IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags transgender incidents , transgender issues , transgender rights

Reply
Old 7th April 2021, 03:58 PM   #2201
Collin237
Muse
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 573
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I would say it sounds pretty reasonable and well considered... which means that at least some people would insist it's incredibly transphobic.
It's exactly the TRA talking points. The only difference is it's written by someone who "identifies" as a PhD.
__________________
We hold this truth to be self-evident.
All records are created with the same number of bytes.
Collin237 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th April 2021, 03:59 PM   #2202
xjx388
Philosopher
 
xjx388's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 9,311
Originally Posted by Collin237 View Post
Pretty unimpressive.

ETA: From his webpage and a google search, it looks like he's just another pseudo-intellectual carpetbagger.
What makes Cantor pseudo-intellectual, but the researchers you agree with not?

I suspect I answered my own question . . .
__________________
Hello.
xjx388 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th April 2021, 04:00 PM   #2203
d4m10n
Philosopher
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 6,687
Originally Posted by Elaedith View Post
Have you read anything by Helen Pluckrose?
I've read her book on the nature and practice of applied postmodernism. It was balanced and relatively non-polemical, all things considered.
__________________
"Well, a statement like that is all the better for proof, but go on, anyway." - Salvor Hardin
d4m10n is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th April 2021, 04:03 PM   #2204
Sherkeu
Master Poster
 
Sherkeu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Disneyland
Posts: 2,485
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post


I feel like I'm being gaslit here.

Identical request and argument made by one group of posters: hysterical, transphobic, overreacting, nonsense, etc.

Same thing from a different group of posters: considered and moderate and worth having a discussion about.

What is the difference between those two groups of posters... anyone have any observations to toss in here?
Oh my...I am right with you on this. You have explained it very well, a zillion times over, with no observable change. But then someone else makes the same argument with perhaps different anatomy.
We could tell our personal stories and decades of experiences till every cow comes home. All discounted.
Sherkeu is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th April 2021, 04:09 PM   #2205
d4m10n
Philosopher
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 6,687
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
What is the difference between those two groups of posters... anyone have any observations to toss in here?
One of them actually dwells in the spaces currently under contention while the other group (mine) merely philosophizes from a safe distance.
__________________
"Well, a statement like that is all the better for proof, but go on, anyway." - Salvor Hardin

Last edited by d4m10n; 7th April 2021 at 04:11 PM.
d4m10n is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th April 2021, 04:19 PM   #2206
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth
Posts: 15,369
Originally Posted by Collin237 View Post
It's exactly the TRA talking points. The only difference is it's written by someone who "identifies" as a PhD.
I think there are some material differences. In particular...

Quote:
3. People considering transition have the right to receive from their health care providers all information pertaining to their decision regarding whether, how, and when to transition.
This includes medical benefits and risks, cosmetic possibilities and limitations, plain-language description about rates of regret among those who transition, and any factors that might affect that risk.
The TRA approach denies that regret should be discussed, or that detransition is a concern. They push a narrative of puberty blockers being harmless and perfectly reversible, when that is not the case. They also claim that cross-sex hormones aren't dangerous... and I've even seen some TRAs make the idiotic claim that cross-sex hormones have reversible effects, which they most definitely do not.

Quote:
6. Transsexual individuals have the right, during transition, to access sex-specific public facilities in which their contrary genital status would not be evident.
For example, for the great majority of instances, a presurgical male-to-female transsexual presenting as female can use a female-designated restroom unobtrusively. Only in few instances, such as public showers, would a mismatch between the sex-designation of the facility and personís preoperative status be an issue. In such instances, an alternative should be available, in the same spirit that public facilities are responsible for providing for the needs of individuals with mobility impairments.
The TRA position is that transgender people should have access to ALL sex-segregated areas on the basis of their gender identity, REGARDLESS of their genital status. In fact, the TRA position has led to outcomes like teenage girls in Washington being told that if they're uncomfortable being exposed to a transwoman's naked penis in their showers, they need to shower elsewhere. That position has also led to high school girls in Illlinois being told that they have not right to visual privacy from a male-bodied transgirl in their locker rooms. The TRA position strongly opposes the alternative of a separate room for transgender individuals to use.
__________________
I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.
Emily's Cat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th April 2021, 04:54 PM   #2207
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 92,068
Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
What makes Cantor pseudo-intellectual, but the researchers you agree with not?

