IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » General Skepticism and The Paranormal
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags bigfoot , bigfoot sightings , NAWAC

Closed Thread
Old 15th March 2015, 05:51 AM   #601
William Parcher
Show me the monkey!
 
William Parcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 26,646
There are two things to be evaluated and although they are closely related they are not the same thing.

1. The evidence presented.
2. The people.
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.
William Parcher is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 15th March 2015, 06:25 AM   #602
dmaker
Graduate Poster
 
dmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1,738
Originally Posted by Night Walker View Post
Hey! That's an interesting article - thanks for that...

However, I think you are missing the point - the "excluded middle" is not about having "no lies" nor "no truth". It's more about appreciating the subjectivity of the human experience (ie it is possible for any of us to have an intense anomalous experience which are subjectively real despite not being objectively so) and it is most certainly not "boring"...

Would anyone be interested in exploring Hill's article (and it's possible ramifications) in another thread?



The BLAARG hypothesis generally regards Bigfoot to be the product of 90% lies and 10% misidentification (false belief). 90% of Bigfoot claims are from people who know Bigfoot doesn't exist but just make-believe otherwise? Is that not a dismissal of the role of true believers in bigfootery? If 90% of Bigfooters are knowingly "in on it" then that's one hellova conspiracy theory...

There is no evidence that Bigfoot exists but there is plenty of evidence that some people believe otherwise. Belief. It only takes and requires a small amount of fakery to foster a false belief. Belief and the ostension of belief (the "experience") do the rest. I reckon 10% "lies" (objectively false), 90% "truth" (subjectively real) would be more accurate...
We've been over this before. Perhaps a thread exploring the BLAARG theory specifically might be of interest.

The largest obstacle to accepting the notion that 90% of claimed believers actually do believe is their actions. The incongruity between a believers actions and words expose the veracity of their belief in my opinion. Someone who truly believes would alert the authorities to the potential danger. You would expect a believer to pursue their quarry to obtain photographic evidence. Why is it that in the many, many claimed encounters the believer always fails to go that one extra step to be in a better position to record the creatures existence? Why do they never wait at the bottom of the tree for their quarry to exit? Why do they not enter these discovered "nests" and collect samples for testing? The scenarios, and the failure to commit, are endless and bespeak, to me at least, of a lack of conviction that can easily be explained by game theory.
dmaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 15th March 2015, 06:37 AM   #603
Castro
Muse
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 752
Originally Posted by Night Walker View Post
Hey! That's an interesting article - thanks for that...

However, I think you are missing the point - the "excluded middle" is not about having "no lies" nor "no truth". It's more about appreciating the subjectivity of the human experience (ie it is possible for any of us to have an intense anomalous experience which are subjectively real despite not being objectively so) and it is most certainly not "boring"...
It could be, but I don't leave in wonderland and have no intention to move there. Concerning Sharon Hill, I think that a certain fascination for what you call "anomalous experiences" and her will to remain in this "excluded middle" (fence-sitting) have led her to forget to make some basic research about NAWAC before blogging. I may be wrong.

Last edited by Castro; 15th March 2015 at 07:02 AM.
Castro is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 15th March 2015, 07:02 AM   #604
Donn
Philosopher
 
Donn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In my head.
Posts: 7,758
A short break for fun with ParaBreakdown: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikvuMaYKztE
It's 30 mins, a podcastish conversation. And it's hilarious!
__________________
"If I hadn't believed it with my own mind, I would never have seen it." - thanks sackett
"If you stand on a piece of paper, you are indeed closer to the moon." - MRC_Hans
"I was a believer. Until I saw it." - Magrat
Donn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 15th March 2015, 09:35 AM   #605
GT/CS
Illuminator
 
GT/CS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Inland NW
Posts: 4,942
Originally Posted by Castro View Post
I don't think she will be interested. She seems to enjoy being in the "excluded middle".
http://www.csicop.org/specialarticle..._extraordinary

The excluded middle, a place with no lies and no truth? It must be boring.
That excerpt reads like an advertisement for her new business.
__________________
Normal in a weird way.
GT/CS is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 15th March 2015, 10:26 AM   #606
tsig
a carbon based life-form
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 39,049
Originally Posted by GT/CS View Post
That excerpt reads like an advertisement for her new business.
We are constantly chided for not keeping an open mind and not being TrueTM Skeptics but at some point aren't you supposed to decide between A and B?

