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Old 20th June 2020, 08:03 AM   #1
Allen773
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Should President Barack Obama be “canceled” because of e.g. his droning of civilians?

I, for one, find America’s 44th President’s use of drone warfare deeply problematic and so I think he should be erased from American history.
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Old 20th June 2020, 08:09 AM   #2
The Great Zaganza
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That word "canceled":

I don't think it means what you think it means
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Old 20th June 2020, 08:10 AM   #3
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You've convinced me not to vote for him if he runs again.
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Old 20th June 2020, 08:25 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Allen773 View Post
I, for one, find America’s 44th President’s use of drone warfare deeply problematic and so I think he should be erased from American history.
I agree. Deeply disturbing. These actions should clearly be discussed in history books. In contrast “erased” wouldn’t contribute anything to our society or knowledge.

You probably don’t realize it but your OP has some vague link to the removal of Confederate statues! Fortunately, unlike you here, no one is proposing that these individuals be erased from history. Any more than erasing Hitler. Their good and bad should be in history books, etc. You probably haven’t been following the discussion, since you created a new thread, but the statute debate is focused on whether these individuals should be publicly honored given the evils they committed.

I will need to consider if Obama’s many statues in downtown areas should be taken down on a one by one basis.
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Old 20th June 2020, 09:18 AM   #5
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I certainly agree that Obama's use of drone strikes was a bad thing which is very much at odds with the hero worship he gets from some quarters.
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Old 20th June 2020, 09:30 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Allen773 View Post
I, for one, find America’s 44th President’s use of drone warfare deeply problematic and so I think he should be erased from American history.
Found. Past tense. We're on #45 now, and you're at least 3 1/2 years too late.
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Old 20th June 2020, 10:49 AM   #7
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Military drones didn't begin with Obama, and they'll continue in use far into any imaginable future. They'll continue to advance in speed, range, precision, lethality, and particularly sophistication. (Sophistication refers to the primary use of drones, surveillance, which is of far greater value than their attack capabilities. Bombs and missiles make good YouTube, but not cameras.)

They may even become cheaper, although let's hope not; it's best if they remain a weapon, and a tactic, only of the strong.
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Old 20th June 2020, 10:59 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
Military drones didn't begin with Obama, and they'll continue in use far into any imaginable future. They'll continue to advance in speed, range, precision, lethality, and particularly sophistication. (Sophistication refers to the primary use of drones, surveillance, which is of far greater value than their attack capabilities. Bombs and missiles make good YouTube, but not cameras.)

They may even become cheaper, although let's hope not; it's best if they remain a weapon, and a tactic, only of the strong.
This short film looks at potential consequences of cheaper more connected drones:

Slaughterbots
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Old 20th June 2020, 11:05 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Allen773 View Post
I, for one, find America’s 44th President’s use of drone warfare deeply problematic and so I think he should be erased from American history.
So, are we going to erase George W. Bush and Nixon since they indiscriminately bombed civilians as well?

I'm not really sure of your point. Are we comparing removing the monuments dedicated to the traitors who killed more Americans than in any other American war to actual Presidents. And I fail to see how removing the monuments to these traitors is erasing history.
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Old 20th June 2020, 11:06 AM   #10
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Is droning somehow worse than air or missile strikes?
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Old 20th June 2020, 12:35 PM   #11
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Any hawkishness that Obama displayed was the fault of neocon Hillary:

Militarist Monitor Profile: Hillary Clinton
https://militarist-monitor.org/profile/hillary-clinton/
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Old 20th June 2020, 12:44 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I'm not really sure of your point.
I'm going with bog-standard "Whataboutism"
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Old 20th June 2020, 02:15 PM   #13
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Many on the progressive left have definitely "cancelled" Obama over that.

And they are the ones usually doing the cancelling. Though if we're being honest he'd be cancelled for far less given the standards some so-called "aggressive progressives" hold their politicians to.
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Old 20th June 2020, 02:29 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by timhau View Post
Is droning somehow worse than air or missile strikes?
Indeed. What is so "different" about drone strikes?

A Ground Attack aircraft such as the F15, F16, F/A 18, and F-35, the A10 and AH-64, are flown by a combat pilot in the cockpit. They can carry a range of weapons systems, including...

GBU-12 Paveway II laser-guided bombs
AGM-114 Hellfire II air-to-ground missiles
GBU-38 Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM)

A Ground Attack Drone such as the MQ-1 Predator and the MQ-9 Reaper is flown by a combat pilot from a remote location. It can carry a range of weapons systems, including...