I suspect I answered my own question . . .
I suspect that's why I didn't get an answer to the same question.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th April 2021, 04:56 PM   #2208
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 92,068
Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
I'd entirely agree that there's a discussion to be had around which rights should be extended to transgender people, and which should not.
No, no, no. One cannot have "degrees of support" for transgender rights. I got this form a source you consider to be infaillible.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th April 2021, 04:57 PM   #2209
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 92,068
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post


I feel like I'm being gaslit here.

Identical request and argument made by one group of posters: hysterical, transphobic, overreacting, nonsense, etc.

Same thing from a different group of posters: considered and moderate and worth having a discussion about.

What is the difference between those two groups of posters... anyone have any observations to toss in here?
I have no idea. Theprestige is way to the right of myself and, I suspect, you. He should be far more reviled by John.

But then nothing about this discussion makes any sense.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th April 2021, 04:58 PM   #2210
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 92,068
Originally Posted by Collin237 View Post
So he founded the ideological campaign that he now claims is persecuting him.

Cantor is singly responsible for the worldwide tide of transphobia. If not for him, this thread wouldn't exist. And you knew this all along and didn't see fit to tell us.
You know... now I'm starting to think that you keep calling other people conspiracy theorists because you're projecting.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th April 2021, 04:59 PM   #2211
Collin237
Muse
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 573
Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
What makes Cantor pseudo-intellectual, but the researchers you agree with not?

I suspect I answered my own question . . .
Yes, you did. The research I agree with (or even consider whether I agree with) isn't attached to the self-promotion of the author.
__________________
We hold this truth to be self-evident.
All records are created with the same number of bytes.
Collin237 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th April 2021, 04:59 PM   #2212
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 92,068
Originally Posted by Collin237 View Post
It's exactly the TRA talking points. The only difference is it's written by someone who "identifies" as a PhD.
Well that should be embraced by the postmodernists, here!
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th April 2021, 05:08 PM   #2213
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 50,622
I once read an illustrated history of postmodernism. Like a cross between a comic book and a "For Dummies" guide. It was quite entertaining, cited its references, and seemed to do a good job of explaining things. Or at least, it left me thinking that if the book had gotten anything wrong, postermodernists were the last people to have any standing to complain about it.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th April 2021, 05:08 PM   #2214
Collin237
Muse
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 573
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
You know... now I'm starting to think that you keep calling other people conspiracy theorists because you're projecting.
Whatever gets you through the night.

As for me, I think I've found the answer I came here looking for.
__________________
We hold this truth to be self-evident.
All records are created with the same number of bytes.
Collin237 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th April 2021, 05:18 PM   #2215
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 92,068
Originally Posted by Collin237 View Post
Whatever gets you through the night.
I really don't understand your thing. Your profile says 2015 and yet I don't seem to have a memory of discussing with you before. You seem to approach every discussion with a hint of disdain and belligerence... I can't quite grasp why.

Quote:
As for me, I think I've found the answer I came here looking for.
I suspect you had the answer beforehand.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th April 2021, 07:04 PM   #2216
sarge
Philosopher
 
sarge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Fayetteville, NC
Posts: 7,019
Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
What you may be failing to notice is that if someone, for example, expresses opinions such as:

"I am all in favour of transgender rights. But I won't have transwomen in women's changing rooms"

or

"I am all in favour of transgender rights. But I won't have transgirls in high school competing in the girls' sporting events"

or

"I am all in favour of transgender rights. But I won't have transwomen being eligible for women's quotas"


..... then those opinions are, I'm afraid, effectively transphobic in nature (in spite of the overt declarations of support up front).


And, BTW, one cannot have "degrees of support" for transgender rights. One either supports transgender rights, or one does not.

That'd be like saying "I have a varying degree of support for black civil rights: I'm fine with most of it, but I'll be damned if black people will be allowed to eat in the same restaurants as me".
Complete nonsense. You are attempting to define as rights things that you say trans people want the privilege of doing.

There is no right for a male to be nude in front of non-consenting females. There is no right for males to compete in female only sports. There is no right for males to represent the views of females in sex-specific representative situations.
__________________
My previous signature risked (unknowingly) violating the Hatch Act!
sarge is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th April 2021, 11:02 PM   #2217
xjx388
Philosopher
 
xjx388's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 9,311
Originally Posted by Collin237 View Post
Yes, you did. The research I agree with (or even consider whether I agree with) isn't attached to the self-promotion of the author.