Since I have never seen a shred of evidence that supernatural phenomenon or bigfoot exist I conclude they do not exist, if this means I fall short of the Holy Grail of absolute blank mindedness and never ending examinations of whether water is still wet, well, so be it.
tsig is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 15th March 2015, 10:48 AM   #607
Cervelo
Graduate Poster
 
Cervelo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 1,532
Edited by Agatha:  Edited breach of rule 12. Members are protected from personal attacks.

Last edited by Agatha; 15th March 2015 at 12:15 PM.
Cervelo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 15th March 2015, 04:29 PM   #608
Night Walker
Critical Thinker
 
Night Walker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 262
Originally Posted by jhunter1163 View Post
I'm sure the percentages of lies vs. misidentifications could be debated, but the percentage of actual verified, authentic Bigfeet remains zero.
I agree. My point is that the BLAARG hypothesis largely dismisses the role of belief (10%) rather than taking it into consideration...

Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
Indeed, a closer look at comments from those of us who support the BLAARG hypothesis will reveal that we're all over the map in terms the proportion of accounts we attribute to it. The NAWACkies are probably a combination of hoaxer/landowner, true believers, and BLAARGers.
The great thing about the BLAARG hypothesis is that it has not been formalized and officially defined so in it's ambiguity it becomes all things to everyone (kind of like Bigfoot itself). Something goes bump in the woods - oh, that must be Bigfoot; someone claims a Bigfoot experience - oh, they are just BLAARGing. People who value the scientific approach should do better...

Shrike - I've never seen you challenge the 90% lies, 10% misidentifications for BLAARGing before so in your opinion is this NAWAC report made up of 90% hoaxer/landowner + BLAARGers (who are in on it and know Bigfoot does not exist but make-believe otherwise) and 10% true believers or some other ratio?

Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
There are two things to be evaluated and although they are closely related they are not the same thing.

1. The evidence presented.
2. The people.
I agree. I doubt that the evidence presented by NAWAC will inspire any unbiased biologists to get out in the field in search of "wood apes" but a closer look at the people involved would be most enlightening. Are 90% of them in on the conspiracy, WP?

Originally Posted by dmaker View Post
The largest obstacle to accepting the notion that 90% of claimed believers actually do believe is their actions. The incongruity between a believers actions and words expose the veracity of their belief in my opinion. Someone who truly believes would alert the authorities to the potential danger. You would expect a believer to pursue their quarry to obtain photographic evidence. Why is it that in the many, many claimed encounters the believer always fails to go that one extra step to be in a better position to record the creatures existence? Why do they never wait at the bottom of the tree for their quarry to exit? Why do they not enter these discovered "nests" and collect samples for testing? The scenarios, and the failure to commit, are endless and bespeak, to me at least, of a lack of conviction that can easily be explained by game theory.
Not necessarily. You are viewing the perceived incongruity between NAWAC's actions (and non-actions) and claims from only your own perspective and expectations rather than from that of the "Bigfoot "research"/enthusiast culture itself (which seems to incorporate a mistrust of "official" authority and knowledge). If Bigfoot is a cultural phenomenon/construct then in order to understand why Bigfooters act as they do we need to examine that culture (and the people who buy into it). Dismissing them (90% of them) as dishonest is a hindrance to better understanding...

We don't need to take their statements as gospel truth nor buy into it but we do need to show more respect to these folk and their particular (sub-)culture if we want to better understand what is going on rather than simply imposing our own beliefs (like 90% lies, 10% misidentifications) on them. Belief is a sensitive issue - show it some real respect...

If Bigfooting is a game that can be best be explained by game theory then where are the rules? Why do none ever discuss the rules? How can anyone ever learn the rules without ever discussing it? So if Bigfooting is better explained via game theory then the BLAARG hypothesis is a fine example of conspiracy theory.

You're right, though - perhaps we need a new thread to specifically discuss the BLAARG hypothesis. Any takers on defining the parameters of the BLAARG hypothesis?

