The Derek Chauvin/George Floyd Murder Trial

[turingtest]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank

If you wanted objectivity and race-blindness, you joined the wrong species.

You're looking for androids or something.

I guarantee that there will be, at least roughly, a racial divide in that jury deliberation room, just as there was on the Zimmerman jury and OJ jury.

Well, I guess the difference between us is that I can recognize those faults in our species, but see them as problems to be intelligently overcome, while you seem to see those animal instincts as features that we just have to dumbly give in to, if not to celebrate and perpetuate.

So, tell me- who's the primitive here?

[Captain_Swoop]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

But the clerk recognized the bill was fake.

not at first.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

not at first.

And that matters, why?

[Kestrel]

Originally Posted by pgwenthold

Apparently, it felt real enough that the clerk didn't notice when she first got it.

Or the clerk had zero training in how to recognize real US currency.

[JoeMorgue]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

And that matters, why?

The bill being counterfeit matters why?

[Captain_Swoop]

Originally Posted by Kestrel

Or the clerk had zero training in how to recognize real US currency.

so didn't notice it was fake.

[Captain_Swoop]

Ann Coulter tweeted

@AnnCoulter
Prosecution witness Hansen as she appeared in court (full dress uniform) vs. The day she screamed at officers detaining George Floyd (in sweats and a do-rag)


(Pictures in link)
https://twitter.com/AnnCoulter/statu...09028462100486

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by Kestrel

Or the clerk had zero training in how to recognize real US currency.

Come on, if you handle bills all day you know when they don't feel right.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

The bill being counterfeit matters why?

Your answer is a non sequitur to the Captain's post I was replying to.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Ann Coulter tweeted

@AnnCoulter
Prosecution witness Hansen as she appeared in court (full dress uniform) vs. The day she screamed at officers detaining George Floyd (in sweats and a do-rag)


(Pictures in link)
https://twitter.com/AnnCoulter/statu...09028462100486

The comments say it all, especially the first one, paraphrased.

Quote:

And your point? ******* moron

[pgwenthold]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

But the clerk recognized the bill was fake.

Not initially, or why would have she accepted it?

[pgwenthold]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Come on, if you handle bills all day you know when they don't feel right.

Then why did she accept it?

[Skeptic Ginger]

She was a he I thought but the problem was second thoughts I believe, maybe not wanting to confront a person directly. It's kind of hard for some people to call someone else a liar to their face.

[TheGoldcountry]

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Ann Coulter tweeted

@AnnCoulter
Prosecution witness Hansen as she appeared in court (full dress uniform) vs. The day she screamed at officers detaining George Floyd (in sweats and a do-rag)


(Pictures in link)
https://twitter.com/AnnCoulter/statu...09028462100486

Jesus, that page is a ******* mess. If you ever feel like subjecting your brain to all-out assault on logic and reality, go there.

[smartcooky]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Come on, if you handle bills all day you know when they don't feel right.

Actually, I don't think that is true of American banknotes. Once they get really old and worn (as in ready to be pulled from circulation) they can fee very much like "old paper", flaccid with no crispness. How do I know this? Because I worked for six months as a bartender in the "O Club" at the US Navy USARP Base in Christchurch where VXE6 was stationed. American money all looks the same across the denominations; all the same size and colour from $1 to $100 bills, and in the dim light of the bar area, it was damned hard to see them clearly. Someone could have passed a shade bill and I probably wouldn't have noticed.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by smartcooky

Actually, I don't think that is true of American banknotes. ....

The paper is the one thing counterfeiters have the hardest time copying. It's not paper it's a kind of cloth.

The ordinary paper that consumers use throughout their everyday life such as newspapers, books, cereal boxes, etc., is primarily made of wood pulp; however, United States currency paper is composed of 75 percent cotton and 25 percent linen. This is what gives United States currency its distinct look and feel

[erlando]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

The serial numbers are the same.

For that to be a factor you'd have to be in possession of both to notice.

Also what does it matter if the bill is fake or not?

