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Tags !MOD BOX WARNING! , environmental activists , Greta Thunberg

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Old 7th April 2021, 03:59 AM   #2201
Cosmic Yak
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
All the while we keep burning fossil fuels as we see fit.....

The reality is....we like fossil fuels and the benefits they provide us and very few people are willing to give up those benefits by consuming less. Talking about climate change, raising awareness, totally overvalued and have been for decades. Just look at the real world success Al Gore had.
Not sure where you're getting this from.
Use of renewables in the UK is at an all-time high, and still increasing.
Meanwhile the last coal-powered power plant is due to close in 2022. Britain is now emitting less carbon than at any time since 1888.
Seems to me that the message has got through, and we're well on track.
https://news.sky.com/story/climate-c...ton-a-12253548

https://www.theguardian.com/environm...0year%20before.

https://www.itv.com/news/2020-03-03/...analysis-shows
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Old 7th April 2021, 04:13 AM   #2202
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
... “Greta and her movement have played an incredibly important role in raising awareness.”
Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
That's great, but what has it done to affect policy or behavior?
As any marketer knows, brand awareness must be multiplied times other factors, such as preference and availability, in order to derive a final estimate of resulting share. Point being, those enhancing mind share cannot be taken to task for the lack of any ensuing behavioural change, unless of course they've acted to lower awareness.

Further, you have bully pulpits, such as those of Trump and Bolsonaro, blasting out the opposite message from those of Greta et al, meaning that even by increasing awareness, they do so while arguing for little or no behavioral change.

Nothing to see here; air ball.
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Old 7th April 2021, 06:52 AM   #2203
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Not sure where you're getting this from.
Use of renewables in the UK is at an all-time high, and still increasing.
...]
Doesn't the use of renewables reach an all time high almost every day?

It really does not address the world's appetite for fossil fuels..
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Old 7th April 2021, 08:43 AM   #2204
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
It's really not all that difficult.


If "it's not that difficult" go ahead and show us the math...

Originally Posted by Stout View Post

Like it or not, that was Thunberg's message....VOTE.
Actually her message is to get your facts from actual scientists and base policy on actual science. Yeah, this requires people to vote for science based policy, something that work well for democracies in the EU.

Since she isn't a pro-freedom, pro-democracy advocate it's disingenuous to blame her for the flawed US democracy that prevent voting from being a viable path in the US or China.

Originally Posted by Stout View Post

All the while we keep burning fossil fuels as we see fit.
Only because they are subsidized by socializing the resulting damage or just outright dumping those costs on others. It's no secret that this type of thing will distort markets and create demand that wouldn't normally exist in a competitive undistorted marketplace.

Originally Posted by Stout View Post

The reality is....we like fossil fuels and the benefits they provide us and very few people are willing to give up
People like free stuff, even when it means someone else needs to pay the bill. Make them pay their own bill and the story tends to change.
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Old 7th April 2021, 08:58 AM   #2205
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Not sure where you're getting this from.
Use of renewables in the UK is at an all-time high, and still increasing.
Meanwhile the last coal-powered power plant is due to close in 2022. Britain is now emitting less carbon than at any time since 1888.
Seems to me that the message has got through, and we're well on track.
https://news.sky.com/story/climate-c...ton-a-12253548

https://www.theguardian.com/environm...0year%20before.

https://www.itv.com/news/2020-03-03/...analysis-shows
Indeed, and a quick satellite view of Hull will show large rows of turbine blades waiting to be shipped to offshore wind farms.

We are also moving to planning carbon capture, in our region, as well as new hydrogen plants. And our site is set to use locally sourced biomass instead of gas. A fast tracked project.

People are taking this stuff seriously, and at an impressive rate.

