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Tags Ghislaine Maxwell , Jeffrey Epstein , sex trafficking

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Old 7th April 2021, 04:41 AM   #441
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Sigh. That is not what she's been accused, and indicted, for. Not even remotely. So again you're deliberately introducing irrelevancies.
Hey, I've seen The Untouchables and therefore I know you can switch juries and pleas in the middle of a trial unilaterally... so if The Wolf of Wall Street says you can be convicted for a crime you weren't indicted for, I believe it!
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Old 7th April 2021, 04:43 AM   #442
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Prostitution is the oldest profession in the world
No it's not; try flint-knapping.
And you really display an abject ignorance of the history of sex work. I suggest you start with 'sacred prostitution' and work from there.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
OTOH there are sex workers who enjoy what they do and do it quite voluntarily.
Which is absolutely irrelevant to the indictment under discussion, which involves the coercion of minors.
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Old 7th April 2021, 05:06 AM   #443
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Which is absolutely irrelevant to the indictment under discussion, which involves the coercion of minors.
Ah, but you see, if some people in sex work enjoy their work, that means you can't know whether people forced into sex work enjoy it.

But Vixen's totally not defending Maxwell.
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Old 7th April 2021, 05:14 AM   #444
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
If you look at the statistics, in 2018 only eleven people got 'life' and in 2019, this figure was 20. As there were apx. 65 homicides in 2019, this tells you they did not all get 'life' but a fixed term sentence, in accordance with what I stated earlier.

Quote:
2 [19 April 1991/697] (1) A sentence of imprisonment shall be passed either for a fixed period or for life.
A sentence of imprisonment for a fixed period shall be at least fourteen days and at most twelve
3
years or, when sentencing to a joint punishment in accordance with ch. 7, at most fifteen years.
Finnish Penal Code



All you've quoted there are general points regarding any sentence. In the same document you'll find this (as timhau stated):

Quote:
Chapter 21: Homicide and Injurious Offences
[21 April 1995/578]
s
1Manslaughter [21 April 1995/578]
(1) A person who kills another shall be sentenced for manslaughter to imprisonment for at least eight years.
(2) An attempt shall be punished.

2Murder [21 April 1995/578]
(1) If the manslaughter is
1)premeditated;
2)committed in a particularly brutal or cruel manner;
3)committed by causing serious danger to the public; or
4)committed by killing an official on duty upholding the peace or public security, or because of an official
action;
and the offence is aggravated also when assessed as a whole, the offender shall be sentenced for murder to life
imprisonment.
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Last edited by zooterkin; 7th April 2021 at 05:17 AM.
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Old 7th April 2021, 05:23 AM   #445
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Hey, I've seen The Untouchables and therefore I know you can switch juries and pleas in the middle of a trial unilaterally... so if The Wolf of Wall Street says you can be convicted for a crime you weren't indicted for, I believe it!
You don't get sarcasm do you?
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Old 7th April 2021, 05:30 AM   #446
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
You don't get sarcasm do you?
Were you sarcastic about being an accountant with relevant experience in the matters at hand?
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Old 7th April 2021, 05:30 AM   #447
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post



All you've quoted there are general points regarding any sentence. In the same document you'll find this (as timhau stated):
Did you not see the bit where it said in 2018 ELEVEN people got 'life' (=max 15 years) and the latest fiegures for 2019 shows only TWENTY got the same.

In other words, it is like I said.

I know killers get lenient sentences just from reading the Finnish regional newspapers. There was one guy recently who arranged to meet up with his ex-girlfriend, who was a successful executive, much loved by her family. He murdered her and claimed not to know her whereabouts to her distraught parents. In the interim, he had emptied her bank account and had taken out numerous loans in her name. He refused to reveal what happened to her body. Her body has never been found. His sentence: 8 years 8 months.

If that doesn't qualify for 'life' one has to wonder what does. Yet people are baying for 35 years for Maxwell, which apparently could go up to 80 years with the new charges.

Remember, you cannot make her a proxy for Epstein's crimes.
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Old 7th April 2021, 05:31 AM   #448
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I know killers get lenient sentences just from reading the Finnish regional newspapers.
I know they get lenient sentences from watching Law Abiding Citizen.
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Old 7th April 2021, 05:36 AM   #449
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Were you sarcastic about being an accountant with relevant experience in the matters at hand?
I was being sarcastic about Wolf of Wall Street so it was quite amusing to see you rise to the bait as though you had a GOTCHA! moment.

Glad to have given you your short-lived Gotcha! Only it was me that got you, in that you lacked the ability to spot that the reference was tongue-in-cheek and off you went on some mad victory dance as though you had scored a goal.