You are missing the point. I see no problem with Cantorís credentials. A PhD is a PhD. Why is Cantorís PhD less valid than the ones possessed by the authors you agree with?
__________________
Hello.
xjx388 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th April 2021, 11:47 PM   #2218
Aber
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,734
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
What is the difference between those two groups of posters... anyone have any observations to toss in here?
Middle aged male lawyers don't like losing an argument, even when they've not bothered to do any serious research and formed an opinion that is internally inconsistent. May just try to bluster through as they do in real life.
Aber is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th April 2021, 01:47 AM   #2219
Collin237
Muse
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 573
Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
You are missing the point. I see no problem with Cantorís credentials. A PhD is a PhD. Why is Cantorís PhD less valid than the ones possessed by the authors you agree with?
The articles I agreed with had substance; I agreed with what they hypothesized. I didn't even notice who the authors were.

Cantor's articles are about what Cantor, specifically, said and did. They're centered around him as a person, not his theory.

Cantor seems like more of a celebrity than a researcher.
__________________
We hold this truth to be self-evident.
All records are created with the same number of bytes.
Collin237 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th April 2021, 01:52 AM   #2220
Elaedith
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,536
Originally Posted by Collin237 View Post
The articles I agreed with had substance; I agreed with what they hypothesized. I didn't even notice who the authors were.

Cantor's articles are about what Cantor, specifically, said and did. They're centered around him as a person, not his theory.

Cantor seems like more of a celebrity than a researcher.
There is a list of Cantor's publications at the bottom of this page:

http://www.jamescantor.org/research.html

Perhaps you could point out which articles you read, and in what way they are about him.
__________________
Those who have virtue always in their mouths, and neglect it in practice, are like a harp which emits a sound pleasing to others, while itself is insensible of the music. - Diogenes
Elaedith is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th April 2021, 02:59 AM   #2221
caveman1917
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 8,025
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Please exercise some good-faith explicitness, and frame your comments as "prepubescent kids shouldn't medically transition". And even then, many of us think that some exceptions should be allowed.
Yes, evidence-based exceptions though. Not based on logical fallacies in lieu of evidence as Earthborn keeps pushing. Prescribing puberty blockers (or any other such treatment) to a gender-dysphoric child requires an evidence-based reason that this particular child is much more likely to be a trans kid than a confused gay kid. Absent such evidence-based reason the prior probability of about an 80-20 chance against the kid being trans applies. You can't just randomly prescribe puberty blockers to a cohort that consists mostly of just confused gay kids.
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
caveman1917 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th April 2021, 03:11 AM   #2222
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 92,068
Originally Posted by sarge View Post
Complete nonsense. You are attempting to define as rights things that you say trans people want the privilege of doing.

There is no right for a male to be nude in front of non-consenting females. There is no right for males to compete in female only sports. There is no right for males to represent the views of females in sex-specific representative situations.
I want 10% of everything to be made for left-handed people. Disagree? You're against leftie rights!
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th April 2021, 03:12 AM   #2223
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 92,068
Originally Posted by Collin237 View Post
The articles I agreed with had substance
That sounds like a dodge. You know, a vague answer, unfalsifiable and with, how should I say.... no substance.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th April 2021, 04:32 AM   #2224
SuburbanTurkey
Philosopher
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 8,529
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post


The TRA position is that transgender people should have access to ALL sex-segregated areas on the basis of their gender identity, REGARDLESS of their genital status. In fact, the TRA position has led to outcomes like teenage girls in Washington being told that if they're uncomfortable being exposed to a transwoman's naked penis in their showers, they need to shower elsewhere. That position has also led to high school girls in Illlinois being told that they have not right to visual privacy from a male-bodied transgirl in their locker rooms. The TRA position strongly opposes the alternative of a separate room for transgender individuals to use.
This is untrue. The transwoman was in a sauna, which was a secluded area off-limits to the group that was permitted to use the swimming facilities. The narrative peddled by the bigots at the ADF, that this trans woman was deliberately strutting about to show off her genitalia to children, is a total fiction meant only to drum up hatred against trans people.

It should be known that the girls swim team was the guest of Evergreen college, meanwhile the transwoman being harassed was a student at the university. Seems pretty clear to me that a student of a college should get more accommodation than some unrelated swim club that rents time from the college.

Allowing these guests to use another locker room was a very measured solution from the college. Outright revoking the high school swim team's access, in response to a harassment campaign against a trans student of the university, would have been well within their rights.

This is how the anti-trans bigot machine works. A false story vilifying trans people is breathlessly reported and repeated until it is accepted as true.

Reporting from an outlet that actually contacted Evergreen college to get the details, rather than credulously running the narrative presented by the ADF.

https://www.transadvocate.com/collee...nt_n_10765.htm
__________________
Gobble gobble

Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 8th April 2021 at 04:55 AM.
SuburbanTurkey is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th April 2021, 04:42 AM   #2225
LondonJohn
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 17,034
Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Bull. I'm not denying the validity of the transgender identity. I'm denying the idea that this identity magically changes fundamental aspects of biology or imbues the individual with some essence that makes them "woman" or "man."

