationals!
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Old 27th November 2019, 02:02 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Plenty penguins still there mate. The colonialist bastards positively encourage them to come up and pose nicely with the tourists.
Uncle Pingus every one.
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Old 27th November 2019, 02:09 PM   #118
Archie Gemmill Goal
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Rolfe actually mentioned them first. I don't see their claims to be fundamentally different from the Falkland Islanders, which are primarily about the length of occupation. Originally the islands were found by the Portuguese, and later claimed by the French, then the British. France gave them up after Napoleon's defeat in 1814. Although some of the original inhabitants were slaves brought from Mauritius by the French, by 1840 they were all free, and there were subsequent free arrivals from both Africa and South Asia.
I don't know if the 'claims' are different as I haven't examined either set in detail. But the cases are different.

The Chagossians are primarily the descendants of African slaves brought there against their will. They didn't colonise the islands. If they were the descendants of the French or Portuguese there might be better parallels.

Also note that they don't seem to claim that the Chagos Islands are the territory of either France, Portugal or any of their home African nations nor that they are personally French/Portuguese/Mauritian or anything similar.

The Chagossians are people who ended up on the islands through no fault or volition of their own and made it home. I'm not sure I would class them as totally indigenous but they are certainly closer to it than Falklanders are.

The Falklanders are the equivalents of if the French/Portuguese continued to inhabit the islands. Continued to call themselves French/Portuguese had French/Portuguese citizenship and a French/Portuguese military presence there for defence.
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Old 27th November 2019, 02:15 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Thanks. I think that is possibly a different article from the one I was reading. I remember that Falkland Islanders didn't have the right of abode in 1982.
It seems things have changed - although it seems that historically they could get UK citizenship if they wanted it, they now have it as automatic right.

It's all bollocks. Some rocks in the middle of the south atlantic aren't British. A rock off the Spanish coast isn't British. Some rocks in the middle of the Indian Ocean aren't British.

Let's face it, if Brazil or China sailed a boat up to one of the uninhabited Scottish islands you wouldn't be OK with them establishing a colony there just because nobody else is living there and I doubt you would be saying 50 years later it's now Brazil or China because people have lived there for 50 years speaking Portuguese/Chinese.
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Old 27th November 2019, 02:16 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
The Chagossians are people who ended up on the islands through no fault or volition of their own and made it home. I'm not sure I would class them as totally indigenous but they are certainly closer to it than Falklanders are.
That's clearly not true, any more than saying that all Australians are descended from convicts, because a lot of the early inhabitants were. The population of the Chagos Islands were augmented by later incomers the same way the Falklands were.
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