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Old 3rd July 2019, 03:48 AM   #281
dann
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I don't think she was run over. But she was a proper person, which is why she protested the message of the nazis instead of supporting their rights.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 03:55 AM   #282
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
An Enemy of the People?

Obviously not an enemy of nazis.

Quote:
How has he tried to "incite violence" against anyone? By demonizing him, and legitimizing the violent attacks against him, are you not "inciting violence" yourself?

Did you read his article? The one that inspired Baylor's thread? How exactly did I "demonize" him? By pointing out that he is a lying hate mongerer?
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 3rd July 2019, 04:49 AM   #283
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Hate-monger attacked by concerned citizens ...
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 3rd July 2019, 05:00 AM   #284
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Obviously not an enemy of nazis.

Did you read his article? The one that inspired Baylor's thread? How exactly did I "demonize" him? By pointing out that he is a lying hate mongerer?
The one in the Wall Street journal? Unfortunately I don't subscribe and it's hidden behind a paywall, so no.

As far as the charge that he supports Nazis, I'm not sure he actually does that.
Just because he doesn't like antifa doesn't mean he supports Nazis. Maybe he's just opposed to violent authoritarians in general, have you considered that?
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Old 3rd July 2019, 05:09 AM   #285
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
The one in the Wall Street journal? Unfortunately I don't subscribe and it's hidden behind a paywall, so no.

As far as the charge that he supports Nazis, I'm not sure he actually does that.
Just because he doesn't like antifa doesn't mean he supports Nazis. Maybe he's just opposed to violent authoritarians in general, have you considered that?
I have considered and rejected that idea. He supports Nazis.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 05:11 AM   #286
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
No, that's normal journalists according to people like Andy Ngo.

By lying about muslims. Serisously, it's been spelled out for you.
I've investigated the claims against him as much as I could. The Wall Street journal article is behind a paywall.

What has he said about Muslims that is a lie?
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Old 3rd July 2019, 05:12 AM   #287
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I have considered and rejected that idea. He supports Nazis.
Evidence?
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Old 3rd July 2019, 05:18 AM   #288
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Evidence?
For my opinion?
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Old 3rd July 2019, 05:19 AM   #289
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
I've investigated the claims against him as much as I could. The Wall Street journal article is behind a paywall.

What has he said about Muslims that is a lie?
https://www.businessinsider.com/wall...18-8?r=US&IR=T
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Old 3rd July 2019, 05:36 AM   #290
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I already read that. Didn't see anything about inciting violence.
Poor reporting? Yeah. But not incitement to violence
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Old 3rd July 2019, 05:38 AM   #291
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
I already read that. Didn't see anything about inciting violence.
Poor reporting? Yeah. But not incitement to violence
Did he say "Kill all muslims"? No.

Did he imply "If something isn't done, soon all of the West will be like this." Yes. "Would someone rid me of this meddlesome priest?"

The latter is read as a direct call to action by many extreme rightwingers, the same type of people Andy Ngo regularly hangs around in Portland.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 05:38 AM   #292
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
I already read that. Didn't see anything about inciting violence.
Poor reporting? Yeah. But not incitement to violence
If you squint hard enough, anything is incitement. Words are violence brah.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 05:39 AM   #293
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
If you squint hard enough, anything is incitement. Words are violence brah.
They sure can be.

Pizzagate was just another wacky internet conspiracy theory, right up until the bullets started flying.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 05:49 AM   #294
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
They sure can be.

Pizzagate was just another wacky internet conspiracy theory, right up until the bullets started flying.
We will only be safe once some authority figure enforces Truth. Surely that could not end poorly. Maybe William Barr could be in charge of rounding up and prosecuting offenders.

I don't deny that 1A protects a lot of harmful speech. Conspiracy mongers, race-baiters, misogynists, and extremists of all varieties take full advantage of its protection to sow malicious thought.

It's a terrible law in that way. It's also the better than any known alternative.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 05:51 AM   #295
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
We will only be safe once some authority figure enforces Truth. Surely that could not end poorly. Maybe William Barr could be in charge of rounding up and prosecuting offenders.

I don't deny that 1A protects a lot of harmful speech. Conspiracy mongers, race-baiters, misogynists, and extremists of all varieties take full advantage of its protection to sow malicious thought.

It's a terrible law in that way. It's also the better than any known alternative.
I'd say we have a better version than the 1A. We have free speech, but with clauses for prohibited speech. You are, for example, not allowed to say "Muslims are all animals" on facebook. That's a crime. As it should be.

And, despite having these laws, we are able to not drop down any slippery slopes.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 05:52 AM   #296
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
They sure can be.

Pizzagate was just another wacky internet conspiracy theory, right up until the bullets started flying.
Some people are nuts. We canít (shouldnít) suspend free speech because of it.

Punish clear and present threats? Yes.
Punish libel and slander? Yes.
Punish having negative opinions? No.


A sanders supporter opened fire at a bunch of GOP Congressmen playing baseball. Should sanders be held responsible or his speech restricted? (Hint: no)
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Old 3rd July 2019, 06:03 AM   #297
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I'd say we have a better version than the 1A. We have free speech, but with clauses for prohibited speech. You are, for example, not allowed to say "Muslims are all animals" on facebook. That's a crime. As it should be.