Carbon footprint per capita for the UK has been dropping since 1980:
from 10.3 to 5.6t/capita.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ons_per_capita

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Hu...6!4d-0.3274198

Now all we need are more cycle lanes.
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Old 7th April 2021, 11:41 AM   #2206
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Not sure where you're getting this from.
Use of renewables in the UK is at an all-time high, and still increasing.
Meanwhile the last coal-powered power plant is due to close in 2022. Britain is now emitting less carbon than at any time since 1888.
Seems to me that the message has got through, and we're well on track.
https://news.sky.com/story/climate-c...ton-a-12253548

https://www.theguardian.com/environm...0year%20before.

https://www.itv.com/news/2020-03-03/...analysis-shows
That's all well and good and should be celebrated if you're looking at the 2050 timeline but if you're looking at the Thungerg ( and others ) timeline it's nowhere near enough.

If you're on board with the whole climate emergency and hoping to avoid the 2028 tipping point then far more needs to be done. Remember it's the developed world that need to make those massive cuts and absorb the emissions from the developing world so don't par yourselves on the back to much.

Quote:
“It’s important the government does not celebrate this, instead it must ramp up action to genuinely slash emissions in a meaningful way from every sector of society,” Greenpeace UK’s policy director, Doug Parr said in a statement.
Source
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Old 7th April 2021, 12:09 PM   #2207
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
If "it's not that difficult" go ahead and show us the math...
The clock is still ticking down in real time, had Thunberg's raising awareness campaign had it's desired effect, the countdown would have slowed.

Quote:
Actually her message is to get your facts from actual scientists and base policy on actual science. Yeah, this requires people to vote for science based policy, something that work well for democracies in the EU.
That the base of it for sure but as to what you, the man on the ground can do, her message is to vote as you've pointed out. So, where are we now, are you agreeing or disagreeing with me ?

Quote:
Since she isn't a pro-freedom, pro-democracy advocate it's disingenuous to blame her for the flawed US democracy that prevent voting from being a viable path in the US or China.
Who's blaming her for the flawed US democracy ? She's the one who picked "vote" as her message. Not tech, not cutting down, but the political solution where John Q Public only needs to spend a few hours acting on climate change. Well, there's always revolution I suppose.

China is not part of the Thunberg equation, we've covered this before.

Quote:
Only because they are subsidized by socializing the resulting damage or just outright dumping those costs on others. It's no secret that this type of thing will distort markets and create demand that wouldn't normally exist in a competitive undistorted marketplace.
Yes, people want whats available and the best lifestyle possible. We're not being sold this best possible lifestyle and buying into it against our will. We want status, we want luxury, we want experiences and I'd much rather see people educating themselves and judging whether the externalities generated by those wants really justify those wants than call for an authoritarian government to come in and ban the **** out of everything ( or make it so only the rich can afford them ).

Quote:
People like free stuff, even when it means someone else needs to pay the bill. Make them pay their own bill and the story tends to change.
Agreed.
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Old 7th April 2021, 12:23 PM   #2208
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
Who's blaming her for the flawed US democracy ? She's the one who picked "vote" as her message. Not tech, not cutting down, but the political solution where John Q Public only needs to spend a few hours acting on climate change. Well, there's always revolution I suppose.
The more I think about it, the more I think that maybe "vote!" is the worst possible approach to this.

If you get people to change their lifestyles and their expectations, they'll have no problem figuring out who and what to vote for, to enable their preferences in government. And the people they vote for will have no problem figuring out what to do to get re-elected.

"Vote" boils down to voting for someone who pays lip service to the idea in order to get elected, and then just going back to whatever you were doing before. Nobody's going to vote to have lifestyle they're living be abolished.

"Change your lifestyle" is what's going to make the real difference.

Speaking of politicians paying lip service to climate change policy, it's probably worth noting that Thunberg's biggest champions are UN organizations made up primarily of unelected officials.
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Old 7th April 2021, 12:45 PM   #2209
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"Vote" is the easiest sell for sure, it absolves consumers of any guilt or responsibility for the pollution that their lifestyles generate and shifts the blame squarely onto government ( and corporations ).