[Bob001]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

The paper is the one thing counterfeiters have the hardest time copying. It's not paper it's a kind of cloth.
.....

Some counterfeiters used to bleach $1 bills and print $20s or $100s on the real currency paper. Apparently the newer security features like embedded threads and watermarks have made that technique obsolete.

[Bob001]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Come on, if you handle bills all day you know when they don't feel right.

Well, there's an argument to be made that a teenage clerk's opinion shouldn't be enough to arrest somebody. He's not a currency examiner, and neither are the cops. In fact, how could the cops really be sure the clerk didn't switch bills (maybe not likely, but enough to raise doubts), or he was mistaken about who gave him the bill? If the clerk and the store accepted it, maybe they should eat it.

There's also an argument that the store should provide clerks with currency pens if counterfeits are a problem.
https://www.officedepot.com/a/browse...ns/N=5+573547/

[Skeptic Ginger]

None of my comments should be taken to excuse what happened when the cops got there. I was following the discussion about the clerk suspecting the bill Floyd used was fake.

To claim: "that a teenage clerk's opinion shouldn't be enough to arrest somebody" is also not relevant. He didn't call the cops on his own, he asked the manager to intervene.

The manager had every right to call the cops. Even if the kid was the only one there, calling the cops was reasonable. One would assume the police would handle it properly. That is where the sole blame belongs here.

[Craig4]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank

I believe they entered into a mindset of "this individual definitely needs to be detained and possibly arrested" after coming on scene, finding him behaving erratically and not keeping his hands visible, acting like he was strung out on drugs, and after they spoke with the other individuals who'd been in the car with him.

If they'd shown up and found a sober, calm man who said "officer, I'm terribly sorry, I had no idea it was a fake $20. I will of course immediately remedy the situation with the merchant inside." - then I'm thinking he wouldn't have been arrested.

When they were called, they were told he'd already refused to remedy the situation and may have been told by the young man behind the counter that he seemed high as well, not sure on that.

Cops cannot let someone who appears to be impaired drive off, it's a danger to the public.

As per usual, you have no idea what you are talking about. The defendant told his victim and he was being arrested for forgery (which isn't even the right crime). If they were concerned about his being on drugs, why didn't they take him for D&D or just do a civil hold for detox?

[Craig4]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank

The defense attorney played a clip today during which, he asserts, Floyd says "I ate too many drugs"

I can't say with 100% certainty that it is what Floyd says during that segment, but it sounds like a reasonable interpretation of what I heard there.

Perhaps you could show us when the officers attempted to determine what drugs he did and when they produced their NARCAN nasal spray to treat him for his overdose.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by Craig4

As per usual, you have no idea what you are talking about. The defendant told his victim and he was being arrested for forgery (which isn't even the right crime). If they were concerned about his being on drugs, why didn't they take him for D&D or just do a civil hold for detox?

Just as a side note, cops don't always know what they are going to charge someone for, they don't have the law memorized in that kind of detail. Had they taken Floyd in a filed a counterfeiting charge, eventually the actual charges that go in front of a judge are determined by the DA.

I learned this watching the cops I was working for. They do end up filing some charges even if wrong. Once I saw them consulting with the sergeant in command if they could file a weapons charge against a suspect they had in custody. The consensus was they could not, no one could find a specific law to charge the guy with and they let him go.

It's likely they would have charged Floyd with possessing and using counterfeit money, not making the $20 bills.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

**** that noise. In Afghanistan I couldn't pull my gun on an actual member of the Taliban screaming "I'm going to kill you, Yes you!" until he drew his weapon to the ready position, and had filed "Intent to Attack" forms in triplicate with the local Taliban Office 3 weeks in advance and had given me a copy of his new book "How I Intend to Attack and Kill You" to read beforehand.

Expecting a police force to interact with the citizenry they are ostensibly there to protect with an ROE at least as restrictive as what I had to follow in open combat with a declared enemy isn't crazy.