Originally Posted by Castro View Post
It could be, but I don't leave in wonderland and have no intention to move there. Concerning Sharon Hill, I think that a certain fascination for what you call "anomalous experiences" and her will to remain in this "excluded middle" (fence-sitting) have led her to forget to make some basic research about NAWAC before blogging. I may be wrong.
That's great for you but it is natural for different people to want to take different paths. Can you enlighten the rest of us non-BLAARG-hypothesizers on the make-up of this basic research about NAWAC that we have apparently neglected?
Night Walker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 15th March 2015, 04:51 PM   #609
William Parcher
Show me the monkey!
 
William Parcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 26,646
Originally Posted by Night Walker View Post
I agree. I doubt that the evidence presented by NAWAC will inspire any unbiased biologists to get out in the field in search of "wood apes" but a closer look at the people involved would be most enlightening. Are 90% of them in on the conspiracy, WP?
I can't say because I don't know enough about all of them. I think that most Bigfooters are only pretending to believe (that is what BLAARGing is) but that doesn't necessarily mean that every selected set of Bigfooters are mostly BLAARGers. Think about population averages and specific sets.

I think that the guys with guns at Area X are BLAARGers by design because it would be too dangerous to have true believers carrying guns there.



Quote:
Shrike - I've never seen you challenge the 90% lies, 10% misidentifications for BLAARGing before so...
IMO, BLAARGing is about people and not presented evidence. There are no misidentified encounters coming from BLAARGers because those people don't believe that Bigfoot exists in the first place. They are pretending. They don't make misidentifications of Bigfoot because they don't think it exists. All of their evidence is fabricated in one way or another.
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.
William Parcher is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 15th March 2015, 05:44 PM   #610
dmaker
Graduate Poster
 
dmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1,738
Originally Posted by Night Walker View Post

Not necessarily. You are viewing the perceived incongruity between NAWAC's actions (and non-actions) and claims from only your own perspective and expectations rather than from that of the "Bigfoot "research"/enthusiast culture itself (which seems to incorporate a mistrust of "official" authority and knowledge). If Bigfoot is a cultural phenomenon/construct then in order to understand why Bigfooters act as they do we need to examine that culture (and the people who buy into it). Dismissing them (90% of them) as dishonest is a hindrance to better understanding...
My bold.

With respect, I think you are missing my point. I am looking at their actions from the perspective of what they claim to be--researchers. They ( amateur bigfoot researchers in general, not just NAWAC ) claim to seek evidence of the creature, yet consistently ignore or refuse to pursue opportune moments to collect said evidence. I am only expecting them to act as they claim to be.

If you believe my perspective or understanding of the role of researcher in this context to be flawed, then fine, but otherwise I struggle to understand how refusing to collect evidence is consistent with the professed role of researcher.

Last edited by dmaker; 15th March 2015 at 05:47 PM.
dmaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 15th March 2015, 05:57 PM   #611
The Shrike
Philosopher
 
The Shrike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Oklahoma, USA
Posts: 5,147
Originally Posted by Night Walker View Post
Shrike - I've never seen you challenge the 90% lies, 10% misidentifications for BLAARGing before so in your opinion is this NAWAC report made up of 90% hoaxer/landowner + BLAARGers (who are in on it and know Bigfoot does not exist but make-believe otherwise) and 10% true believers or some other ratio?
I have no idea how to make a determination as the exact proportions of believers, pretend believers, and hoaxers. More puzzling to me is what you think is so interesting about that question. If I say that BLAARGers make up 25% of bigfoot aficionados am I still a good skeptic? Is there a threshold for you at which I'd become a denialist? If so, what is that threshold - 50%? 75%? 90%?

NAWAC sounds to me like a textbook example of a non-critical thinker (Higgins) falling for some landowner's hoaxing schtick. Higgins' statements probably drew in some other folks and the thing took off from there. That landowner is still there, and probably one or more of the main players is in on the ruse and just enjoying their time "squatching" with their buds in a beautiful natural area (BLAARGing) or working with the landowner to make sure the "experiences" keep happening. So if you need me to pull some numbers out of my posterior, I'll develop a working hypothesis of 50% true believers, 40% BLAARGers, and 10% hoaxers at Area X.

