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Old 6th April 2021, 02:43 PM   #81
dudalb
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
More utter bollocks from our resident woo woo peddler
Generally agree, but we have a couple of other resident woo peddlers.
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Old 6th April 2021, 02:45 PM   #82
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The big pharmeutical companies wish they were one third as powerful as the conspiracy kooks and woo peddlers believe they are.
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Old 6th April 2021, 03:27 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
I have a new rule of thumb: The more subjects that Big Pharma needed to produce a "significant" result, the weaker the actual benefit.The less likely to benefit ME. But I am the one who gets the side effects.

P.S: "significant" does not mean "important" or "valuable", it means "likely to be repeated in a similar study". Statisticians jargon.
Of course! That's how statistics works. The smaller the effect, the larger the N required to produce, on a regular basis, a "p" value < .05.

Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Regarding the highlighted, I am pretty sure the opposite is true.

When we talk about things like p-hacking, it is more common that "significant" results occur when there are fewer subjects because anomalies don't get smoothed out by larger numbers.

Usually, you have a preliminary study using few subjects and if the results seem to show a significant finding you have to repeat with a larger sample to prove that the observed effect wasn't a fluke. If the larger sample shows a significant finding, then you can become more confident that the finding is real.

On the other hand, bad science would be, "I tried grandma's snakeoil elixir and it cured me of all that ails me. So that's me and grandma! The effects were shown to work in two different people! That's real significant!"

Basically, the larger the effect, the smaller the "N" number needed to achieve a p value under .05.

One caveat. A "p" value is more than .05 means the results are not significant in a statistical sense as commonly used in medicine. This shows the results can't be used to presume effectiveness. Nothing more.
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Old 7th April 2021, 10:24 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
Profits Before People
Profits are not really the motive you think they are. For-prophet organizations behave in the exact same variety of ways as for profit organizations. The problem of bad behavior is a human problem and cannot be dismissed quite so quickly.
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Old 7th April 2021, 01:00 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Pooneil View Post
Profits are not really the motive you think they are. For-prophet organizations behave in the exact same variety of ways as for profit organizations. The problem of bad behavior is a human problem and cannot be dismissed quite so quickly.
They sure do! Personal profit is precisely why most of them exist in the first place.
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Old 7th April 2021, 02:19 PM   #86
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I'm definitely non-prophet.
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Old 7th April 2021, 02:35 PM   #87
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Just reading on another group from a fellow who lost his mom due to cancer and the chemo drugs, and he believes she could have lived longer without the damaging drugs....and I've heard for decades from my own mom and her generation, "if the cancer doesn't get you, the drugs will/can"....

Hi all, greetings from your woo woo queen.
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Old 7th April 2021, 02:58 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
Just reading on another group from a fellow who lost his mom due to cancer and the chemo drugs, and he believes she could have lived longer without the damaging drugs....and I've heard for decades from my own mom and her generation, "if the cancer doesn't get you, the drugs will/can"....

Hi all, greetings from your woo woo queen.
Your mom was probably talking about LSD. Or heroin. Or cocaine. All good cancer fighting drugs back in the 1940's.
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Old 7th April 2021, 03:16 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
Just reading on another group from a fellow who lost his mom due to cancer and the chemo drugs, and he believes she could have lived longer without the damaging drugs....

Stuff posted by random strangers on the internet is not particularly good evidence.

Quote:
and I've heard for decades from my own mom and her generation, "if the cancer doesn't get you, the drugs will/can"....