It's by far the safest route to go for activists, especially appeal to emotion anger-driven activists because pretty much nobody want's to be harangued for their two weeks in mexico or their choice to endure a long commute in order to have a better house.

I'm guessing Thunberg has figured out the game by now. She's a smart girl and has to know that most of her supporters U.N. types included view her as not much more than a photo-op
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Old 7th April 2021, 01:21 PM   #2210
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Quote:
Make them pay their own bill and the story tends to change.
That's a great idea.

How does it work?
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Old 7th April 2021, 02:39 PM   #2211
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Have we covered off the Greta Thunberg statue erected by Winchester University (an extremely low-ranked university) in the UK - at a cost of £24,000?

Quite apart from it looking a little bit eerie, the university - ironically - chose to make it in bronze, the smelting process of which is seriously environmentally harmful, producing wastewater & slag, and releasing toxic metals from copper, silver, and iron to cobalt and selenium into the atmosphere. Bronze smelters also release gaseous sulphur dioxide, contributing to acid rain. Greta would have thoroughly approved!

They could always have commissioned it in stone, or copper-clad steel framing, or some other low-environmental-impact process....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-englan...shire-56565683
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Old 7th April 2021, 06:31 PM   #2212
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
She's a smart girl...
A smart woman.
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Old 7th April 2021, 06:49 PM   #2213
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
That's why I’m very proud to be autistic.
I'm not dissing her... but that's like proud to be born in a specific country or to be left-handed. It rings weird to me.
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Old 7th April 2021, 06:57 PM   #2214
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I'm not dissing her... but that's like proud to be born in a specific country or to be left-handed. It rings weird to me.
People take pride in different things. There are plenty of people who state quite plainly that they are proud to be American.
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Old 8th April 2021, 10:45 AM   #2215
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
That's a great idea.

How does it work?
A carbon tax is the most straightforward way. Cap-and-trade is the libertarian alternative, and has worked in the past for things like CFC emissions.
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Old 8th April 2021, 11:30 AM   #2216
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Which country are you thinking about where the voters would approve a carbon tax?
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Old 8th April 2021, 03:09 PM   #2217
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I've been paying a massive carbon tax since 2008.

Why every time my crew fills up my yacht my accountant tells me how much I paid in carbon tax and we high five each other over how much I'm contributing to saving the planet and averting the climate change doomsday. Then I have my people go brag about it on my Facebook page. "You've gotta burn carbon to save carbon" is what I always say and my stewards ( former Victoria's Secret models ) all clap their hands in agreement.

Speaking of yachts.

The sailboat that brought Greta Thunberg speeding across the Atlantic is on the market. I should pick that up, it would be a nice thing to have onboard thought I might have to park one of the helicopters on land to make room for it.

https://www.bernard-gallay.com/news-...sting-for-sale
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Old 8th April 2021, 05:01 PM   #2218
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Too late..

Quote:
[UPDATE 22th February 2021 : MALIZIA has been withdrawn from the market]
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Old 8th April 2021, 06:42 PM   #2219
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I'm not dissing her... but that's like proud to be born in a specific country or to be left-handed. It rings weird to me.
Why is that? I think it makes sense that she would want a core part of her identity to be viewed as a positive instead of a negative.
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Old 8th April 2021, 06:46 PM   #2220
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Originally Posted by dirtywick View Post
Why is that? I think it makes sense that she would want a core part of her identity to be viewed as a positive instead of a negative.
Finding something positive in life's setbacks is a healthy skill and a good message.

Telling people "good news! You're autistic, just like Einstein!" is going to be powerfully demoralizing to everyone who ends up struggling with autism and doesn't become anything like Einstein.
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Old 8th April 2021, 06:46 PM   #2221
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
Which country are you thinking about where the voters would approve a carbon tax?
Australia had a carbon tax for a while. A short while. It was repealed by Tony Abbott.
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Old 8th April 2021, 06:56 PM   #2222
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Finding something positive in life's setbacks is a healthy skill and a good message.