I don't know if our hypothetical proportions are similar, but I agree with WP that it's the behavior of individuals that best indicates the BLAARG. For me, it's things like claiming to have seen an 8' hairy monster in the woods where you know families are taking Sunday strolls and not immediately pulling a full-on Sheriff Brody "Everybody outta the water!!!!"
The Shrike is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 15th March 2015, 06:26 PM   #612
Castro
Muse
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 752
Originally Posted by Night Walker View Post
That's great for you but it is natural for different people to want to take different paths. Can you enlighten the rest of us non-BLAARG-hypothesizers on the make-up of this basic research about NAWAC that we have apparently neglected?
You missed my point apparently. I was not talking about you (nor about "the rest of us non-BLAARG-hypothesizers") but about Sharon Hill and her (surprising for some) article on the NAWAC monograph. I suggested an explanation. As for the basic research, Jerry Wayne is doing a pretty good job in this thread imo. I would have appreciated to find that kind of work in Sharon Hill's article beside her view on the monograph.

Last edited by Castro; 15th March 2015 at 08:01 PM.
Castro is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 15th March 2015, 10:15 PM   #613
Yuchi1
Scholar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 124
Being on the adjacent (~600 yards to the north) hunting lease comprising ~3400 acres for 4+ years, absolutely no evidence of Wood Ape activity has been observed by yours truly or the wildlife biologist, federal LEO (ret.) or ODWC LEO (ret.) as well as the other four hunters on said property.

NAWAC's Area "X" apparently comprises the 10 acre plot owned by a Mr. Branson (retired federal LEO).

Given this group's propensity for spraying gunfire around the area, public safety appears to be of no concern.
Yuchi1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 15th March 2015, 10:48 PM   #614
OntarioSquatch
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,783
Originally Posted by Yuchi1 View Post
Being on the adjacent (~600 yards to the north) hunting lease comprising ~3400 acres for 4+ years, absolutely no evidence of Wood Ape activity has been observed by yours truly or the wildlife biologist, federal LEO (ret.) or ODWC LEO (ret.) as well as the other four hunters on said property.

NAWAC's Area "X" apparently comprises the 10 acre plot owned by a Mr. Branson (retired federal LEO).

Given this group's propensity for spraying gunfire around the area, public safety appears to be of no concern.
Your history of dramatic story-telling makes it difficult for me to believe anything you say. How do we know this isn't just some attempt to cast aspersions?

Last edited by OntarioSquatch; 15th March 2015 at 10:49 PM.
OntarioSquatch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 16th March 2015, 05:35 AM   #615
Yuchi1
Scholar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 124
~90% of what is on the internet is probably bovine caca, so your paranoia is well-founded.

However, when you go to the LeFlore county, Oklahoma plat map, my description of the acreages involved is clearly evidenced by that official government document.

Second, the NAWAC website and YouTube video of the aforementioned shooting incidents, are a matter of public access.

That would then leave only some form of a personal bias that you harbor against me.
Yuchi1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 16th March 2015, 05:46 AM   #616
The Shrike
Philosopher
 
The Shrike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Oklahoma, USA
Posts: 5,147
Originally Posted by Yuchi1 View Post
Being on the adjacent (~600 yards to the north) hunting lease
I find it fascinating that a couple of the highest peaks in the area support breeding Black-throated Green Warblers so far south. This really puts them just a few hundred miles from their sister species Golden-cheeked Warbler on the Edwards Plateau in Texas. Very cool area.

Originally Posted by Yuchi1 View Post
NAWAC's Area "X" apparently comprises the 10 acre plot owned by a Mr. Branson (retired federal LEO).
I've read other sources claiming he was USFS. Can you confirm (or elaborate on) his background?

Originally Posted by Yuchi1 View Post
Given this group's propensity for spraying gunfire around the area,
Other than the NAWAC website and related propaganda, can you corroborate from other sources any of their claims of shots fired?
The Shrike is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 16th March 2015, 05:57 AM   #617
Drewbot
Philosopher
 
Drewbot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 7,712
Originally Posted by Cervelo View Post
I would disagree with you on Gigantopithecus...DNA has proven them to be closely related to if not orangutans.....this is silliness promoted by Krantz and Munns Inc.
http://i796.photobucket.com/albums/y...41EC5A6328.jpg
The guy on the right looks pissed about it!!
There is no Gigantopithecus DNA.
__________________
"I dont call that evolution, I call that the survival of the fittest." - Bulletmaker
"I thought skeptics would usually point towards a hoax rather than a group being duped." - makaya325
Kit is not a skeptic. He is a former Bigfoot believer that changed his position to that of non believer.- Crowlogic
Drewbot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 16th March 2015, 05:59 AM   #618
Cervelo
Graduate Poster
 