I accept that transgendered people really do identify as the other sex and that this identification causes problems for them that we need to address. I do not accept that this means that they actually become the other sex with all the physical and social implications or that we can actually address every problem the condition creates.

Transgender people identify as a different gender, not sex (the clue is in the name "transgender"). And it's now agreed by the experts that gender is different from sex.

So no, identifying as transgender doesn't "magically change fundamental aspects of biology", and nor does it need to in order to be valid.

In the view of the world's accredited experts in the relevant fields, and to paraphrase this thread's title: transwomen are women (and transmen are men)

The way you appear currently to categorise/accommodate transgender people is similar to, say, how you'd categorise/accommodate a middle-aged male who believed themselves to be a baby: you'd try to accommodate the condition, while still knowing that the person in question wasn't actually a baby.

In the case of a middle-aged male considering themselves to be a baby, the experts deem that to be a delusion - the product of a mental health disorder.

In the case of transgender people, the experts now deem that to be a valid lived condition - not the product of a mental health disorder.

That would be the crucial difference.
LondonJohn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th April 2021, 04:49 AM   #2226
LondonJohn
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 17,034
Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
Oh my...I am right with you on this. You have explained it very well, a zillion times over, with no observable change. But then someone else makes the same argument with perhaps different anatomy.
We could tell our personal stories and decades of experiences till every cow comes home. All discounted.

It's the difference between (for example)

1) aggressively, vehemently and hyperbolically stating that a) the granting of certain transgender rights will inevitably cause epidemic levels of harm to, and offending against, females; b) this is all a case of males either not caring about females' rights, or even actively seeking to remove females' rights; and c) one is necessarily a misogynist if, for example, one believes that transmen should be allowed to use the men's facilities, and vice versa;

and

2) suggesting, with no labels or aggressiveness, that there might be some boundaries to what society might deem acceptable as trans rights, and inviting debate on the matter.


Hope that's made things a bit clearer?
LondonJohn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th April 2021, 04:54 AM   #2227
LondonJohn
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 17,034
Originally Posted by sarge View Post
Complete nonsense. You are attempting to define as rights things that you say trans people want the privilege of doing.

There is no right for a male to be nude in front of non-consenting females. There is no right for males to compete in female only sports. There is no right for males to represent the views of females in sex-specific representative situations.

Is there the right of a female transman to be nude in front of non-consenting males men? Is there a right for females transmen to compete in male-only men-only sports? Is there a right for females transmen to represent the views of males men in sex-specific gender-specific representative situations?


Do you think black men should have had the right to sit tight alongside (non-consenting) white women on bench seats in buses?
LondonJohn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th April 2021, 04:56 AM   #2228
LondonJohn
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 17,034
Originally Posted by Aber View Post
Middle aged male lawyers don't like losing an argument, even when they've not bothered to do any serious research and formed an opinion that is internally inconsistent. May just try to bluster through as they do in real life.

Ooh please do expand upon this blatant personalisation! I'm all ears!*


* No I'm not all ears. Don't do it again please.
LondonJohn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th April 2021, 05:13 AM   #2229
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 50,746
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Sex is a species-level categorization. All members of the human species are either male or female, depending on the type of gamete that they develop to produce. A person who developed to produce ova, but does not because of a DSD or a hysterectomy or menopause is still female. A person who developed to produce sperm, however, is not and cannot be male. A person whose gamete production has been interrupted, has ceased, or has been removed doesn't become a third sex... and there is no "in between" gamete. There are two, and only two gamete types. This is true for every single mammal on the planet. Indeed, it's true for nearly all vertebrates.
And a person who never developed any gametes is of course still human and so both male and female as that is a species level distinction and not an individual person level distinction. All humans are male and female because that is the definition of the human species.

Just like all people are heterosexual because that is simply how reproduction works people, simple biology!
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th April 2021, 05:16 AM   #2230
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 50,746
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Is it hyperbolic? Yes. It is. I don't think the number of transgender males in the world is enough that, even if we granted them full rights as women, it would send females back to the kitchen.
Nice to see you keeping up with the transphobic language. Got to stick it to those freaks at every opportunity while claiming to support them.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th April 2021, 05:17 AM   #2231
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 50,746
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Well that's just silly.
Exactly there was nothing racist about separate but equal it was just a difference in degree of support for equal rights. Some are just always more equal than others.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th April 2021, 05:20 AM   #2232
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 50,746
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I absolutely love how you always think you have the win, no matter what you say. You're never actually interested in what other people have to say.