Have you forgotten how old you’re supposed to be again, or are you just not very good with tenses?
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Old 7th April 2021, 03:22 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
They sure do! Personal profit is precisely why most of them exist in the first place.
Prophecy can be profitable.
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Old 7th April 2021, 03:35 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
Just reading on another group from a fellow who lost his mom due to cancer and the chemo drugs, and he believes she could have lived longer without the damaging drugs...
So another bull **** story?
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Old 7th April 2021, 03:47 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Your mom was probably talking about LSD. Or heroin. Or cocaine. All good cancer fighting drugs back in the 1940's.
Yeah, right and you are brilliant, it was actually 1920's.
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Old 7th April 2021, 03:48 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
So another bull **** story?
Another brilliant comment!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 7th April 2021, 03:54 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
Another brilliant comment!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I don't need to be brilliant if I have a functioning bull **** meter.
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Old 7th April 2021, 03:58 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
Yeah, right and you are brilliant, it was actually 1920's.
No, LSD wasn't invented/discovered until late in 1938 (November the 16th, to be facty), 'actually'.
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Old 7th April 2021, 04:10 PM   #96
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Wait, do you think cancer treatment is the same as in the 1920s!?!
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Old 7th April 2021, 04:37 PM   #97
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It's true LSD wasn't invented until later, but cocaine was pretty common. You could get it over the counter in some medications.

When I was a croup-troubled kid in the 1950's I got Stokes Expectorant cough syrup whose cough suppressant was opium.

Chemotherapy can be pretty harsh, and it's not always successful, but it's gotten a lot better in recent years, and to suggest that it's as likely to kill you as cancer is statistical nonsense. I hope you never have to face that choice. Not only because it's a hard one, but because I suspect you're pretty sure to choose the shorter life.
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Old 7th April 2021, 04:37 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
It was actually 1920's.
Well then she definitely wasn't talking about chemotherapy.
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Old 7th April 2021, 04:49 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
It's true LSD wasn't invented until later, but cocaine was pretty common. You could get it over the counter in some medications.
I recall Robert Heinlein saying that as a naval academy cadet he could get alcohol delivered at the academy (it was illegal in the USA at the time) but they had to go to the pharmacy to get cocaine, which was legal. They preferred the booze.
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Old 7th April 2021, 05:05 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
Yeah, right and you are brilliant, it was actually 1920's.
So if you were a child remembering it then, you are now about 110 years old.

Seriously, get your script together before you post again.
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Old 7th April 2021, 07:03 PM   #101
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Caroline, if your mother was talking about cancer and the drugs of the 1920's, she sure wasn't talking about chemotherapy.

And not to be overly delicate here, given that some people have learned a thing or two over the decades, the possibility might also exist that she was ignorant, and that this is not a tradition to carry on with pride.
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Old 7th April 2021, 10:56 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
Just reading on another group from a fellow who lost his mom due to cancer and the chemo drugs, and he believes she could have lived longer without the damaging drugs....and I've heard for decades from my own mom and her generation, "if the cancer doesn't get you, the drugs will/can"....

Hi all, greetings from your woo woo queen.
Here's something you can read on the internet: chemo drugs cured my cancer.

Which version will you prefer I wonder...
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Old 8th April 2021, 03:40 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
Hi all, greetings from your woo woo queen.
Indeed.
As with all monarchs, you are unelected, unaccountable and a long way removed from reality.

Is this new title a mark of your published disdain for democracy?
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Old 8th April 2021, 05:37 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
Just reading on another group from a fellow who lost his mom due to cancer and the chemo drugs, and he believes she could have lived longer without the damaging drugs....and I've heard for decades from my own mom and her generation, "if the cancer doesn't get you, the drugs will/can"....

Hi all, greetings from your woo woo queen.
Yeah, so? Of what possible significance are his silly little beliefs? Assuming here that what you're saying his true and he said this on another group.
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Old 8th April 2021, 06:06 AM   #105
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You know - I can match your anecdote.

I worked with a guy who's father had bad heart problems, and was on some heavy meds that kept him alive.

He met with a guy who recommended vitamins and supplements for heart conditions.

He died three weeks after stopping his meds.

I'm sure you'll either ignore this or not believe it - but I know it was true.

You see why your anecdotes have no value at all?