Cervelo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 1,532
How about someone throwing out a map or GPS coordinates of the location?
Cervelo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 16th March 2015, 06:36 AM   #619
tsig
a carbon based life-form
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 39,049
Originally Posted by Cervelo View Post
How about someone throwing out a map or GPS coordinates of the location?
AlaskaBushPiliot did that a while ago in one of these threads.
tsig is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 16th March 2015, 07:03 AM   #620
Cervelo
Graduate Poster
 
Cervelo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 1,532
Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
There is no Gigantopithecus DNA.
Pretty sure I've read that in several articles but hey I could be wrong.
But you'd sure think with teeth and jawbones it would have been done.
Is it on me to prove it or do you already have the answer?
I've got no problem admitting I'm wrong if that's the case

Last edited by Cervelo; 16th March 2015 at 07:07 AM.
Cervelo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 16th March 2015, 07:04 AM   #621
Cervelo
Graduate Poster
 
Cervelo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 1,532
Originally Posted by tsig View Post
AlaskaBushPiliot did that a while ago in one of these threads.
Been there did that one or didn't find it.... Yuchi1 seems to know exactly where it is care to share?
Cervelo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 16th March 2015, 07:18 AM   #622
Yuchi1
Scholar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 124
Access to the LeFlore county plat map is a cost item however, I believe a copy of that plat page was archived and if I can locate it, will post such here.

Mr. Branson was USFS (federal) LEO.

Last edited by Yuchi1; 16th March 2015 at 07:19 AM.
Yuchi1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 16th March 2015, 07:21 AM   #623
Drewbot
Philosopher
 
Drewbot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 7,712
Originally Posted by Cervelo View Post
Pretty sure I've read that in several articles but hey I could be wrong.
But you'd sure think with teeth and jawbones it would have been done.
Is it on me to prove it or do you already have the answer?
I've got no problem admitting I'm wrong if that's the case
They were unable to derive DNA from the Giganto teeth.
It was attempted.
__________________
"I dont call that evolution, I call that the survival of the fittest." - Bulletmaker
"I thought skeptics would usually point towards a hoax rather than a group being duped." - makaya325
Kit is not a skeptic. He is a former Bigfoot believer that changed his position to that of non believer.- Crowlogic
Drewbot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 16th March 2015, 07:40 AM   #624
Cervelo
Graduate Poster
 
Cervelo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 1,532
Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
They were unable to derive DNA from the Giganto teeth.
It was attempted.
Opps my bad I guess that's what I get for "shooting my mouth off"
Well since you obviuosly did more research than I did...how did they determined it was so closely related to orangutans?

Last edited by Cervelo; 16th March 2015 at 07:45 AM.
Cervelo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 16th March 2015, 07:48 AM   #625
Cervelo
Graduate Poster
 
Cervelo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 1,532
Originally Posted by Yuchi1 View Post
Access to the LeFlore county plat map is a cost item however, I believe a copy of that plat page was archived and if I can locate it, will post such here.

Mr. Branson was USFS (federal) LEO.
Thx! Even a google earth image with the closest intersection route #s would work.
Cervelo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 16th March 2015, 07:50 AM   #626
Drewbot
Philosopher
 
Drewbot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 7,712
Probably the teeth are more like Pongids.

Enamel thickness, that type of thing.

We have an expert on things like that. But I think he bailed on the Bigfoot threads.
__________________
"I dont call that evolution, I call that the survival of the fittest." - Bulletmaker
"I thought skeptics would usually point towards a hoax rather than a group being duped." - makaya325
Kit is not a skeptic. He is a former Bigfoot believer that changed his position to that of non believer.- Crowlogic
Drewbot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 16th March 2015, 07:55 AM   #627
Cervelo
Graduate Poster
 
Cervelo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 1,532
Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Probably the teeth are more like Pongids.

Enamel thickness, that type of thing.

We have an expert on things like that. But I think he bailed on the Bigfoot threads.
Who dat?
Cervelo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 16th March 2015, 07:59 AM   #628
Resume
Troublesome Passenger
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 21,844
So at least one can say with authority that the alleged remoteness of area x is a big ole fib.
__________________
Like as the waves make towards the pebbled shore,
So do our minutes hasten to their end . . .