GBU-12 Paveway II laser-guided bombs
AGM-114 Hellfire II air-to-ground missiles
GBU-38 Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM)

The only difference I can see is that the pilot is sitting in a different place.
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Old 20th June 2020, 02:43 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by timhau View Post
Is droning somehow worse than air or missile strikes?
There are...specific issues with how drones target civilians using signature strikes, "double taps" that kill medics, and the like. Granted, people generally dislike the killing of civilians and non-combatants, and whether it's because of the nature of UAVs (which tend to carry sophisticated sensory equipment), or the nature of the current enemies blending into civilians, but it's a problem regardless.

(Personally, I only found him to be *slightly* to the left of Hillary Clinton, and have no idea why anyone expected some lefty mcliberal - he mostly did what he said - but nobody's that interested in *actually* canceling him - particularly since he's not really spending much time in the public eye to begin with, and not at all like "#cancelcosby" where people actually wanted his show canceled.)
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Old 20th June 2020, 02:47 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I'm going with bog-standard "Whataboutism"
Yea. But no one is suggesting that history be cancelled. Robert E Lee, Jefferson Davis, Stonewall Jackson, Nathan Bedford Forrest were and always will be traitors and white supremacists.
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Old 20th June 2020, 03:17 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
So, are we going to erase George W. Bush and Nixon since they indiscriminately bombed civilians as well?
Why not?
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Old 20th June 2020, 03:25 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Allen773 View Post
Why not?
Whatever. It's not going to happen.
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Old 20th June 2020, 03:26 PM   #19
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*Shrugs* All of our Rules for Warfare were written for different time and barely apply anymore anyway.

You can't make a distinction between civilians and soldiers to a greater degree than the enemy makes a distinction between civilians and soldiers.
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Old 20th June 2020, 03:27 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Whatever. It's not going to happen.
He knows that perfectly well. So by demanding we talk about it he keeps other things from happening.

As long as Obama isn't "uncancelled" (whatever the **** that means) over his drone strikes, then war mongerers on the Right can't be cancelled either.

In case you haven't noticed, that's becoming a pretty popular topic.

"I'm completely on the side of evil, so I'm going to demand we define where the line is draw before we go any further."
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Old 20th June 2020, 03:40 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
There are...specific issues with how drones target civilians using signature strikes, "double taps" that kill medics, and the like. Granted, people generally dislike the killing of civilians and non-combatants, and whether it's because of the nature of UAVs (which tend to carry sophisticated sensory equipment), or the nature of the current enemies blending into civilians, but it's a problem regardless.
Well that is just an argument against air strikes in general, not drones in particular.

The F-35 carries just as much sophisticated sensory equipment as a drone, probably more. In the end, regardless of whether it is a piloted aircraft or a ground/air controlled drone, it is the pilot who pulls the trigger, not the sensory equipment.
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Old 20th June 2020, 08:21 PM   #22
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The argument for drones is that the pilot has more time to make a decision, will not have the pressure of dying and can have his work reviewed in minute detail.

Drone warfare can be way more morally defensible than attack planes - that it isn't is intentional.
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Old 20th June 2020, 08:42 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
He knows that perfectly well. So by demanding we talk about it he keeps other things from happening.

As long as Obama isn't "uncancelled" (whatever the **** that means) over his drone strikes, then war mongerers on the Right can't be cancelled either.

In case you haven't noticed, that's becoming a pretty popular topic.

"I'm completely on the side of evil, so I'm going to demand we define where the line is draw before we go any further."
It's not worth talking about in my book. I'm guessing the real reason he wants to "cancel" or "erase" Obama has more to do with the color of his skin. It just bothers the hell out of them. No way could one of those people could be smarter and more eloquent than they are. No way was a colored man President.

It always kills me that the Evangelical right hated Obama, the dedicated family man who spoke kindly of almost anyone. And they love Trump, the philandering cheating whore chasing bully who treats anyone he disagrees with like ****. Obama, married a single time and Trump who was married 3 times and cheated on all of his wives including his present wife days after she gave birth to his son.

But Obama is the one they want to cancel.
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Old 20th June 2020, 08:54 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Allen773 View Post
I, for one, find America’s 44th President’s use of drone warfare deeply problematic and so I think he should be erased from American history.
Says the guy who has as his avatar a portrait of George Washington-slave owner, rum drinker and rabble-rouser.
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Old 20th June 2020, 09:14 PM   #25
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He should probably be in prison, like every other US president during my lifetime.
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Old 20th June 2020, 09:15 PM   #26
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Just what the word needs: expurgated history. Tear out the pages.

Quote:
The History Teacher

Trying to protect his students' innocence
he told them the Ice Age was really just
the Chilly Age, a period of a million years
when everyone had to wear sweaters.

And the Stone Age became the Gravel Age,
named after the long driveways of the time.

The Spanish Inquisition was nothing more
than an outbreak of questions such as
"How far is it from here to Madrid?"
"What do you call the matador's hat?"