And, despite having these laws, we are able to not drop down any slippery slopes.
I thought all human beings are animals? Are you suggesting Muslims aren't human? What a vile hate speech!
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Old 3rd July 2019, 06:06 AM   #298
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I thought all human beings are animals? Are you suggesting Muslims aren't human? What a vile hate speech!
If you're making a biological point, there's no realy need to specify that you're talking about Muslims. Our courts are fairly good at understanding this kind of nuance.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 06:11 AM   #299
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
If you're making a biological point, there's no realy need to specify that you're talking about Muslims. Our courts are fairly good at understanding this kind of nuance.
How nice for you to have an understanding legal system to tell you how you can phrase your remarks.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 06:24 AM   #300
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
How nice for you to have an understanding legal system to tell you how you can phrase your remarks.
It's not as dystopic as you seem to think. I'd say you'd like it if you tried it.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 06:29 AM   #301
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
It's not as dystopic as you seem to think. I'd say you'd like it if you tried it.
Oh, I definitely wouldn't. I'm far too obstreperous and quintessentially American. People telling me I can't say things really makes me want to say them. Controlling speech triggers my revolutionary instincts.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 06:37 AM   #302
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
If anybody deserves a punch in the head...
How would you finish that sentence, dann? Still tryna figure out if youíre advocating vigilantism or not, here at ISF.


Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I have considered and rejected that idea. He supports Nazis.
Where can we find Ngo doing this in print? Iíve mostly encountered him on Twitter, havenít seen what youíre talking about.


Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Did he imply "If something isn't done, soon all of the West will be like this." Yes. "Would someone rid me of this meddlesome priest?"


The latter is read as a direct call to action by many extreme rightwingers, the same type of people Andy Ngo regularly hangs around in Portland.
The latter isnít an actual quote of what Ngo wrote, though.


As far as I can tell, it isnít even a reasonable paraphrase.


It would be rather helpful here if you were to actually quote what Ngo wrote or said which makes you conclude that he hopes to incite violence against some group or another.


Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I'd say we have a better version than the 1A. We have free speech, but with clauses for prohibited speech. You are, for example, not allowed to say "Muslims are all animals" on facebook. That's a crime. As it should be.
I donít think that is actually a crime where Ngo lives, but I would also be surprised to learn that he wrote anything remotely resembling that.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 06:47 AM   #303
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
HWhere can we find Ngo doing this in print? I’ve mostly encountered him on Twitter, haven’t seen what you’re talking about.
Dunno. In my opinion he's one of the people along the path to radicalization. Loads of people there, like Jordan Peterson and Ben Shapiro. All support Nazis.

Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
The latter isn’t an actual quote of what Ngo wrote, though.


As far as I can tell, it isn’t even a reasonable paraphrase.
Hence why I wrote "implied".

Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
It would be rather helpful here if you were to actually quote what Ngo wrote or said which makes you conclude that he hopes to incite violence against some group or another.
I don't know what he intends. I only know what the effects of articles such as his are.

Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I don’t think that is actually a crime where Ngo lives, but I would also be surprised to learn that he wrote anything remotely resembling that.
And that it wouldn't be a crime is problematic, and exemplifies the problem of the American fetishization of free speech.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 06:55 AM   #304
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
In my opinion he's one of the people along the path to radicalization. Loads of people there, like Jordan Peterson and Ben Shapiro. All support Nazis.
Are there any right-of-center public figures who don't "support Nazis," as you understand it?
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Old 3rd July 2019, 06:58 AM   #305
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Are there any right-of-center public figures who don't "support Nazis," as you understand it?
Plenty. Washington post is a right of center publication that isn't known for supporting Nazis, as an example.

ETA: You said "figures", sorry.

John McCain was such a person.
Mitt Romney, at least most of the time.
Justice John Roberts is another example. Not without faults, but not a Nazi supporter.

Etc.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 07:00 AM   #306
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
And that it wouldn't be a crime is problematic, and exemplifies the problem of the American fetishization of free speech.
Setting aside for the moment that you're wrong about it being a bad thing that such speech isn't criminalized, the fact is that it's not. And since it's not, since it's legal, Andy Ngo is not committing any crime, and deserves the full protection of the law. It's a far greater problem that you and so many others can't recognize this than that Andy can say mean things.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 07:03 AM   #307
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Setting aside for the moment that you're wrong about it being a bad thing that such speech isn't criminalized, the fact is that it's not. And since it's not, since it's legal, Andy Ngo is not committing any crime, and deserves the full protection of the law. It's a far greater problem that you and so many others can't recognize this than that Andy can say mean things.
I mean, he can't say mean things if his jaw is wired shut from being clubbed in the streets by masked vigilantes. Laws are only important when they are expedient.

/s
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Old 3rd July 2019, 07:04 AM   #308
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
For my opinion?
OK, well of course, everyone's entitled to their own opinion. But it seems to me that "He supports Nazis" is a statement of fact. If you're saying that's an objective fact, I think that asking for evidence is a fair response.
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
They sure can be.