And you are still chuntering about it now. LOL.
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Old 7th April 2021, 05:44 AM   #450
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I was being sarcastic about Wolf of Wall Street
Oh, I know. Or at least I know you're now claiming that. But since it was said in the same breath as the rest of your list, I don't see why I shouldn't lump all of that together. It was a doozy and still is.

(By the way, that's not what sarcasm is. Why don't you ever get anything right?)

Quote:
so it was quite amusing to see you rise to the bait as though you had a GOTCHA! moment.
What's more amusing is that as you are more and more demonstrated to actually know nothing of what you're talking about, your earlier claim of expertise becomes progressively more a 'joke'.

Quote:
And you are still chuntering about it now. LOL.
I told you, I'm having fun right now. Run, rabbit run!
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Old 7th April 2021, 05:50 AM   #451
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Erratum : I misread the kahden as kahdeksän (eight instead of two, I saw it as eight, which made me reel backwards to think it was two when I saw it).

Quote:
Milla Aronen's death: Ex-boyfriend escaped murder - less than three years in prison

The District Court of Southwest Finland sentenced Jyri Kristian Nieminen to a total of two years and eight months in prison. The man, who was born in 1995, was convicted of aggravated assault, guilty of death, attempted aggravated fraud, violation of a grave peace, and payment instrument fraud.

Nieminen was also sentenced to pay Milla Aronen's relatives a total of approximately EUR 42,400 in compensation for mental suffering, as well as funeral and legal expenses. In addition, he will have to reimburse the state for litigation costs of more than 8,300 euros, and for two different credit companies about 2,200 euros.

The prosecutor demanded that Nieminen be punished for murder in the district court. The man himself denied the murder charge in court, but said he caused Aronen's death with a blow to the head.

According to Nieminen's own account, he and Arose had an argument at night and had hit Aro once in the head. According to the man, Aronen died.

Nieminen said that he wrapped the body in garbage bags and threw it in a large locked trash can in Salo. Aronen's body is still missing.

ILTA-LEHTI [google translate]

Can Timhau tell me with a straight face murderers get life in Finland?
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Old 7th April 2021, 06:37 AM   #452
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Nope. That is another lie.



See that highlighted bit there? I'm making a clear distinction between being convicted and being actually guilty i.e. having done the deed you're accused of.

But go ahead, tell me you're an expert in the English language because you've watched The King's Speech.
Especially given the whole side discussion about the implications of plea-bargaining.

If you're not prosecuted for a crime because you cooperate to convict someone worse, you are, presumably, in the eyes of the law, innocent as you've never been tried.
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Old 7th April 2021, 06:44 AM   #453
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Jeebus, another pathetic attempt to minimise the seriousness of the alleged offenses.
Far from it. I am trying to bring back as sense of balance and perspective from the hysterical exaggerations of the media and some posters.
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Old 7th April 2021, 06:49 AM   #454
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
No it's not; try flint-knapping.
And you really display an abject ignorance of the history of sex work. I suggest you start with 'sacred prostitution' and work from there.


Which is absolutely irrelevant to the indictment under discussion, which involves the coercion of minors.
Nobody has answered the question yet: what is the difference between a sex worker aged 17 and one aged 18?

In the USA one is a victim of 'Child Sex Trafficking' although as soon as she turns eighteen suddenly she is not.

In the UK, neither one of these is a minor but a consenting adult.

If a 17-year-old American is flown in from the USA to have sex in England, does English law come into force, or can the USA extradite the person the women claims she had sex with in Maxwell's home in Belgravia?
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Old 7th April 2021, 06:58 AM   #455
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Nobody has answered the question yet: what is the difference between a sex worker aged 17 and one aged 18?
One's legal and the other is not.

Quote:
In the USA one is a victim of 'Child Sex Trafficking' although as soon as she turns eighteen suddenly she is not.
That's true pretty much everywhere. That's like saying that doing 100 in a 100 zone is fine, but 101 is not. What gives? How do you define speeding?

How do you know I don't have a valid reason for going faster than the speed limit? How do you know Keanu Reeves isn't in the car with me and if we slow down below 100 we blow up, and we're giving ourselves a margin?
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Old 7th April 2021, 07:04 AM   #456
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Nobody has answered the question yet: what is the difference between a sex worker aged 17 and one aged 18?
One is an adult. One is not.
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Old 7th April 2021, 08:07 AM   #457
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Can you clarify why it is all right to be a sex worker aged eighteen but not aged 17? (In the USA, that is, as in the UK that would be fine, as long as the sex worker pays her taxes.)
It's not okay in the UK, if the worker has been coerced in any way.