WS
Resume is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 16th March 2015, 08:03 AM   #629
comncents
Critical Thinker
 
comncents's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 272
My humble opinion is that "True Belief" and BLAARGing are not mutually exclusive. For instance, no less than 14 members of NAWAC have reported a confirmed "visual" - read the report - there is no chance they are missed-ID's. I don't know what percentage that is to the total, but I'm guessing most or all have reported something. They need to keep their Wood Ape cred - right? Who wants to be the one guy who never sees anything when all the other members are flinging lead at attacking wood apes?

Since there are no wood apes wondering around area X, throwing rocks, breaking trees and dodging bullets - it is reasonable to conclude that these stories are made up - BLAARGing. That being said, some of these members may still think Bigfoot is out there somewhere. One of the reasons they never admit the hoax is because they hope it will be found one day and they can say "told you so"

As far as rules...unless I missed the memo, there's no secret meeting on the rules about Santa Claus either. You play along with the general legend.
__________________
WARNING - DO NOT FEED THE BLAARGers!
comncents is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 16th March 2015, 08:06 AM   #630
Cervelo
Graduate Poster
 
Cervelo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 1,532
If its in the location I was at....there's nothing remote about it. The area was a very high use easy to access part of Qutachia NF. NF roads of high quality and obvious signs of lots of locals utilizing the area year round.
They could be eating out every night and back Squatch'in by 9pm.

Last edited by Cervelo; 16th March 2015 at 08:08 AM.
Cervelo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 16th March 2015, 08:27 AM   #631
Cervelo
Graduate Poster
 
Cervelo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 1,532
Originally Posted by comncents View Post
My humble opinion is that "True Belief" and BLAARGing are not mutually exclusive. For instance, no less than 14 members of NAWAC have reported a confirmed "visual" - read the report - there is no chance they are missed-ID's. I don't know what percentage that is to the total, but I'm guessing most or all have reported something. They need to keep their Wood Ape cred - right? Who wants to be the one guy who never sees anything when all the other members are flinging lead at attacking wood apes?

Since there are no wood apes wondering around area X, throwing rocks, breaking trees and dodging bullets - it is reasonable to conclude that these stories are made up - BLAARGing. That being said, some of these members may still think Bigfoot is out there somewhere. One of the reasons they never admit the hoax is because they hope it will be found one day and they can say "told you so"

As far as rules...unless I missed the memo, there's no secret meeting on the rules about Santa Claus either. You play along with the general legend.
This ^^^^^
Group think in action....there could very well be numerous members that are very genuine in their belief in what they heard and "saw" with no knowledge of the fix.
I've always thought the key is someone like Brian Brown he's the campaign manager of Team NAWACKY...he's the one that has the most to gain and IMO desires what Matt Moneymaker has "achieved" center stage to pontificate.
Think about it he's ex BFRO starts BFF moves on becomes the mouthpiece of the NAWACKY's no doubt hoping for the spotlight to shine his way.
Get Sharon on board could be part of a plan to take it to the next level....TV show, books, hats, tee shirts, NAWACKY stars to wear while foot'in so all will know your part of the team!
Cervelo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 16th March 2015, 09:01 AM   #632
CORed
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Central City, Colorado, USA
Posts: 10,589
Originally Posted by Cervelo View Post
If its in the location I was at....there's nothing remote about it. The area was a very high use easy to access part of Qutachia NF. NF roads of high quality and obvious signs of lots of locals utilizing the area year round.
They could be eating out every night and back Squatch'in by 9pm.
I'm not really familiar with the Ouachita Mountains area in Oklahoma, but I suspect it would be fair to say that there aren't any truly remote places there. Second or third growth forest with old logging roads all over the place is the impression I get from other posts here.

OTOH, in my experience, people who spend most of their time in cities tend to think of such areas as being really wild. People like me who have been in real wilderness laugh at them.
CORed is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 16th March 2015, 10:08 AM   #633
Yuchi1
Scholar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 124
Originally Posted by Cervelo View Post
If its in the location I was at....there's nothing remote about it. The area was a very high use easy to access part of Qutachia NF. NF roads of high quality and obvious signs of lots of locals utilizing the area year round.
They could be eating out every night and back Squatch'in by 9pm.
^^^ This.