Pizzagate was just another wacky internet conspiracy theory, right up until the bullets started flying.
Actually, I do agree with you about Pizzagate. Maybe there's some common ground here? I really despise the Alex Joneses of the world and I wouldn't consider him to be a legitimate journalist by any stretch of the imagination. (I wouldn't, however, endorse physical violence against him, even though he is a loathsome person.) Is Andy Ngo comparable to Alex Jones though? I haven't seen that. Even if he were, we are still a society of laws, and you can't just go doing vigilante justice because you think someone is a real stinker.

The ACLU famously has fought for the free speech rights of some very despicable people, right?
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Old 3rd July 2019, 07:05 AM   #309
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I mean, he can't say mean things if his jaw is wired shut from being clubbed in the streets by masked vigilantes. Laws are only important when they are expedient.

/s
He wasn't clubbed in the street. The guy who was actually clubbed in the street was an anti-fascist and the clubbers where Proud Boys.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 07:07 AM   #310
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
OK, well of course, everyone's entitled to their own opinion. But it seems to me that "He supports Nazis" is a statement of fact. If you're saying that's an objective fact, I think that asking for evidence is a fair response.
It's my opinion, which I have expanded upon a bit in later posts.

Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Actually, I do agree with you about Pizzagate. Maybe there's some common ground here? I really despise the Alex Joneses of the world and I wouldn't consider him to be a legitimate journalist by any stretch of the imagination. (I wouldn't, however, endorse physical violence against him, even though he is a loathsome person.) Is Andy Ngo comparable to Alex Jones though? I haven't seen that. Even if he were, we are still a society of laws, and you can't just go doing vigilante justice because you think someone is a real stinker.
Well, you can, but you should then face punishment for it. As you say, a society of laws.

Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
The ACLU famously has fought for the free speech rights of some very despicable people, right?
Not anymore, as I understand it. They got burned in Charlottesville.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 07:07 AM   #311
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Are there any right-of-center public figures who don't "support Nazis," as you understand it?
George W Bush never endorsed nazis. He is a war criminal sure but he always made a stand against that kind of hate.

Does Forbes still count as right wing or has the center moved passed them so they are now left wing?
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Old 3rd July 2019, 07:08 AM   #312
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
He wasn't clubbed in the street.
Yes, actually, he was. Enough to have a brain hemorrhage. If you thought that all he got hit with was a milkshake, you weren't paying attention.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 07:09 AM   #313
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
George W Bush never endorsed nazis. He is a war criminal sure but he always made a stand against that kind of hate.

Does Forbes still count as right wing or has the center moved passed them so they are now left wing?
Hell, ol' saint Ron never supported Nazis. He was all kinds of problematic and likely a massive racist, but I doubt he'd support Nazis.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 07:11 AM   #314
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
The ACLU famously has fought for the free speech rights of some very despicable people, right?
Yes in the past. The problem is of course that was when no one liked nazis. Now we have a president who calls white supremacists calling for the deaths of jews as they walk past a synagogue during Shabbat fine people.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 07:11 AM   #315
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Justice John Roberts is another example. Not without faults, but not a Nazi supporter.
The guy who ruled in favor of systemically closeting transgender troops is less Nazi than the guy who got all huffy about pronouns? Um, ok.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 07:13 AM   #316
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
The guy who ruled in favor of systemically closeting transgender troops is less Nazi than the guy who got all huffy about pronouns? Um, ok.
I don't know who the second guy is.

Holding immoral right wing views isn't the same as supporting Nazis. That's why I separate Roberts out from that lot. I don't think Roberts should be on the SCOTUS, but he's not a Nazi supporter then way I see Andy Ngo, Jordan Peterson or Ben Shapiro.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 07:13 AM   #317
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
George W Bush never endorsed nazis.
Neither did Shapiro.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 07:18 AM   #318
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Neither did Shapiro.
Yes, he does. He couches it in terms of "protecting freedom of speech". He also contributes to the demonization of the enemies of the extreme right, thus contributing to radicalization. Hell, the Nazis themselves see Shapiro as a useful tool in their recruitment efforts, despite him being Jewish, or possibly because of it. It's all about being "crypto".

ETA: Here's an article explaining where Shapiro lies on the radicalization spectrum.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 07:23 AM   #319
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Yes, he does. He couches it in terms of "protecting freedom of speech". He also contributes to the demonization of the enemies of the extreme right, thus contributing to radicalization.
Whereas John Roberts doesn't talk about protecting freedom of speech even for the far-right?

I'm asking for a useful bright line here, since standing up for free speech is pretty much mainstream in the U.S.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 07:24 AM   #320
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Whereas John Roberts doesn't talk about protecting freedom of speech even for the far-right?

I'm asking for a useful bright line here, since standing up for free speech is pretty much mainstream in the U.S.
There isn't a useful bright line right now. This is virgin soil. Research is on going. I edited my last post with an article about the role Shapiro and people like him play in radicalizing young white men into becoming white supremacist terrorists.
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