Telling people "good news! You're autistic, just like Einstein!" is going to be powerfully demoralizing to everyone who ends up struggling with autism and doesn't become anything like Einstein.
Maybe, but not as demoralizing as hearing "you suck, you're autisic"
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Old 8th April 2021, 07:55 PM   #2223
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We need to be very careful about how we describe autism, and remember that it is a spectrum, and incorporates a number of neurodevelopmental conditions.

Severe autism can indeed be physically and socially disabling. Greta doesn't have that. She has Asperger Syndrome, which does not have the same impairment of language and intelligence that other Autism Spectrum Disorders do. Asperger Syndrome is no more a "setback" than baldness is. And from the conversations I have had with people with Asperger, there are certain aspects of it that can be quite advantageous - the ability to focus on a task, for example. They certainly don't consider it a "setback" except for the unwarranted social stigma it carries (like when people consider it a "setback").
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Old 8th April 2021, 09:04 PM   #2224
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Originally Posted by dirtywick View Post
Maybe, but not as demoralizing as hearing "you suck, you're autisic"
Porque nem um dos dois?
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Old 9th April 2021, 08:23 AM   #2225
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
Too late..
Bummer....Anyways, my engineering department informs me that the infrastructure required to host such a tender on board would ruin the aesthetics of the yacht.

So where are we now with the Greta Thunberg action plan ?

No signs of the revolution on the immediate horizon so I say we grab the bull by the horns and continue on with this whole carbon taxing scheme and tax the hell out of people occupying too much living space.

What do you figure is fair ? 300 square feet/person and anything over that is taxed at 25X the local property tax rate ?

6 Years, 266 Days left.
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Old 9th April 2021, 08:51 AM   #2226
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Originally Posted by dirtywick View Post
Maybe, but not as demoralizing as hearing "you suck, you're autisic"

Do you think that happens a lot?
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Old 9th April 2021, 08:55 AM   #2227
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
Do you think that happens a lot?
I think they are exposed to a lot of abuse and ostracism, particularly online and in school. I think they hear more of that than being told they could be Einstein and then being disappointed when they are not.
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Old 9th April 2021, 08:57 AM   #2228
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
Which country are you thinking about where the voters would approve a carbon tax?
Goalpost shift noted. I didn't limit the options to just a carbon tax, I explicitly mentioned the cap and trade option and I'll add that simply using regulation to prohibit CO2 emissions is also an option.

Since memory issue seem to be preventing you for actually following the conversation you are engaged in I'll also reiterate what I said yesterday. Any functioning democracy should be expected to vote for actions on climate change so long as there are compelling advocates for the scientific evidence. In flailing and flawed democracies promises of free stuff, false facts and outright ignorance or opposition to science could and likely would produce different results.
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Old 9th April 2021, 09:11 AM   #2229
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Australia had a carbon tax for a while. A short while. It was repealed by Tony Abbott.
Whether it be a carbon tax or comparable measures that reduce CO2 emissions, Greta's home country and to a lesser extent the EU in general has done a better job than most of the world on meeting it's CO2 emission targets. It certainly seems reasonable to suggest that advocates like Greta keeping attention on the science and on the issue in general has played a significant role in this.

Globally, however, lack of scientific literacy and failing or non-existent democracy in the other 2 largest CO2 emitters (China and the US) is going to limit what someone like Greta can accomplish globally. Fixing democracy and fixing scientific literacy in those countries should be coming from their own advocates for democracy, education, etc.
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Old 9th April 2021, 09:19 AM   #2230
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
Do you think that happens a lot?
Yes, I do think it happens a lot. I have a cousin with moderate to severe Aspersers and I've seen what she has to live with on daily basis as a result. People with ASD doesn't know when they are being looked down on or excluded due to the symptoms of their disorder.
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Old 9th April 2021, 10:56 AM   #2231
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I worked for Goodwill Industries for a while at a sorting center. They are specifically geared toward making jobs for those with special needs.
They also had positions where those people didn't work because productivity was key, and the work had to be done effectively or certian dangers were involved. A clear difference in the crews of different areas.