You're wrong here. Cops as a matter of course approach a vehicle with guns drawn. Approaching a car is often the time cops get shot. I don't think they were wrong there, they didn't know what to expect.

Maybe when they pull Mary Sue over for speeding they don't. But I don't see that particular action to be problematic.

[Darat]

Originally Posted by plague311

As mentioned above me, the cashier did accept the bill and Floyd did leave with a pack of cigarettes and, I believe, a banana. He then refused to come back into the store when confronted about it. Initially the cashier was just going to eat the $20 and pay for it himself.



Yup, my guess is that the prosecution will acknowledge that all of this is accurate, but that the 3 ng/ml is for a first time user. They put his girlfriend on the stand, I believe, to show that Floyd had a history of drug use. His body had a tolerance and what would kill a first time user wasn't applicable to Floyd.

That’s really nothing but the “eggshell skull” defence and from what I understand (what I was told early in the thread) it is the same in the USA as it is in the UK, i.e. the criminal must "take their victims as they find them". Whether he was more vulnerable to being killed because of his drug use or not is a red herring.

[Darat]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank

The defense attorney got the witness to agree with the interpretation of "I ate too many drugs."

I find it highly problematic for anyone to suggest he actually said "I ain't do any drugs" for the following reasons:

1.) It is a stereotypical "black vernacular" as white racist KKK people might imagine it. It implies that strong African American men such as George Floyd are not capable of speaking correctly. This is incredibly insulting.

2.) It would paint George Floyd as a liar, thus impugning his character. We know he had a substantial amount of drugs in his system, and drugs with his saliva on them were found in the vehicle.

You think he was lying about being murdered?

Because that is the only lie that would have any bearing on the trial.

[Darat]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank

…snip…

Am I supposed to shut down the pattern recognition my brain is literally evolved over billions of years to do, as one of its primary functions?
…snip…

If you want accuracy and actual facts - yes you do because that ability is notoriously bad at both determining accuracy and the facts, that’s why it took us so long to develop a system that tries to reduce its influence when we try to make accurate theories and models about the world or as we call it today - science.

[Darat]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

You're wrong here. Cops as a matter of course approach a vehicle with guns drawn. Approaching a car is often the time cops get shot. I don't think they were wrong there, they didn't know what to expect.

Maybe when they pull Mary Sue over for speeding they don't. But I don't see that particular action to be problematic.

Even in the USA I don’t think that is true.

[Darat]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Just as a side note, cops don't always know what they are going to charge someone for, they don't have the law memorized in that kind of detail. …snip…

Charging and arresting someone are different things. Certainly in my country the police have to state why they are arresting you.

[chrispy]

Originally Posted by Darat

Even in the USA I don’t think that is true.

You are correct. It is 100% not true.

[JoeMorgue]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

You're wrong here. Cops as a matter of course approach a vehicle with guns drawn. Approaching a car is often the time cops get shot. I don't think they were wrong there, they didn't know what to expect.

Maybe when they pull Mary Sue over for speeding they don't. But I don't see that particular action to be problematic.

Again, louder this time, **** all that noise.

The pizza guy doesn't get to come to my house with my Pepperoni and Green Peppers Thin Crust with a gun at the ready position and he's statistically far more likely to die then Chauvin was. When I go into my local convenience store for a Dr. Pepper me and the clerk don't hold guns on each other and slowly back away when the transaction is over and again, that's a much more statistically dangerous situation then "beat cop."

Being a cop isn't that dangerous. It doesn't even crack the top 10 of most dangerous occupations. Cops use the whole "My life is on the line everyday" mythology to go into every interaction assuming the citizenry they are there are to protect are inherently violent, which makes them "fear for their lives".... so they murder them.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by Darat

Even in the USA I don’t think that is true.

I didn't mean every single time. But certainly in these circumstances.

FBI Releases 2019 Statistics on Law Enforcement Officers Killed in the Line of Duty

Quote:

Circumstances. Of the 48 officers feloniously killed:

6 were conducting traffic violation stops

These were cops who got shot. There are more who were hit by other vehicles.