Bit like alternate medicine!
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Old 8th April 2021, 09:57 AM   #106
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Yeay, I have one too: my dad, who had various heart difficulties, including being in failure, took it upon himself to stop taking the diuretics (didn't discuss it with his cardiology team, his GP nor either of his children, both being nurses, just did it). There rapidly were several cardiac arrests, then a significant stroke, leading to a hospital admission and eventual death from another cardiac arrest...

And I'm not sure what supplements he could have taken to prevent any of that lot...
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Old 8th April 2021, 10:07 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
Oh would I blame pharma for your cat's death??? Good Grief, keep making up cwap.
Why do you do this?

Incidentally why on earth do you even bother posting here?
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Old 8th April 2021, 10:26 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
Just reading on another group from a fellow who lost his mom due to cancer and the chemo drugs, and he believes she could have lived longer without the damaging drugs....and I've heard for decades from my own mom and her generation, "if the cancer doesn't get you, the drugs will/can"....

Hi all, greetings from your woo woo queen.
Good point. Anecdotes on Internet groups are the best sources of information about health information and nothing has changed in the 100 years since your mother told you something about cancer in the 1920s.

I'm convinced. I'd like a crate of grape seed extract please.
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Old 8th April 2021, 10:54 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
Just reading on another group from a fellow who lost his mom due to cancer and the chemo drugs, and he believes she could have lived longer without the damaging drugs....and I've heard for decades from my own mom and her generation, "if the cancer doesn't get you, the drugs will/can"....

Well, sure, that's how it works. Some cancer patients take chemo with a small chance of remission and a high possibility that it will make their lives both worse and shorter. These days that is usually a well-informed choice. Some feel better on the treatments. Many cancer treatments have a high probability of medium or long term success, and this is much more true now than ten years ago, much more true ten years ago than twenty years ago.
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Old 8th April 2021, 01:25 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by Pooneil View Post
Profits are not really the motive you think they are. For-prophet organizations behave in the exact same variety of ways as for-profit organizations. The problem of bad behavior is a human problem and cannot be dismissed quite so quickly.
A new lawsuit by one of the Huntsman clan will test the Mormon church's for-profit versus for-prophet motives. It alleges that instead of channeling its tithing donations (required of all members in order to remain in good standing) toward charitable and ministerial ends, it used them to feed its $100 billion (yes, billion with a 'B') investment warchest. You don't have to live in Utah for very long to realize the Mormon church is less a church and more of a medium-sized investment and real-estate holding corporation. The church has been sued before over alleged misuses of charitable donations. But this one will try a new argument, and it will be able to cite to the undeniable existence of the aforementioned warchest. Previous claimants fell under the caveat donor defense.

But all that aside, Utah's particular intersection between supplement makers/distributors and multi-level management scams means our state has a disappointingly large number of "supplement companies" that are quite obviously just get-rich-quick schemes, because that's what MLM schemes essentially are.

Sen. Orrin Hatch, who represented Utah for 40-odd years in the Senate, indeed made many good strides in mainstsream medical policy, including expanding public benefits for children and the underprivileged. But what he'll be most remembered for in that arena is paving the way for "supplements" to be essentially unregulated. Not to rehash the discussion over what liability supplement-makers actually have, but it's far less than something marketed as a medicine. And therefore far less expensive to make, and therefore naturally more profitable.

So let's take a good hard look. There's no science to support the efficacy of the product. There's no law to require any -- in fact, a law specifically exempting them, so long as they make certain representations. No training for the distributors in nutrition, pharmacology, product-liability law, or anything that would prepare them to responsibly sell things intended for human consumption. Nothing, in fact, that suggests customer safety and benefit ranks high on the list of priorities. High-pressure focus on sales volume and building an individual sales empire. Explain again how some supplement distributors are morally superior to for-profit pharmaceutical companies?