The answer to your question is "yes, absolutely." All you have to do is agree that some rights should be had and others not, or that some things are rigths and others not.

You're welcome, although I know you will never even consider learning from someone else than yourself.
Got it there was nothing fundamentally racist about jim crow or block busting. It is outrageous that people consider such thing as blatantly racist.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th April 2021, 05:22 AM   #2233
SuburbanTurkey
Philosopher
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 8,529
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And a person who never developed any gametes is of course still human and so both male and female as that is a species level distinction and not an individual person level distinction. All humans are male and female because that is the definition of the human species.

Just like all people are heterosexual because that is simply how reproduction works people, simple biology!
Biological essentialism, not just for right wing freaks anymore!

I'm always baffled by the liberal transphobes that believe they can a-la-carte discriminate against trans people and not have it come back and bite them in the ass if they are successful. The arguments against transgender people are rooted in the exact same heteronormative, patriarchal social norms that, if allowed to become the drivers of public policy, will see the rights of all women and non-trans queer people eroded.

TERFs beware, you're making a deal with the devil. There's no way to surgically wield this kind of biological essentialism against trans people and not have it turned against everyone else.
__________________
Gobble gobble

Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 8th April 2021 at 05:25 AM.
SuburbanTurkey is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th April 2021, 05:23 AM   #2234
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 50,746
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Not really.

It'd be a lot more like saying, "I fully support black civil rights, but I'll be damned if black people will be promoted because of the color of their skin rather of the contents of their resume."
Or if they use my bathroom! Or move into my neighborhood!

Thank god being in the old boys network as a reason to be promoted will always help the whites, that is something everyone can be for and not be perceived as racist. My god imagine thinking it was racist to simply throw out resumes with black sounding names!
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th April 2021, 05:26 AM   #2235
Earthborn
Terrestrial Intelligence
 
Earthborn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Terra Firma
Posts: 6,346
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Prescribing puberty blockers (or any other such treatment) to a gender-dysphoric child requires an evidence-based reason that this particular child is much more likely to be a trans kid than a confused gay kid.
Obviously it is difficult to present evidence of what is going to happen to each individual child in the future. If you demand clairvoyance, you are going to be disappointed.

Quote:
You can't just randomly prescribe puberty blockers to a cohort that consists mostly of just confused gay kids.
In the Dutch Approach, puberty blockers aren't randomly prescribed. They are only prescribed if forcing a child with an apparently stabile gender identity to go through puberty just to prove that they might turn gay is cruel experimentation.
__________________
Perhaps nothing is entirely true; and not even that!
Multatuli
Earthborn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th April 2021, 05:26 AM   #2236
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 50,746
Originally Posted by Paul2 View Post
I'm in favor of free speech, but you can't yell "fire" in a crowded theater.

I'm in favor of voting rights, but the polls close at 8 pm.
]
And there is of course nothing racist about making sure the lines at performantly black poling places are many times the length of predominately white ones. That is just differences of opinions in equality.

Separate drinking fountains was perfectly reasonable because of the number of white people uncomfortable sharing a drinking fountain with blacks for example.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th April 2021, 05:29 AM   #2237
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 50,746
Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Absolutely ridiculous.

I am all for transgender rights. They, like racial minorities, should have the same rights as anyone else, just not extra rights that others don't have.
And like minorities they need to wear badges constantly to identify them so that merely having a beard does not let a trans man use the men's room! He needs to use the women's room and needs to be clearly identifiable as trans. Legally mandated arm badges seem a traditional way of achieving this.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th April 2021, 05:33 AM   #2238
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 92,068
Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
...and c) one is necessarily a misogynist if, for example, one believes that transmen should be allowed to use the men's facilities, and vice versa;
Is that so unlike insisting that one is necessarily a transphobe if, for example, one believes that transmen should not be allowed to use the men's facilities, and vice versa?
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th April 2021, 05:34 AM   #2239
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 92,068
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I'm always baffled by the liberal transphobes that believe they can a-la-carte discriminate against trans people and not have it come back and bite them in the ass if they are successful.
You would probably be far less confused if you didn't consider that anyone disagreeing with you was a transphobe.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th April 2021, 05:35 AM   #2240
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 50,746
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
No, no, no. One cannot have "degrees of support" for transgender rights. I got this form a source you consider to be infaillible.
Like there is no homophobic side in the whole gay adoption issue, it is all just degrees of support.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:46 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.