Done by a entity that promotes itself as helpful to special needs people.

The staff at the stores was also distinct in the full time help was moms, middle aged women, their helpers were an army of part time people doing limited hours and limited days.
It worked well. Discrimination was an integral part of a well established system making sure each job was covered by someone whom was apt for it.
Even in that microcosm of society equality was a fantasy. I wouldn't be chosen to manage a store nor work in one. I could load trucks, run sorting lines or forklifts, even bale up worn clothing not apt for resale.
The world is unfair. It always will be.
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Old 9th April 2021, 11:19 AM   #2232
Skeptical Greg
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Quote:
The world is unfair. It always will be.
Some people don't seem to get that..

I wonder why is it we don't Have a United Federation of Planets, where there is no discrimination..

Instead, we have countless laws against discrimination, and we are always looking for a new law to take care of a new group that is being discriminated against..

When was the last time a law stopped a bigot from being a bigot..

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Old 9th April 2021, 12:28 PM   #2233
Hlafordlaes
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
... When was the last time a law stopped a bigot from being a bigot...
From being one, no. From acting as one, on the odd ocassion, yes. Lawsuits have been won for gender and racial discrimination, for example. Why, then, call them futile, unless...
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Old 9th April 2021, 01:13 PM   #2234
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..On the odd occasion..

There is hope..
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Old 9th April 2021, 04:40 PM   #2235
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This just in....

Geta Thunberg boycotting COP26 because the people who attended her rallies and catapulted her to fame are hogging all the vaccine.

Shame and more shame on you, white people.

Originally Posted by Greta Thunberg
Right now many countries are vaccinating healthy young people, often at the expense of risk groups and front line workers (mainly from global south, as usual …)."

She continued: “Inequality and climate injustice is already the heart of the climate crisis. If people can’t be vaccinated and travel to be represented equally that’s undemocratic and would worsen the problem.”
Normally, I'd be saying "screw COP26, hold the damn thing virtually and save all the travel carbon" but apparently there's a problem with that now.

Originally Posted by Greta Again
“A digital solution is of course far from optimal,” Thunberg tweeted Friday, regarding the possibility that the conference could be partially or fully moved online. “High speed Internet connection and access to computers is extremely unequal in the world. In that case we would lack representation from those whose voices need to be heard the most when it comes to the climate crisis.”
Which raises the question on just how we're supposed to do that when our policy makers cant communicate their plans for vaccinating the world's poor and giving them high speed internet and computers. We voted, like she told us to. What does she expect us to do now ?

Originally Posted by You Know Who
“We don’t have to wait for conferences nor anyone or anything else to dramatically start reducing our emissions.”
Many questions

Much confusion
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Old 9th April 2021, 05:09 PM   #2236
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Have we covered off the Greta Thunberg statue erected by Winchester University (an extremely low-ranked university) in the UK - at a cost of £24,000?

Quite apart from it looking a little bit eerie, the university - ironically - chose to make it in bronze, the smelting process of which is seriously environmentally harmful, producing wastewater & slag, and releasing toxic metals from copper, silver, and iron to cobalt and selenium into the atmosphere. Bronze smelters also release gaseous sulphur dioxide, contributing to acid rain. Greta would have thoroughly approved!