Sure, there are probably honorable and dishonorable business practices in both the mainstream pharmaceutical industry and the mainstream or cottage supplements industries. The point is how the discussion wants to characterize them as a rule. The case for supplements is framed as supplements being better as a rule in so many respects, not the least of which is their contrast to Big Pharma and all its evils. I simply don't see how there's a necessary moral advantage. And I think it's dishonest to try to shift the criteria from "Who makes an effective product?" to "Who is more morally devout?" It's shady marketing.

How many "supplement companies" did our OP say she owned? Something like 10? I find my life considerably occupied just being part owner of my day-job company (science and engineering). I'm the sole proprietor of a company that manages my own real-estate "empire," but because I don't solicit donations from gullible rubes and rely on generally-accepted business practices (including contracting for most of the required labor and materials), I aim for just a shade over the break-even mark. I have zero capacity these days for other companies I "own" but which exist solely on paper and simply allow me to compartmentalize my extracurricular activities for public transparency purposes. The point remains that I cannot imagine that our OP's "supplement companies" exist in any way except on paper, if they exist at all outside her fertile imagination. The amount of time and energy required to run ten companies in any meaningful way far exceeds what is possible for any person, supplemented or otherwise.

Granted, our OP hasn't specifically referred to MLM-style businesses, but I'm seeing some warning flags based on what she has revealed.
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Old 9th April 2021, 12:23 AM   #111
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Caroline13, why don't supplements protect us from the side effects of pharmaceuticals?
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Old 9th April 2021, 12:26 AM   #112
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I wasn't going to mention H.e.r.b.a.l.i.f.e or similar multi-level supplement marketing schemes w.r.t. "Caroline's" multiple companies. Because that makes posts here Google bot targets to pump up her promotion level. Which is all "she" is here for.
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Old 9th April 2021, 08:49 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
A new lawsuit by one of the Huntsman clan will test the Mormon church's for-profit versus for-prophet motives.
Good luck to them.

Quote:
...Utah's particular intersection between supplement makers/distributors and multi-level management scams means our state has a disappointingly large number of "supplement companies" that are quite obviously just get-rich-quick schemes...
I didn't know Utah was so "blessed."

Quote:
I think it's dishonest to try to shift the criteria from "Who makes an effective product?" to "Who is more morally devout?" It's shady marketing.
There is a reason that these kind of shady practices work on people who take things on faith. Be it the church faithful or a political identified. Look at the scam Bannon tried to pull off.

Quote:
I find my life considerably occupied just being part owner of my day-job company (science and engineering). I'm the sole proprietor of a company that manages my own real-estate "empire," but because I don't solicit donations from gullible rubes and rely on generally-accepted business practices (including contracting for most of the required labor and materials), I aim for just a shade over the break-even mark.
IME, most proprietorships and small enterprises are structured to make very little accounting profits. In particular engineering companies with relatively low financial capital needs avoid profits. The valued capital goes home at night and tends to have a claim on surpluses as end of year bonuses. Real estate tends be a low return business, so people often use leverage to create long term capital gains rather than accounting profits. That is how I operated my modest real estate investments when I had them.
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Old 9th April 2021, 12:38 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Caroline13, why don't supplements protect us from the side effects of pharmaceuticals?
Well, for starters DON'T take pharma drugs if one can take a supplement for the issues they are trying to address. And if you know what drug is doing damage, get on some others from your MD, there are many options with the drug world.

Supplements are not designed to clean up the mess from pharma drugs. They are designed to prevent health issues in the beginning. Or at least to manage health issues people end up with.

My daughter ended up with collapsed tendons in both feet from Cipro G.D. drug and no supplement is going to fix that damage. It was a tough time in her life and she listened to a script writer as we all found out later.

Same here I ended up with damaged right side of body from hip replacement and no supplement is going to reverse this mess. Yes, I take supplements for this damage and low dose pain meds to get me thru 24 hrs day by day.