I don't think this is a question of age-of-maturity laws and where different jurisdictions try to make the trade-offs, so I'm not going to bother debating it with you here. If you're not getting the basics of the debate, talking about this won't help.
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Old 7th April 2021, 08:08 AM   #458
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Prostitution is the oldest profession in the world
No, fishing is the oldest profession.
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Old 7th April 2021, 08:13 AM   #459
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
How do US plea bargains work if the criminal is subsequently arrested and charged? I guess that can't be taken into account.
My understanding is that most plea bargains include a stipulation from the prosecutor that further shenanigans before the bargain is concluded will invalidate the deal.

You make a deal with the prosecutor to rat out your accomplices, in exchange for being charged with a lesser crime, and pleading guilty to that charge in court.

If you then go out and commit more crimes while waiting for your court date, the prosecutor could very well bin the deal and throw the book at you.

After your court date, having pled guilty to the lesser charge and received your sentence, the prosecutor has no more power over you for those crimes. New crimes are the province of a new prosecutor, and your parole board where applicable.
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Old 7th April 2021, 08:51 AM   #460
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Erratum : I misread the kahden as kahdeksän (eight instead of two, I saw it as eight, which made me reel backwards to think it was two when I saw it).

ILTA-LEHTI [google translate]

Can Timhau tell me with a straight face murderers get life in Finland?
He wasn't found guilty of murder.
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Old 7th April 2021, 09:16 AM   #461
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Can you clarify why it is all right to be a sex worker aged eighteen but not aged 17? (In the USA, that is, as in the UK that would be fine, as long as the sex worker pays her taxes.)
Here comes the sorites argument. If 17, why not 16 etc.? If the age specification is wrong, there's a big difference between arguing that the age is wrong than that the idea is.
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Old 7th April 2021, 09:56 AM   #462
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Ideally the age of maturity should be substantially higher than the typical age at which children "mature". None of these things need to be rushed, and there's probably a lot of children who would benefit from having another year or so to get there.

Different societies estimate this a bit differently, but they're all working towards the same basic principle. Vixen's argument dismisses the principle. It's also irrelevant to the topics actually being discussed, since the rest of us accept the principle in principle, so to speak.

I'm not going to argue with Vixen about what the optimal age of consent should be. And I'm definitely not going to waste any time advocating for the principle itself in law.
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Old 7th April 2021, 11:19 AM   #463
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Sex Ponzi as an analogy.

Individuals that engage in a Sex Ponzi analogy focus all of their energy into attracting new Johns/clients to make investments in your Sex Ponzi.
There is exactly one person in the universe engaged in a "Sex Ponzi analogy" -- does that individual really want to admit here on a public forum that they are focusing their energy into attracting Johns etc.?

Originally Posted by Filippo Lippi View Post
There's a noir-ish Scandi-drama just begging to be written right there. As I understand it, all we need now is some knitwear
Frustrated pulp-fiction writer-cum-researcher in a scratchy fair isle sweater uses knowledge from their Accounting 102 class to take down a Sex Ponzi scheme. Definitely needs more murder, but it's a start.
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Old 7th April 2021, 11:31 AM   #464
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Erratum : I misread the kahden as kahdeksän (eight instead of two, I saw it as eight, which made me reel backwards to think it was two when I saw it).

ILTA-LEHTI [google translate]

Can Timhau tell me with a straight face murderers get life in Finland?

He wasn't convicted of murder though.

The words "Ex-boyfriend escaped murder" in the title ought perhaps to have served as a clue....


(Anyhow, this is all now getting pretty off-piste as regards the actual topic of this thread)
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Old 7th April 2021, 01:20 PM   #465
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Nobody has answered the question yet: what is the difference between a sex worker aged 17 and one aged 18?

In the USA one is a victim of 'Child Sex Trafficking' although as soon as she turns eighteen suddenly she is not.
A line has to be drawn somewhere.

Where would you draw it? 16? 14? 13? 12? 10 perhaps?
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Old 7th April 2021, 01:42 PM   #466
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Great news! G. gets her covid vaccine.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime...il/ar-BB1fmVTa
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Old 7th April 2021, 01:45 PM   #467
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Great news! G. gets her covid vaccine.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime...il/ar-BB1fmVTa
Age has its privileges.
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Old 7th April 2021, 01:48 PM   #468
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Age has its privileges.
She's only 59. Her privilege is that she's a federal prisoner.
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Old 7th April 2021, 02:03 PM   #469
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
A line has to be drawn somewhere.

Where would you draw it? 16? 14? 13? 12? 10 perhaps?
Doesn't matter exactly where we draw the line. The specific age of consent is a red herring. Vixen is minimizing the risk of harm in principle. Wherever you draw the line, she's still going to insist that what Maxwell is accused of probably isn't really so bad.