They could always have commissioned it in stone, or copper-clad steel framing, or some other low-environmental-impact process....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-englan...shire-56565683
Makes her look like an old woman. Too bad they didn't make a statue like the photo in the article where she's huddled on the ground with a big raincoat and her sign.
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Old 9th April 2021, 05:47 PM   #2237
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I categorize it alongside things like deaf people who want their children to be deaf, so that they can preserve and perpetuate "deaf culture".
That may arguably be a problem where there's an option to make a deaf child not-deaf, or to prevent a child from being born deaf, and the parents refuse to take the option for those reasons.

But - again - there's nothing you can do about being autistic. You can't prevent it, and if you have it, you can't "treat" or cure it. Her celebrating both her normalities and abnormalities can't possibly encourage non-autistic people to "try to get autism", or discourage autistic people from seeking "treatment" when none exists. So what makes it irresponsibility? What responsibility do you feel she is shirking?
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Old 9th April 2021, 05:59 PM   #2238
theprestige
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Have we covered off the Greta Thunberg statue erected by Winchester University (an extremely low-ranked university) in the UK - at a cost of £24,000?

Quite apart from it looking a little bit eerie, the university - ironically - chose to make it in bronze, the smelting process of which is seriously environmentally harmful, producing wastewater & slag, and releasing toxic metals from copper, silver, and iron to cobalt and selenium into the atmosphere. Bronze smelters also release gaseous sulphur dioxide, contributing to acid rain. Greta would have thoroughly approved!

They could always have commissioned it in stone, or copper-clad steel framing, or some other low-environmental-impact process....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-englan...shire-56565683
Or just donated to a worthy cause in her name. Or started up a lifestyle-reduction drive on campus.

Honestly if they started a culture of frugal living and minimalist consumption on campus, that would have been pretty big. The kind of thing that could really catch on. If flygskam could catch on, why not?
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Old 9th April 2021, 08:19 PM   #2239
8enotto
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
This just in....

Geta Thunberg boycotting COP26 because the people who attended her rallies and catapulted her to fame are hogging all the vaccine.

Shame and more shame on you, white people.



Normally, I'd be saying "screw COP26, hold the damn thing virtually and save all the travel carbon" but apparently there's a problem with that now.



Which raises the question on just how we're supposed to do that when our policy makers cant communicate their plans for vaccinating the world's poor and giving them high speed internet and computers. We voted, like she told us to. What does she expect us to do now ?



Many questions

Much confusion
After COP25 she was basically a photo op, a year later changes in fuels allowed to be used in Europe and guidelines for future vehicles are going to happen.

Other places went backwards too but some good did come of it. Now with 26 upon us and the US back onboard I at least have hopes for marked changes to come. Greta being there making huge, impossible demands or not won't matter.

It should go on even with uneven representation as it covers the most prolific consumers. Live or virtual, let them decide.

The rest of the world gets the changes later whether they want them or not. Old stuff wears out and new replaces sooner or later.

The vaccine thing is a sticky wicket with no easy solutions. If anyone is free to criticize they are also free to offer solutions that might get it to less priveledged areas too.
Right now it's a question of supply and demand with money doing the talking to get limited supplies.
At least in Mexico it seems the more questionable versions are getting to the old and the poor, where better versions reach others and gov officials.
Inequality but it all adds up to people getting vaccinated. Maybe it will be enough to make a difference anyway.
S. America nations seem to be quite active in getting the vaccine now, it's been all over the news anyway.
I don't know the sources Greta has available but I see it happening.


No reason to lose hope on humanity yet. We may be slow learners as a species but we still move into the future.
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Old 11th April 2021, 06:07 PM   #2240
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Here are a couple of things that might help people understand Asperger's. The first is by Kyle Hill, a well established science and technology-based YouTuber, telling the story of his diagnosis and how it has affected his life. He actually titles this video "Autism Is My Superpower". It's 16:55 of talking head.

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The other is a recent episode of the Skeptic with a K podcast, in which host Mike Hall tells the story of his diagnosis and how it has affected his life. It's much longer, but apart from the banter at the beginning, the testimony only takes half the show. But you should listen to the rest anyway because it's a good show.
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