And thankful for a walker that I never thought I'd need after the hip job, but I was surprised.
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Old 9th April 2021, 01:06 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
Well, for starters DON'T take pharma drugs if one can take a supplement for the issues they are trying to address. And if you know what drug is doing damage, get on some others from your MD, there are many options with the drug world.
So you are advocating to avoid tested, regulated medicines in favour of untested, unregulated snake-oil. Gotcha. And you are not pushing any particular nostrums either.



Quote:
Supplements are not designed to clean up the mess from pharma drugs. They are designed to prevent health issues in the beginning. Or at least to manage health issues people end up with.
They exist solely to make the seller money, that's all.

Quote:
My daughter ended up with collapsed tendons in both feet from Cipro G.D. drug and no supplement is going to fix that damage. It was a tough time in her life and she listened to a script writer as we all found out later.
Cipro is an antibacterial. How does it lead to "collapsed tendons in feet"? The noted side effects are: nausea, vomiting, stomach pain, heartburn, diarrhea, vaginal itching and/or discharge, pale skin, unusual tiredness. But nothing about feet. Sounds like a fib.

And what is a "script writer"? Do you mean prescription? A doctor actually prescribed the medication? Horrors!

Quote:
Same here I ended up with damaged right side of body from hip replacement and no supplement is going to reverse this mess. Yes, I take supplements for this damage and low dose pain meds to get me thru 24 hrs day by day.

And thankful for a walker that I never thought I'd need after the hip job, but I was surprised.
If supplements are not going to help but modern medicine does, what lesson are you learning, or failing to learn, here?

Also, your writing style seems to have changed noticeably. New author?
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Old 9th April 2021, 01:30 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post

My daughter ended up with collapsed tendons in both feet from Cipro G.D. drug and no supplement is going to fix that damage. It was a tough time in her life and she listened to a script writer as we all found out later.
Smells like bull ****; I've been on Cipro and collapsed tendons weren't listed as a side effect. Intestinal issues sure, but I got over those after a day or two. Sounds like you're confusing correlation with causation.
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Old 9th April 2021, 01:51 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
Smells like bull ****; I've been on Cipro and collapsed tendons weren't listed as a side effect. Intestinal issues sure, but I got over those after a day or two. Sounds like you're confusing correlation with causation.
Causes of collapsed tendon.

Quote:
An acute injury, such as from a fall, can tear the posterior tibial tendon or cause it to become inflamed. The tendon can also tear due to overuse. For example, people who do high-impact sports, such as basketball, tennis, or soccer, may have tears of the tendon from repetitive use. Once the tendon becomes inflamed or torn, the arch will slowly fall (collapse) over time.

Posterior tibial tendon dysfunction is more common in women and in people older than 40 years of age. Additional risk factors include obesity, diabetes, and hypertension.
I think your last sentence was spot-on.
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Old 9th April 2021, 04:26 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
Smells like bull ****; I've been on Cipro and collapsed tendons weren't listed as a side effect. Intestinal issues sure, but I got over those after a day or two. Sounds like you're confusing correlation with causation.

How long ago? Tendon weakness is a known side effect. Your doctor and the pharmacist should have warned you about the potential of tendon injuries. When I took levo two years ago, my doctor mentioned that two of his patients tore their achillies tendons while on floxacins. I know when I took cipro 20 years ago or so there was no such warning though.
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Old 9th April 2021, 04:43 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by Modified View Post
How long ago? Tendon weakness is a known side effect. Your doctor and the pharmacist should have warned you about the potential of tendon injuries. When I took levo two years ago, my doctor mentioned that two of his patients tore their achillies tendons while on floxacins. I know when I took cipro 20 years ago or so there was no such warning though.
Mine was more than 20 years ago.

But I'm still calling bull ****.
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Old 9th April 2021, 04:48 PM   #120
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Oh come on, take all your Cipro I don't care.

https://www.webmd.com/osteoarthritis...upture-tendons
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