The fact that some countries put the age of consent lower than the ages of some of Maxwell's victims isn't supporting an argument that the age of consent should be lower. Vixen isn't arguing that. It's supporting her argument that the risk of harm isn't as great as we make it out to be, and maybe Maxwell doesn't deserve such a harsh sentence.
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Old 7th April 2021, 02:05 PM   #470
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Great news! G. gets her covid vaccine.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime...il/ar-BB1fmVTa
Can we not? Vaccinating federal prisoners is the right thing to do. Regardless of how heinous the crimes they've been accused of.
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Old 7th April 2021, 02:49 PM   #471
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
A line has to be drawn somewhere.

Where would you draw it? 16? 14? 13? 12? 10 perhaps?
Speaking of drawing lines. What about someone born in California at 11PM who moved to New York and had sex 1 hour after her 18th birthday at 1AM. Wouldn't she/he be 1 hour short of 18 years old?

But it's hard to write a law without lines.
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Old 7th April 2021, 02:59 PM   #472
Bob001
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Can we not? Vaccinating federal prisoners is the right thing to do. Regardless of how heinous the crimes they've been accused of.
In principle, I agree. But apparently she has gotten her shot before most other prisoners. I suspect that in her current situation, she is probably less at risk than prisoners who live in dormitories and mingle in genpop.
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Old 7th April 2021, 03:16 PM   #473
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
In principle, I agree. But apparently she has gotten her shot before most other prisoners. I suspect that in her current situation, she is probably less at risk than prisoners who live in dormitories and mingle in genpop.

I suspect - especially after what happened with Epstein - that the authorities are rather keen to minimise the chances of Maxwell contracting Covid-19 (and possibly even dying) before she's stood trial......
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Old 7th April 2021, 04:42 PM   #474
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
She's only 59. Her privilege is that she's a federal prisoner.
I probably should have put a smiley on that one.
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Old 7th April 2021, 05:21 PM   #475
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
In principle, I agree. But apparently she has gotten her shot before most other prisoners. I suspect that in her current situation, she is probably less at risk than prisoners who live in dormitories and mingle in genpop.
IDEFC. Shots in arms is a good thing. And "apparently" doesn't mean much to me in this context.
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Old 7th April 2021, 05:56 PM   #476
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
She's only 59. Her privilege is that she's a federal prisoner.
But what’s the difference between 59 and 60 anyway?
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Old 7th April 2021, 06:02 PM   #477
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Originally Posted by autumn1971 View Post
But what’s the difference between 59 and 60 anyway?
Ooh. Good point. I apologize for trying to downplay the enormity of Maxwell's injection.
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Old 8th April 2021, 03:55 AM   #478
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
He wasn't found guilty of murder.
Google translate didn't translate it very well. He was found guilt of causing her death.

Quote:
Vuonna 1995 syntynyt mies tuomittiin törkeästä pahoinpitelystä, kuolemantuottamuksesta, törkeän petoksen yrityksestä, hautarauhan rikkomisesta ja maksuvälinepetoksesta.
OK so he was found guilty was 'involuntary manslaughter' a huge body building guy weighing 225lbs, who admitted killing her by hitting her on the head and then deprived her and her family of a Christian burial. This epitomises the sentencing in Finland as they will very rarely impose life sentence, as I said. Just yesterday was a report of a man who virtually shook his baby daughter almost to death and now she is seriously brain damaged. He got away with it, apart from having to pay her €11K in compensation, after the prosecutor took it to appeal, pursuant to the original sentence being something trivial and a €1,000 compensation award, on the grounds 'the brain damage happened in stages' i.e., not just one event of shaking, which was all he admitted to. This just goes to underline my point that life (=15 years less legal entitlement to parole) is vanishingly rarely imposed.

So it remains disproportionate that Maxwell is facing anything from 35 years to 80 years maximum.
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Old 8th April 2021, 04:03 AM   #479
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
There is exactly one person in the universe engaged in a "Sex Ponzi analogy" -- does that individual really want to admit here on a public forum that they are focusing their energy into attracting Johns etc.?


Frustrated pulp-fiction writer-cum-researcher in a scratchy fair isle sweater uses knowledge from their Accounting 102 class to take down a Sex Ponzi scheme. Definitely needs more murder, but it's a start.
Sadly, already been done. This clip shows why Wolf of Wall Street was incredibly popular with us City accountants, as I was, then. I got it right with Sex Ponzi.

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Old 8th April 2021, 04:10 AM   #480
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
So it remains disproportionate that Maxwell is facing anything from 35 years to 80 years maximum.
I still don't know why you think this. "Hey, this guy was found guilty of a different crime, which I think wasn't the right decision" doesn't sound like it's related to any reasoning that explains your claim that it's disproportionate.
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