While that may not seem like a lot, it is the tip of the iceberg given the cops aren't killed every time they approach a vehicle. And of all the police who died by gunfire, it was the most common.

POLICE TACTICS & TECHNIQUES - Vehicle Control - High risk vehicle stops Power Point presentation

Quote:

The officers should quickly take position using their vehicle as cover and drawing their weapons in the ready position. ...

By using their vehicle for cover they mean cover from oncoming traffic.

Quote:

The protection and the control elements should approach the suspect vehicle from the rear with their weapons in the high ready position, watching the suspect vehicle ...

When opening the trunk/boot the officers should stand to the side of the vehicle and cover it with their weapons in the ready position in case there are any more suspects hiding inside. Officers should never stand directly in front of the trunk/boot when opening it....

Slides 30 to 32 illustrate the case of the control of a vehicle with potentially dangerous occupants on board.
The police officers are progressing with their weapons, C and D moving from both sides of the vehicle.

I fail to see how having the gun drawn has any racist or other meaning.

[Kestrel]

Originally Posted by smartcooky

Actually, I don't think that is true of American banknotes. Once they get really old and worn (as in ready to be pulled from circulation) they can fee very much like "old paper", flaccid with no crispness. How do I know this? Because I worked for six months as a bartender in the "O Club" at the US Navy USARP Base in Christchurch where VXE6 was stationed. American money all looks the same across the denominations; all the same size and colour from $1 to $100 bills, and in the dim light of the bar area, it was damned hard to see them clearly. Someone could have passed a shade bill and I probably wouldn't have noticed.

Our local secret service office said that most of the counterfeit bills they see are low quality. They get passed in dark bars on busy nights. The SS recommendation is to install a small black light next to the cash register. The security strip in the bills is fluorescent and a different color for each denomination.

[ponderingturtle]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

The paper is the one thing counterfeiters have the hardest time copying. It's not paper it's a kind of cloth.

The ordinary paper that consumers use throughout their everyday life such as newspapers, books, cereal boxes, etc., is primarily made of wood pulp; however, United States currency paper is composed of 75 percent cotton and 25 percent linen. This is what gives United States currency its distinct look and feel

No that does not make it cloth, it is rag paper, more expensive than the wood fiber variety but also more traditional.

https://www.wbmason.com/ProductDetai...hoCBpIQAvD_BwE

A source for rag paper for you to print important documents on.

[ponderingturtle]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

You're wrong here. Cops as a matter of course approach a vehicle with guns drawn. Approaching a car is often the time cops get shot. I don't think they were wrong there, they didn't know what to expect.

Maybe when they pull Mary Sue over for speeding they don't. But I don't see that particular action to be problematic.

Yea they are way more dangerous than the military, why it is almost as dangerous as trash collecting!

And makes it handy to shoot black people with cell phones when one is called about a car with its motor running.

[ponderingturtle]

Originally Posted by Darat

Even in the USA I don’t think that is true.

Depends on the race of the driver of course.

[plague311]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

I didn't mean every single time. But certainly in these circumstances.

In what circumstances? A man was sitting in his car, completely unarmed, after having committed the most minor criminal offense (which might not even be a criminal offense had he not known it was counterfeit), and at no point in time had he become violent anywhere. Defiant? Sure, but never violent. He never pushed anyone, I didn't even hear him raise his voice until a cop with a gun in his face walked up to the car.

Also, you're quoting from high risk traffic stops. This wasn't a high risk traffic stop. With the benefit if hindsight we even get to see that the only person that got hurt was the only one without a gun. This wasn't on a highway, or an interstate and they chose to be in the street. They could have moved Floyd any time, in fact, it would have saved his life.

[plague311]

Sounds like ME's are starting today.

[plague311]

Dr. Martin Tobin will be the first to take the stand. He's out of Chicago and I believe he's an expert pulmonology.

[plague311]

The Dr. just clarified that whether the knee was on the neck or pushed into the back the effects on breathing are "extremely similar."