Mr. Branson's entrance gate (for his 10 acres) fronts the K trail road.

Cannot locate the plat map screen shot. Will get back on the county website and purchase another view/screenshot and post it up here.
Yuchi1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 16th March 2015, 10:13 AM   #634
dmaker
Graduate Poster
 
dmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1,738
Yuchi, I'm curious. You mention that you have not seen any bigfoot activity in what is believed to possibly be Area X, but what is your position on bigfoot in general?
dmaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 16th March 2015, 10:14 AM   #635
Drewbot
Philosopher
 
Drewbot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 7,712
Originally Posted by Cervelo View Post
Who dat?
DINWAR
__________________
"I dont call that evolution, I call that the survival of the fittest." - Bulletmaker
"I thought skeptics would usually point towards a hoax rather than a group being duped." - makaya325
Kit is not a skeptic. He is a former Bigfoot believer that changed his position to that of non believer.- Crowlogic
Drewbot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 16th March 2015, 10:18 AM   #636
Gilbert Syndrome
Philosopher
 
Gilbert Syndrome's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Liverpool, UK
Posts: 7,301
Why on earth would there need to be an established set of rules for BLAARGing? So, if there's no fixed "system," then they're all being genuine? Ok. Well, I for one am happy to be painted as a denialist if that's what it means to be unconvinced by obvious bollocks these days.

Some people probably do genuinely believe, but I seriously doubt that they're the same people who claim to have had interactions or clear sightings of a creature that is entirely fictitious.
__________________
Generic proclamation of positivity:

Scouse saying - Go 'ed, is right, nice one, boss, well in, sound, belter, made up.

Usage: 'Go 'ed, lad, get us an ale in, nice one.'
Gilbert Syndrome is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 16th March 2015, 10:26 AM   #637
Yuchi1
Scholar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 124
plat map

Branson place in #23

Our lease in #1, 11, 12, 13, 14 & 15


link:
Attached Files
File Type: pdf LeFlore.pdf (178.0 KB, 66 views)

Last edited by Yuchi1; 16th March 2015 at 10:28 AM.
Yuchi1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 16th March 2015, 10:28 AM   #638
Resume
Troublesome Passenger
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 21,844
Originally Posted by CORed View Post
I'm not really familiar with the Ouachita Mountains area in Oklahoma, but I suspect it would be fair to say that there aren't any truly remote places there. Second or third growth forest with old logging roads all over the place is the impression I get from other posts here.

OTOH, in my experience, people who spend most of their time in cities tend to think of such areas as being really wild. People like me who have been in real wilderness laugh at them.
BLAARGers count on the fact that many (including bigfoot enthusiasts) have no clue as to the natural history and environmental exploitation of North America, promoting the fantasy of footie living in some pristine virgin wilderness well off the beaten path where no humans ever tread.

No such place.
__________________
Like as the waves make towards the pebbled shore,
So do our minutes hasten to their end . . .


WS
Resume is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 16th March 2015, 10:29 AM   #639
Yuchi1
Scholar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 124
My position on UHS/BF/WA, et. al.....live and let live.
Yuchi1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 16th March 2015, 10:29 AM   #640
Drewbot
Philosopher
 
Drewbot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 7,712
Parcher, what percentage of Civil War reinactors actually think they are fighting a battle?

What percentage of Civil War reinactors, who think they saw a ghost, describe the ghost as wearing Civil War garb?

This may be your percentage of people who think that they actually saw a Bigfoot in the woods.

Now, if you had a group of JUST CW reinactors who have seen ghosts, you might have a breakdown of what these Bigfooter groups consist of.

Basically Civil War Reinactors-Who Have Seen a Ghost, and a large percentage of them saw a ghost in Civil War Garb, they are more prone to see ghosts, and if not, they are more prone to go along with a group talk about a Civil war ghost being seen out in the field that day.
__________________
"I dont call that evolution, I call that the survival of the fittest." - Bulletmaker
"I thought skeptics would usually point towards a hoax rather than a group being duped." - makaya325
Kit is not a skeptic. He is a former Bigfoot believer that changed his position to that of non believer.- Crowlogic
Drewbot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Closed Thread

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » General Skepticism and The Paranormal

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:36 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.