The War of the Roses took place in a garden,
and the Enola Gay dropped one tiny atom
on Japan.

The children would leave his classroom
for the playground to torment the weak
and the smart,
mussing up their hair and breaking their glasses,

while he gathered up his notes and walked home
past flower beds and white picket fences,
wondering if they would believe that soldiers
in the Boer War told long, rambling stories
designed to make the enemy nod off.

(Billy Collins)
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Old 20th June 2020, 09:21 PM   #27
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Cancel Truman. Hiroshima was very bad.
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Old 21st June 2020, 09:50 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Allen773 View Post
I, for one, find America’s 44th President’s use of drone warfare deeply problematic and so I think he should be erased from American history.
Nice troll. Now go away.
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Old 21st June 2020, 12:33 PM   #29
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Allen773: How is the use of attack drones objectionable?
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Old 22nd June 2020, 05:06 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
It's not worth talking about in my book. I'm guessing the real reason he wants to "cancel" or "erase" Obama has more to do with the color of his skin. It just bothers the hell out of them. No way could one of those people could be smarter and more eloquent than they are. No way was a colored man President.

It always kills me that the Evangelical right hated Obama, the dedicated family man who spoke kindly of almost anyone. And they love Trump, the philandering cheating whore chasing bully who treats anyone he disagrees with like ****. Obama, married a single time and Trump who was married 3 times and cheated on all of his wives including his present wife days after she gave birth to his son.

But Obama is the one they want to cancel.
And don't forget that time he wore a tan suit.
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Old 22nd June 2020, 06:27 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by fishbob View Post
And don't forget that time he wore a tan suit.
I get that. That's unforgivable.
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Old 22nd June 2020, 06:41 PM   #32
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Okay let's introduce some of those... things... that are true... what are they called... yeah facts.

Okay. Yes under Obama drone strikes did increase dramatically.*

Under George W. Bush, 57 Drone Strikes were carried out. 563 were carried out under Obama.

But Obama was also President during period advances in unmanned aircraft and global communications advancement.

And as noted... so? We're talking unmanned aircraft, not Skynet. A human being is still flying the aircraft and dropping the bombs, they just aren't in the aircraft when they do it.

*Obvious caveat, drone strikes are often classified so all numbers are just based on available information. Sprinkle what ever grains of
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Old 22nd June 2020, 07:00 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by fishbob View Post
And don't forget that time he wore a tan suit.
Then there was Golfgate when the GOP went ballistic over the amount of times Obama played golf.
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Old 23rd June 2020, 01:40 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by fishbob View Post
And don't forget that time he wore a tan suit.
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I get that. That's unforgivable.
....and he put his feet on the desk....

....and put Dijon mustard on his hamberder

The man was a monster, as well as a thin-skinned narcissist
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Old 23rd June 2020, 04:31 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Allen773 View Post
I, for one, find America’s 44th President’s use of drone warfare deeply problematic and so I think he should be erased from American history.
If you can find a way of actually erasing Obama from American history, then please tell us how such a thing is done.

Otherwise, you will just have to go on living with Obama being a major fixture in American history.

Also, why is drone warfare so problematic for you?

After all, if these people were killed using more established technology such as guns, missiles, ships, tanks, aircraft, etc., then these people would still be just as dead as they are now.
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Old 23rd June 2020, 05:11 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
If you can find a way of actually erasing Obama from American history, then please tell us how such a thing is done.
I know. I mean we haven't put any statues of him up yet and apparently our entire historical archiving system is statue based.
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Old 23rd June 2020, 05:30 AM   #37
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not sure what the point is here. People opposed to our endless military campaigns abroad are not fans of the Obama foreign policy.

I would contend that many of our more recent presidents are war criminals that deserve a violent death at the Hague. The bipartisan endorsement of endless war is a national disgrace.
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Old 23rd June 2020, 05:48 AM   #38
JoeMorgue
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
not sure what the point is here.
Standard tribalistic nihilistic whataboutism.

"Your side has standards but can't leave up to them 100%, my side has no standards, therefore through insane troll logic I'm better than you."
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Old 23rd June 2020, 08:37 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
And as noted... so? We're talking unmanned aircraft, not Skynet. A human being is still flying the aircraft and dropping the bombs, they just aren't in the aircraft when they do it.
I'm pretty sure Obama would have got stick either way just because that was what\is happening (see Mustardgate etc);

"OMG!! He's using drone strikes!!"

Or

"OMG! He's putting our upstanding pilots in danger"

With a small side of luddite testosterone "They're not true warriors"

I mean the normal crowd of rich white men & their stockholders still got their money, so keeping the status quo there.
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Old 23rd June 2020, 10:37 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by fishbob View Post
And don't forget that time he wore a tan suit.

The 10 Worst Scandals in Presidential History
Which One of These Is Obamagate?

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